I broached this topic Thursday in Greytalk, but would like some more opions.
What in the nine hells is going to happen to Furyondy after Belvor is either dead or loses his wits or gets too sick to rule the realm. Who will succed him w/out Thrommel in the picture?
Well, in our home campaign, we played RttToEE, and we freed the vampiric Thrommel from the clutches of Tharizdun/Elder Elemental Eye. I DM'd this for our group, and I gave Fragarach the ability to restore Thrommel to life, after being slain as a vampire. He then went back to Furyondy, but stayed in hiding until he could convince enough of those whom he had known before being captured (assorted nobles and Knights of the Hart whom he had grown up with) that he was the true Thrommel, since he had learned that an insane man had been burned at the stake for making a similar claim (per the LGG).
Count Artur Jakarati(sp) of the County of Crystalreach will become king after a brief period of civil unrest. Search for "Furyondy" (to the left of your screen). Someone wrote a cool article on the topic. Long live King Artur!
Thrommel is dead, undead and destroyed. His legacy, however, lives on. Sometime this week, Literature in the Flanaess: The Thrommel Cycle will publish on the home page and will reveal the power of the Myth of Prince Thrommel in all its glory. Thrommel - The Once and Future King (Who Never Was and Never Will Be). _________________ GVD
Now I don't know the Furyondy section of The Marklands as well as I should, I haven't been following the developments in LG Furyondy at all and I'm well out of my area of prime interest (ie anywhere east of the Nyr Dyv) - so take this answer with a hefty pinch of salt.
My take on it is this one of two things happen:
1: Thrommel returns - but as a vampire (obviously with the requsite proofs and also with the requsite magics to hide his condition). Under his rule, the Black Brotherhood and other servents of Tharizdun gain a toehold in the court and governance of Furyondy, corrupting some key members of the Great Houses. Citing the need to protect the realm against the evil of Iuz, Thrommel enacts decrees to expand his powers. Opponents of the king begin to disappear or suffer unfortunate accident. Fearful rumours begin to circulate Chendl about the king's nocturnal habits. Eventually, Thrommel (called the Black by later annalists), is unmasked and after a palace coup is slain by worthy and pious patriots of Furyondy (read PCs).
In reaction to Thrommel's bid for power, the Great Houses decide to limit the powers of the king, effectively making him a puppet to their whims and agendas. A distant (and pliable) cousin is found among the nobility. Over the following decades, Furyondy sees a succession of weak kings and slips into something like Keoland's Slumbering (aided by the continuing disintegration of Iuz's empire on the Oerth).
OR
2: If Thrommel is destroyed, when Belvor dies - there is a short succession crisis. The Great Houses decide to weaken the powers of the king and after a lot of horse trading, put one of their puppets on the throne - someone who'll look to their needs and not spend all their money on crusades or those eternally whining marcher nobles in the north. Furyondy goes straight into the Slumbering described above.
Though it'd take a lot of mojo for a vampire to get crowned king of Furyondy (especially with all those priests and paladins knocking about), I think it'd be cool to have a Black King of Furyondy for a while - it'd make for a great series of adventures...
Thrommel is dead, undead and destroyed. His legacy, however, lives on. Sometime this week, Literature in the Flanaess: The Thrommel Cycle will publish on the home page and will reveal the power of the Myth of Prince Thrommel in all its glory. Thrommel - The Once and Future King (Who Never Was and Never Will Be).
No matter how many smiley faces you put on it, Thrommel as a campaign hook is neither dead (or undead in that paticular case) or resolved. Its a shame that in your example that he is just simply shelved and set aside so neatly. To set in stone what happened to Thrommel during or after his imprisonment in the ToEE is too good of a campaign hook to just throw to the wayside. What would be worthwhile is to see what others have done in the many home/LGH campaigns with Thrommel in either his living or unliving reappearence inside of Furyondy and the turmoils that would result from it. For what its worth Thrommel was recovered in my home campaign running of the ToEE in CY 584, and has since been a large factor in Furyondian politics and a leader in the GH Wars, but thats another spin on the Missing Prince, who knows what else people have done with that simple hook and the changes that have been made incorporating home 'canon' into the official timeline.
Now thats kewl! _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
No matter how many smiley faces you put on it, Thrommel as a campaign hook is neither dead (or undead in that paticular case) or resolved. Its a shame that in your example that he is just simply shelved and set aside so neatly. To set in stone what happened to Thrommel during or after his imprisonment in the ToEE is too good of a campaign hook to just throw to the wayside. What would be worthwhile is to see what others have done in the many home/LGH campaigns with Thrommel in either his living or unliving reappearence inside of Furyondy and the turmoils that would result from it.
The Thrommel Cycle article will make clear what I have done with Thrommel IMC. In short, I have immortalized him as a mythologized figure, who has had more influence after his death/undeath/destruction on Furyondy and the Flanaess than any other recent historical figure. Wait and read the article, then decide if Thrommel has been "simply shelved and set aside so neatly."
