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    Canonfire :: View topic - Qualtaine Line of Power
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    Qualtaine Line of Power
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:09 pm  
    Qualtaine Line of Power

    Does Earl Querchard of Sterich have a last name? Is it Emondav? If so, I though his line was from Geoff and the Qualtaine family? Is he related to Owen of Geoff? How far removed? When was Sterich founded... 600 or 800 years ago?

    Aside from them being very close friends, what is the relationship between King Kimbertos Skotti and Querchard? I assume that they must be of similar ages. If Sterich is only loosely a vassal of Keoland, how can Skotti promote him from Earl to Marquis?

    When did Querchard take political power of Sterich? He was the ruler in CY 576 according to the origianl gazetteer. I get the impression that he was in his mid to late 30s in CY 591. Do you agree?

    Please and thank you,
    Skech
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    Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:43 pm  

    Great questions.

    The former earl should have a last name, and it might be Emondav, especially if you translate Dren as "de" "von" "van" "di" etc.

    To then reconcile with Querchard being of the ruling house of Qualtaine, one would hold that Emondav is a noble family of that house (clan). However, this way raises the question of Resbin's maiden name. While it seems right for her to assume Querchard's surname, it make me wonder about her own.

    In the WoG boxed set, Querchard was "of the same bloodline as the Grand Duke" of Geoff. Later texts have maintained this basic point.

    According to Gary Holian's article in LGJ 2, Sterich was founded about 800 years ago, in -230 CY. (Greg V. appears to have got its age wrong.) However, the LGG notes, "with the help of the sylvan elves of the forests and the gnomes of the Stark Mounds, the Geoffites erected Gorna more than nine hundred years ago." Something surprising to me because I'd presumed Sterich was older than Geoff. Instead, that land was founded by "migrating Suel and Oeridians who befriended the native Flan tribes." Not until 316 CY was it "peacefully incorporated into Keoland, its nominal leader gaining the title of Grand Duke of Geoff."

    Regarding Kimbertos and Querchard's friendship, I think part of it derived from the sympathy between Kimbertos being a powerful ranger and Querchard being a powerful bard (in the 1e sense; he was a 9th level bard--beyond his fighter and thief levels).

    IIRC, it was Sargent who devised the idea that Kimbertos had despaired over Querchard (Sterich's) independence. This makes me think that Querchard was significantly above the 30-something (in the 590s CY) that you suggest. I think I prefer placing him in his late 40s to early 50s.

    Note, this likely age makes it unlikely that he lacked heirs because such would be noteworthy and was not suggested until the LGG introduced Resbin Dren Emondav, afaik. Someone should check whether she was named in an earlier publication (perhaps GDQ?).

    Finally, Sterich has always been "nominally a vassal of Keoland," which I interpret to mean legally. Practically (politically), however, Sterich's wealth, distance from Niole Dra, and close ties with the Grand Duchy of Geoff made it impossible for the king to dictate Sterish policy as "easily" as in the kingdom's heartlands. Basically, the king needed his earl to agree, or else likely start a highly undesirable internal conflict.

    Thus, only when Querchard lost almost everything was the king able to get his way and "promote" the former earl. Thinking about this, it seems likely that Querchard bore a serious grudge. Perhaps he welcomed the Malgoth into his dreams... !
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:14 pm  

    Here's how I've addressed these issues in my own game. This may or may not be consistent with canon:
    • Querchard Emondav was born in 538 CY, making him 53 in 591 CY.
    • Querchard became Earl upon the death of his father, Querail, in 558 CY (at age 20).
    • Querchard married a Flan woman, Resbin Dren, in 567 CY.
    • Querchard's late father was second cousin to Kimbertos Skotti of Keoland (on his father's side) and first cousin to Owen of Geoff (on his mother's side). Thus, Kimbertos is Querchard's second cousin once removed, and Owen is his first cousin once removed.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:03 pm  

    Thanks to both mtg and DMPrata for their insight and help. I really do appreciate such an in-depth reply. So often one can be flattly ignored.

    Just FYI: I made a post not too long ago regarding the "Speaking Stones". They are supposedly based off of Chatdemon's personal campaign at the merging of the Davish and Javan rivers. I finally found the name of the isiand there,...

    Avenstane.

    It's mentioned in the LGG on page 151. Okay, there's no info about it, but at least I have a canon name for it. Happy
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:17 am  

    Scholars of the Sheldomar - do you know what'd be a really useful article for CF or OJ?

    A list of the Great Houses of Keoland and her daughter realms, including a list of members, scions, bannermen etc perhaps in the style of the listings of the Houses of Westeros at the back of the Song of Ice and Fire books* (when I have time I want to finish my attempt to do this for the Great Kingdom).

    We know about the Rhola and the Neheli - but what about the Qualtanes and the Emondravs and all the other nobles?

    The Gauntlet has been thrown down... Smile

    P.

    * Just finished A Feast for Crows - and now clinically need for A Dance of Dragons to be released. Laughing
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    Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:36 am  

    The Song of Ice and Fire is a great series. At least what I have read of it. I am about to start Storm of Swords. There are alot plot ideas inthe series that could be used in greyhawk.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:56 am  

    According to Dungeon #117, Qualtaine was the first Earl of Sterich and he was of the Noble house of Geoff. I'll assume Qualtaine is his first name. I'll also assume that he is not the 1st son of the family, thus he moved to Sterich to make his own mark and title.

    What if his last name (or family name) came from "emon" (meaning "originally of the clan of", like mtg suggested: da, de, van, etc.), and his original Geoff clan name was "Dav"? This could explain the Dav"ish" river and might have originally been written like "emon-Dav" after he distinguished himself in Sterich!

    What if Emondav is Querchard's last name?

    What if his wife's name was just Resbin Dren (before marriage)?

