Reading of the People of the Testing, Sehanie's Moonbow and references to Celene's present isolationism, it is easy enough to get the idea that elves are doomed. Doomed to "fade" or "retreat" or move along to the Lendore Isles. Doomed so that they do not matter much in the present day Flanaess. I submit this is an incomplete reading.
The lie, IMO, is put to an elven "retreat" by the future history of Celene that sees that nation rise up as Velene to reforest much of the central west of the Flanaess. Greyhawk 2000, Dragon 277 at p. 48. Velene’s borders are roughly the Lortmils, the Velverdyva River and the Selintan River. See id at p. 50 (Furyondy note), p. 52 (Waybury note) and map of New Greyhawk.
While there will no doubt be those who choose to ignore Greyhawk 2000 as inconvenient, "poorly thought out" (in their opinion, of course) etc. It remains Greyhawk and canon if that name means anything.
The elves of Celene are not "fading." It appears they are perhaps waiting, perhaps beyond Sehanie's arch in the "otherworld," until it is time to take back the forest. _________________ GVD
Where is Greyhawk 2000 declared canon for the setting?
Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere.
Whatever its quality might be, there is nothing that sets it as canon.
What is really bad about this is, yet again, your selective presentation:
page 49,
"Likewise, the elves of Greyhawk 2000 have retreated into a reforested kingdom where they welcome no visitors at all. Their only contact with the rest of the world comes when they send out eco-terrorists with a mission to destroy the products of industry."
So in fact, in Greyhawk 2000, the elves have retreated.
And they have become a bunch of eco-terrorists.
Yeah, a proper fantasy trope there.
Where is Greyhawk 2000 declared canon for the setting?
Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere.
Whatever its quality might be, there is nothing that sets it as canon.
What is really bad about this is, yet again, your selective presentation:
page 49,
"Likewise, the elves of Greyhawk 2000 have retreated into a reforested kingdom where they welcome no visitors at all. Their only contact with the rest of the world comes when they send out eco-terrorists with a mission to destroy the products of industry."
So in fact, in Greyhawk 2000, the elves have retreated.
And they have become a bunch of eco-terrorists.
Yeah, a proper fantasy trope there.
No. And. No.
Canon, if the term is to mean anything, consists of all direct GH references, which are then distinguished by degrees. Example - Gord. And see discussion in other threads. Greyhawk 2000 is as canon as anything else. Certainly, given that it is the only future history, it is contradicted by nothing, antedating even the "magic is dying" future reference.
And -
As I noted - "Reading of the People of the Testing, Sehanie's Moonbow and references to Celene's present isolationism, it is easy enough to get the idea that elves are doomed. Doomed to "fade" or "retreat" or move along to the Lendore Isles. Doomed so that they do not matter much in the present day Flanaess. I submit this is an incomplete reading.
The lie, IMO, is put to an elven "retreat" by the future history of Celene that sees that nation rise up as Velene to reforest much of the central west of the Flanaess. "
The elves of GH2000 retreating into Velene - a reforested section of GH rather large in its extent - is not the same as elves retreating to the Lendore Isles or through the Moonbow. The latter sees elves vanishing from the Flanaess or moving to its outer edge. The former sees the elves building a much enlarged Celene in the heart of the Flanaess and then staying within that expanded realm - except when they send out their ecoterrorists! The two uses of the term "retreat" are distinct. Even with your fondness for absolutes, you know a word is read in context.
You want to identify "what is really bad?" Try again. _________________ GVD
At one point, WotC defined the D&D Gazetteer - the abridged version of the LGG - as binding for those working on "core" materials, with the idea that they wouldn't have to worry about anything else. I don't think even that much is binding for WotC designers any more.
Beyond that, we're left with:
Gygax canon: what Gygax recognized as being official Greyhawk for 1st edition AD&D, as opposed to his home campaign.
1998 Team Greyhawk canon: what Roger Moore, Anne Brown, and the rest of them canonized eight years ago.
Living Greyhawk canon: Things recognized as canonical by the triads and module writers for the RPGA Living Greyhawk campaign.
Paizo canon: what the publisher of Dragon and Dungeon recognizes as canonical for Greyhawk adventures and articles published in those magazines.
3e Core Setting: The hypothetical setting made up of only 3.5e core materials. Not recognizably Greyhawk, though it contains a few Greyhawk names.
Published canon: Anything published by the owner of the IP and not specifically declared non-canonical. This is the most liberal definition, but in the absence of a current ruling from WotC it's not wrong.
