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    Canonfire :: View topic - Thieve's Guilds
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    Thieve's Guilds
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
    Posts: 196
    From: Columbus, Ohio

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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:38 am  
    Thieve's Guilds

    Hello all,

    I'm still working on building my Sterich campaign, and I ran into the question of whether or not Istivin would even have a Thieve's Guild. I know one is not mentioned anywhere. It has a population of 12,100 mixed souls (about the size of Verbobonc) and certainly has many new opportunists since Sterich was reclaimed in CY 588. But, the land is so poor and economy devasted and the city so distant from another like Gorna, that I was wondering if the city could support a "true guild" of this type. I know that the sewers and the tunnels built by the mongrelmen of the abandoned quarter offer possibilities for such activities, but what must exists for such an organization to flower?

    At this point, I'm looking at a lesser but affluent noble running a "family" business. What's your take on this?

    Thanks again,... you've all been a big help. Happy
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:23 am  

    Thieves' Guilds are a hackeyed old fantasy cliche, IMO. I prefer to ditch the term and think more real worldy. Most criminals in any given city will probably be independent - be they cutpurses, muggers, smugglers, counterfeiters or what have you. Some may be organised into gangs that might claim physical turf or posession of a particular racket.

    It is far more common for there to be several gangs in a given city than there is to be one overarching organised crime organisation (one thing I never really liked about Greyhawk City - no competition). Large organisations do occasionally exist - but they tend, relatively, to be rarer than the other catagories (independents and small gangs).

    I'd treat Istivin as a wide open opportunity for crims. Most would have fled the city during the Giant Troubles - so old networks and organisations would have been uprooted. As the refugees return, there's likely to be a lot of conflict and bloodletting between various gangs to sort out just who owns what - especially given the relatively weak grip on the March that the Marchioness seems to have...

    Make Istivin's criminal underworld fragmented, chaotic and bloody (that, of course, makes it interesting for lawful PCs trying to restore law and order...).

    Oh and crims don't have to hide in sewers and tunnels - the best crim is the one that's good (and scary) enough to hide in plain sight behind a repectable facade.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:43 am  

    Heartily second Woesinger's post.

    My istivin has a number of smugglers' groups, gangs that control the less savory streets and run protection rackets, whores, fences, and the like, and assorted freelancers. The closest thing to a "thieves' guild" are the various individuals who have a small stable of pickpockets and cat burglars working for them ala the Artful Dodger type set up. Its chaos and some folks vanish and new folks appear on a regular basis.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:43 am  

    Istivin stikes me as a place where the pigs are really, really well fed (a la Deadwood)... Happy
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
    Posts: 62
    From: Lecce, Italy

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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:49 am  

    well, a city of 12,100 souls doesn't really need a thieves' guild... It should be an open field for crims. I think you have two choices: you can consider the city as described in the last two post (and it fits well...) or you can imagine a NPC who is tryin' to create a guild of that kind... this could be a spicy side-adventure... or something like it...
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:21 pm  

    Agreed it takes a fairly established and relatively peaceful place to encourage an organized thieves guild simply because the criminals need a clearly defined code of behavior to minimize notice from the law to continue to function, the mavericks tend to get picked off.

    In Istivin it is still fairly wide open, who is someone that is being strong-armed going to complain to since the military have larger concerns.

    Woesinger: IIRC. GH did have competion but it mentions how the thieves consolidated the underworld through absorbing the other organised gangs through bribery, intimidation, legal pressure and gang warfare, think Chicago mafia.

    The last organised hold out was the beggars union which was defeated in the FtA sourcebook, I believe.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:34 pm  

    It just seems that many, many sourcebooks in gaming assume some sort of structure like the Lankhmart Thieves' Guild, which should be the rare to unique exception (as it is in Newhon, IIRC).

    Even with Mafia type structures, there are rival families and whatnot.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:06 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Woesinger: IIRC. GH did have competion but it mentions how the thieves consolidated the underworld through absorbing the other organised gangs through bribery, intimidation, legal pressure and gang warfare, think Chicago mafia.


    In the heat of a summer night
    In the Gem of the Flanaess
    When the town of Greyhawk died
    And they talk about it still

    When a man named Theobald
    Tried to bring all to his fold
    And he launched the Beggar’s War
    With the forces outside the law

    I heard my mama cry
    I heard her pray the night that Grehawk died
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:53 pm  

    Thieves’ guilds are basically organized crime syndicates. You are more likely to have gangs of thieves and thugs in any but the largest metropolitan cities. Such gangs might like to call themselves thieves’ guilds, but are probably a pale imitation of the real ones. Such gangs can take all shapes and sizes. It could be an unscrupulous merchant with a gang of thugs that keep competitors out of the way and that also practices extortion and petty theft on the side. Or it could be a bunch of seedy beggars or more traditional gangsters even. Istivin doesn’t strike me as being enough in control of itself to have a formalized thieves’ guild. Smaller gangs and thugs, yes.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:21 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Thieves’ guilds are basically organized crime syndicates. You are more likely to have gangs of thieves and thugs in any but the largest metropolitan cities. Such gangs might like to call themselves thieves’ guilds, but are probably a pale imitation of the real ones. Such gangs can take all shapes and sizes. It could be an unscrupulous merchant with a gang of thugs that keep competitors out of the way and that also practices extortion and petty theft on the side. Or it could be a bunch of seedy beggars or more traditional gangsters even. Istivin doesn’t strike me as being enough in control of itself to have a formalized thieves’ guild. Smaller gangs and thugs, yes.