    Did Qualtaine name Sterich? Who did? The Flan? Or was it just a bastardization of Qualtaine's personal motto.. "Stay Rich!"? Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:56 am  

    Look! There's a gauntlet on the ground! Shocked

    I sure hope somebody decides to pick it up. Not only would this make a great OJ article(OJ is ALWAYS looking for great articles), but this is exactly the type of expansion that Greyhawk needs in my opinion. Who are the people of influence in the Flanaess anyways? Everybody knows who the main rulers are, but the main rulers are not usually who pc's get to interact with. Rulers of provinces? Possibly. Members of powerful families? Much more probable. A family tree graphic for each noble house would be pretty dang awesome if you ask me. Contact Rick at oerthjournal (at) gmail (dot) com if you want to undertake this project. We will help with the presentation however we can. Perhaps somebody could work out the details while somebody else makes a nice family tree graphic?

    This type of article would be great for campaign ploting. One example from a campaign I played in was that an npc who adventured with our party from about 3rd level on was the son of a noble of Keoland, perhaps even of the king himself! We never found out, but he seemed to know his way around the nobility very well. He was sort of a black sheep I guess, but an interesting character with literally dozens of plot strings hanging off of him due to the connections he had and who he might have been.

    P.S.: Woesinger gets a bisket!


    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:59 pm  

    Hi Skech.

    Your conclusions seem fine. Here's some feedback.

    Rather than hold Qualtaine to be the first name of the first earl of Sterich, I prefer it to be that person's family name.

    I think this family helped settle Sterich but imagine it less a noble house of Geoff and more a Keoish (Oeridian) noble family that married one of the daughters of Geoff's Grand Duke and later founded Istivin.

    Your idea about "emon" seems fine although personally I find it too long for the meaning you suggest. Also, the word reminds me of Tolkien's "amon" (hill, I think) and keeps seeming Celtic (Irish). However, I like your seizing the "Dav" part of the word and may be convinced. Maybe Emondav means son of the river?

    I really don't like the idea of Resbin's last name only being Dren, however, the first name sounds terrible too, IMO. Also, you suggest her background is Flan. Am I the only one who interpreted her as Olman, possibly from Xamaclan?

    Finally, for Sterich itself, I think the word is the Keoish pronounciation of an old Flan name.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:11 pm  
    Re: Qualtaine Line of Power

    Skech wrote:
    Does Earl Querchard of Sterich have a last name? (snip)Is he related to Owen of Geoff? How far removed? When was Sterich founded... 600 or 800 years ago?


    The LGG took the vague relationship between Geoff and Sterich and confused it further, then the LG Geoff people made it even more messed up.


    "The Earl [Querchard] maintains good relations with th Grand Duchy of Geoff (being of the same bloodline as the Grand Duke, this is not too suprising), and some trade is carried on with the Yeomanry via the Javan River" WoG p.36

    “Settled in as a client state of Keoland by relatives of the grand duke of Geoff, Sterich was founded as an earldom with the primary purpose of creating a stable political power with easy access to the mines of the surrounding hills and mountains.” LGG p.? (Sterich)


    The original version of this passage in WoG (p. 36) implied only that the then current (CY 576) Grand Duke of Geoff and Earl of Sterich were relatives. The LGG translated this relationship backwards to the founding of Sterich. Note that whereas the LGG says that Sterich was settled by relatives of the grand duke of Geoff, it gives c. –242 CY as the date of settlement of Sterich and 316 CY as the date of incorporation of Geoff and the creation of the title of Grand Duke. By having Sterich settled five hundred years before there was a Grand Duke, but claiming that relatives of the Grand Duke did the settling, the LGG made rather awkward the meaning of the relationship. I assume that the LGG meant to say that those who settled Sterich were relatives of those who would much later become the line of Grand Dukes of Geoff.

    "The Grand History of Geoff", found on the Living Greyhawk Geoff Website, further confuses the issue. Focusing on the fact that the first Earl of Sterich was related to the Grand Duke of Geoff, they assume that Sterich was not settled until after Geoff was a vassal state of Keoland. Thus, they have heeded the text but ignored the dates given in the LGG. They say “c. 330 CY Sterich is settled as a client state of Keoland by a mix of Gyri and Keolanders. Edywain’s [the Grand Duke of Geoff] nephew is appointed Earl of Sterich by the King of Keoland.”

    Not surprisingly, Geoff’s nobility also have blood ties with Keoland. “Hugo of Geoff, related distantly to the nobility of Keoland, is the putative leader of the order.” LGJ1, p.9


    My version of the settlement of Sterich is still in development (I need to integrate Samwise's timelines) but the last version went like this...

    Annexation of Sterich
    The Sheldomar Valley, though fertile, has never had much in the way of mineral resources. The metals, both useful and precious, of Keoland
    have always come from the mountainous lands that surround it (72). Late in the 53rd Century (SD), the metals came principally from gnomes and dwarves in the hills of the southern and central Ule’ek lands. As human populations grew, these traditional sources proved increasingly inadequate to supply the farmers and soldiers of Keoland. The shortage of metals, particularly iron, had begun to disrupt the economy and the orderly growth of the lands, and the topic had been of increasing concern to the Regents of the 53rd Century. The annexation of the Javan states alleviated the worst of the problem, for it brought the Sheldomar economy into extensive contact with the gnomes of the Good Hills (73) and the dwarves of the Little Hills (74). The towns of Flen, Cryllor, and Longspear quickly became centers of mineral exchange (74). The noble-sponsored merchants of Keoland purchased the metal goods that the demi-humans of the hills brought to market. In return, the demi-humans received all manner of agricultural fare (72), such as grains, rice and grape wines, tobacco, hemp ropes, linen and cotton cloths, and burlap sacking, as well as the meats and cheeses produced by the herdsmen of the Sheldomar.

