The only date given to the fall of the City of Summer Stars is Ivid the Undying's note that the oldest of the Wardens who guard the Coldwood today were alive when it happened, and are now nearing the end of their lifespans.
Assuming 1e grey elven lifespans, this could have happened as early as -1,356 CY: 585 (current year) - 2000 (maximum lifespan) -1 (no Common Year 0) + 60 (the elven age of majority - this gives a little breathing room for them to live a little beyond 585 and some to pass on earlier than others).
Because this was written in 2nd edition, and because it references the habit of 2nd edition elves to cross to the afterlife through the Moonarch of the Seldarine rather than actually dying, it might make more sense to put it at -281 CY (585 - 925 - 1 + 60).
The latter date is actually possible, as the Ur-Flannae necromancers still ruled the upper Flanmi River at that period; the Oeridians wouldn't enter it until -175 CY. This is, then, probably the closest we can get right now to a "canon" date (canon in this case meaning as true to the letter and spirit of the source material as possible, following the principle that even as heretics we ought to know what we're contradicting).
However, while the latter date works, I find it personally unsatisfying to put this legendary event after the Great Migrations, as if history only began when the Oeridians entered the Flanaess. Ignoring the issue of how long elves ought to live, does anyone else feel like it should be much earlier?
Last edited by rasgon on Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Well, I think that the Moonarch is irrelevant since part of the story of the guardian elves is that they have abandoned the usual pursuit of elves to be permanent guardians for the place.
Aside from that, I do think it works better if its set farther back. I think the whole place should be more of a mystery than it would be if it was destroyed less than a century before the Oeridians arrived. I think that whole disaster should be a legend even to the Flan living in the surrounding lands.
I also think it would be much better if the event happened far enough back to have had a profound impact on the other elvish communities of the Flanaess without being so raw that it would immediately poison interaction with the migrants.
Well, I think that the Moonarch is irrelevant since part of the story of the guardian elves is that they have abandoned the usual pursuit of elves to be permanent guardians for the place.
That doesn't excuse them from passing into the next world on schedule, though.
Ivid the Undying said this: "Some of these Sentinels are gray elves from the old city itself, which brings them close to the limit of their years. When a Sentinel grows old, and the time comes for him to pass from the world, another takes his place, usually sent by the Silverbow Sages of Lendore."
Well, I admit that I completely skipped the 2e era from a game mechanics point of view. So I've always read that from a "When they got really really old and are too feeble to continue", not something to do with the Moonarch and passing away at a specified time.
Regardless, elf lifespans and related issues have been altered repeatedly so its best to go with what makes the most sense for your campaign. Which, IMC, is earlier rather than later.
The only date given to the fall of the City of Summer Stars is Ivid the Undying's note that the oldest of the Wardens who guard the Coldwood today were alive when it happened, and are now nearing the end of their lifespans.
Assuming 1e grey elven lifespans, this could have happened as early as -1,356 CY: 585 (current year) - 2000 (maximum lifespan) -1 (no Common Year 0) + 60 (the elven age of majority - this gives a little breathing room for them to live a little beyond 585 and some to pass on earlier than others).
FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.
Ah, thank you! That would put it more like -1736 CY, over 300 years before the destruction of Sulm.
The DM of our online campaign sent us to the Coldwood to stop an evil cabal from stealing Hunger.
He populated the forest with undead treants, banshee, and elf wights, some of which were advanced spell-stitched wights. The Sentinels weren't very friendly either!
You might find some inspiration on our website under the section Darnakurian's Doom, although I don't think any of us got bogged down with the dates and the DM still hasn't got around to writing up the part of the story set in the Coldwood, so I suspect it will be of limited use at best.
I'd be quite interested to see what class levels people think the Sentinels should have. I would have thought: Fg4, Wz5, EK5+ depending on how long they've been there?
FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.
Actually, it's 2399: 2000 (Venerable) + 380 (0–19 x 20) + 19 (0–19). (I recently posed a related question in the 1E trivia thread at Dragonsfoot. ) Unfortunately, given that Ivid is a 2E sourcebook, I think we're stuck with the c. –281 CY date.
FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.
Actually, it's 2399: 2000 (Venerable) + 380 (0–19 x 20) + 19 (0–19). (I recently posed a related question in the 1E trivia thread at Dragonsfoot. ) Unfortunately, given that Ivid is a 2E sourcebook, I think we're stuck with the c. –281 CY date.
Edition schmedition. Monks didn't vanish after Fate of Istus - so I don't see why we have to adjust Flanaessi history according to the changing whims of games designers. The Fall of the City of the Summer Stars was long ago - well before the coming of the Oerids and that's allwe need to know.
I am not an edition monger, but I have to agree... it was a long time ago. I dont think those who wrote Ivid, at that time, thought they were changing that. If, in 2e, their age bothers you, assume they had a few potions of youth. It makes more sense than trying to adjust history based on an edition change, particularly one as obscure as elf aging.
Agreed - it should be ancient history well outside the normal life span of 3e elves - although was Darnakurian fighting against Vecna's forces or just the Ur-Flan in general - that might date it a bit better since a number of people have tried to timeline Vecna's history?
