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    Canonfire :: View topic - Xerbo and Osprem
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    Xerbo and Osprem
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:20 am  
    Xerbo and Osprem

    I'm sure this has been discussed before, but recent conversations about mythology and cultural evolution have got me thinking about such things again... Osprem and Xerbo are oceanic dieties who also function as the travel and trade gods for the Suel. This is kind of odd, considering that the Suel empire as generally understood does not seem to have had much, if any, coastline. What do folks think about why this is? I can think of four reasons that are plausible.

    1) Lendor made the gods that way and everyone basically said "uh, right, whatever you say, boss".

    2) The Suel empire was bigger than we thought and they had substantial oceanic commerce with......someone.

    3) The Sea of Dust before the Twin Cataclysms had lots of rivers and some large lakes or a inland sea similar to the Aral, which served as the home of the sea gods.

    4) The Suel started somewhere else. Either over the ocean and they migrated across it or else on the coast of Oerik somewhere. Perhaps they were once living on the shores of the Dramidj and were driven south by something. And later the Baklunish moved in, either displacing whatever had driven the Suel south or filling in vaccuum left by their collapse for some other reason. This has the side advantage of explaining why the near albinos are living south of the dark skinned peoples...

    Thoughts on any of the above or on other options to explain?
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:11 am  

    Hi, I'm Eldiel, some kind of novice in these lands... (but not in Greyhawk...)
    I'd like to help you, if I could...

    Well, we must remember we are talking about Gods, ancient Gods, that have ancient cults. In our world a lot of gods may change their own portfolio, we have a lot of examples of this practice in greek or egyptian religions (maybe we we'll talk about this further). Maybe this two Gods were related with others aspects of life, and then, when the Suel empire grew and met the ocean they simply changed their own areas. I'm talking about the relationship between Suel and the people called Kersi, coming from the southern continent of Anakeri. These relationships are recognized since -6067 AC (-551 SD), so we could set here our supposed change of portfolio.

    Osprem is the goddes of LAW, PROTECTION, TRAVEL and WATER. Maybe her followers were traders, who did't even know the ocean, but when they met this enormous amount of water they simply saw a way of commerce, and they began to prey Osprem for good SEA-travels...

    Xerbo is a god who cares for animals, and this could be the more ancient part of his portfolio. It is possible that when the Suel began to travel by sea they needed to preserve themselves from sea monster... so they addressed to Xerbo these kind of prayers...

    what do you think about it? Happy
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:22 am  

    That's certainly reasonable. My main issue with that is that we don't really have any indication that the Suel empire ever got involved seriously in ocean trade. The Amedio, the southern extension of the Hellfurnaces, and the nations of Zahind all seem to be in the way (though the latter could be late comers easily enough).

    Also, the way the gods are portrayed makes them seem ocean gods first, whereas it would be a minor trait in the above example. Even after the twin cataclysms, the only seriously naval Suel are the Thillonrian barbarians. And Keoland to some extent.

    Still, its a viable 5th explanation.
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:21 am  

    Hi, here I am again...
    I went to control my data in order to find out where I saw this information about the Kersi and the Oerth 4th continent, AnaKeri: well, I've found them into Oerth Journal, #1. If you read the first 20 pages, there is a detailled history of Oerth, and you will find these news about the contacts between Suel and Kersi, and so, by them, with the ocean...
    Happy
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:51 am  

    Just to toss in two ideas. I recall reading, but not where, that Osprem at least was a late arival to the pantheon. Also, and perhaps you can check Braggi's rendition of Randy Richards map, the Imperium had a massive inland sea that disappeared into the sea of dust.
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:21 am  

    right. and this can also be a pre-condition for my theory: Osprem is a sea god, and he could also be a lake or a water god before the Suel met the people called kersi...
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:45 am  

    I've always taken the presence of the two Suel sea gods as being evidence for a large inland sea in the Suel basin. The Suel would have had trade contacts with the peoples of Zahind (who are likely to be the same as the Kersi mentioned in the Sea of Dust section of GH Adventures) and may even have conquered parts of the Zahindi coast for a time. There's also the albino sorcerors of Vulzar, who are very likely to be Suel - so the Suel may have migrated to the coast on that side too.

    However in both cases - but I don't see the Suel has having had enough of a maritime tradition through these routes to justify having two maritime gods in their pantheon.

