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    Canonfire :: View topic - Warriors
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Warriors
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:36 pm  
    Warriors

    I am working on a brotherhood of Knights for the Gran March project. This is definately not an order, but something much less structured and much more governed by tradition and common need. The question I have is what Flan god would such a group follow? At least originally?

    I was thinking of Trithereon, but he is not a Flan god. Suggestions?
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2590
    From: Ullinois

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:07 pm  

    The best native Flan god in this case I will say is Pelor. Although later GH editions say he isn't militant (thus the need for Mayaheine) how can you argue with Sun, Strength and Healing. It has everything a knight needs in virtues.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:47 pm  

    Why does it need to be a Flan god?

    Anyway, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer said this about Pelor:

    "...he was until recently a peaceful and gentle god concerned with the alleviation of suffering. Now, he is a more martial deity who brings his wrath to bear on darkness and evil."

    From the Ashes said this:

    "The nature of Pelor's reverence has changed subtly during and since the wars and is still changing. His old aspect of a peaceful, gentle god concerned for the suffering is eclipsed by his more martial aspect as a wrathful Power who drives out the darkness of evil. This is parallel to the cult of Mayaheine, his servitor, a much more martial deitv."

    So it's not that Pelor isn't militant, only that Mayaheine is more militant. And I suspect he's been martial before, during other times of great conflict. The Greyhawk Wars weren't the most war-torn period the Flanaess has ever seen, after all.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:04 pm  

    Well in this instance it needs to be a Flan God because originally it was a Flan organization... when there were no other races in the Flaness. This is an organization that has been perpetuated for 3,000 years around camp fires, with rituals and traditions passed on by word of mouth.

    Today it is no longer just a Flan organization... but I am working up the history at the moment.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
    Posts: 196
    From: Columbus, Ohio

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:47 pm  

    Perhaps this is too simple an answer, but what if you create the Flan God yourself? Perhaps a demipower or hero-god. Maybe this power was waning for many generations. Now he or she, like his or her influence, has gone to the realm where dead or forgotten gods retire.

    Must it be a pre-existing canon deity? You are creating an original organization... nothing says the rest of your work cannot be original as well. Your overall work will probably flow together better as well.

    Just my 2 cents. Cheers.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2590
    From: Ullinois

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:31 pm  

    Krovis. Cool
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:36 pm  

    As another option, a warrior society need not follow a specific god, or any god at all.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:48 am  

    Rao might work, too, depending on the nature of the order. He's not entirely pacifistic.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:08 am  

    In it's modern incarnation, the org will not be religious. However, lets hear more about Krovis.

    Also, what of the Old Faith? I will peruse a few articles here.

    This group was formed in the earliest days of Vecna's conquest... before he held an empire. Though they were never powerful enough to challenge him, or even be noticed by him, they have been around the headwaters of the Lort since that time.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:23 am  

    Along the lines of Skech's suggestion how about some kind of powerful totem animal spirit?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 04, 2003
    Posts: 156
    From: Nyrond

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:30 pm  

    I'd always visualized very early Flan mythos as Mother Earth (Beory), Father Sky (Pelor) and the four elemental/seasonal deities, worshipped pantheisitically (worshipped all as a group) rather than polytheisitically (many gods, but worshipped individually). The Flan become (in my visualization at least) more polytheistic as they encountered and mixed with the Oeridians and Suel who's beliefs were strongly in that tradition. At the same time their worship evolved from a more basic/druidic tradition towards the more cosmopolitan clerical methods.

    A brotherhood with strong traditional roots in the early Flan might follow that idea, spreading their worship over the entire early members of the Flan Pantheon with the worship being more druidic than newer knighthoods.

    I also really like the idea of a totemistic or spirit worshipping aspect mixed in with it. Perhaps upon indoctorination a brother recieved a weapon, piece of armor, or item of gear of some ancient member of the brotherhood that acts as the focus for his personal spiritual guide.

    The more I think about it the more I think you might want to look at these two articles:

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041004a
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a

    They are for the Valinor Elves in Eberron but they have a strong martial ancestrial brotherhood flavor that could be adapted to something that might work for you.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:46 pm  

    Hey Anced Math, Interesting...

    Does it have to be a single patron?

    If it is a loose organisation created among the Flan to even subtly oppose Vecna, I could see followers of many Flan Gods joining out of the "Greater Cause to their people".

    Followers:
    Beory: Vecna harmed natural order (all encompassing figure)
    Pelor: Granted he has been more martial however 3000 years ago pretty passive, not to say some militant fire-brands joining.
    Rao: passive but if the threat is great enough...can't see them leading but perhaps helping to keep a coalition focused and together?
    Nerull: Few darker warriors interested in murder, too destructive in large numbers.