    From the people of the Javan, King Mandros soon learned of the land of Sterich. By this time, the Mielec Oerid that had conquered the valley of the Sterich (62) had established a small but strong nation. It was based, as Keoland was, on an elite cavalry and common infantry army supported by farmers and herders. Relations with the dwarves of the Crystalmists had begun shortly after conquest, and considerable trade had developed. Keoland eagerly sought knowledge of this trade. A diplomatic mission was sent to Istivin with the purpose of negotiating permission for Keoish merchants to trade in the city.

    The Oerid of Sterich had become feudal lords, and bore little memory of the forced retreat their ancestors had made from the plains of the Sheldomar. When presented with an offer of substantial tribute simply for allowing foreign merchants to trade in their city, they readily accepted. No doubt their initial suspicions were calmed by the fact that the current Regent was an Oerid like themselves, albeit of an old Sheldomar house (68).

    The Sterich soon found themselves the prosperous middlemen in exchanges between the dwarves of the Jotens and the humans of Keoland. Human merchants sought not only utilitarian metals like iron and copper. What had once been a collection of petty states dominated by a warrior-king and horsemen-nobles had by now grown to a large nation, with an exalted Regent and a wealthy nobility. The rulers of this bountiful land desired fine things for themselves - precious metals and gems fashioned into beautiful and expensive items, treasures from foreign lands (75). They sought the silver, gold, and electrum of the mountains, and paid for them with food, drugs, and cloths. Relations were good between Keoland and Sterich, fostered by the non-aggressive postures of the Keoish, and their warm, if superior, welcome to this new nation. Considerable intermarriage of nobility between the nations would take place over the next century.

    After a decade of trade, the humans of Keoland had gained the trust of the dwarves of the Jotens. The elderly King Mandros died in SD 5280 (CY -236) and rule passed to a Rhola Suel, Regent Luschan I (76). As the scion of the Gradsul Rhola house, Luschan had many allies among the dwarves of southern Ulek. Four years into his reign, the new Regent sent a group of carefully chosen dwarves on a diplomatic tour of the dwarven lands neighboring Sterich. Officially, it was just a visit of state to foster trade and good will. Secretly, the Ulek delegation had been instructed to sound out the Jotens dwarves on the possibility of opening direct trade with Keoland, eliminating the Sterish middlemen in Istivin. Although the Jotens dwarves were receptive, and understood the profits to be made, they were cautious. The Sheldomar was a very lucrative market, but it was the Sterish with whom they had to live as neighbors. The Jotens dwarves doubted that a distant Keoland could guard trade routes from the Jotens giants without the assistance of the Sterish. Word of the negotiations soon found its way to the Sterish King, who was greatly angered. He immediately placed restrictions on the travel of foreigners in Sterich, and demanded that the Regent increase the amount of tribute paid in return for allowing trade with the dwarves. Instead, Regent Luschan cut off all trade and diplomatic relations with Sterich. In the face of considerable pressure from their subjects to resume trade, the two rulers stared each other down, neither willing to make the first move.
    Neither side had called for negotiation after a year, when the hand of Istus intervened. Giant-led forces of humanoids from the Jotens began raiding Sterich. This was hardly unusual, for such raids had occurred from time immemorial in the lands (77). What was unusual was that the Sterish King received little support from his nobles to repel the raiders. The noblemen sent few or poorly trained troops to the King’s banner, thinking by their inaction to force him to negotiate with the Sheldomar Regent. When the raiders routed the King’s feeble army, the raids turned into an invasion that headed directly for Istivin. By the time the recalcitrant nobles realized their mistake, the capital was already cut off from any relief forces that could be sent. The invaders settled into a siege of the city and picked off the forces of the nobles as they arrived, one at a time.

    By all estimates, the invading forces that year were larger and better organized than any in memory. And it was extremely unusual for them to be conducting a siege of the Sterish capital, rather than simply looting and burning in the provinces. Some historians claim that the shadowy powers behind the giants in the region had learned of the trade difficulties between the nations. They speculate that the goal of the invasion was to capture the capital and then conduct their own negotiations with the Sheldomar Regent, allowing him access to the dwarves in return for his paying tribute to them.

    Regardless of the intent of the invaders, the Sterish King was killed while defending his capital. The fighting continued and several months later his only heir was also slain in combat. At that point, the government of Sterich collapsed. Numerous nobles declared themselves the ruler of all Sterich, but none had authority beyond his own fief. It looked as though the giants and humanoids would indeed take Istivin. At that point, Regent Luschan I of Keoland made overtures to one of the Sterish nobles who was in contention for the throne. The nobleman had recently married his daughter to a powerful Keogh lord and was known to be favorably disposed to the Keoish (78). He was offered the following conditions: The Regent would support his claim to the throne of Sterich and would send troops to crush the invasion. In return, the noble would pledge his fealty to the Lion Throne. He could gain Sterich as a dependent Earldom, or loose it as a free state overwhelmed by invaders. After a short deliberation, he traveled to Niole Dra for his investiture as Earl. He returned to Sterich with an army led by his Keoish son-in-law.
    The large Keoish army swiftly defeated the invaders. The new Earl set about making the land stable again. He had extracted from Regent Luschan the promise of exclusive control over the plainslands within Sterich, and he used his new power to consolidate his support among the Sterish nobility by recognizing the land claims of only those who swore fealty to him. He soon proved a canny and able ruler.

    Regent Luschan had granted the Earl control over the land of Sterich, and in truth the Lion Throne was little interested in the land itself. Rather, it wanted a stable base from which to exploit the mineral wealth of the region (79). It left claims on the farms and woodlots to the Sterish, but the Regent began actively enfeofing mining communities in the hills and mountains. Likewise, the Regent granted charters to negotiate with each of the many dwarven communities in the mountains, and rewarded those who reached profitable arrangements with minor titles of nobility. What resulted was a great proliferation of new petty nobles, wealthy from trade, but with little or no claim to land. Since these titles came without reference to land, they could be passed on to all descendents, not just eldest sons. The results of this policy have affected Sterich to this day, where common sellswords hold titles and the humblest innkeepers claim noble ancestry (80).
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:18 pm  

    mtg wrote:

    According to Gary Holian's article in LGJ 2, Sterich was founded about 800 years ago, in -230 CY.