    The salty inland sea theory is the best fit, I think (plus it adds some flavour to what the Imperium might have been like).
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:35 am  

    Don’t know if it was a typo, but Osprem is a she.

    For what it is worth, I wrote a couple of article involving Opreme including the heresy “Berceuse, the Song of Osprem,” http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=699

    She pops upon in other articles, so you could do an article search for more info. Check for Xerbo too.

    Quote:
    However in both cases - but I don't see the Suel has having had enough of a maritime tradition through these routes to justify having two maritime gods in their pantheon.

    The salty inland sea theory is the best fit, I think (plus it adds some flavour to what the Imperium might have been like).


    Late arrival helps. Possibly Xerbo could have been around for the Imperius, Osprem for the Migration and don't forget their son Akwamon (yuck), who perhpas could be limited to the legends of the northern barbarians. http://members.cox.net/dmprata/Deitybase.pdf has him accepted everywhere, but esp. around Lendor isle.
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:31 pm  

    I think the theory of the inland sea is the best: their ancient cult started near that great salty lakes, and then it naturally skip to the ocean... it seams reasonably... this process is well known in our religions too... it is an upgrade of these two gods portfolios.
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:23 pm  
    Re: Xerbo and Osprem

    Vormaerin wrote:
    2) The Suel empire was bigger than we thought and they had substantial oceanic commerce with......someone.


    Good topic. I definitely subscribe to #2 for several reasons.

    1> I think if the Suel truly have the long history that they are said to have (5K+ years) then they must have pushed outside of the "Sea of Dust Basin" at some point. In Dragon we have sources that say they fought a long war against the Fiery Kings in order to push east past the Crystalmists so I am assuming that they probably had a reason for this. (Their reasons for conquest/trade to the West, South and North have already been plied out?)

    2> At some point in time there was a valid reason for racial purity to become a social paradigm in the Suel Imperium. I think war and probably losing a war would be the most likely vector. (This doesn't mean they had a large sea faring force but the only reason NOT to think that would be if they never made it out of the "Sea of Dust Basin" and therefore never conquered a land area that contained a sea port.)

    3> I have put Dungeon's SCAP and soon STAP series of adventures into my Greyhawk continuity. If you do that then the most reasonable origin for Sasserine is an ancient seaport of Suel origin with it's most likely established time frame being soon after the Fiery King conflicts resolution. (Although it is possible that Sasserine is the Suel's first sea port ever, my druther is that it is the first "founded" Suel sea port.)
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:47 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Even after the twin cataclysms, the only seriously naval Suel are the Thillonrian barbarians. And Keoland to some extent.


    Not totally correct. The three big maritime nations - Lordship of the Isles, Sea Princes and Sea Barons have populations predominantly of Suel blood and at least in the first two Xerbo and Osprem are the predominate gods. Only Procan is more important in the Sea Barons and probably just because their culture is more overtly Oeridian. I would argue that the majority of Suel nations (and possibly populations) are maritime-based so it only makes sense that their gods would "evolve" as the post Twin Cataclysm Suel cultures did. Maybe they were already water or rain gods or maybe they completely adopted their water aspects after the destruction of the Empire.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:12 am  

    This question is best addressed from a meta-game perspective. Len Lakofka created the gods of the Suel pantheon for his own Lendore Isle campaign. Lendore Isle was then shoehorned into the southeastern Flanaess with the release of the 1980 WORLD OF GREYHAWK® folio, and, with Gary Gygax's editorial approval, Len's write-ups of the Suel deities were published in DRAGON®. Thus, in their real-world history, Xerbo, Osprem, and Akwamon were created as gods of a seafaring people. Len didn't start with the Suel Imperium in the Sea of Dust; he started with Lendore Isle and worked backwards.

    Paul Stormberg's "Creation Myths" post from GREYtalk (available here) suggests that Opsrem was begotten by Lendor as goddess of the sea. Whether or not Lendor's human "children" were traveling the sea yet, Lendor knew it was there and created a goddess for it. The Suel people would discover her eventually. Also from Paul's post, Xerbo was created by Lendor later, primarily as a god of commerce (the Suel equivalent of Zilchus, perhaps). It is possible that his aspect changed to include the sea as the Suloise migrated to coastal regions. It would seem that Xerbo came to supersede Osprem in many places, relegating her to a lesser role.