I think it's counterproductive to choose between these or other possibilities for Canonfire! purposes.
GH 2000 contradicts the Fading of Magic discussed in the 83 Boxed Set, which I don't think anyone's going to disagree with as being Canon. I'd regard it as suspect therefore.
If it'll help calm tensions, set GH 2000 as a possible alternate future (call it CSL future - since he hates the idea of the fading of magic ).
GH 2000 contradicts the Fading of Magic discussed in the 83 Boxed Set, which I don't think anyone's going to disagree with as being Canon. I'd regard it as suspect therefore.
Kind of a middle ground, IMO, as GH 2000 has lots of tech but it is mixed with magic. GH2000 may be the next stage after the "Fading Magic" era. _________________ GVD
Anyhoo, whatever this cult of Sehanine is up to, sending elves entering the Moonarch to an otherworld or on a 'retreat' to the Lendore Isles must be fishy. Lendore has recently succumbed to Sehanine and forced out all other races (what the LGG calls the Final Calamity). And they call Celene isolationist! The LGG says that some Celenians even suspect the People of the Testing as being behind the death of the Queen's consort, a vicious rumor that none of the anonymous People will try and refute. Talk about a scandal there! There is even stuff written about the Sehanites trying to get influence in Sunndi's rulership. Is this some greater plan for all olvenkind to withdraw until the 'smoke clears' so they can rebuild and reforest their old Flanaess kingdoms or is it merely a subversive coup to control all olvendom and thus turn the spotlight of the (pardon me) Seldarine from Correlon to his wife, Sehanine.
The 83 Glossography describes the era around 576 CY as the Epoch of Magic. If you have arcano-tech still present, what separates the Epoch of Magic from the present? The obvious answer is that from the POV of 988 CY, the distinction between the present and the Epoch of Magic is the magic - its relative abundance in the past and its scarcity in the present.
Which is supported by:
"During Smedger's time, magic was not a lost art, but, apprently, a fading one. Happily Smedger the Elder's curisosity and genius preserved a priceless relic from a world that no longer exists".
From what I recall of the timeline in GH 2000 - no mention was made to the Fading of Magic, which you've gotta admit, is a pretty big omission in a world where archano-tech is so prevelent.
The real answer, of course, is that GH 2000 wasn't intended to be a consistant future for the WoG, but as an illustration of how to do an archano-tech campaign, using GH as the backdrop.
Rather than rule it out entirely though - make it a possible future rather than the copper-fastened It Must Be future.
Hi Mortellan. Your comments made me wonder whether Onselven is a member of the People of the Testing. What do you think? From its descriptions in FtA, the Marklands, and Ivid, I imagined it as a mystery cult not favored in Celene -- perhaps different from the Fae Mysteries that the LGG evoked.
The 83 Glossography describes the era around 576 CY as the Epoch of Magic. If you have arcano-tech still present, what separates the Epoch of Magic from the present? . . .
The real answer, of course, is that GH 2000 wasn't intended to be a consistant future for the WoG, but as an illustration of how to do an archano-tech campaign, using GH as the backdrop.
Rather than rule it out entirely though - make it a possible future rather than the copper-fastened It Must Be future.
Magic wanes. Technology waxes. Then a mix occurs, more waxing and waning. GH2000 is far in the future with lots of room in between for stuff to happen. There is no incompatibility unless you see the waning of magic as a permanent state of affairs once it occurs and I don't think there is a textual basis for that.
Actually, I happened to be attending Winter Fantasies and Gencons back in the day and have first hand knowledge of GH2000 behind the scenes. It was seriously considered as relaunch of GH, comingled with Gamma World after a fashion. It never made it because a) there was internal opposition to GH as a stand alone setting in any form (which continues to this day) and b) other GH plans vying for attention. So, the decision was to hold in place and not go with GH2000. Interestingly, there was a map of the Flanaess circa GH2000 drawn up that was to accompany the abortive boxed set. _________________ GVD
Hi Mortellan. Your comments made me wonder whether Onselven is a member of the People of the Testing. What do you think? From its descriptions in FtA, the Marklands, and Ivid, I imagined it as a mystery cult not favored in Celene -- perhaps different from the Fae Mysteries that the LGG evoked.
What do you think?
I haven't pondered the PotT much except what I've just read recently. I think the cult of Sehanine did say it had some connection to the Fae but not the kinky stuff. As to known members the only one I think I've seen mentioned by name is some Elf in GHC. The name escapes me at the moment, sorry.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
).
