Canonfire!

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:53 am THAC0 difference between 1e and 2e

I feel totally foolish for even bringing this up...

...but noticed that the THACOs for creatures are worse in 2e than in 1e tables.

Example: in 1st edition, an ogre (4+1 HD) has a THACO of 15 and a bugbear (3+1 HD) has a THAC0 of 16.
In 2nd edition, they BOTH have a 17!

????

confused why the change,

-Lanthorn

Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:56 am

I can only guess the change was made because the designers of 2nd edition revaluated some of the monsters in the game and readjusted their powers (up or down) based on that. I've mentioned similar observations in the past concerning Demons and Devils between 1st and 2nd editions. For instance several Demons of moderately high power (Babau, Chasme, and Vrocks) have a high (bad) THACO of 13. That's the same THACO a fighter of 5th level with high strength and a maybe a +1 sword would have. However, I don't think a 5th level fighter should really be an equal match in melee against monsters of that magnitude. In that instance the THACO of Demons of such power seems very inaccurate. I'm sure there are numerous other examples of inaccurate THACO out there (like the Ogre, which you mentioned).

Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:01 pm

THAC0 in 1e required a chart to figure out, since it wasn't mathematically determined; note that for many of them, they could hit a series of low ACs all on a 20. In 2e, they made everything a mathematical progression, which smoothed out the progression, but meant that low-HD hit less often, and high-HD creatures hitting more often. If you look at the charts, there are odd jumps; 1 HD hit with a 19, 1+ HD creatures hit with an 18, but 2-3+ hit with a 16, and then 4-5+ hit with a 15. This usually made monsters much more likely to hit fighters in 1e than fighters could hit the monsters, given the same HD and AC.

Also, fighters advanced 2 points of THAC0 every 2 levels, rather than 1 per level. A 3 HD monster hits AC 0 with a 16, a a level 3 fighter hits on an 18 in 1e; 2e it's a 17 and 18 respectively.

Jeff