    Xerbo and Osprem definitely have an "interesting" relationship. They are brother and sister, both the divine offspring of Lendor. Their spheres of influence overlap greatly — to the point of redundancy — yet neither is subservient to the other (although, as stated earlier, Xerbo is generally more popular). At some point, though, these two mated and produced a son, Akwamon. Following are the relevant quotes from the Deitybase. (Note that most of this was either written by, or paraphrased from, Len Lakofka.)

    From "The Suel Pantheon: Osprem":
    Quote:
    Osprem has a son by Xerbo named Akwamon, the Suel deity of storms and life in the sea. Although Xerbo and Osprem are not married in any mortal sense, they sometimes quarrel like a husband and wife. While Osprem feels Xerbo is too harsh on helpless mortals, Xerbo counters with a scoff that mortals should not be given a free ride.


    From "The Suel Pantheon: Xerbo":
    Quote:
    Xerbo has a son by Osprem named Akwamon. Xerbo, and therefore his priesthood, is angered that Akwamon has chosen a different direction. Xerbo views Akwamon's support of frivolous adventures over the oceans as a betrayal and he partially blames Osprem.


    From "The Suel Pantheon: Akwamon":
    Quote:
    Osprem's clerics rail against those of Akwamon, forever attempting to force them to choose sides. Priests of Xerbo, on the other hand, view Akwamon's priests as the black sheep of the family, much too frivolous and carefree.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:13 am  

    Yes, I know about Aquaman and the origin of Lakofka's Suel dieties. For whatever reason, I've never liked much of anything "Leomund" wrote and this is no exception.

    I did mention that particular interpretation as option 1. I just don't find it particularly satisfying. I'd rather have an explanation that adds something to the understanding of the suel and/or the world. "Because Lendore said so" is certainly reasonable, but fails to add anything. Either the Suel as migrants or the inland sea option adds considerably more interesting options to the campaign.
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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:28 am  

    I'd say both to the Suel having contacts beyond mountains ringing their homeland AND that mountain-ringed basin having an inland sea (makes sense with high ground all around...).

    As for racial purity becoming a paradigm - I'd say that while that opinion may have been part of Suel society from the very beginning, it probably wasn't the majority "paradigm" until close to the end of the Imperium. The SB were, by no means an ancient or unanimously accepted organisation. They fact that they were set up at all suggest that ideals of racial purity were being somehow challenged (or at least perceived to be so).

    That's not to say that the Suel weren't cruel and expansionist of course. I'd say they had wars with pretty much all of their neighbours - including Suhfang and Zahind. The latter would have given them a route to the sea - as suggested by Erik Mona's description of Changar (from Bounds of the Oerth), with its mixed Zahindi/Suel populace.

    I'd even suspect that the geography of the Suel Basin influenced the Suel mindset. On one hand, you have an isolationist fortress mentality - a cradle of civilisation surrounded by savage barbarity (this could have mutated into a more virulant xenophobia and obsession with purity). On the other hand, there's the need and desire to strike out from the constraining limits of the homeland to embrace the wider world, whether peacefully or through conquest.
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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:51 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    I'd say both to the Suel having contacts beyond mountains ringing their homeland AND that mountain-ringed basin having an inland sea (makes sense with high ground all around...).


    Sounds good to me.

    Woesinger wrote:

    As for racial purity becoming a paradigm - I'd say that while that opinion may have been part of Suel society from the very beginning, it probably wasn't the majority "paradigm" until close to the end of the Imperium.


    I agree that the SB's foundation was probably an 'end game' Baklunish-Suel War thing, but I think their "Arayan" mind-set came from much further in their past. The creation of the derro was said to cause Jascar to abandon the Suel and I would imagine alienate a good majority of the good deities of the Suel pantheon, I don't remember the exact Dragon issue that establishes when that happened but it was thousands of years before their wars with the Baklunish. (Which says to me they hated dwarves and whoever they used to breed with dwarves just as much as the Baklunish.) And don't forget the skulks either... I suppose these could have been experiments with Suel lower castes but I kinda doubt it. Also even though it isn't canon exactly the idea of Suel using Binders to enforce their will on elemental creatures fits their persona as well.

    Woesinger wrote:

    That's not to say that the Suel weren't cruel and expansionist of course. I'd say they had wars with pretty much all of their neighbours - including Suhfang and Zahind. The latter would have given them a route to the sea - as suggested by Erik Mona's description of Changar (from Bounds of the Oerth), with its mixed Zahindi/Suel populace.


