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    Canonfire :: View topic - Derwa Leafsister
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    Derwa Leafsister
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
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    Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:12 am  
    Derwa Leafsister

    Merric B,

    Just a few comments and questions regarding your article.

    Where in Ulek is the Keep on the Borderlands?
    Why was Derwa placed there out of the way?
    What is the name of her Ranger Company?

    Overall I like your articles, but I am details oriented fellow.
    Your article could have been longer just filling in these details.

    Height, Weight. Level (obviously she is at least 9th level).
    Specific spells or magical gear that she is known to use?
    Specific deeds that she has accompished?
    Why is she devoted to the County?
    Does she have family there... children?
    Where is she from and what is her heritage,... Oeridian?
    More about her bow skill and its history?
    Who are her contacts within the County?
    How is she useful to my PC beyond "Raise Dead"?
    A stat or two would be useful as well (nothing full blown).
    Other than her acerbic tongue what other flaws does she exhibit?

    This is not to be construed as negative criticism.
    As I said, I like your stuff. I just want more.

    Thanks for the past two contributions.
    Keep it up. Really.
    Skech
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    Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:09 am  

    Yeah, I do tend towards brevity (and I was surprised at how short the article was - I must have been pressed for time). To expand on your questions:

    Where in Ulek is the Keep on the Borderlands?
    It lies on the pass in the mountains between the county and Courwood.

    Why was Derwa placed there out of the way?
    I'll expand on this on my article on the Old Faith - let's just say that the County of Ulek is the last bastion of the Old Faith, and it is crumbling under the pressure of the newer gods. Derwa, as a cleric of Ehlonna, does not represent the old ways, and so is discriminated against within the county - and her acerbic tongue doesn't help matters.

    What is the name of her Ranger Company?
    It doesn't have one.

    Height, Weight. Level (obviously she is at least 9th level).
    5'6" Slender. Cleric 9

    Specific spells or magical gear that she is known to use?
    None known - although she's skilled with bows.

    Specific deeds that she has accompished?
    Help resist the invasion by Turmosh Mak; rescued Gillian the White from slavers.

    Why is she devoted to the County?
    Family ties.

    Does she have family there... children?
    Derwa has no children, but she has cousins (and possibly a brother) who live in Ulek

    Where is she from and what is her heritage,... Oeridian?
    Derwa is from Courwood, although she has spent time in Celene before the borders were closed. She's OF in derivation.

    More about her bow skill and its history?
    She's elven trained. :)

    Who are her contacts within the County?
    More to come on that, once I treat on the faith of Ehlonna.

    How is she useful to my PC beyond "Raise Dead"?
    You need more? ;) She has a good network of agents (her rangers) scattered throughout the Wild Coast, and tends to know what's going on there. As such, she sponsors missions that may be of usefulness there.

    It's likely she also knows the secrets of crafting a Quiver of Ehlonna...

    I promise my next article ("The Old Faith in Ulek") will be longer and with more details - if you have any requests for areas it should cover, please post them!

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:06 pm  

    Why is the "Old Faith" crumbling in the county?

    I see it as written, very strong in its faith and druidic culture.

    Broadly it could be argued that Ehlonna is part of the "old faith", since several druids take Ehlonna as a patron.

    Just curious??
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:44 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Why is the "Old Faith" crumbling in the county?

    I see it as written, very strong in its faith and druidic culture.

    Broadly it could be argued that Ehlonna is part of the "old faith", since several druids take Ehlonna as a patron.

    Just curious??


    Once upon a time, the Flan people lived as the only major human race in the Sheldomar Valley and Wild Coast. At that time, their major religion was the Old Faith - and, as such, was the worship of nature as exemplified by Beory. Beory's servant (such as she had one) was Obad-Hai. If one looks at the map and examines the Old Faith these days, one notices that the heart of the Sheldomar Valley no longer reveres the Old Faith - it has been pushed to the edges, with only Verbobonc, Ulek, the Wild Coast and the western valley nations (Geoff, Sterich) still following it, and it only really being strong in the County of Ulek! This is a faith in decline.

    One of the troubles with Greyhawk mythology is that some of it is grafted on late onto the setting. Thus, Corellon Larethian is not an original Greyhawk god - instead, Ehlonna was the goddess of the elves. (I'm sure Gary's mentioned that at times). So, having the additional demihuman pantheons often causes trouble. They don't really interact well with the greyhawk pantheons.

    I use CL and Yondalla in my games, but I'm becoming more convinced that they should be replaced purely by Ehlonna.

    Now, if we accept that Ehlonna tends more to the Elven and Halfling races, then in Ulek (especially), the contact with the demi-humans there brought Ehlonna into the fold worshipped by the Old Faith. This causes additional tension, however, because Ehlonna and Obad-Hai do not get along and have overlapping portfolios.