IMO, Thrommel works in one of two ways.
First, he can variously "come back" but having then "come back," his mystery and cachet are diminished as he becomes just another ruler. This is so whether or not he would then unify Furyondy and Veluna into a new superstate - a good aligned Great Kingdom west. This is so whether or not he "comes back" as a vampire or with his humanity restored. Once "back," Thrommel's mystery and cachet as the "lost prince" are gone because he would be, by definition, no longer "lost" but rather "found." While a returned Thrommel might make for an adventure or three, eventually, he would become either just another ruler or a temporary one.
Second, and alternatively, Thrommel can remain "missing." He went missing in the first place to good effect - the mystery of his fate intrigued. As if this needed to be emphasized, we are talking about his fate still. The difficulty with "missing" Thrommel is that he can never effectively pay off the suspense and mystery of his being "missing." If he returns, see above. If his fate simply remains "unknown," it is an endless tease, although speculation would then continue.
I have chosen a third path - one which preserves the mystery but one which also pays it off by seeing the _idea_ of Thrommel become "real" in peoples minds to a pronounced and noticeable effect. In this way, I have my cake and eat it too.
In anticipation of my Thrommel Cycle article being loaded to the frontpage, I present a version of my Thrommel Cycle hereinafter:
***Begin Text***
The Thrommel Cycle
by Glenn Vincent Dammerung (aka GVDammerung)
Whatever the political consequences of the Common Year 573, this year marks the generally accepted boundary between early and modern literature in the Flanaess. In 573 CY, Prince Thrommel, son of King Belvor and heir to the throne of Furyondy, disappeared just prior to his scheduled marriage to Jolene of Veluna, daughter of the Plar. The marriage, had it been concluded, would have united the Kingdom of Furyondy with the Arch-Clericy of Veluna. Prince Thrommel would have reigned as King and Provost. Such, however, did not occur and it has been divined that Prince Thrommel is dead, although his body has never been recovered.
To understand why the disappearance of Prince Thrommel marks such a literary watershed, it is necessary to understand who the Prince was, the life he lead and the impact of his death on the general imagination.
Prince Thrommel was a dashing figure and a worthy heir to the throne of Furyondy. His fame was never greater than when he distinguished himself in 569 CY at the Battle of Emridy Meadows. Leading assembled hosts from Furyondy, Veluna and lesser states, Prince Thrommel took to the field to defeat the the Horde of Elemental Evil. The day belonged to him and his fame was instantly assured. All anticipated that he would realize the dream of a united Furyondy and Veluna committed to the cause of weal.
This anticipation was, of course, fostered by the announced nuptials that would see Prince Thrommel wed the daughter of the Plar of Veluna, Jolene, uniting the twin champions of all that seemed good and bright. Jolene was herself a figure of great repute. Of surpassing beauty and intelligence, Jolene’s fame was wide spread. Many had sought her hand but only Prince Thrommel had succeeded in winning it. Critically, the marriage of Thrommel and Jolene was not merely to be a political matter; it was also a love match. The idealized prince, the Hero of Emridy Meadows, had found his idolized princess to be in the ravishing Jolene. Or so the bards and an avid public would have it.
Other forces, however, conspired to tear the lovers asunder. While it remains a matter open to some doubt, it is variously said that fell Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood or some great undying lord abducted and did away with the young Prince, breaking Jolene’s heart and dashing the hopes of those who imagined a fairytale wedding and the rise of a new power in the West. The impact of the Prince’s disappearance and the subsequent conformation of his death shattered the hopes and dreams of two realms with political repercussions across the Flanaess. Prince Thrommel and Jolene became epically tragic figures and fodder for bards and poets.
In the public imagination, then, Prince Thrommel and Jolene were perfect lovers, he strong, handsome and victorious, she beautiful, intelligent and full of grace, torn apart by sinister forces that destroyed the dream of a shining city on a hill. As told by bards and poets, their story is at once an epic love story, a story of military heroism and an epic tragedy. This is Prince Thrommel’s literary legacy. He and Jolene have been idealized and immortalized in a series of wildly popular tales that have spread their story. They continue to be inspirational figures to writers, poets and bards and the popularity of their storey with the public continues to grow. They have transcended the facts of their origins and lives to become literary archetypes adopted throughout the Flanaess. Prince Thrommel and Jolene belong to every land and the ages.
The four works generally characterized as comprising the Thrommel Cycle variously recount the life and death of Prince Thrommel. Written in the 25 plus years since Prince Thrommel’s disappearance, they are foundational to any discussion of modern literature in the Flanaess. The works owe no debt to a particular culture but are uniquely Flanaean. Their popularity has spawned countless imitations and retellings of the basic story. Others have simply been inspired by the style of the Thommel Cycle writers to apply those styles to completely unrelated tales. With the Thrommel Cycle, a new literary age begins that finds value in well told tales without the practical or historical considerations of the past as necessary reference. The Flanaess has found its own voice at last.