    Yeah I think they probably relied on their huge advantage with magic until the other cultures caught up to them. My guess is that the Rain of Colorless Fire probably freed several nations to the south and west from the Suel Imperium's shackles.

    Woesinger wrote:

    I'd even suspect that the geography of the Suel Basin influenced the Suel mindset. On one hand, you have an isolationist fortress mentality - a cradle of civilisation surrounded by savage barbarity (this could have mutated into a more virulant xenophobia and obsession with purity). On the other hand, there's the need and desire to strike out from the constraining limits of the homeland to embrace the wider world, whether peacefully or through conquest.


    Good one, that certainly has a very SB thought process to it. Although, I doubt peace ever really fit into the equation unless it was similar to the 'peaceful' way Spain took control of Hispaniola, or the Canaries, or South America, etc. I can totally see the first meeting between Suhfang and the Suel... "We worship the great elements and honor our divine ancestors." "Your inferior culture shall bow to our arcane might as your elemental masters bow to us!"
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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:20 am  

    I'm with Vormaerin on origins.

    I ignore Aquaman.
    I shift the sea trade portfolio of Xerbo to Osprem. Xerbo's creed in L2 makes his position as a deity of trade ridiculous. He obviously favors sea creatures over humans completely. (I will also note that all the worshipers, including the cleric!, of Kord in L2 are Lawful.)
    I consider Osprem closer to Zilchus than Xerbo.
    I treat Xerbo as an elemental deity, and leave Procan as a Chaos deity to explain the two of them roaming the oceans.
    Oh, and I consider Xerbo and Osprem prime reasons to reject the Oerth map in the Dragon Annual. Obviously a real ocean is needed, not merely some little land-locked sea.
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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:52 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    I ignore Aquaman.


    But he is family and not by some de minimus degree of consanguinity, so I am thinking: invite him to the party; hope he does not come; if he does, ignore him any way; and if he talks, get on his case for not bringing any canapes, etc. until he goes back back to being a wall flower. Happy Actually, I was also thinking of just moving the first letter of his name to the last and we can call him qua-Mona. Maybe then he can be a hep cat.
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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:39 am  

    Well, its a given that they had wars with all their neighbors. I think you would be hardpressed to find any real world nation that hasn't. Well, barring some modern creation with no significant history yet. You don't need to be consistently cruel and expansionistic to get into wars regularly.

    I'm inclined to think that 2, 3, and 4 are all somewhat true. Its highly likely that the Suel migrated into their fortress of Solitude, if for no other reason that pretty much everyone moved in from somewhere else. I favor around or across the Dramidj, since it makes more sense for the Suel to be northerners than southerners (given their coloration). Of course, they could have just been created in situ by the gods, but I think creationism's role in GH is prior to the modern races.

    Once they crossed the Sulhauts into their new homeland, they settled on the shores of an Aral Sea type place and found the land crisscrossed with many rivers. This led to waterways dominating trade.

    Finally, the Suel attempted to expand out of their basin to the southern seas, though I don't think they were ever major players in the southern oceans. The Albino sorcerors of Vulkar were west fleeing tribes escaping the RoCF, imho.

    IMHO, Xerbo's favoritism to sea life is the relatively recent innovation, a result of his losing worshippers to Zilchus and Procan. And the break up with Osprem either contributed to ro resulted from this harshness towards humans.
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    Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:04 am  

    I never really thought of the Suel Imperium as being land-locked, particularly considering the Suel sea deities. I always imagined the Suel had control of the shore southeast or southwest of the Sea of Dust, yet were not a major sea power; possibly due to the terrain leading up to the shore being very rough (mountainous, or other wise rugged).

    As to the Suel basin, of course there were waterways. Cities grow up around sources of water for both drinking and irrigating crops. There may have been an inland sea there as well, but it doesn’t really matter if there was or not; it would just be a feature of the land to either include or not. Major waterways are very important to the growth of an empire as powerful as that of the Suel was supposed to be. With the level of magic they eventually developed terra-forming would even be an option, but early on basic waterways would serve many purposes and would be sought out as permanent sites of habitation. None of this is anything new to anyone I would imagine, but there it is. The entire surface is dust now, but deep beneath the ashes lay underground waterways and aquifers of unknown size; maybe even a “sunless sea”.