    I agree totally. The traditional concept of the 'Thieves' Guild' is a hang-over from 1e where level 10 thieves could form 'guilds', which would realistically been little more than a collection of a few thieves' much like Fagin as someone mentioned earlier. A highly organised guild like in Greyhawk should be the exception (don't some call it the City of Thieves?).

    I think that LG has contributed to there being too many structured guilds as they are a useful tool for thief pc development. In a more organic game, there should ordinarily be several small groups with fingers in several different pies, depending on the size of the settlement, with the odd exceptionally powerful and organised Guild (e.g. Greyhawk, Gradsul, and pre-war Rookroost spring to mind)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    From: Columbus, Ohio

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:13 am  

    Gangs and smugglers it is then. I think the Order of Vigileance (or whatever the corrupted watch 1/2-Elf commander is doing) could do nicely for evolving into either of these if not stopped. Players got a mission!

    I had no idea that I would get so many responses, and I truly thank you all.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:35 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    In the heat of a summer night
    In the Gem of the Flanaess
    When the town of Greyhawk died
    And they talk about it still

    When a man named Theobald
    Tried to bring all to his fold
    And he launched the Beggar’s War
    With the forces outside the law

    I heard my mama cry
    I heard her pray the night that Grehawk died


    LOL! Laughing Very nice! Smile

    There are several d20 sourcebooks on organized crime and several non-d20 sourcebooks, although a visit to any library or bookstore should see many books available on organized crime that will serve. A Net search will probably do as well.

    As noted, the notion of a large, powerful, organized thieves guild is pure Lankhmar and its copyists. Historically, one must look to Victorian times to find anything remotely like it in size and sophistication. While the Mafia evolved from criminal organizations much earlier in Italy, those organizations we more difuse, rather than being concentrated in a single large city. A medieval "thieves guild" was more like a settled gang than the Lankhmar/ City of Greyhawk example. And there would be no central organization but more loose cooperation amid rivalry, also as others have noted.

    The large and powerful thieves guild is an anachronism, if it is not a pure fiction.

    And the idea of an assassins "guild" in a city with less than 100,000 population (and even then)? Sheer fantasy. Who are they killing and how often to support such a "guild" of what size?

    I'd think much the same would be true of any thieves guild. To support lots of thieves, there must be lots to steal, which means lots of people so that there is enough to steal without overly damaging the economy. And there must be enough people, as well, to fence the goods and not be immediately caught. WoGreyhawk chronically lacks lots of people and thus lots to steal and hence cannot support much in the way of thieves guilds.

    By way of example -

    In 1066, London had a population of approx. 10,000.
    In 1200, London had a population of approx. 30,000.
    In 1300, London had a population of approx. 80,000.
    In 1350, London had a population of approx. 50,000 after the first major outbreak of plague.

    While crime was often punished by other than incarceration and while a number of structures in London once served as places of incarceration, in 1188, Newgate Prison became London's first designated prison. Newgate Prison was designed to hold 350 prisoners but was later often overcrowded, holding up to 900 prisoners.

    The first purpose built London prison was the Fleet Prison, built in 1197, which could house 300 prisoners.

    At around the same time, The Clink Prison opened across the Thames River in Southwark, technically outside the jurisdiction of London but certainly within the metropolitan area. The Clink was used initially to house prostitutes, bawds, drunks and rowdies who frequented the licit and illicit entertainments south of the river (one of which would, much later, include Shakespeare's Globe Theater). Incarceration was more temperary in nature, at least at first. Later the Clink housed debtors more permanently.

    Using the above population figures, Newgate and Fleet prisons could hold 2% of the population of London in 1200 and 1% of the population of London in 1300. This provides some idea of what the city fathers believed was warranted, suggesting that crime no where approached the levels of the City of Greyhawk or Lanhkmar. Even allowing for multiples of these percentages to account for criminals who were not apprehended, the criminal population was low, particularly as history records Newgate and Fleet often housing debtors, whose only "crime" was an inability to pay their bills.

    Ludgate Prison would open in 1378, another gatehouse prison, as population began to increase after the plague.

    At least based on the most obvious evidence of a western societies attempt to deal with crime - prisons - there is no evidence for anything approaching a powerful "thieves guild" in London until the 18th and 19th centuries.

    IMC, I base my thieves guilds off of Victorian models or the Mafia and IMC I have drastically increased population so that it is easier to "get lost in the crowd" as there really is a crowd.

    YMMV
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:48 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Wolfsire wrote:
    In the heat of a summer night…


    LOL! Laughing Very nice! Smile


    Thank you.

    I think it was Dragon 115 that had a few articles on various types of thieves' guilds.
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