The four works in the Thrommel Cycle are described below.
Thrommel Innamorto by Boiard (1 Volume)
1st Edition - 576 CY
Note - Published in Dyvers and Greyhawk simultaneously, this volume marked the opening of a publishing war between the two cities. While Greyhawk would ultimately prevail, many writers began to look for more peaceful confines in which to publish, contributing to the rise of Willip as a literary city.
Boaird was a bard and writer from Verbobonc. According to himself, he was present on the field at Emridy Meadows. The truth of this claim is not established, however, his ability to claim a first hand account of events has increased his currency in the public’s eye. Such is not, however, really necessary as his literary powers on display in Thrommel Innamorto are formidable. Here is the work of an accomplished writer and master bard at the height of his ability.
The book principally confines itself to the romance between Prince Thrommel and Jolene. It is a sighing, sweepingly epic romance that crystalizes Thrommel and Jolene as perfect, but doomed lovers. The volume was an immediate sensation and has become a staple at practically every civilized court in the Flanaess. Even in Furyondy and Veluna, where there is first hand knowledge of the principles, Boiard’s charged prose has swept up knight and lady alike. Among more common folk, Boiard is commonly recited by attentive and calculating swains in their efforts to sway the objects of their affections.
Thrommel Furioso by Aristo (1 Volume)
1st Edition - 578 CY
Note - This volume continues the dueling publishing efforts in Greyhawk and Dyvers, having then two alternate 1st through 4th Editions.
Aristo was Boiard’s great rival, also from Verbobonc. Possessed on an equal talent, Aristo chose to focus on Prince Thrommel’s military adventures. While it might be thought that Boaird would have the better of Aristo as he had all the resources of an epic love affair with which to work, Aristo proved that military campaigns can be no less compelling. Aristo knew his intended audience, a feudal nobility that would respond to seeing military matters glamorized and a common audience ready to find something other than inconvenience and drudgery in their service among feudal levies. Aristo hits precisely the right notes, building a tale that speaks to common soldiers and their noble leaders alike. To do this, Aristo adds numerous characters to his story, any of whom may not have actually existed.
Hardly a military textbook, Thrommel Furioso is an idealized military fantasy. This has not stopped detractors from pointing out the more implausible exploits of it characters, nor supporters from arguing for a greater accuracy, allowing for literary license. Most notable has been the supposed reaction of the real life counterparts of the foemen depicted in the volume. Lending some credence to claims that Iuz or others have been infuriated by the volume is Aristo’s virtual disappearance from public life and performance. His reticence to explain matters has many puzzled but has only served to popularize the work.
Le Morte de Thrommel by Malore (1 Volume)
1st Edition - 581 CY
Note - Published anonymously, the precise location or locations of publication are unknown. Identifying a 1st Edition is virtually impossible. The earliest known works date from 581 CY.
Le Morte de Thrommel is a masterpiece. Drawing on the same elements present in Boiard and Aristo, Malore expands well beyond either of his peers. The entirety of Thrommel and Jolene’s story is laid out for the reader in the most romantic, vividly imagined manner possible. No detail is left out of this huge volume and minor characters are brilliantly developed to stand beside the principles. In this sense, the book is almost a collection of individual stories woven together with that of Thrommel and Jolene. Causing an immediate controversy was Malore’s depiction of love affairs among the characters, said by some to test the bounds of decency. This is an obvious overreaction, but in his depiction of wooing lovers in more than strictly idealized terms, Malore humanizes what might otherwise become too easily caricatures after Boiard and Aristo having so previously explored these figues. It is, then, the humanizing quality of Malore, and not simply in his romantic passages, that elevate this work above all others in the Thrommel Cycle.
Malore is famous for his work. He is also entirely unknown. No one knows precisely who he, or she, is. Any who have stepped forward to claim a mantle of literary genius have, to this date, been proven frauds. No other work by Malore is known to exist. The anonymous publication of the work only adds to the mystery. Le Morte de Thrommel simply appeared. Conspiracy theorists allege that Malore is merely a pseudonym adopted to throw off those fell agencies described, in startling detail, within the book as having caused, participated in or condoned Thrommel’s disappearence. Le Morte de Thrommel is rife with hidden plots, wheels within wheels and the subtle and gross machinations of Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood and other malefactors. In these depictions, Malore adds substantially to the mythology of Prince Thrommel’s disappearance. Many of the details of his claims are entirely original and something of a cottage industry has sprung up among certain adventurous types determined to follow Malore’s “hints” to bring justice to the Thrommel conspirators or, most bizarrely, to “rescue” Thrommel.
Ye Idylls of Ye Kinge by Tenhson (1 Volume)
1st Edition - 585 CY
Note - This volume has spawned many spurious “editions,” beyond, but including, the first. All authentic editions have richly illuminated panels immediately before and after each chapter. Spurious editions may have no panels or only some panels, ostensibly to lower the cost of reproduction.