    I would have to agree in that Xerbo makes a very odd commerce god, exactly for the reason that he cares more for the sea and its inhabitants than he does for any land-based humans. I imagine Xerbo is more of a sailors’ and fishermen’s deity- a deity for those who live their lives at sea or depend on it. Those who take advantage or do not respect the sea get punished of course.

    Osprem is a much more appropriate commerce deity, and like others she also reminds me of Zilchus to some degree in her attitudes.

    The far western edge of the Flanaess has lots of potential for development. When I think of that region, I mainly think of the Baklunish lands as they actually survived roughly intact and have returned to a state approaching normalcy. The Suel basin and surrounding area also hold a good amount of potential as a “lost land” for adventuring in.

    Akwamon...not worthy of comment. Phaulkon rules the skies and the weather, though I imagine Xerbo has an agreement with Phaulkon as to who has power over storms at sea. Among the Suel pantheon there is as much need for a "god of storms at sea" as there is for a "god of invocation magic". Too specialized in my opinion, and already covered by other deities. And besides, Akwamon only reminds me of a Dr. Katz episode.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:51 pm  

    Perhaps Xerbo is the commerce deity because as the suel imperium decayed the suel merchants and acceptable ethics became more cut-throat and brutal.

    Perhaps the merchants felt Osprem would disaprove of their ethical choices and philosophy while xerbo's "survival of the fittest" doctrine suited them just fine, thank-you very much. Wink

    This shift from "fair trade" to "exploitive trade" could be part of the reason for the estrangement, rather then a sea conflict perhaps it is more of a difference of trade values and the philosophy of commerce.
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    Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:23 pm  

    The problem is, Xerbo's attitude is "survival of the fittest sea creature." Humans come in a distant second on that.
    Further, Xerbo's interest end where water ends. Unless the merchants carry out all their business onboard, Xerbo wouldn't have anything to do with them.
    Fishermen placating him, sure. But merchants? No way.
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    Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:52 pm  

    All trade is exploitive to some degree. Merchants will make money as they can, and sometimes however they can. The only time ethics gets into it is in offering poor quality merchandise dressed up to look like higher quality goods, or in using underhanded tactics to do away with competitors. That is less a matter of who the deity of commerce is and more a matter of what alignment the merchant is.

    Osprem is more a deity of sea voyages and protector of those who embark upon them, and also a protector of the waterways. Xerbo is pretty much a Suel translation of Poseidon. He's got that sea creature thing going("Unleash the Kraken!!!"), as well as people who travel the seas seek his favor in the hopes that something bad won't happen to them, as aopposed to Opsrem who has it as a goal to protect sea farers. Sea commerce is very distinct from land commerce, so Xerbo might not fill the role as THE commerce god among the Suel. On open ocean waters Xerbo seems a good choice, but on inland seas and rivers, Osprem seems the better choice. Then there is the land commerce, so perhaps another deity should overall adopt the commerce title and merly relegate the sea commerce and waterway commerce to Xerbo and Osprem.
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    Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:23 pm  

    Actually, given their coloration and the nature of Oerth, I think the Suel probably migrated from the Underdark. There are plenty of seas and waterways there.

    Before they were driven into the Underdark, they were probably the same race as the blue-black skinned people who live south and west of the Sea of Dust today. The "kinky" hair of the Suel makes me think they aren't necessarily a "caucasian" people, despite their coloration.

    I also assume they once controlled all of the Zahind region, and probably more besides - Vulzar and possibly Vania as well. The Sea of Dust area might have been where their empire was reduced to rather than where they originated.

    The racial supremacy of the Scarlet Brotherhood originated, I think, as eugenics with no particular racial bias; they (the noble houses, at least) bred their children with an eye on magical or other talents. Arranged marriages were the norm, controlled by the women Bene Geserit style. Most of the migrant Suel continued this tradition, as evidenced by the Neheli interbreeding with elves for example. By the same token, I think Zagig's mother picked his father for more than political reasons - she was deliberately trying to create a wizard of unusual talent, even if his father didn't realize how much talent was in his own bloodline.

    The creation of the skulks from the Suel untouchable caste is also evidence of their concern for breeding themselves for specific purposes. They took a group of people (of pure Suel blood, mind) who were seen as having an affinity toward thievery and enhanced this trait magically.

    I think it's almost certain that the derro were created from dwarven slaves bred with Suel slaves. I don't think the Suel ever had a problem with enslaving others of their race.