    I don't have LGJ2 Sad

    I'd appreciate as large a quote as you can send me on this issue while still falling under "fair use".

    Thanks!
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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:39 pm  

    mtg wrote:



    I really don't like the idea of Resbin's last name only being Dren, however, the first name sounds terrible too, IMO. Also, you suggest her background is Flan. Am I the only one who interpreted her as Olman, possibly from Xamaclan?


    Well, we are stuck with Resbin as a name by whomever created it. Not everyone has a nice sounding name, anyway.

    And no, I don't think you are the only person who thinks she's Olman. When this subject was discussed previously, there were factions supporting a Flan, Olman, and Zahindi origin for her. The description would work for any of those, since all three are capable of being quite dark skinned.

    I think the Olman idea is pretty unworkable because I can't see the Earl getting away with marrying a "savage" without a lot of hassle and, more particularly, I can't see her being tolerated as sole ruler after Querchard's disappearance. She'd be a 'savage' with no local allies, suspicions about her husband's fate, and no real claim to the title. With the olman involved in the SB invasion, she'd be in an even more precarious position, with everyone who didn't like her baying for her blood as a SB agent.

    The Zahindi idea is a bit better, but it presumes there is some degree of contact with Zahind such that folks would actually accept her as noble. She'd still be in a very precarious position as a foreign sorceress with a mysteriously missing husband in a mage intolerant land, but the Zahindi aren't the Olman, at least.

    As a Flan, she'd at least have some chance of local support from the Old Faith and various Flannish elements of Sterish society. And if you use the LG Geoff of Flan/welsh rulership, she'd have a shot at some support there.
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:17 am  

    [quote="Vormaerin"]
    mtg wrote:
    The Zahindi idea is a bit better, but it presumes there is some degree of contact with Zahind such that folks would actually accept her as noble. She'd still be in a very precarious position as a foreign sorceress with a mysteriously missing husband in a mage intolerant land, but the Zahindi aren't the Olman, at least.


    Dungeon suggested that Querchard had met her while adventuring in the West and that she was viewed as mysterious and exotic by the populous, which actually suggests the opposite - that there ISN'T much contact with the Far West. Unless you choose to ignore the the strong hints from Dungeon, she is a Zahindi or a member of another non-specific region to the west.

    Her position may appear quite precarious but if she has been installed as a puppet ruler, with the backing of a powerful political faction, she is probably secure for now. She seems reasonably well liked by the people but their are rumours of her being some kind of evil witch so perhaps some respect her out of fear. However, it isn't all that clear how many political strings she is actually pulling herself but if the policies she fronts don't hurt the people, she's safe until one of her benefactors tries to make their move...
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:20 am  

    That could work. Its still quite likely to cause a lot of upset when a sovereign lord, even a simple palatine one, marries a mysterious sorceress of a hitherto little known or entirely unknown people. And when he mysteriously disappears......

    She could certainly be a puppet ruler, but a 15th lvl sorceress of an unknown tradition is a pretty scary puppet to have to keep track of. Depending on the power level of your GH campaign, she could well be the most powerful mage in Sterich and is doubtless (as a sorceress) possessed of a very strong, assertive personality (aka high charisma).

    There's also the minor issue of why the heir to Sterich (ie Querchard when younger) was allowed to go rampaging around on the far side of the Sea of Dust, but that's another topic... :)
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:50 am  

    I assume that the Sterich adventure thread in Dungeon scotched any suggestion that Resbin might be a half-drow pulling strings in Istivin for the dark olves under the guise of an exotic dark-skinned sorceress from <insert a part of Oerik no one in Sterich has ever heard of>?

    Even if it has, and she is on the level, it's a nice conspiracy theory to do the rounds of resentful Sterich nobles who don't fancy being pushed around by some foreign woman of dubious provenance.

    Never mind her popularity among the populace - it's her popularity among the nobility that matters most to her chances of staying in power.

    That said, this is Sterich, which has so many lords that the general populace and the nobility are practically the same thing. Happy

    This is why having a list of prominent houses and lords is handy. I find it hard to believe that Querchard has no siblings or cousins who might want to displace his lady wife from her title and position (though a lot of them could have been lost or killed in the fall of the March - but that just opens the door to dubious pretenders). You would need some serious backing to take on a powerful sorceress like Resbin though...

    P.
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:35 am  

    Yeah - I wonder if the fractious nature of the local Sterish nobility is what helps to keep her in power, although I assumed that it was the support of the Court Mage (who may well be the power behind the throne) rather than her own magical skills that props her up.
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:54 am  

    What a great thread, and big thanks to Kirt for posting his take on Sterich. Was it an excerpt from your Geopolitical History of Keoland, or the draft of a new manuscript?

    Better than quoting the article, Kirt, here is Wizard's URL: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgmp/20030515. I quoted from the sidebar chronology that runs throughout the article. According to it, the kingdom of Keoland expanded to its "present boundaries" in -242 CY, Sterich was founded in -230 CY, the Gran March in -161 CY, and the Yeomanry incorporated into the kingdom in -96 CY.

    Geoff isn't mentioned in the timeline, but the article's text on the County of Flen somewhat contradicts the chronology, holding that Sterich was established a century after Keoland established Flen and Cryllor, which was reportedly in the second century of the kingdom's existence and therefore should be somewhat after the chronology's-242 CY date (because Keoland was founded in -342 CY). Minor details...