Ye Idylls of Ye Kinge is an outlandish text. It supposes a history where Prince Thrommel lived and married Jolene to unite Furyondy and Veluna. The actual story of Thrommel and Jolene comprises only the first quarter of the text. The remainder is a complete fiction of a future history. The book does, however, play to the fondest wishes of many who have read the other Cycle works or whose politics run toward an eventual union of Furyondy and Veluna. The writing is also brilliant. The book is essentially a great, multi-part poem but the poetics are so well crafted that Ye Idylls of Ye Kinge can be read almost as prose. The author, Tenhson, is an obscure and itinerant figure, known to variously frequent Hardby, Greyhawk, Dyvers and Verbobonc.
Theories abound about the author’s intent. It this a disguised political tract that is using Thrommel and Jolene to promote the union of Furyondy and Veluna? Is the author mad? Is this simply a good yarn? Is Prince Thrommel (somehow) the actual author? Is this, in fact, a prophetic work of some sort couched in metaphor and the symbolism of the illuminated panels? This last theory and its popularity among certain circles is responsible for the accounting of subsequent editions without all of the illuminated panels as spurious, rather than merely lesser or variant, editions. Some collectors of this book are obsessive to the point of collecting and comparing copies of the first edition in an effort to identify a supposed “first, true edition,” that would more certainly reveal its supposed prophecies.
***End Text***
Thinly veiled, I have transformed Thrommel IMC into the Flanaess' rough equivalent of King Arthur. Was there a "real" King Arthur? That question matters little when one recognizes the power of the idea of King Arthur. Arthurian literature continues in its popularity and pastiches to this very day. King Arthur is immortal in peoples minds. He is idealized and mythologized, having had a pronounced influence on society and literature that continues. Thrommel has the same potential.
I elevated Artur Jakarati to the kingship of Furyondy to complete the circle. Thrommel is the idealized/mythologized King Arthur. Artur Jakarati is a physical manefestation of a King Arthur-like figure.
In so doing, I believe I have added a depth to an area of the Flanaess (Furyondy) otherwise lacking in depth much beyond the tiresome fight with Iuz that never sees an end, decisive or otherwise. I have also made Thrommel a figure of interest throughout the Flanaess, not just in Furyondy and Veluna and their immediate surrounds.
The myth of Thrommel is, I will argure, more interesting than the man was or would be if "canon" had him "return" in whatever form. I believe I have preserved Thrommel's mystery but have also moved Thrommel's story forward. In this, I find my solution far more appealing than (1) eternally missing Thrommel, (2) vampire Thrommel, or (3) rescued Thrommel - all of which you will note I do not foreclose from future consideration, however unlikely.
A "living" Thrommel would undo everything interesting about Thrommel. I believe I have the next best thing. YMMV. _________________ GVD
The Keoish Slumbering wasn't a succession of weak Kings or a descent into torpor.
It was the replacement of an expansionist dynasty with a culturally focused dynasty to give the kingdom a chance to consolidate the territories it had added during three frenzied centuries of near constant warfare and expansion, and which had followed two centuries of flight and establishment that featured more intense warfare.
The Slumbering allowed Keoland to consolidate and expand culturally within itself, creating a stronger, more advanced nation, that would be ready for Tavish the Great.
I doubt Furyondy would be going through something similar.
Count Artur Jakarati(sp) of the County of Crystalreach will become king after a brief period of civil unrest. Search for "Furyondy" (to the left of your screen). Someone wrote a cool article on the topic. Long live King Artur
yes I am sure that Artur with his Intelligene of 6 and Charisma of 8 would make a swell king...
Count Artur Jakarati(sp) of the County of Crystalreach will become king after a brief period of civil unrest. Search for "Furyondy" (to the left of your screen). Someone wrote a cool article on the topic. Long live King Artur
yes I am sure that Artur with his Intelligene of 6 and Charisma of 8 would make a swell king...
Well, although he does have a INT of 6, he has a WIS of 17 and as he is a Paladin, he must have a CHR of at least 17; at least according to "The Marklands" and AD&D rules...
Kwint
note that while Marklands makes him a paladin it doesn't list his Charisma (general in 2e all scores of 15 or above were listed) and it says that he is shy and akward around other nobles, not something that could generaly be said of somebody with a 17-18 charisma. There is no way he should be a paladin.
Well, although he does have a INT of 6, he has a WIS of 17 and as he is a Paladin, he must have a CHR of at least 17; at least according to "The Marklands" and AD&D rules...
well depeding on the version of AD&D rules you use the Int 6 would disqualify him as well. (1e paladins had a minimum INT of 13)
well depeding on the version of AD&D rules you use the Int 6 would disqualify him as well. (1e paladins had a minimum INT of 13)
Marklands is a 2nd ed. product so the INT requirement no longer applied...As to the CHR, I would have assumed that it was an editorial oversight (which occured all too often in 2nd ed.)...I have no problem with him being a paladin; the only place I've ever seen him written up was in Marklands (I don't own CoG)...If he could wisely select councilors to overcome his low Int, I see no reason he couldn't be a decent ruler...Other nobles in Furyondy might not agree...
