I'm not sure of the exact title of this, but what about a horse-breeder's guild? GM loves the cavalry, and by extension horses, so I could see some sort of seal of approval on horses.
Probably nothing as chaotic as the process for registering purebred dogs. And something akin to "USDA Grade A" is... disturbing. But a guild that monitors breeder quality and quantity could develop in GM. Something along the lines of Consumer Reports' reviews of automobiles.
I think that would definitely add flavor to the campaign. "This is Lightning. She's from the Brigham Stables, rated five stars by the Gran March Equestrian Guild since 552CY." A rating system would also be easy to translate into prices; players could buy a higher quality mount based on the GMEG rating.
Breeders would pay guild dues, as doing so would produce additional revenue if the guild recommends their stables. And breeders who did not appear on the GMEG rosters could be viewed as not-quite reputable. Another reason to pay guild dues; it finances "inspectors" to visit your stables, keeping you on the rosters. Dropping off the GMEG's rosters could be akin to being blacklisted.
And serious horse buyers would have to purchase the GMEG annual roster. For a modest fee, of course...
I think GM is the right size and mentality for a guild like this. In a larger nation, the guild would be too decentralized to have any meaning. In a less structured nation, the "seal of approval" or rating wouldn't carry any weight. _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
Here is a list of Guilds from the Players Guild to Greyhawk. These are the ones it says are in Greyhawk City.
Guild of Apothecaries and Herbalists
Guild of Architects and Stonemasons
Guild of Assassins
Guild of Bakers, Cooks and Millerstt
Guild of Barbers and Dentists
Union of Beggars
United Guild of Blacksmiths, Armorers, Shieldmakers and Ironworkers
Guild of Butchers
Guild of Carpenters, Furniture makers and Barrel makers?
Guild of Cartographers
Guild of Clothworkers
Union of Dockers and Wharfmen
Alliance of Drovers, Teamsters and Overland Freighters
Guild of Embalmers and Gravediggers
Guild of Gladiators, Wrestlers and Professional Combatants"
Guild of Goldsmiths and Silversmiths?
Union of Couriers and Messengers**
Association of Rafters, Freighters and Bargemen of the Selintan**
Guild of Jewelers and Gemcutters
Union of Laborers
Guild of Lamplighters
Guild of Lawyers, Scribes and Accountants
Guild of Leatherworkers and Tanners
Guild of Locksmths**
Union of Lumbermen and Woodcutters**
Guild of Mercenaries
Union of Merchants and Traders
Allied Brotherhood of Miners and quarrier
Guild of Mintworkers
Union of Moneychangers and Pawnbrokers
Guild of Nightwatchmen
Guild of Ostlers and Brewers
Guild of Performing Artistes
Union of Sages and Academics
Union of Sewermen and Streetdeanem
Federation of Smiths of Pragmatic Metals and Alloys
Guild of Thieves'
Guild of Translators
Guild of Weaponsmithsf
Guild of Wizards
I will post a list of Guilds from CSotIO. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
Ivor, that is very useful as a base, though I think we will have fewer guilds being less of a commercial center than the City of Greyhawk. Here are the ones that I think most useful, but we need to work on the names.
Union of Cloth Merchants and Traders
Guild of Dyers, Apothecaries and Herbalists
Guild of Architects and Stonemasons
Guild of Blacksmiths, Armorers, Shieldmakers and Ironworkers
Guild of Carpenters, Furniture makers and Barrel makers?
Guild of Cartographers - Headed By the Esteemed Yabusama
Alliance of Drovers, Teamsters and Overland Freighters
Guild of Goldsmiths and Silversmiths
Association of Rafters, Freighters and Bargemen
Guild of Leatherworkers and Tanners
Union of Lumbermen and Woodcutters
Guild of Vintners and Brewers
Union of Sages and Academics
Guild of Weaponsmiths
I think GM would really like the Idea of Guilds as they are such an orderly people.
I agree totally. I think the list is too long and there may be one we need to change or disregard. Culturalize the names but like Hammar keep it simple.
