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    Canonfire :: View topic - Good VS Evil
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    Good VS Evil
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
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    From: Lecce, Italy

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    Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:29 am  
    Good VS Evil

    Hi Guys I'm here to tell you something about my GH campaign, and to ask you some advice (or comments alike).

    That's the roots.

    Asmodeus found a precious artifact of unknown origin: the Book of the Plots. This is a ancient book with billions of pages filled with strings of text. These pages tell the future of every single man, animal, or deity. But this is not a unchangeble future: in fact the strings dont't stop moving, changing, disappearing and so on, following the wills of that beings who fight against thei destiny.

    Well, Asmodeus discovered a string about himself: a mortal called "dark angel", coming from "a land of wind and fire", will slay him with "two holy fangs".

    He began to look for divinations about this mortal being, and he thought he found him: her name was Shandromar (one of my PC, coming from Zeif, a worrior cleric who fight with two great swords).

    He could simply kill her, but Asmodeus looks further... He wants to become a God, and if this woman is going to become so powerfull to kill him, probably she would be a great help for him... so he decides to corrupt her...

    and the string on the Book of the Plots became lighter...
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:51 am  
    Re: Good VS Evil

    Eldiel wrote:
    (one of my PC, coming from Zeif, a worrior cleric who fight with two great swords).


    Shocked

    Monkey-grip much?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:04 pm  

    Quote:
    Monkey-grip much?


    Shocked

    no

    this is a 3.0 feat that is useless in the 3.5 edition... IMO...

    the new rules allow a PC to use an oversize weapon with a -2 penalty on attack rolls...

    Laughing
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:51 am  

    That is not what the rule means, btw. That rule applies to weapons scaled for races of other sizes.

    "Inappropriately sized weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't appropriately sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies to attack rolls for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."

    A medium greatsword is not inappropriately sized for a medium character. It is a two handed weapon for said character. A *small* greatsword (one designed with a halfling or gnome wielder in mind) could be wielded in one hand by a medium sized character at a -2 penalty. But it wouldn't do 1d12, it would do whatever the DMG says small greatswords do (1d8 or 1d10, I forget which).
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:32 am  

    Confused

    Quote:
    "Inappropriately sized weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't appropriately sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies to attack rolls for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."


    Right

    Quote:
    A medium greatsword is not inappropriately sized for a medium character. It is a two handed weapon for said character. A *small* greatsword (one designed with a halfling or gnome wielder in mind) could be wielded in one hand by a medium sized character at a -2 penalty.


    but if we read further in the same paragraph of the DM's guide...

    "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of creature for which the eapon is designed. For instance, a Small greatsword (a two-handed weapon for a small creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a light weapon for a Large creature. Conversely, a Large dagger (a light weapon for a Large creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a two-handed weapon for a Small creature. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."

    well

    IMO there are two different problems we're talking about:

    1 - a weapon designed for a different size is designed for a different hand, so it is difficult to wield.

    2 - a weapon designed for a different wielding (light, one-handed, two-handed) is also difficult to wield, but for the effort only.

    Now, we are talking about the last problem: we must decide what kind of penality suffers a Medium creature wielding a two-handed weapon (designed for her hand) in one hand...

    I think that this situation could happen to any charachter... but how do you master this situation?

    Further in the same page we can read that an Improvised weapon give the wielder a penality of -4 on the attack rolls...

    now, IMO, a -2 penality for a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand is a right and balanced compromise...

    Smile
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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:52 am  

    Sorry to hijack this into a rules discussion, but...

    So, is your character wielding an appropriately sized greatsword, ie, medium sized? If so, the weapon is Large and cannot be wielded one-handed as its size is greater than your human character. Thus, you cannot use more thatn one at a time. (God, I love how the new weapon size rules simplified everything Mad )

    EDIT: This ultimately comes down to a rules balance issue. Your system gives a fighter 3 options:
    1. Bastard sword , one handed, -4 non proficiency penalty to hit, 1d10 damage
    2. Bastard sword, one handed, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, no to hit penalty, 1d10 damage
    3. Greatsword, one handed, -2 to hit penalty for wrong size, 1d12 damage.
    The greatsword is now the best of these three options. Best damage, minimal to hit penalty AND you can still use a shield. Hmmm, I wonder which one I'd take?

    And nothing prevents Monkey-grip from remaining a viable feat. Everything from 3E is by definition forward compatable.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:26 am  

    Eldiel wrote:
    Now, we are talking about the last problem: we must decide what kind of penality suffers a Medium creature wielding a two-handed weapon (designed for her hand) in one hand...