    Obad-Hai, freedom and hunting is the closest Flan God toTrithereon's ethos, seems a good fit especially if the organisation began as a loose guerilla movement dedicated to preserving the Flan traditional way of life aspect that Vecna threatened.

    Another interesting twist is Flan Hero-God Vathris of Anguish, Lost Causes, Revenge seems tailored to sponsor and combat a Great Evil but I don't know if Vathris ascended before or after your 3000 year timeframe or his history or sponsor.

    As for making your own God, your choice but I tend to believe GH has enough deities already without creating more.

    Just a thought...
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:33 pm  

    Thanks Crag,

    Vrathis may be the answer.

    The story that I am working with is fairly simple... the Queen of an small Flan "kingdom," (by modern modern Keoish standards she might have been a Count or Baron) was captured by the Armies of Vecna as he begins his course of empire. She calls out for a champion, and only a young boy with a spear has the courage to step forward.

    He is beaten to death, or just short thereof. He awakens to find his queen dead and his home conquered. He begins a brotherhood of warriors opposed to Vecna. This brotherhood has changed considerably over the last few millenia, and now opposes all evil, without thought to politics. Originally they were Flan warriors carrying spears and wearing leather armor. Today they more resemble a knighthood as this is the common mode of a warrior in the Gran March region. However, they are still made up of masterless warriors, and they still stand against any evil, with no fear of death.

    They cling to the area and the memory of seven Flan kingdoms that existed in and around the Lort/Rushflow(called the Sheldomar when they merge) before Vecna.

    Whether these kingdoms existed is not questioned by the knights, and not by any scholar within their hearing.

    So, Krovis or Vrathis may well be appropriate for the history... the brotherhood is the same and very different than it was 2,000 years ago and worships many gods today. Maybe the lad was Vrathis? Where can I find more info on this personage?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:08 pm  

    Vathris is described in the LGJ article on the Bright Desert, and seems to have been specific to that region - specifically, he wasn't worshipped outside of ancient Itar. He's more or less the same as the god called Atarra in this article. Worshippers of Vathris in the proto-Gran March seem unlikely.

    Krovis sleeps in the Drachensgrab Mountains when there isn't a risk of a single person or group taking over the entire Flanaess. He might have been active in Vecna's time. We know he was active during the height of the Isles of Woe, whenever that was.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:01 pm  

    Say, are you going to tie in the Crown of Burgred, King of the Mara that you mentioned in the Flan Kingdom thread anywhere in this? That would be kind of cool.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 580
    From: British Isles

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    Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:35 am  

    how about Allitur...Flan god of traditions, ethics and propriety

    sounds like an ideal patron for an order of knights...

    if you go with the idea that the Old Faith comprises the worship of a number of Flan gods including Allitur then there is no reason why the knights can't be LN and have ties to Beory too and to the aspects of law and tradition amongst the Old Faith...

    Gawain and the Green Knight type stuff.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:03 pm  

    Quote:
    Say, are you going to tie in the Crown of Burgred, King of the Mara that you mentioned in the Flan Kingdom thread anywhere in this? That would be kind of cool.


    Well, I am treating Burgess as one of the small flan kingdoms that existed in the area of the March prior to the rise of Vecna. It was the neighboring kingdom to the one which spawned this brotherhood of knights.

    The Crown of Burgess refered to in Dragon 272, and in that thread by Rasgon is one of the treasured artifacts sought by the Queen's Knights. It is also known as the Bunion of Vecna.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

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    Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:39 pm  

    Excellent Wolfling; can't believe I forgot Allitur Embarassed

    Guess I got on the "ranger style" given Anced Math discription of a loose organisation.

    Especially like the Old Faith idea; early in its history I can see "old faith" druids using their flan societal influence too create a flan coalition to fight the natural and socially threat Vecna posed.

    Ofcourse as the organisation becomes more established over time within flan local culture, Allitur followers would be the perfect choice to provide a sense of direction and the rituals all orders develop to bind its members together.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:17 pm  

    Actually I am envisioning a group of warriors who are steeped in tradition, and it can be associated with the Old Faith, or Allitur, or both. However, it is more like Cuchulainn rather than a ranger or druid tradition. The warrior who founded it was bent on duty and defense of the people, not on religious fanatism or druidic rights.

    I see much more of a warrior cult, one dedicated to the art of personal combat and protection of the people than anything else.
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