    Berei is unusual. She's a goddess of home & agriculture as opposed to nature. What you have here is a goddess (or aspect of Beory) that exemplifies the changing nature of the Flan people - from their hunter/gatherer state, which is Beory/Obad-Hai - to their settled civilised state.

    As the communities settle down, Berei becomes progressively more important. Count Lewenn (as mentioned in LGG pg 117) follows Berei, and has recently been demoted in the druidic hierarchy (LGG 117, Conflicts & Intrigues). There is obviously conflict between the "old" old faith of Beory/Obad-Hai and the "new" old faith which looks more to Berei.

    To make things more interesting, Beory is *not* an active deity. She can be seen as the spirit of the land, only opposing the most grievous threats to Oerth. The active nature deities are Ehlonna and Obad-Hai, with Berei caring for the villagers and farmers who no longer quite revere the land in the same way!

    To Berei, an orchard of fruit trees is more attractive the the untamed forest that Obad-Hai enjoys. Ehlonna, once we take the elven connection into account, prefers a tamed forest; not agriculture, but not the pure wild state, either!

    So, we have Berei as the goddess followed by the ruler (and his family) of the County of Ulek rather than Beory/Obad-Hai! At this point, I believe the conclusion is clear: the Old Faith is in trouble. Druids - as such - are changing into stewards of agriculture rather than guardians of the wild places, and thus tension is mounting.

    I hope you find this enlightening; a form of this will appear in my Old Faith article once I can collect all the notes. Further questions will be appreciated!

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:18 pm  

    Well reasoned and articulated! I find your conclusions about Corellon especially interesting although I too prefer to keep him and the demi-human deities that Roger E. Moore long-ago introduced.

    Perhaps Ehlenestra was a sister of the Seldarine who originally brought elves to Oerth--the midwife of the olves?

    Maybe she and Ulaa played these roles for all the classic demi-humans of Oerth (olve, dwur, noniz, hobniz)?

    If it happened, likely it was after the Vaati's defeat of Miska the Wolf-Spider, i.e., after the Battle on the Plain of Pesh.

    What tales do the Old Faith tell of that legendary event?
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:17 pm  

    MerricB wrote:
    One of the troubles with Greyhawk mythology is that some of it is grafted on late onto the setting. Thus, Corellon Larethian is not an original Greyhawk god - instead, Ehlonna was the goddess of the elves. (I'm sure Gary's mentioned that at times). So, having the additional demihuman pantheons often causes trouble. They don't really interact well with the greyhawk pantheons.


    No, I mention it.
    Along with supporting the expulsion of all the demi-human (and humanoid) racial deities.
    Purge them! Purge them all!
    Mad
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:35 pm  

    Personally I am in favor of the Demi-human pantheons Smile

    What bugged me was the numerous "unknown" gods and goddesses without any kind of cultural basis or backstory.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:55 pm  

    I also have a similar sort of dichotomy and conflict in the Old Faith, though with a number of noteworthy differences.

    IMC, Berei is the original Halfling deity (I don't use the Dragon magazine demihuman pantheons), but the long association of the Flan and the Halflings resulted in Berei stepping into the role of Hearth mother of the Old Faith once the Old Faithful Flan started settling down. Thus, there is the split you mention.

    Also, I don't have druids outside of the Old Faith. Ehlonna is stealing worshippers away from the druids, not splitting them into more factions.

    Mind you, not all the "Flan" communities were Old Faith, but certainly the Sheldomar Valley culture was.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:06 am  

    Hey Merric,

    I've posted things to do with this one a few occasions and it's a topic I find hard to keep my nose out of mainly because it has given me a lot of reason for thought in my own version of Greyhawk.

    As a starting note I totally agree with the axing of the demi human pantheons. I wrote an article about it - not sure on the link but you can find it in the Topics in Religion I think entitled "An Alternative Look at the Cosmology of the Flanaess" I think.

    To the topic at hand though...it really bothered me that the Old Faith was made up of all nature religions. The Old Faith has it's routes in ancient Flan history but the temptation is to view the Flan as a homogenous group. As has been highlighted by a view good minds on here - they weren't. They were various groups of similar ancestry but the Flan gods weren't a pantheon so much as various tribla gods some of whom received wider worship.

    In my version of the world...The Old Faith worships Beory only. Berei I am still finding a home for in my ideas. The druids pay respect to Pelor, Nerull and Allitur mainly but only as deities of the SHeldomar. The Old Faith is centred in this region although can be found elsewhere obviously. The Old Faith is also, importantly a cultural institution as much as a religious one. The Old Faith druids are counsellors, spiritual guides, judges and so on. But they draw their power from their bond with the Oerth which for this very point means that druids must gain their power from Beory.