I just happen to see your post at the same time I was reading the PGtGH.
I will also post a another list with the guild listed in the City State of the Overlord which will give more ideas but will still need to be changed. to Gran march the ones chosen.
BTW City State of the Overlord is a great resource for anyone building a city.
No aqeducts mind you _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
Depending on how Anced wants to deal with the discussions we have been having regarding Shiboleth over on the city names forum, I think it would be good to have a small Bakune guild vertically integrated to deal with the red silk.
Here is another list of guilds which you have Anced in the A Magical Medieval City Guide and I used to create the break down of occupations. I think I sent you that spread sheet. If anyone else want is I can sent it to them. In medieval times each of these would have some form of a guild.
Architect
Engineer
Armour
Locksmith
Artists
Painters
Satirists
Sculptors
Writers
Bakers
Pastry Makers
Bookbinders
Booksellers
Paper/Parchmentmakers
Bowyers & Fletchers
Brewers
Distillers
Vintner
Bathers
Brothel Keepers
Carpenters
Plasterers
Roofers
Butchers
Bellmakers
Engravers
Goldsmiths
Silversmiths
Chandlers
Soapmakers
Bricklayers
Masons
Potters
Tilers
Copyists
Illuminators
Girdlers
Glove Makers
Mercers
Perfumer
Purse Makers
Tailors
Vestment Makers
Cobblers
Leatherworkers
Bleachers
Drapers
Dye Makers
Fullers
Rug Makers
Weavers
Bankers
Moneychangers
Pawnbroker
Tax Collectors
Fishers
Fishmongers
Blacksmiths
Buckle Makers
Cutlers
Scabbard Makers
Weaponsmiths, Master
Weaponsmiths
Furriers
Glass Makers
Glaziers
Harness Makers
Saddlers and Spurriers
Inn Keepers
Restauranteurs
Tavern Keepers
Goldsmiths
Jewelers
Silversmiths
Launderers
Alchemists
Astrologers
Magic Merchants
Potionmakers
Cartographers
Navigators/Pathfinders
Naval Outfitters
Rope Makers
Barbers
Dentists
Doctors, Unlicensed
Herbalists
Midwives
Beer Merchants
Booksellers
Clothiers, Used
Dairy sellers
Flowersellers
Grain Merchants
Grocers
Haberdashers
Hay Merchants
Livestock merchants
Magic Merchants
Millers
Perfumer
Religious Souvenir Sellers
Slavers
Spice Merchants
Tobacco merchants
Wine Merchants
Woodsellers
Wool Merchants
Acrobats, Tumblers
Instrument Makers
Jesters
Jongleurs
Minstrels
Storytellers
Advocates (lawyers)
Doctors, Licensed
Judges
Librarians
Professors
Teachers
Scholastic Historians
Sage/scholar
Shipmakers
Leatherworkers
Skinners
Tanners
Taxidermists
Grooms
Clock Makers
Inventors
Toymakers
Watercarriers
Wheelwrights
Basket Makers
Furniture Makers
Furniture Makers
Woodcarvers _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I think it would be good to have a small Bakune guild vertically integrated to deal with the red silk.
Wolfshire I think this is a good idea. In Hookhill I have a Bazaar ground which allows foreign Merchants and even Baklunish merchants with proper papers to show their more exotic wares then the average market would have. The Bazaars coincide with Military games and festivals. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
Due to the history of the Knights and the Baklunish, I would think it unlikely that Bakluni merchants will get papers, rather, I see Hookhill getting bypassed all togeather and either Shiboleth merchants exporting directly to the West, or having a proxy market in Thornward.
For the Shiboleth Red Silk, there are several teleportation events each year, to avoid the risk of the long journey to Zeif. This is a magic world after all, and that is a long way to take such a delicate cargo.
Due to the history of the Knights and the Baklunish, I would think it unlikely that Bakluni merchants will get papers, rather, I see Hookhill getting bypassed all togeather and either Shiboleth merchants exporting directly to the West, or having a proxy market in Thornward.