    Regarding Resbin, I agree that Olman heritage seems unlikely due to the distance of Xamaclan and the fact that Greg Vaughn indicated that she had been away from Istivin for many years, visiting her family, which indicates that travel to there was not impractical for the princess although I find the idea unbelievable unless she could teleport (an idea I dislike). Actually I dislike the entire character concept, the harsh and foreign witch-queen, because neither the LGG, nor Greg's campaign arc deal with Querchard's heirs, and the campaign arc failed to develop her.

    Does anyone know if Resbin was entirely created by Iquander? Maybe he can shed some light on her. I love the idea that she is somehow related to the drow although it seems unlikely that Querchard, a powerful bard and a wealthy noble, could have been so deceived for so many years. Now, if his original wife died, perhaps in childbirth...

    I also wonder if Resbin could become Marchioness without King Skotti's approval.

    I'll think about her and post my thoughts later. To end, I need to retract an earlier statement. Greg's article indicates correctly that Sterich was founded about 800 years ago. However, his understanding of its founding seems to trip up on the LGG-created confusion noted by Kirt regarding the Querchard's relation to the Grand Duke of Geoff.

    Finally, we should also deal with the name Krelont, of Krelont Keep, Istivin's citadel and ancestral home of the earls of Sterich.
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:05 am  

    I believe that the Dungeon magazine "Shadows over Istivin" arc says that Krelont was an early warlord/slave driver type who first settled Istivin proper.

    I really have a hard time accepting she'd be allowed to rule as Marchioness if she was a little known foreigner. And if she was using her sorcery to intimidate folks into accepting her, then she'd get various authorities on her case.

    Depending on your view of Keoish inheritance rules, she could be okay. Medieval european inheritance would have left her the title and a 'widow's portion' of the income, but given the reigns of power to his heir (though if it was her child still in minority, she might have been teh child's regent). Nothing is said about who is the heir to Sterich, afaik.

    But you could have the spouse inherit full power if you envision a more egalitarian sort of legal structure. Either way, the Court of the Land might have to approve the succession. But that's almost pro forma unless there were serious issues arising. Of course, a foreign sorceress would probably be a serious issue for such an important post in wartime.....
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:03 pm  
    Re: Qualtaine Line of Power

    Kirt wrote:
    The original version of this passage in WoG (p. 36) implied only that the then current (CY 576) Grand Duke of Geoff and Earl of Sterich were relatives. The LGG translated this relationship backwards to the founding of Sterich. Note that whereas the LGG says that Sterich was settled by relatives of the grand duke of Geoff, it gives c. –242 CY as the date of settlement of Sterich and 316 CY as the date of incorporation of Geoff and the creation of the title of Grand Duke. By having Sterich settled five hundred years before there was a Grand Duke, but claiming that relatives of the Grand Duke did the settling, the LGG made rather awkward the meaning of the relationship. I assume that the LGG meant to say that those who settled Sterich were relatives of those who would much later become the line of Grand Dukes of Geoff.


    Yep.
    And I frenzied all over GLH about that.
    And so I created my rather convoluted retcon of the Counties of Hochoch and Istivin, followed by the expulsion of the main nobles of Hochoch to Sterich, and their being confused with the "rulers of Geoff" by later historians. A weak kludge, but that's what I came up with.
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:20 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    What a great thread, and big thanks to Kirt for posting his take on Sterich. Was it an excerpt from your Geopolitical History of Keoland, or the draft of a new manuscript?


    IIRC, that section was not in the original (90's) version, but comes from the post-LGG version. Since the only part of the new version officially released is the OJ part that did not get that far in time, I guess it should be considered draft material for the next OJ installment.
    [/quote]

    mtg wrote:

    Better than quoting the article, Kirt, here is Wizard's URL: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgmp/20030515. I quoted from the sidebar chronology that runs throughout the article. According to it, the kingdom of Keoland expanded to its "present boundaries" in -242 CY, Sterich was founded in -230 CY, the Gran March in -161 CY, and the Yeomanry incorporated into the kingdom in -96 CY.


    Hey, thanks for the link. I wasn't aware that that LGJ article was available for free download! (The last time I checked, they were only available from Dragon). Cool beans!

    However, what sparked my initial request is that I thought you were referring to LGJ2, which I do not have (I have number 1). Perhaps there was a typo in your original post?
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:30 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I really have a hard time accepting she'd be allowed to rule as Marchioness if she was a little known foreigner. And if she was using her sorcery to intimidate folks into accepting her, then she'd get various authorities on her case.

    Depending on your view of Keoish inheritance rules, she could be okay. Medieval european inheritance would have left her the title and a 'widow's portion' of the income, but given the reigns of power to his heir (though if it was her child still in minority, she might have been teh child's regent). Nothing is said about who is the heir to Sterich, afaik.


    Well if I'm honest, I have a hard time accepting the assumed equality of women in D&D in general. In any quasi-medieval setting there will always be notable exceptions but generally they should be second class citizens (no offence intended ladies - that's just the way it was) and players should get xp for roleplaying the difficulties that female pcs would face as a result... but I digress.

    I think it is Resbin's mysterious reputation rather than any actual spell-casting that cowes the peasants.

    The LG Keoish inheritence laws are not automatic as far as I understand. While it is assumed that first born sons will inherit my understanding is that a ruler can also name their heir. Presumably the marriage would give her some legitimacy while she is alive but her offspring by any subsequent marriages would not be in line and she would have to name a blood relative of the Earl.

    Unless as you say, she is Marchioness by virtue of her marriage, but her actual title is Regent on behalf of one of her children. The issue isn't really addressed in the Dungeon article on Istivin because at that stage the Earl was still alive and she was effectively acting as Regent on his behalf. On that basis, she is most likely Regent on behalf of one of her offspring except of course that no offspring have ever been mentioned.