Kwint
1: The Slumbering: I stand corrected.
What I meant was a Furyondy that was turned inward rather than outward, letting the watches on the northern frontier slumber, while the Great Noble Houses (especially those of the south) dance whatever non-entity they've made king on their puppet strings, intriguing among themselves rather than landing the killing blow on the increasingly sclerotic Oerthly Empire of Iuz.
2: Artur Jakarti - for a big dim ox, he seems to have done well enough as Count of Crystalreach (?) (or whatever fief and title he was granted). Then again, there's a big difference between being a war leader and a ruler. Perhaps he might be naive enough for the Great Lords to put him on the throne. That said - isn't he a Shield Lander? If so, the Ferrondi houses might look for one of their own instead.
3: A split between north and south. While the threat of Iuz remains (however, weakened) - the lords of the north can't afford to split from the south. On their own, I doubt they have the revenue to maintain their armies and defences. I'd need to check in Marklands, but I'll bet that they recieve a fair amount of subsidy from the Crown. The Crown of course, gets its money from taxes - taken in the south. So - if the split away, they lose this revenue (plus the levies and military support of the south).
Another factor is the Knights of Furyondy. I'm pretty sure they would oppose any seccessionist tendencies in the kingdom (which could be construed as being treasonous, of course).
If you did want to play the north v south card - I'd make it a short power struggle, as the northern lords try to express their independence, the southern lords call their bluff (i.e. "go ahead - but you'll get not a penny more from us"), the Knights mobilise against the more hardline secessionists and after some brinksmanship (and perhaps a skirmish or a siege or two), the northern lords capitulate, the hardliners are executed or exiled and, slowly the dust settles...
Count Artur is a popular Shield Lander puppet of the King of Furyondy, and of the nobles of Crystalreach(knowing how the 7 families like to politic among themselves ). But yes, this becomes very easy when Artur has Int: 6 and Cha: 8. What a train wreck. Artur's enoblement was a political ploy, and just one more way of throwing a willing intermediary power in between the border of Iuz and the other, less war-ravaged lands of Furyondy. Once again, under Count Artur, the Shield Landers will bear the brunt of Iuzian encraoachment. How clever of the Furyondians.
As to kingship, it is doubtful any one of the 7 families would support a foreigner as king, even if he could be easily manipulated.
All that being said, the Belvor sucession issue is an important one. Many current rulers throughout the Flanaess are close to reaching the end of their days, specifically of natural causes. Belvor has had one of the longest reigns of any human ruler. It would not surprise me if Belvor and many other rulers do not make it to the next printing of any Greyhawk material. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Artur, as I see him, is a paladin with minimum stat requirements. He is not a genius; he thinks with his sword and at that level, he thinks more than adequately, having well advanced as a paladin. He also has good common sense, represented by his wisdom as a paladin. He is someone people can sympathize and empathize with (both for his not being a genius and with a paladin's charisma) and he does surround himself with councilors, to include his wife and the Knights of Fury.
As for the restive and independent nobles of Furyondy not “allowing” or “supporting” Artur, he gives them no choice - thinking with his sword again. And he then reorganizes the country to ensure greater stability. This does create tensions, however.
IMC, Artur is a flawed and, in some ways, tortured ruler. He did what be believed he had to do to ensure Furyondy's continued survival and success but he would not have opposed Belvor (they both being paladins of Heironeous) but for Belvor's descent, beginning with his use of a potion of longevity to maintain his reign unnaturally. As monarch, the crown sits uneasily on Artur's head. He is not by intellect or disposition a statesman or diplomat or even a peacetime leader concerned with economics and whatnot, yet he is called upon to be as often as not. Artur knows that his "new order" in Furyondy hangs by a thread and that opposition runs deep, particularly in the Gold Country that has the resources to back a "restoration." His family is caught in the middle. In this way, Artur is much like the "sad" King Arthur in Excaliber or Sean Connery's older King Arthur in First Knight. I find this a far more compelling depiction than "Belvor the Undying" or "Belvor the Colorless" or "Thrommel More of the Same Only with a Different Name."
I completely agree with Cebrion's note that the rulers of the Flanaess are getting long in the tooth and would and should be replaced in the natural order - say with the next iteration of GH. That they would all be particularly long lived is an obvious deue ex machina to avoid change with only the "potion of longevity" solution being more obvious and silly.
The transition to GH-The Next Generation is, IMO, perhaps one of the greatest challenges the setting faces if it is to remain vital. Extending the reign of current monarchs or replacing them with monarchs of the same name but in a MarkII version or replacing them with "act-a-like" dopplegangers of any sort, seems to me to be a cheap out that would ultimately prove unsatisfying.
King Artur is a step in the direction of a changing of the guard, IMC. As the next monarch of Furyondy, King Artur may not be the best solution, but I have yet to see any suggestion as good or better.