    Other druids exist...these druids worship Obad-Hai...it is interesting to note that most of Obad-Hai's worship is amongst the more native american flan themed people in the northern areas (Rovers, Coltens, Tenh). The Sheldomar is much more Celtic in feel and has the Old Faith. Obad-Hai is an ancient god who for whatever reasons is able to grant his priests the powers of the druid class.

    Any other nature deities must have clerics..if u want power over the natural world pick the plant or animal domains.

    I would support that there is a dwindling of the Old Faith...but when the existence of the deities is proven this means that its cant be because Beory's followers dont know if she exists and have no true loyalty to her. I put the dwindling down to the fact the Old Faith is a cultural thing...a Flan cultural thing. It is storng in Geoff as the Flan are still numerous here - elsewhere they are watered down culturally by the Oeridians and SUloise. The Old Faith also has ancient links to the Ur-Flan - a besmirch on its name it can't shake. Gods like Pelor who was once just one aspect of the Old Faith has risen to prominence as cultural roles of worship have changed. Pelor is a shining beacon of stength and protection fromt he forces o evil knocking at every doorstep...he is more active and in these times people are attracted to the protection of such a deity.

    Amongst the rual folk the worship of Beory will never subdue - they will worhsip her as much as they worship Pelor...but the worship is more embedded in cultural festivities and on a personal level....just in the way Beory is less direct in her interaction with her followers. The Old Faith will dwindle I think but Beory's worship wont. Druids of Beory will become more the norm...druids who are independant and not part of the Old Faith.

    I know I havent been terribly eloquent - I plan to put these thoughts in an article but I hope they might have been interesting?

    (p.s excuse my typos!)
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:45 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Obad-Hai is an ancient god who for whatever reasons is able to grant his priests the powers of the druid class.


    Obad-hai is a servant of Beory, no?
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:47 pm  

    DMPrata,

    He means "in his campaign", where that is not as true as it generally is. In most interpretations, Obad hai (and often Berei) are servants of Beory or, at least, worshipped in conjunction with her. That's not the case in his campaign, but Obad hai can nevertheless grant druidic status to his priesthood.



    Wolfling wrote:


    Any other nature deities must have clerics..if u want power over the natural world pick the plant or animal domains.



    Whole heartedly seconded!
    CF Admin

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:12 pm  

    I disagree. Perhaps especially in 3.xE, druids seem like they are well suited to representing the "priests" of many Oerthly gods and religions.

    Alternatively, the spirit shaman and shugenja classes might be adequate. Do you think either of these fit the Oeridian agricultural gods?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:14 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    I disagree. Perhaps especially in 3.xE, druids seem like they are well suited to representing the "priests" of many Oerthly gods and religions.


    That's definitely my take on the matter.

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:47 pm  

    Druids certainly can be used that way. In fact, that is what the rules have encouraged since at least 2nd edition. Maybe even since UA in 1e. I just prefer the older view where druids are servants of nature, not of particular nature gods. IMHO, the latter is what nature domained clerics are for. IMC, all the druids are part of a mystery cult that centers around the worship of Beory. Obad Hai and Berei exemplify the two paths the druid can take in his or her calling. A number of other gods have subsidiary roles in the mysteries. But no druid IMC would say "I"m a druid of such and such a god." One is simply a druid or not a druid.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:56 pm  

    I can't say whether those classes are suitable or not, since I'm not familiar with them. I only own the PHB, DMG, and MM1 as far as 3.x rulebooks go. After 25 years of DMing, I've gotten arrogant enough to decide I don't really need any of WotC's other crap to run my game. The basic rules are a suitable framework for whatever else I feel like inventing on my own.

    But most of my priests are not of any adventuring class. They are experts, aristocrats, or commoners (depending on the situation). Spell casting priests (beyond 'church rituals' type stuff) are rare specialists, not the norm.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:37 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    DMPrata,

    He means "in his campaign", where that is not as true as it generally is. In most interpretations, Obad hai (and often Berei) are servants of Beory or, at least, worshipped in conjunction with her. That's not the case in his campaign, but Obad hai can nevertheless grant druidic status to his priesthood.



    thanks for clarifying my point Vormaerin, sorry for the confusion...I didn't mean that Obad-Hai is a servant power of Beory just that his priests are treated as druids in terms of the powers Obad-Hai can grant them. The reasons for this I have left unspecified in my mind at the moment.

    Of course I should have made it clear that all these thoughts are in no way canon (as you can probaly guess) just my take on earlier canon material and applied in a way that gives my setting the feel I think best.

    Obviously the druids are based on the historical group that existed in large areas of europe. Admittedly the records are sketchy but it would appear historical druids worshipped no one deity in particular - instead they revered a number of deities and spirits. I prefer to keep my Old Faith druids closer to this model. They revere Beory primarily and draw their power directly from her but they also give prayer to some of the other Flan deities. With this acceptance of more than one god it is no wonder the Old Faith had been so popular and ingrained for so long...the common person gives prayer to more than one deity and so the Old Faith is much more practical in this regards than a monothestic church.