    It was only among the Scarlet Brotherhood that they decided that breeding for excellence meant only breeding with others of Suel descent, and this was I think mainly because of the Brotherhood's mania for recreating the Suel Empire of old. No one else is particularly interested in that project, but the Brotherhood believes that if the Imperium is ever to be born again the pure Suel blood must be preserved.

    Other Suel don't, and never did, care about that. They breed not for Suelness, but for power. Physical power, magical power, dexterity or stealth, whatever - depending on one's social caste.

    Xerbo's focus on aquatic life may parallel Fortubo's focus on dwarves - that is, he was originally much more friendly toward the Suel, but turned away from them due to past atrocities. Perhaps they experimented on aquatic creatures as they did on dwarves, creating some hideous hybrid of human slave and locathah that may have thankfully died out, or mostly died out. Or maybe they created koalinths from hobgoblins, or some other familiar race.
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    Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:40 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    The problem is, Xerbo's attitude is "survival of the fittest sea creature." Humans come in a distant second on that.


    I don't see xerbo that way, humans are just another creature that competes, humans deserve no favors because there human but that doesn't mean xerbo harms them.

    Humans simply take their chances like everything else and the cream rises to the top in the struggle of life.
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    Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:18 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:


    Not totally correct. The three big maritime nations - Lordship of the Isles, Sea Princes and Sea Barons have populations predominantly of Suel blood and at least in the first two Xerbo and Osprem are the predominate gods.


    The islands ruled by the Lordship of the Isles were settled by the Suel and remain strongly Suel in character despite some immigration from the Great Kingdom during the time it dominated the islands. The Sea Princes are, essentially, the same group as Keoland even though they broke away about 200 years ago.

    However, I think the So designation for the Sea Barons is a typo. The description of the nation indicates that it had a Flan population prior to the establishment of the Sea Baronies by the Overking. There is nothing in the write up to support an assertion of Suel ethnic dominance in those islands.

    Still, it does seem that the Suel have more of an affinity for the sea than any other group in the Flanaess. The Scarlet Brotherhood, Keoland, Sea Princes, Lordship of the Isles, and Thillonrillian barbarians are all strongly influenced by Suel traditions. So is Hardby, actually. And further, in Keoland the bulk of the Suel settlement seems to have been close to the coast or along the Sheldomar River, which is navigable to the sea. The Oeridians seem to hold most of the inland territories in the early days and the Flan were tolerated on the far inland fringe.

    I like the inland sea lost to the Rain of Colorless fire, but I doubt that is enough to justify two sea gods and this bias towards the oceans. I suspect they may have originally lived on islands or the coast and moved to the Sea of Dust region later. The sea may have remained a very strong element of popular suel culture, with the inland sea being a surrogate for the real one. Or they may have controlled the larger territory that Rasgon postulates.

    But the idea that the Suel were landlocked or indifferent to the sea certainly seems to be quite false.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:27 pm  

    Crag wrote:


    I don't see xerbo that way, humans are just another creature that competes, humans deserve no favors because there human but that doesn't mean xerbo harms them.

    Humans simply take their chances like everything else and the cream rises to the top in the struggle of life.


    Well, Xerbo's faith seems to teach that men don't belong in the sea except to protect sea life and those who do go there for other reasons deserve no help or succor. I think the L2 write up for him is even harsher, but its been a long time since I read L2.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:15 am  

    ...and now it is time to go all HERETIC on this subject. Shocked

    So, the Suel basin was the seat of the Empire, the traditional and original land of the Suel Imperium, which of course got nuked.

    Now, say that the Suel Imperium(in it's magnanimous brutality) had also conquered the lands of Zindia or had colonies there, thus gaining access to some large tracts of high rent ocean-side property.

    And perhaps, just perhaps, the Suel adopted one or both of the Zindian water gods and identified them with themselves(as any obviously superior Suel would do) and these deities are now known as Xerbo and Osprem. In this instance Osprem seems the more likely deity to actually be of Suel origin and Xerbo could have been adopted once the Suel become a sea power in the south.
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    Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:44 am  

    i've enjoyed reading the thoughts on this thread and as such I can't keep my oar out so to speak (hehe ...get it?)

    My initial feelings regarding Xerbo and Osprem was a relationship similar to that between Poseidon and Ino Leucathee in The Odyssey. Poseidon is a wrathful tempestuos god and Ino would often placate him on behalf of sailors and people at trouble on the seas soothing his rage with her calming words.