"The Return of Thrommel" is IMO hackneyed by having been so anticipated, wastes Thrommel's potential (see my earlier Thrommel Cycle post) and with Thrommel now a vampire (if not destroyed) would be entirely forced and artificial. I prefer my use of Thrommel as an iconic figure that can inform more of the setting than who is wearing the crown in Chendyl.
To compile a brief "hit list" of who needs to be replaced sooner rather than later -
Belvor of Furyondy
Kimbertos Scotti of Keoland
Duke Karll of Urnst
Hazen of Veluna
Grenell of the North Kingdom
Countess Bellisica of Urnst can hold on a bit longer but needs to marry and birth an heir or die.
Duke Elhyu of Tenh needs to either _do_ something (see my Return of the Ur-Flan article for what I've done IMC) or die.
While the setting has moved forward, the leadership of the various nations has not kept exact pace. I give LG credit for understanding that the Flanaess is not frozen in time. _________________ GVD
IMC, through the original ToEE, Thrommel was discovered and freed, and returned to Furyondy. The marriage to the Velunan Princess took place, and after the events of the Greyhawk Wars, the two nations united - the Kingdom of Velondy was born. Shortly after, Thrommel was assassinated by diabolists, which precipitated the Paladin in Hell adventure. His soul eventually redeemed, he returned to Velondy to lead the Northern Crusade.
The move of making Count Artur Jakarati of Crystalreach was a brilliant move by Belvor;
1) He kept the other furyondy nobles from tearing themselves apart squabbling over the vacant province.
2) He gained the support of a popular and powerful war leader Artur Jakarati, cemented the loyalty of the large shieldlander army remnants and refugees, some 11,000+.
3) Quieted shieldlander paranoia about furyondy annexation.
4) Belvor gained an apparent unconnected honest opinion of the needs of the shattered nothern war provinces (protrayed that way).
Unfortunately his attributes that make him a excellent Count also make him an extermely unlikely King;
1) He is a shieldlander
2) He has no historical long term connections with the court, merchants, religious, old guard military or any other supporting structure within furyondy.
3) Well no one complained when he was given a shattered, impovished and war torn province given his positives, the other nobles would no doubt object if he was offered the throne.
4) Even commoners are fickle many no doubt cheer Artur Jakarati and his "shieldland allies" when they are helping to keep Iuz at bay but on the throne established by the ancient blood of Old Ferrond heroes some (?) centuries ago.
Given all these factors, I can't see a paladin with his moral code militarily siezing the throne against strong opposition to claim a "foreign" nation.
Sounds to much like ambition to me, with a strong chance of a tyranny to keep it, not a very (LG) ethos to me.
Just a thought...
My campaign is currently in late CY 573 / early 574.
Two of the PC's were actually with Thrommel when he was abducted:
you can read about this in posts I have made here.
(The series is called "The Abduction of Thrommel")
IMC, the abduction was ordered by Iuz and performed by Mordenkainen. Iuz made it look like the Scarlett Brotherhood was behind it - this "outed" them in the courts of Furyondy.
Iuz' plan is to keep Thrommel locked away in the Temple for a few years, long enough that everyone assumes that he is dead or permanently missing, while letting Belvor know that he is alive. After a while, the nobles will push Belvor to name an heir. He will refuse, since he knows that his son still lives. First there will be a struggle among claimants that Iuz will try to turn to open private wars. Then the victorious claimant will face off against the King, which will almost certainly lead to war.
If the King is defeated, or chooses to name an heir rather than face more bloodshed, Iuz will allow Thrommel to be rescued in time to re-assert his claim to the throne. Thrommel will then have to rally followers to defeat the legally recognized claimant.
Thus, Iuz will go into the Greywhawk Wars with the prospect of a weakened Furyondy having fought as many as three civil wars in the prior decade. He hopes to do better IMC than he did officially. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
The 7 Families would never allow a Shield Lander on the throne (unless as queen-consort heralding a union of the realms...) - no matter how pliable he was.
In the absence of Thrommel or another direct heir, they'd go trawling back through the geneologies to find a politically expedient great nephew or cousin or such.
I do agree with GVD though that thought needs to be put into moving rulers on. That was part of the rationale behind LG's Dust series in Tenh. After decade of inaction, Ehyeh was obviously a broken reed and needed to be replaced before the Tenhas were no more (that and fixing the effects of the Ether debacle).
Grenell is another old man without an heir but with plenty of overly ambitious nobles - but I'll keep my thoughts on him to myself for the moment.
Karell Lorinar's son might present some problems for the Duchy, seeing as he seems...er...reluctant to wed. I'm sure the noble houses of the Duchy will eventually back him into a corner on this and get him to produce an heir, but there's scope for interesting court intrigues there (perhaps a la Edward II of England).
Equally, as Belissica seems set to be the County's Elizabeth I, a successor will have to be dredged up from the plentiful ranks of the House of Gellor (perhaps some son/nephew/daughter/niece of Gellor from the Gord the Rogue books?)