It's only 'rumoured' that some of the Sentinels are from the city so perhaps one or two have been using age-reduction magic to extend their lives. It makes far more sense for the disaster tohave happened about 2000 years ago in my view.
The Vecna connection isn't canon. That comes from the OJ1 timeline. I remember having a long discussion with Montand on GTalk about this and eventually having to concede that Vecna was based in the Sheldomar and had nothing really to do with the City of Summer Stars.
Besides, it's more pleasing to have several ancient Ur Flan bogeymen, rather than just one.
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I thought it was notable that Gwydiesin of the Cranes (of the Lone Heath and Grandwood) has recited a verse / song about The Doorway to the Summer Stars (perhaps a way to still reach the city?) and walked in the Vale of Summer Stars (perhaps what is now a demiplane displaced by the Coldwood)?
Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I thought it was notable that Gwydiesin of the Cranes (of the Lone Heath and Grandwood) has recited a verse / song about The Doorway to the Summer Stars (perhaps a way to still reach the city?) and walked in the Vale of Summer Stars (perhaps what is now a demiplane displaced by the Coldwood)?
Just catching up to your comment, Eric, in my quests for 1/ ancient olven kingdoms (and their spans, following on from Sam’s recent post at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9804)*, in an effort to identify locations from which drow may have been driven into the depths (presumably placing drowic vaults in some proximity to the olven surface kingdoms, at least initially); 2/ elvish gate-related magics (pulling from some discord comments Marc/mtg recently made re: Pathfinder, as well as the notes about Mythals in the wiki at https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Elf, which naturally suggest FR, Mythago Wood, and the Forgotten Folio Forest, at https://grodog.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-strange-case-of-the-forgotten-folio-forest.html); and 3/ your comment about the bardic songs of Gwydiesin evoking ideas of a Fading Land as well as striking a resonating chord with The Lost City of the Elders from WG5 (in my mind, at least. Moorcock’s _City of the Autumn Stars_ is another touchpoint; published in 1986, its title likely influenced Sargent’s name for the city, since Ivid was first excerpted in Dragon #204/April 1994).
All of this ties back to my current campaign history, in which we’re exploring the origins of the Oeridian migrations, as well as their ancestral homelands far to the west (as I’m positing them—on the shores of “legends and tales report a veritable [fresh water?] sea far to the west [of the Nyr Dyv]”), and their prophetic drivers eastward toward the Flamni basin as their “promised land” (perhaps).
All of this ties back to my current campaign history, in which we’re exploring the origins of the Oeridian migrations, as well as their ancestral homelands far to the west (as I’m positing them—on the shores of “legends and tales report a veritable [fresh water?] sea far to the west [of the Nyr Dyv]”), and their prophetic drivers eastward toward the Flamni basin as their “promised land” (perhaps).
I baked the Age of Great Sorrow into the prophetic structure of my current campaign, and “The Prophecy of the Six and the Twelve” is the most-recent revelation within the same Oeridian prophetic continuity/history that includes earlier prophecies speaking to the Oeridians’ vision/future/mission/purpose.
Some of this is alluded to in my unpublished OJ#37 article on “The Book of Eyes”.
and
grodog on Scott’s board wrote:
Here’s the relevant text from the second sidebar (the first simply introduces and repeats the text of The Prophecy of the Six and the Twelves from my blog post at grodog.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-prophecy-of-the-six-and-the-twelve.html):
[begin sidebar 2]
Other Famous Prophecies of the Flanaess
Twins feature strongly in Oeridian history, lore, and mythology, and a series of significant prophecies by, from, or about twins (both literally and figuratively) have shaped the history of the Oeridian tribes since before the time of the Great Migrations. Some sages believe that the First Prophecy of the Twins is what triggered the Oeridians’ long march across Oerik and into the Flanaess before the Twin Cataclysms (itself the topic of the Third Prophecy of the Twins).
A short list of significant prophecies, presented in alphabetic order, largely drawn from my personal campaigns unless noted otherwise:
The Advent of Lost Astaroth
Cessations of the Eternal Clarion in the Crawling City
Diminishments of the Dwur (by Naugret the Elder)
The Doom of Fallen Stars
Fall of the House of Rax; or, the Seventh Prophecy of the Twins
Fangs for the Ebon Sun
Five Truths of Tomorrows Entwined
The Halzephonic Utterances
Imminence of the Age of Great Sorrows (by Selvor the Younger)
Incarnum Incarnatations Unleashing the Age of Unreason
March of the Black Ices and the Fimbûl Winter
The Paling (by Thalac Jiwo)
Prophecy of the Phoenix (from the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer)
Rede of the Hopping Horde and the Unmasked Scourge (a prophetic warning from Joyhdee and Daern against Wastri)
Restoration for Sulm’s Lost Lands
Return of the Prince
The Sargonne Prophecies of Bleak Future
Signs of the Herald’s Looming Darknesses (for “The Age of Worms”)
Songs and Scales for the Chromatic Queen
Sooths Unspoken, Unseen, Unsung, and Revealed
Tsunamis of the Savage Tide (for “The Savage Tide”)
The Wyrd of the White Wolf
[/end sidebar 2]
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