Though I agree that the Baklunish are not well like by the KoW and many of GM and despite this climate, as you have suggested in your population distribution, there are still Baklunish in GM so I am suggesting that Baklunish can have a trading guild and small one. After all merchants are merchants and if someone has a desired product then that over rides political concerns (China in our world).
Hookhill is the Capital of Gran March. It is that alone that Shiboleth nobles will want to show off their fine cloth and clothes to upstage the other nobles. Second a number of nobles and representative of other lands would be going to Hookhill on business with the Government. I believe that the merchants of the silk trade would want to tap into that market.
Thornward would be a major market for many Gran March merchants in Gran March district.
Third thing is Lord Lyndus the head of GM's information system (spies).
He wants Baklunish trading guild so he can plant spies into the groups and learn about what going in Ket and other Western lands. Since he has the ear of the Commandant he has convinced him to allow Baklunish traders so he could plant spies within them. They would have to have papers and be thoroughly questioned by Zilchus inquisitors. Lord Lyndus expects these traders to be poorly treated especially by the Knights and does nothing to change this to maintain the spies secrecy. Because they would travel to Hookhill and Shiboleth it would allow the spies to hand off information more easily.
Lord Lyndus is a GM nationalist and expansionist and he cares more about Gran March than he does about Knights or even Nobles. His job is a newly created by Magnus Vrianian to keep the surprise attack that happen to Geoff and Bissel from happen again and to protect GM for internal issues as well. This has only been in place since CY 586 and is slowly growing
This would also give the DM using our material another avenue to play out, special for players who may want to play a spy roll.
What do you think? _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
AM- Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:56 am in The ARMY: “They are LAWFUL good or Neutral, … Marchers are people of pomp and circumstance ... they love a parade... honor their ancestors... herald their leaders”
So a bunch of militaristic nationalists are going to be goose stepping about shouting at pseudo-semites “Show me your papers!” and “Heil Commandant!”
Do the silk traders have to openly wear a patch of the Spindle of Istus? That seems to fit.
I don’t think you can or should get around GH or GM being racist, but there should be something to counter it and tip the balance back in the direction of the good side of lawful. But who in GM is going to speak up for the poor mistreated Balkuni?
Well, racism is the cross that the KoW seem to bear, and even before them, the Knights of the March. Rather than racism, though, it seems to be a simple general seething anger they aim at their "enemy," after all, the Flan were the target before the Bakluni.
As to who is the counter? I suggest the same counter weight that exists in our own society... the Army... It is far bigger, and IMO, has a far more indelible affect on the social mores of GM than the KoW. The difference, for example, between say public schools and celebrities.
Most people think the Knights (read celebrities) influence our youth, and they do to some extent. However, the time spent in the Army (public schools) is far more influential, if subtle. A school may yield doctors and lawyers, or bums and hoodlums. They may all wear sports jerseys and listen to Madonna, but the school was the influence that made the most difference.
You raise some good points and I want to dress them and make myself more clear.
Quote:
So a bunch of militaristic nationalists are going to be goose stepping about shouting at pseudo-Semites “Show me your papers!” and “Heil Commandant!”
No The nationalist are not a but of Fascist. Remember that Keoland is "allowing" nobles to vote for their commandant. Gran March is not wholly free of Keoland influence though it is weakening. Anced and I have both agree that there is a growing nationalist feeling in Gran March. Just because your are nationalist does not make you a Goose stepper. Papers would be checked at borders and city gates only.
Lord Lyndus is NG and, to make myself clear, the reason he would want the Baklunish guild is so he could have some willing Baklunish of GM more easily infiltrate the those of Ket etc. Lord Lyndus has asked that there be allowed Baklunish traders. These would be from Ket, Zeif and other western nations again so the GM Baklunish can more easily infiltrate. He is himself is not racist but cannot cut anyone any slack as it may blow their cover.
These Baklunish Traders would have to have papers not GM resident Baklunish and of course the spies would have too as well.
Which is more lenient than the US is presently who has those from "questionable counties" have to have special identification papers even if they are citizen of an not questionable country such as Canada.