    Which brings us onto another issue - with the existence of so much clerical magic, why is it that so few GH rulers have any legitimate heirs?
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:33 am  

    The degree of equality that women have in pre modern societies has varied quite considerably. Naturally, it is generally true that they have a more restrictive situation then men. However, there are always exceptions and PCs are generally exceptions. After all, being an adventurer at all is pretty exceptional. Extrapolating about the nature of 'normal' characters from the situation of PCs is a frequent mistake made by DMs, IMHO.

    I think that Resbin is hanging on by her fingernails and her story is that Querchard is missing, not dead. So she is acting in his name. That story is going to wear increasingly thin the longer he is gone. And if he's proven to be dead, then she's pretty much toast unless she comes up with something fancy. Even if she and Querchard didn't have kids, someone in the family most likely did. And if none of his relatives are still around, then the inheritance would go back to the Court of the Land.

    The widespread lack of heirs and/or missing/disappeared ones in the LGG is pretty near scandalous. The ruler of Sterich is gone with no heirs. The County of Flen's heir is missing. The Duchy of Geoff's heir is missing. And there are a number of others, IIRC. Its not unheard of for houses to die out or whatever, but its very rare that major holdings are left in some sort of limbo for any length of time. Enormous pressure would be put on the ruler to address the issue. Uncertain successions are a real PITA for everyone...
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:04 am  

    I'd assume that the lack of heirs that pervades the LGG is an oversight, rather than the "reality" (or at least an ommission to allow DM creativity).
    Just make 'em up if there aren't any. And make up the nephews, nieces, cousins too.

    Hence the noble houses thang I suggested above...

    P.
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:29 am  

    Oh, I assume that if nothing is mentioned about heirs at all that there probably is one. But when I first read the LGG, it really struck me that there were a lot of places where it explicitly mentioned some problem with the heir being MIA or the lord being missing with no obvious heir other than his wife, etc.

    Maybe it was just me, but it seemed pretty excessive even in the aftermath of a war...
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:42 pm  

    Of course, the grandaddy of missing heirs is Belvor, who has not named another Crown Prince some fifteen years after Thrommel's dissapearence
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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:07 am  

    I'm sure the Great Lords of Furyondy have a nice pliant second cousin twice removed lined up to take his place when old Belvor shuffles off this mortal coil... Wink

    Actually, you could put it down to grief on the old man's part - a refusal to give up on his long lost son (who, it seems, would have been a fine king). Perhaps that's why he's clinging to the throne.

    Of course, if Thrommel was feted to be such a strong ruler, that raises the possibility that one or more of the Great Lords of Furyondy (and perhaps some Velunese magnates who valued their independence) might have conspired with the kidnappers...

    Who knows what skeletons (not to mention undead vampire blackguards) are lurking in closets in the Great Houses of Furyondy and Veluna?

    Ah...noble politics - was there ever a pit of vipers so venomous?
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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:13 pm  

    The more I think of heirs, the odder GH becomes, you would think with all the fantasy threats that the incentive would be to produce more children especially the ruling elite.

    Especially given the heirs habit of leading from the front, no ever seems to say no, I am teleporting you to safety.
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    Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:01 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I think that Resbin is hanging on by her fingernails and her story is that Querchard is missing, not dead. So she is acting in his name. That story is going to wear increasingly thin the longer he is gone. And if he's proven to be dead, then she's pretty much toast unless she comes up with something fancy. Even if she and Querchard didn't have kids, someone in the family most likely did. And if none of his relatives are still around, then the inheritance would go back to the Court of the Land.

    This raises the other problems with Querchard's disappearance: the court wizard and other parties that would be interested have (or should have) enough divination magick to discern that he is alive and perhaps his location. An obvious fix, of course, is that the court wizard casts counters this magick regularly (or that the Deeper Dungeons resist such magicks).

    In the campaign arc, Querchard has already gone missing. (It happened in 590 CY according to the LGG.) So according to it, Resbin has been marchioness for four years (or one per the 591 CY LGG).

    Either way, she's established her own rule. If we want, then the task is to justify this via creative narrative.

    PS - She is clearly Olman, as that is one of her languages spoken, per the campaign arc.
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:49 am  

    Hmm.... This topic is of particular interest to me, as one of my PCs is Querchard's half-brother. If we accept the "City of Shadows" campaign arc as canon (and let's face it — it's the only canon we're going to get), then mtg is correct — Resbin Dren Emondav is Olman. (I don't like it either, but there's no other reason for her to speak the language.)

    Still, the question stands: Is Querchard's family name Emondav or Qualtaine? Much evidence seems to support the latter. "House Qualtaine" is unquestionably the ruling family. While "Emondav" could be a family of House Qualtaine, the Marchioness is occasionally referred to as simply "Emondav". Since the author uses the surname "Emondav" without fear of confusion, one must presume that Emondav is her family name, which she kept despite her marriage into Sterish nobility. (Perhaps she herself is of Xamaclan nobility and wishes to retain those ties.) Now, admittedly, Resbin Dren Emondav is not exactly a name that screams Olmani, but we're stuck with it....
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:03 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    While "Emondav" could be a family of House Qualtaine, the Marchioness is occasionally referred to as simply "Emondav". Since the author uses the surname "Emondav" without fear of confusion, one must presume that Emondav is her family name, which she kept despite her marriage into Sterish nobility. (Perhaps she herself is of Xamaclan nobility and wishes to retain those ties.) Now, admittedly, Resbin Dren Emondav is not exactly a name that screams Olmani, but we're stuck with it....

    I think that's a fair interpretation. Greg consistently refers to Querchard as Querchard and Resbin Dren Emondav as Emondav.

    One way to create a more Olman-sounding name for her is to imagine how Common-vocca pronounciation altered her name ...
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:19 am  

    mtg wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    While "Emondav" could be a family of House Qualtaine, the Marchioness is occasionally referred to as simply "Emondav". Since the author uses the surname "Emondav" without fear of confusion, one must presume that Emondav is her family name, which she kept despite her marriage into Sterish nobility. (Perhaps she herself is of Xamaclan nobility and wishes to retain those ties.) Now, admittedly, Resbin Dren Emondav is not exactly a name that screams Olmani, but we're stuck with it....