    This for me is how Xerbo and Osprem interact. I don't view Xerbo as a deity of trade in particular but a deity who is prayed to to placate him during a sea journey. Osprem is also prayed to to placate Xerbo as the goddess of water voyages.

    The only sea trade that Xerbo is worshipped in regards to is piracy. Please note though Xerbo is not the god of piracy just worshipped by pirates. Xerbo's link to wealth in my eyes is more appropriate when linked to the riches lying at the bottom of the sea from wrecked ships. Xerbo often likes to sink ships to gain their gold where it can sit in the watery depths...I imagine him to be quite a covetous god in this regard. Pirates fit into the survival of the fittest mentallity as opposed to the lawful outlook of Osprem. Maybe they throw a small portion of their booty to placate him.

    I have no doubt in my mind that the SUloise had contact with seas or oceans during their long history. I don't know about this bunch of odd lands everyone has been mentioning but it is enough for me that they must have had contact with the ocean.

    For starters the barbarians of the Thillonian Peninsula are masters of the seas....you don't learn those skills overnight or even over a couple of centuries...they are skills honed over much longer times ...especially the skills of ship crafting. Perhaps the barbarians had already had long exposure to the coastal waterways.

    I also like the idea that Xerbo is another god who has turned away from his people in light of some attrocity...perhaps he has always favoured the lower castes from Suel Barbarians were drawn from?

    So IMC

    Xerbo - god of the sea, sea life, (material wealth - less of a actual portfolio aspect and more of a by product of his nature) (N)
    Osprem - goddess of sea trade and sea journeys, patroness of sailors (LN[G])

    As The Suloise sea gods are the only gods of trade it seems, then that might imply that the Suel peoples of old imported luxurious items from afar. Good Xerbo was only to pleased to covetously bring to his watery domain.

    i've been toying with the idea of making Osprem NG to make her a more benign deity...in this manner trade to Osprem is based on fairness as opposed to a LN Osprem qho is more about mainting laws and protocols. Perhaps LG would be a middle ground.

    Alternatively...perhaps Xerbo was an older deity who existed outside the Suel ( I like Samwise's idea of him being an elemental being or maybe an ancient elevated dragon turtle) and was adopted into their worship later when they came into more contact with the oceans...Osprem was maybe a goddess of trade before a goddess of the sea but this seems unlikely as nautical imagery seems so fundamental to her.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:58 pm  

    Dredging up another thread!

    Vormaerin wrote:
    ...Osprem and Xerbo are oceanic dieties who also function as the travel and trade gods for the Suel. This is kind of odd... I can think of four reasons that are plausible...

    4) The Suel started somewhere else... This has the side advantage of explaining why the near albinos are living south of the dark skinned peoples...


    -Hah! I've always wondered about that myself; my explanation was that the primitive Suel homeland was triple canopy forest, making them light-skinned (in the real world, Congo pygmies are a lot lighter skinned than the neighboring Bantu). That fits in with explanation #3:

    Vormaerin wrote:

    3) The Sea of Dust before the Twin Cataclysms had lots of rivers and some large lakes or a inland sea similar to the Aral, which served as the home of the sea gods...




    Eldiel wrote:
    ... In our world a lot of gods may change their own portfolio...

    Osprem is the goddes of LAW, PROTECTION, TRAVEL and WATER. Maybe her followers were traders, who did't even know the ocean, but when they met this enormous amount of water they simply saw a way of commerce, and they began to prey Osprem for good SEA-travels...

    Xerbo is a god who cares for animals, and this could be the more ancient part of his portfolio. It is possible that when the Suel began to travel by sea they needed to preserve themselves from sea monster... so they addressed to Xerbo these kind of prayers...


    -That's the strongest reason; I didn't notice anyone mention that Wee Jas picked up two portfolios over time:

    1) Fire (after some deity named Rennet got whacked);

    2) Death (after the ROCF).

    BTW, I've never heard of this Akwamon (Aquaman); I'll look into it when I get the cahnce. That's why I'm here!
    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:05 pm  

    Pyremius actually stole Ranet's dominion over fire, not Wee Jas.

    My theory on Suel skin tone was that they were enslaved underground by illithids millennia ago before winning free. Maldin has them migrating from Luna instead.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:33 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Pyremius actually stole Ranet's dominion over fire, not Wee Jas...


    -Oops.

    Same point, tho'; portfolios change.
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