I like the treatment of Skotti's demise so far in LG Keoland (though I haven't really been following it too closely). Even if you want him popping his clogs naturally (as opposed to being assassinated), given the strirrigns of a new Keoish Imperial phase, I see a few Rhola kings in Keoland's future, perhaps.
Hazen? Yeah, he needs to go - preferably as part of the wasting sickness that affected the participants of the Striking of the Crook (though not Bigby, curiously enough...). (As an aside, I've always found it hard to get enthused about Veluna - it's like the Canada of the Flanaess ).
IMC, through the original ToEE, Thrommel was discovered and freed, and returned to Furyondy. The marriage to the Velunan Princess took place, and after the events of the Greyhawk Wars, the two nations united - the Kingdom of Velondy was born. Shortly after, Thrommel was assassinated by diabolists, which precipitated the Paladin in Hell adventure. His soul eventually redeemed, he returned to Velondy to lead the Northern Crusade.
There are only two circumstances under which "the Return of Thrommel" would remotely appeal to me.
Gargoyle outlines one - Thrommel returns and Furondy and Veluna unite into a new superstate, with all that would imply. Chief among the implications would be no more fractured and disunited Furyondy nobles gumming up the works. In a united Furyondy/Veluna, the nobles toe the royal line. They send levies when told to. They pay taxes when told to. No more of Sargent's crazy quilt Furyondy of mini-states as Veluna would never unite with such a fractious hodge-podge. And Iuz gets his posterior handed to him by the new superstate. Iuz "ascends" to full godhood (ala Vecna) while Furyondy/Veluna are laying seige to Dorakaa before annexing the entire territory. Anything less would make the union of Furyondy and Veluna a pointless, hollow gesture. We already have Keoland as the rump superpower; we do not need another one.
Second, vampire Thrommel returns as Thrommel the Black and he is _NOT_ defeated by the "forces of good." Instead, he reigns as vampire king (always having to work to keep his vampiric nature secret or mostly so) and takes on Iuz in a battle of the bad guys. Again, crazy quilt Furyondy comes to a halt as Black Thrommel takes no crap and uses his "returned hero" status among the populace as a means to get the Furyondian nobles in line. Iuz can stay in this scenario.
All told, however, I prefer my solution.
If forced to bet, however, I'd bet Thrommel returns (ruining the mystery) and rules as just another king without uniting with Veluna (further wasting opportunity). LCD - lowest common denominator - "change" without change. Story "advancement" without real change.
I would similarly bet that there will be HUGE resistence to retiring aging rulers. There seems a substantial GH throng resistent to ANY change that actually changes anything. _________________ GVD
In the absence of Thrommel or another direct heir, they'd go trawling back through the geneologies to find a politically expedient great nephew or cousin or such.
I do agree with GVD though that thought needs to be put into moving rulers on. That was part of the rationale behind LG's Dust series in Tenh. After decade of inaction, Ehyeh was obviously a broken reed and needed to be replaced before the Tenhas were no more (that and fixing the effects of the Ether debacle).
From an LG perspective, the Thrommel "arch" seems to have dragged into into Year 6 of the campaign with no clear direction IMHO. There's no signs of in fighting or other direction of the noble houses and Jakorti is not used as an NPC in official modules although I agree 100% that he's a clear major player in the whole struggle for the throne.
Thrommel seems to be gathering support amoung the followes of Hextor NOT Tharizdun in the LG campaign he's now an official follower of Hextor.
and he's "placed" a dark cloud over the capital Chendl so sunlight doesnt go through.
There's a cross regional convention with Ohio (Veluna) in February and that would make a great choice to throw Jolene into the picture with Thrommel.
Personally I think if he's killed as a vampire he could get True res'd and get an atonement and his sire would be able to rule. At least if I was running a home campaign in Furyondy that would be one of the options I'd take, having a regent for a time until the son or daughter would be able to come of age. But I don't think in official canon material Furyondy lets women assume the throne.
There's also a note in 2e Return of the Eight where Thrommels soul is held by Tenser in an item. But that's only a sugguestion for the DM...I think that's kinda neat but from a 3e rules perspective it night change since Thrommel is a vampire now from RttToEE.
All IMHO
Mike
LG player, author and judge _________________ "I waste it with my +12 Hackmaster" - Dave
I like the treatment of Skotti's demise so far in LG Keoland (though I haven't really been following it too closely). Even if you want him popping his clogs naturally (as opposed to being assassinated), given the strirrigns of a new Keoish Imperial phase, I see a few Rhola kings in Keoland's future, perhaps.
P.
You haven't heard?
Kimbertos is back.
You'll have to wait to put him in the dead book.
Not that I liked the assassination storyline, from what little I've heard King's should be better protected especially a major player like Keoland.
But if he has been brought back, it begs the question...how do you kill someone, I mean how many clones, raise dead, liches, pacts and wishes does that make for the major NPC players now in total?
Does anyone just die and stay dead anymore?