    I think that's a fair interpretation. Greg consistently refers to Querchard as Querchard and Resbin Dren Emondav as Emondav.

    One way to create a more Olman-sounding name for her is to imagine how Common-vocca pronounciation altered her name ...


    ... or consider that, notwithstanding that it might be a power name from Xamaclan, it is not strictly or originally an Olmani name. There are thousands of ways for that to happen. Other languages intrude. As an example, in the Olman Invastion article I wrote about module UK6 I attributed the names “Kahoatep” and “kepta” to Touvish. The same could be done for "Emondav". It does look a lot like "Amon Ra". I wrote about Touv blood in the north of the Amedio intruding into the Olman, but separately Xamaclan could import noble culture and families from the east. Or west or whatever.
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:14 am  

    Woah, hoss!

    Because someone speaks a language, they're clearly of that nation?

    I speak French, mais je ne suis pas Francais (apologies to any Francophones for the gratuitious mangling of their language). Smile

    There's no possibility she might have learned Olman somewhere in her travels or as a matter of acadmic interest?
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:26 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    There's no possibility she might have learned Olman somewhere in her travels or as a matter of acadmic interest?


    No one in their right mind would be academically interested in the Olman Exclamation Wink

    and for what it is worth her picture is here

    http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/117/DA117_OnlineSupplement.pdf
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:57 am  

    Neither the name, the picture, or the fact that she speaks Olmani means she must be Olman. However, I am pretty sure that is what the author of that article believes her to be.

    I prefer that Emondav be Querchard's family name and that the Emondavs are distantly related to the Qualtaines. I also prefer to treat Resbin Dren as a Flan sorceress with strong ties to the Old Faith. I think that the title "Steward of the Great Western Gate" belongs to her specifically and is a mystical position related to her magical and old faith status.

    Gonna have to pass on the teasing of information out of the Shadows over Istivin articles because I think the adventure and the background it gives is really awful and I don't use any of it.
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:11 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Woah, hoss!

    Because someone speaks a language, they're clearly of that nation?

    I speak French, mais je ne suis pas Francais (apologies to any Francophones for the gratuitious mangling of their language). Smile

    There's no possibility she might have learned Olman somewhere in her travels or as a matter of acadmic interest?


    Her languages are listed as Common, Dwarven, Keolandish, and Olman. If she were Flan or Zahindi, one would expect her to speak one of those tongues, rather than Olman, no? We know she's a "dark-skinned foreigner"; thus, Common and Keolandish are unlikely to be her native languages. Neither is she a dwarf, so Olman is the only logical conclusion.

    Here's a thought: Perhaps the "Great Western Gate" of which Resbin is Stewardess refers to Terabar, from UK6. What if the noble Olman family Emondav has guarded over Kahoatep's tunnel for many generations? That would explain her long absence from Sterich, as she tended to her (mostly honorary) duties there.

    As an aside, I'm curious as to who the original architect of this character was and what his intentions were. Maybe Gary or Erik could enlighten us. Wink Ignoring any later development, the name Resbin Dren Emondav sounds to my ears like it would fit in well amongst the nobles of Erelhei-Cinlu....
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:00 pm  

    Flan is not a language still spoken in Keoland, even amongst those of FLan descent. The only usage it still has there is in its relationship to Druidic. So its not necessary for her to speak Flan to be one.

    Still, its obvious that the character was intended to be Olman. Which is, after all, hardly more ludicrous than many other things mentioned in that story arc, which we have discussed in previous threads.
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:06 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Her languages are listed as Common, Dwarven, Keolandish, and Olman. If she were Flan or Zahindi, one would expect her to speak one of those tongues, rather than Olman, no? We know she's a "dark-skinned foreigner"; thus, Common and Keolandish are unlikely to be her native languages. Neither is she a dwarf, so Olman is the only logical conclusion.

    Here's a thought: Perhaps the "Great Western Gate" of which Resbin is Stewardess refers to Terabar, from UK6. What if the noble Olman family Emondav has guarded over Kahoatep's tunnel for many generations? That would explain her long absence from Sterich, as she tended to her (mostly honorary) duties there.


    DMPrata, your reasoning is sound, but for the sake of talking it through: There are foreigners and then there are foreigners. There may be other canon that would contradict this proposition, but she could be considered by all to be a "foreigner" but in truth be a half-olman half-flan, or Zahindi born locally. Just a possibility.

    UK6 has two people on either side of the tunnel. The Atem, a vicious local tribe in the Amedio occupies the entrance to the destroyed city of Terabar. I have not tried to pick apart their ancestry, but my working thought was that they may be Amedi Suel. That they are in the North West of the Amedio suggests that by most canon sources. That they are near the entrance to the tunnel that connects with the old Imperium suggest that also. I am also of the belief that there is almost no such thing as a pure Suel in the Amedeo, so making her an Atem of such blood could be consistent. She has red hair and no freckles. There would be variation if the Atem were half Suel, one quarter Olman and one quarter Touv. That scarf and those feather ear-rings give an impression too.
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:30 pm  

    Lots of replies:

    First, thanks to Wolfsire for the supplement link. I hadn't realized it existed for that issue. What a nice lil resource!

    Regarding Paul's justified general objection, Vormaerin and DMPrata made the specific arguments. While generally people's language need not derive from their "race," in the case of Resbin Dren Emondav, it seems clear that Greg Vaughn (or his editor?) meant her to be Olman.

    I like what you're talking about UK6 but can't comment on it because I don't own the module. However, for me, the best idea about Resbin makes her drow (or half-drow). I'm interested in her originally being an agent of Erelhei-Cinlu who turned coat once she'd seduced Earl Querchard. This could also help explain why the remnant drow EEG-devotees are messing with Istivin ... ruling it is almost within their grasp.