    Also I personally feel that the whole point of the druid is that he gains his powers through his connection with the Oerth and thus Beory. No other deity has this connection to the Oerth and thus is unable to grant druidic powers. Obviously IMC Obad-Hai is the exception. Druids outside the Old Faith and Obad-Hai's faith do exist. They are usually demi-humans and often solitary and they too gain their power from Beory. Like the Old Faith - these independant druids may organise themselves in Circles...but such circles are comprised of any woodland agents...priests of ehlonna, berei, rangers, swanmays, treants, fey are just a few who may be involved in such groups. There is no organised hierarchy to them.

    mtg - IMC the spirit shaman appears in those cultures that practice ancestor worship - such as amongst the people of Ull, the WOlf and Tiger nomads and a few others.

    The Oeridian Wind Gods are another problem area for me...I just deleted a whole bunch of typing as my rambles on the wind gods belong in a seperate thread I think!

    One last thought is that I would like to see a book like the FR Faiths & Pantheons for Greyhawk with a deity specific prestige class for each god. This way some of the nature deities like Ehlonna and Phyton might have some druidic abilities such as trackless step for example yet having some of their own distinct abilities.

    Oh and don't forget this is all just 'IMC' - please don't be outraged by mydisrespect for canon! Smile
    CF Admin

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    Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:39 am  

    He apologizes for heresy? ;')

    That will get you nowhere in the Pale but is completely unnecessary on Canonfire!, no? When I joined GreyTalk, many posters proudly claimed the title of heretic, and as suggested by its title, at least one of the purposes of Canonfire is to take all the GH "canon" and alight it--sparking the flame of creativity amongst the online GH community.

    I too would love a book like Faiths & Pantheons. (The related FR 2e books similarly stoked my envy.) Actually, creating such a publication via the web could be an excellent project!

    We could adapt the format of Faiths & Pantheons and incorporate the material already produced on "Paladins of Greyhawk," GH-specific feats and prestige classes published in Dragon, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, old Oerth Journal articles, etc.

    In addition to prestige classes, I suggest devising a set of base character classes, after reviewing the cleric, druid, favored soul, shugenja, and spirit shaman.

    For example, to distinguish the singular mysteries of the Old Faith, a class might be devised for nature priests like those of Ehlonna, Berei, etc. that foregoes the wildshape ability but retains the ability to turn undead and has a distinctive list of spells.

    If I had all time to devote to this hobby, I might try to do exactly this--to make the rules serve the specific campaigns I want to run.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:10 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    One last thought is that I would like to see a book like the FR Faiths & Pantheons for Greyhawk with a deity specific prestige class for each god. This way some of the nature deities like Ehlonna and Phyton might have some druidic abilities such as trackless step for example yet having some of their own distinct abilities.


    mtg wrote:
    I too would love a book like Faiths & Pantheons. (The related FR 2e books similarly stoked my envy.) Actually, creating such a publication via the web could be an excellent project!


    Sad

    Well, it's not quite Faiths & Pantheons, and it is AD&D®-specific, but still....










    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:59 am  

    mtg wrote:
    He apologizes for heresy? ;')


    hehe well to be honest I was just covering myself and being polite...I'm not really sorry...it's a bad British trait to apologise when we don't mean it Happy

    I think a Greyhawk Faith & Pantheons project would be a great endeavour and I'd happily contribute but my cosmology IMC has been changed quite a lot. At the moment I'm planning on pillaging the FR sourcebook for suitable prestige classes to modify slightly into Greyhawk ones and also the Initiate feats. As a side note - Races of Destiny has feats for casters who worship a number of Greyhawk deities such as Boccob, Pelor, Fharlanghn and Hextor which are interesting.

    There are also a few prestige classes such as the Temple Raider of Olidammarra and Shining Blade of Hextor that are already Greyhawk specific
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    Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:07 pm  

    DMPrata, I like what I first looked at. Can you provide a general URL for your webspace? Is it on the Greyhawk Webring?

    The Temple Raider of Olidammarra seems alright, but I don't care for the basic idea of the Shining Blade of Heironeous. However, the Fist of Zuoken (Expanded Psionics Handbook) is spot on, IMO.
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    Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:27 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    DMPrata, I like what I first looked at. Can you provide a general URL for your webspace? Is it on the Greyhawk Webring?


    The link in my signature is as close to a general URL as I can give you. That PDF contains links to each of the various pantheon PDFs, all of which are stored on my cox.net web space. I have no web design skills, so there is no "home page" for the Deitybase. Issak asked me about hosting it on GHO several weeks ago, but I haven't heard back from him (hint, hint Wink ).
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