Yes not all the people of GM are racist but is canon that there is a " near racist" dislike of westerlings by the Watch because they believe they worship the Old one in secret (p 165 LGG I believe). Often when there is a war the home population is whipped into a fervor against the enemy and conversely often it is the soldiers that fight them that have a better idea who the enemy really is as they see that they have similar attributes as themselves. So the GM populace would have some resentment of the Ketties and any who look like them. Not unlike the racial profiling going on today.
In my campaign Lord Lyndus the Knights of Dispatch are specifically all non-racist. I think it important that the players be giving the opportunity to challenge this racism as well.
D&D is full of inherent racism. Orc, Goblins. Gnolls and Hobgoblins are all evil and bad. Drow are Bad. Dwarves do not like Elves and so on. In my campaign I also challenge these believes as well as the idea just because some attacks you should you kill them?
Just because one is good, of lawful does not mean you cannot have misconceptions about things resulting prejudice. Also the world of D&D has tended to be black and white. I want and I believe Anced as well, want to add more grey.
I think the papers are more like passports. A cloth patch is more like what the Nazi did to the Jews because papers were not obvious enough.
I think your points are good about racism are good and it needs to challenged all the times. I am sorry that I was not more clear about Lord Lyndus and his motives. He is not a hawk. He is an expansionist because he believe it would be good if Hochoch became part of Gran March he is not looking to conquer the Sheldomar Valley. He concerned about anything that would cause the region and Gran March to become unstable. He believes it is his duty to protect all the people of Gran March including the Baklunish.
I was thinking thing were the way you both addressed them, but the Fascist imagery was just too vivid to pass up. I still think it is, but that it has to be carefully managed because you don’t want the good guys looking like the bad guys, except a little bit every now and then. Not addressing it could have that effect because all the elements are there in this setting. IMO, that is how to get the grey in the hawk.
While I think AM is correct from a sociological perspective, I would not want to rely on that entirely to avoid the imagery. In addition to other reasons, because socialization will not be 100% effective, particularly if it is undermined by the corrupting effects of the Stain of Vecna. But most importantly, because it might make for a missed opportunity to do as IvorMac suggests, challenge the PC’s with racism. Perhaps socialization can somehow be made manifest in the campaign.
I think the description IvorMac quoted is fairly accurate, including the goose stepping or some other form of pompous parading, which is why a first quoted AM. But sticking all those buzz words together as I did can clearly be misleading. I would not want to do that until the time was right. The patch will reinforce the Fascist image and I think the Spindle really does really work for that in this setting.
So what to do? I do not know if you were planning on doing this for Gazetteer, but I think a plot line or adventure lead section would be good.
There could an old nobility Suel KotW faction LN(E) leaning in the direction of Fascism that has started the Spindle patch, but only only in Shiboleth where there is the greatest concentration of Bakluni. They have a reason - too many Bakluni have been wandering out the their quarter (the ghetto) and they all look the same, but do not have the same right to be out and about as the silk/die Guild members.
Maybe a PC is the subject of the racism, maybe just a witness. Perhaps the PCs have been tasked by Lord Lyndus with countering the extremism without making it too obvious because it is hurting his network, not because it is morally wrong.
Different NPCs and groups could be introduced as variant foils to underline the complexity of the issues where nobody is completely good or evil. How would a Flan see it (At least they are not picking on me)? Army grunts (that is a little rough, but still you have to watch out for those people)? Cotton merchants? (Can’t breath … ;-) )? Clerics of Zilchus/Inessa (I missed out on a deal)?
And again I ask, because I don’t know, who is going to speak up for the poor mistreated Bakluni? The PCs? If it is only the Paladin of Al’Akbar, that in itself will be a sad commentary on the morals of the March. Perhaps, that is a comment that should be made.
Yes I too would completely avoid the Fascist idea in any form. It is not how I see Gran March at all. It is a lawful nation overall with good tendencies.