    I like this idea because it makes Resbin more complicated instead of the bundle of relatively uninteresting contraditions we have on her, e.g., being a powerful sorceress but not imaginative, or being a spellcaster but unable to imagine implementing a lil protection from evil for her husband. (For that matter, Querchard should have been warded in that way from his first encounter with the Malgoth.) Also, just to be a lil petty, Resbin's portrait is nowhere near her written description in the adventure. :p

    Regarding Querchard, it could be that he knows / knew that Resbin was a half-drow and that he was complicit in devising her "from a far away land" cover story. I like this idea because it complicates the Earl, who was able to resist the power of the King, before his lands were brought low. Also, it suggests that he became drunk with his own power, perhaps losing his way from the Old Lore in the arms of his decadent lover (who might not have birthed any sons but might have birthed a daughter)?
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    Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:05 pm  

    Well, I don't like the entire conception of the Malgoth as the 'problem' of Istivin. I'd rather do something much more interesting with that.
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    Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:35 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Her languages are listed as Common, Dwarven, Keolandish, and Olman. If she were Flan or Zahindi, one would expect her to speak one of those tongues, rather than Olman, no? We know she's a "dark-skinned foreigner"; thus, Common and Keolandish are unlikely to be her native languages. Neither is she a dwarf, so Olman is the only logical conclusion.

    Here's a thought: Perhaps the "Great Western Gate" of which Resbin is Stewardess refers to Terabar, from UK6. What if the noble Olman family Emondav has guarded over Kahoatep's tunnel for many generations? That would explain her long absence from Sterich, as she tended to her (mostly honorary) duties there.


    Doh - I missed that obvious clue! Although, it is possible that the Zahindi principle language is a derivative of Common or Olman (a tenuous argument), or it is possible that her native tongue wasn't listed because there is no 'official' definition for the native tongue of the Zahindi or any other western race (pure speculation).

    Personally, I still prefer the Zahindi background because the Olman are just too savage for my tastes and Resbin is 'exotic'.

    The picture of Resbin isn't much help since her description as a middle-aged, dark-skinned matron gave way to a sexy young caucasian blonde (clearly under the influence of a Disguise Self spell, so make sure that one is in her repetoire).

    Btw - I thought that Lopolla was the Western Gate? Just how many Western Gates does the Flanaess have?
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    Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:55 am  

    Hmm, haven't heard Lopolla call the Great Western Gate, though its a reasonable claim.

    The only reference I know of to a GWG is Resbin's title. I don't recall that being a title of the previous editions' Earls, but I don't have the references at hand to double check.

    There was a previous discussion of this exact topic some months back. There were some who argued it was an old title from when the Emondavs lived elsewhere (perhaps Geoff or Bissel), others mentioned the supposed Far Lands gate in the Rushmoors, and a number of other possibilities.

    The UK6 mention is interesting if you are keen on the Olman idea, though I'm not sure why anyone in Keoland would use the title in that case. And if its an Olman title, I'd think it would be "northern" gate, since it is north of their lands, not west. But those are just quibbles.
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    Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:34 am  

    I actually assumed she was a drow in human disguise, pulling all the strings in Istivin when I read the description of Sterich in the LGG.

    The Dungeon arc appears to have added a complicating layer of contradictory crossweave, however.

    The language list for Resbin, combined with the fact she's supposed to be from a far-off land does seem to suggest that she's of Olman descent.

    However, her name clearly isn't Olman (it sounds more Suloise or drow). And she seems a bit too aculturated with Flanaessi manners to be a straight import from Xamaclan or the jungles of the Amedio/Hepmonaland. I think some one suggested half Amedian Suloise? That works best for me - especially if you tie it into somewhere like Cauldron or Sassarine (adding the required amount of civilisation). OK - that's not exactly the far-away west, but it's the best fit for the weird way the character was detailed in the Dungeon article.

    So - I suggest Resbin has an Olman mother (perhaps a native of Xamaclan) and a Suloise father (a native of Cauldron or Sasserine named Emondrav - as opposed to being a savage Amedian). Querchard might have met her in the distant west - which could be used to explain away the confusion over where she's supposed to be from.

    The Great Western Gate - as I mentioned before - I assumed that this was the Fals Gap or Lopolla. I took it to be an ancestral title dating back to the days of Imperial Keoland that's accreted around the House of Qualtane.
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    Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:24 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    The Great Western Gate - as I mentioned before - I assumed that this was the Fals Gap or Lopolla. I took it to be an ancestral title dating back to the days of Imperial Keoland that's accreted around the House of Qualtane.


    I think I may have got the reference from the old LG website for Ket but my notes on Ket are at home so I can't check on the source. I recall that Hardby is called the Eastern Gate and (I think) somewhere in Ahlissa is known as the Southern Gate?

    I wasn't aware that Sterich had any direct trade routes west so, although it represents the westernmost province of Keoland, is it possible that the title is purely ceremonial and refers either to a western fortress that protects from incursions from the mountains, or possibly just refers to the large western gate in the city itself (leading to the Oyt Road)
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    Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:27 am  

    Or is it Dyvers is the Eastern Gate and Hardby is the Southern Gate? Dammit, I've confused myself again.
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    Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:00 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Querchard might have met her in the distant west - which could be used to explain away the confusion over where she's supposed to be from.


    Where am I missing this reference to the "distant west"? The only note I found in the campaign arc is, "Querchard met her while traveling in distant lands during his youth."
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    Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:50 am  

    You're probably right. And I suppose with the Olman revolt going on in the Hold and the return of the Gauntlet, there are more potential links to adventures for Sterish adventurers if she is Olman.
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    Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:42 am  

    The distant west thing I picked up second hand here. I don't actually have the article and so and just speculating. That firms up the half-Olman origin even more.
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