Funny that GH has all these assassin guilds since apparently no one can get the job done, even with blackrazor!!
Last edited by Crag on Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Yeah - have to say, I like my dead NPCs to stay that way. That was one thing Dragonlance did well - when it killed off a major character, they generally stayed dead.
One would assume that in a world with True Res. that any assassin worth their salt will have a way to trap the soul of their target. If anyone read the end of Traitor's Road, I describe just such an elaborate weapon (a soul trapping arrow of slaying that automatically teleports back to the one who dispatched the assassin with the soul of the victim).
Isn't there a special metal that has this effect - trapping the soul of the victim in a weapon? I can see the Scarlet Brotherhood with a vault in Hesuel Ilshar (the Suel name would translate to The Armoury of Stolen Souls in Common) where they keep the weapons with the trapped souls of their victims.
Yeah - have to say, I like my dead NPCs to stay that way. That was one thing Dragonlance did well - when it killed off a major character, they generally stayed dead.
Heh, it's bit like superheroes 'dying'. Two issues later they are already coming back with time-warp and what-not
Woesinger wrote:
One would assume that in a world with True Res. that any assassin worth their salt will have a way to trap the soul of their target. If anyone read the end of Traitor's Road, I describe just such an elaborate weapon (a soul trapping arrow of slaying that automatically teleports back to the one who dispatched the assassin with the soul of the victim).
Isn't there a special metal that has this effect - trapping the soul of the victim in a weapon? I can see the Scarlet Brotherhood with a vault in Hesuel Ilshar (the Suel name would translate to The Armoury of Stolen Souls in Common) where they keep the weapons with the trapped souls of their victims.
Dinathium or something like that. I do agree with the Vault. Actually we have in our regional gazetteer a town where Hextors priests animate executed troublemakers (really serious ones like Knights of the Chase and other rebel scum) and seal them under their temple to make sure only 'True Resurrection' ever gets them back.
That's why nobody who can be trouble for the state will get a ground burial. Getting the guy back is just too easy. That's why the founder of Idee Volunteers (after he was surrounded and killed by Glorious Ahlissan army) was burned and his ashes scattered, along with his other followers.
Of course this is how history goes. Perhaps there is actually an underground chamber, encased with lead and anti-magic zone where a single pitiful man is slowly wasting away because Ahlissans know that only way to make sure a guy is dead and beyond reach of True Res*, is to kill him off old age
Edit: I'm not sure if Plane Shifting would work as well. Perhaps lobbing the body into negative energy plane makes possible for target not to be affected by True Res. as it's not on same plane then.
And I really liked the weapon in Traitor's Road. After all, the Assassin knows she will only have one shot at killing mister 'Muddled Tongue' (He was 14-15th level Wizard wasn't he?) so no point in doing it half-heartedly, as Rary should have resources to get him back.
S.H, the guy from Naerie
*Because if he is dead, some bastard 1000 miles away could just cast True Res. and get the guy back to him.
But if he has been brought back, it begs the question...how do you kill someone, I mean how many clones, raise dead, liches, pacts and wishes does that make for the major NPC players now in total?
Does anyone just die and stay dead anymore?
Funny that GH has all these assassin guilds since apparently no one can get the job done, even with blackrazor!!
ROFL! Well put and well observed! _________________ GVD
Funny that GH has all these assassin guilds since apparently no one can get the job done, even with blackrazor!!
I´m sure that is part of the trade. Scrubs get killed once and stay dead.
Important people are the cash cows - you can continue to get paid
for killing them over and over again.
In the old days, every resurrection required a system shock survival roll (based on CON) and the resurectee lost a point of CON. So there was an absolute limit. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
True Resurrection still requires a 17th level cleric. While it may be "fashionable" to toss such around casually, they should be just a bit more limited.
Resurrection still requires at least a body part. A disintegrate effect will make it impossible for your 13th level clerics to bring someone back.
Raise Dead still requires a fully intact body. Taking a trophy will make it impossible for your 9th clerics to bring someone back.
So 3E hasn't taken all of the risk of dying and coming back. You just need to take the proper precauitions.
Oh, and I doubt you need to keep the souls of the dead trapped forever. After a few kings have come and gone nobody is going to want an old one to suddenly come back and mess the sucession up completely.
"Oh, and I doubt you need to keep the souls of the dead trapped forever. After a few kings have come and gone nobody is going to want an old one to suddenly come back and mess the sucession up completely."
And for that reason, there may well be laws (or at least precedent) established in many nations forbidding resurrected rulers from claiming the throne, or from doing so after a certain amount of time has passed. It's in the interest of ambitious new kings (and for the nation as a whole) to keep this time as short as possible. Civil wars are no fun for anyone.
come on now, theya re great for the neigboring lands especialy if they bhave an expansionist mindset.
You might be right. Agressive neighbors might want to encourage the enactment of really vague sucession laws. Perhaps it's fortunate that they don't usually have the power to do that.
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Thrommel - The Once and Future King (Who Never Was and Never Will Be). 
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