I also think that we are falling victim to our own stereotype here when we suggest that the Baklunish are interested in or are proprietors of Silk. The Rushmoors and Madder silk worm would have been the since the time of the Flan and likely they were the first to develop the silk and kept it a guild secret as to it development. With the destruction of Fleeth that information died too. Then as Anced has suggested that a Baklunish merchant brought it back.
I would suggest thought that the Baklunish themselves could not have had a silk industry in their present homelands given its latitude and climate is that of Northern Montana of the steppes of Russian but they could have had that industry prior to the Invoked Devastation. Thus their interest and desire to find silk again but silk in not necessarily practical in such a climate. I also refer to the greytalk discussion that Baklunish are not Arabs. I think this is an important distinction. I am suggesting that silk is an ancient Flan art that has only recently been rediscovered. The Suel who are, as the Maure Castle adventure in Dungeon #112 as suggest, highly interested in fine cloth and tapestry and would be eager to learn the art of silk making and are likely the drivers for the industry in the Sheldomar Valley as a whole.
Also Anced has suggested that there 3000 Baklunish in all of Gran March which is about 1% of the population which is a very small amount so lets let the idea of a Baklunish guild die. As long as the Baklunish are contributing to GM society, i.e. their sons become soldiers, that the general populace well tolerate their presence. There will always be those who will not like their presence, as there are those who would not like elves of dwarfs’ presence(who is their champions?). I this feel that it normal to expect some restrictions on merchants from a nations you just had a war. Lord Lyndus has ask that Ket, Zeif, Ekbir and Tusmit caravans to be allowed enter so he can have his volunteer Baklunish spies to join these caravans and spy on the these nations to ensure that the surprise attack from Ket or others cannot happen again. The need for paper would be to travel within Bissell GM and other places. This would be compromise with the Knights, as they would not like their enemy travelling in their lands. Remember that Bissel northern most lands are still controlled by Ket and Thornward is a divided city. So Knight are not happy about the Baklunish caravans more because of their military interests than that of racism at this point.
Thornward would be where travel papers would be issued. Thornward is a city of high political intergue.
As to pomp and ceremony I would liken GM to England with its enjoyment of such things without the negative connotations.
Quote:
And again I ask, because I don’t know, who is going to speak up for the poor mistreated Bakluni? The PCs? If it is only the Paladin of Al’Akbar, that in itself will be a sad commentary on the morals of the March. Perhaps, that is a comment that should be made.
As to the poor mistreated Bakluni I think you may be over stating the issue.
Who is the Champion of the Suel, the Oeridian, the Rhenee, the Dwarves the Elves the Orc the Hobgoblins and on and on the list could go.
The comment is the answer to this question "What happens when the Paladin of Al’Akbar and the Paladin of Hieroneous meet " _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I am going to ask that this be the last post from anyone on the subject of Racism and Goosestepping. This is a thread about Guilds.
That has been covered ad nauseum in other threads on this site and I will answer this now as I answered it then. Any implication that I or any other writer here is racist because they do not run to the defense of supposed slights to some real world group are absurd, and tell more about those who raise the issues. Regardless, this is a forum about a game, and a game set in an imperfect world.
The Suel have a history as presented in Canon which indicates that they were racists. This was several thousand years ago. Since that time they have founded what is possibly the most racially harmonious kingdom in the Flaness, Keoland. Both are true in Canon.
Gran March was founded as a buffer zone, first against the Flan of Vecna, then as a buffer against the Baklunish. The Baklunish have invaded in the past, and invaded recently. The hatred of them is both recent and real in Bissell and to all those who lost sons and daughters in the fight to expell them. I have no intention of "cleansing," this out of the project.
This project was started by Ivor and myself to create a fun, workable campaign setting, in the Flaness, that new and old DMs alike could use. There has been, nor will there be, any attempt to create a resemblance to the Fascists, the Communists, or any other real world group.
As to commentary on the Morals of the March... It is a bad time to be a Baklunish sympathizer... allying one self with Iuz tends to make you unpopular.
This is not the place for commentary about real world issues. I understand that previous authors have utilized descriptions reminiscent of the Nazis. I will not apologize for it nor continue it. Now, let us get back to the March.
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