    I think that this situation could happen to any charachter... but how do you master this situation?

    Further in the same page we can read that an Improvised weapon give the wielder a penality of -4 on the attack rolls...

    now, IMO, a -2 penality for a two-handed weapon wielded in one hand is a right and balanced compromise...

    Smile


    Not really.
    The "standard" penalty for wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand is that you can't do it. Likewise the "standard" penalty for wielding a smaller sized two-handed weapon in one hand is -2 to hit and reduced damage.
    "Reducing" the penalty for using a two-handed weapon of your size below that for using an improperly sized weapon, or an improvised weapon is not a compromise. A -8 penalty, double that of using an improvised weapon, might be close to a compromise, but half of that definitely isn't.

    Instead of looking for a "compromise," you would be better off looking for being more reasonable. Just because the rules allow it doesn't mean it makes sense. Check these:
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060414a

    So yeah, you can run around with two small two-handed swords. Between the penalties and the likely disdain of observers, why?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:51 am  

    Quote:
    Instead of looking for a "compromise," you would be better off looking for being more reasonable. Just because the rules allow it doesn't mean it makes sense. Check these:
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060414a


    if you're talking about the hinder... my pc uses an Elhonna's Quiver...

    but regarding all the other considerations you've written... I think you are probably right... I simply misanderstood the rules... Embarassed

    but anyway everything should be alright if the pc gain the Monky-grip feat... right?
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:59 am  

    Eldiel wrote:
    but anyway everything should be alright if the pc gain the Monky-grip feat... right?


    In 3E it would have.
    In 3.5, it won't help you.
    They changed how the feat works so it only allows you to use weapons for a creature larger than your size, it won't let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:37 pm  
    How about this for getting it back on topic?

    Does the Book of Plots have a table of contents or index, or does the book allow the reader to find desired pages? With billions of pages, I wouldn't think even Asmodeus would have time to read it all.

    Scott "-enkainen" Casper

    Yak-Men think monkeys should have monkey grip...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:47 pm  

    Quote:
    Eldiel wrote:
    but anyway everything should be alright if the pc gain the Monky-grip feat... right?


    In 3E it would have.
    In 3.5, it won't help you.
    They changed how the feat works so it only allows you to use weapons for a creature larger than your size, it won't let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand.


    and so? how should I master this situation in your opinion?

    Quote:
    Does the Book of Plots have a table of contents or index, or does the book allow the reader to find desired pages? With billions of pages, I wouldn't think even Asmodeus would have time to read it all.


    The book of Plots opens directly on the pages that his owner is interested to see... but the owner must success in a Spellcraft check with a DC of 30.
    The strings are written in a dark language, understandable only if the creature success in an Intelligence check with a DC of 20... if this roll fails the reader misunderstand the text...
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:04 pm  

    Eldiel wrote:
    Quote:
    In 3E it would have.
    In 3.5, it won't help you.
    They changed how the feat works so it only allows you to use weapons for a creature larger than your size, it won't let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand.


    and so? how should I master this situation in your opinion?


    More completely:

    In 3E, monkey grip let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand.
    In 3.5, monkey grip just lets you use a large size one-handed weapon in one hand, or a large size two-handed weapon in two hands.

    How to deal with this?
    1. Take monkey grip, EWP-bastard sword, and oversized TWF and use two large bastard swords.
    2. Give up a minor amount of damage, take EWP-bastard sword, and oversized TWF and use two medium bastard swords.
    3. Give up a bit more damage, take oversized TWF, and use two medium long swords.
    And to be clear, a "bit of damage" is very little. A large bastard sword does 2d8, a medium bastard sword does 1d10, and a medium long sword does 1d8. The average differerence in damage is 9 / 5.5 / 4.5, the maximum difference in damage is 16 / 10 / 8. The 1-12 points of damage (with a crit) for not using large bastard swords is well worth saving the feat. For cutting your max damage by another 4 points you save another feat. Given that at high levels the vast majority of the damage you do is going to be from bonus damage, you are probably a lot better off with the two feats.

    If you want a magical resolution, talk your DM into letting you put an enchantment on your regular swords that lets them do more damage. Check out the wallop and mighty wallop spells in Races of the Dragon for an example of a spell that allows for such. Of course, you would have to create a version that works on slashing weapons. Then just run around with two short swords that do the damage of two-handed swords.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:39 am  

    Quote:
    If you want a magical resolution, talk your DM into letting you put an enchantment on your regular swords that lets them do more damage. Check out the wallop and mighty wallop spells in Races of the Dragon for an example of a spell that allows for such. Of course, you would have to create a version that works on slashing weapons. Then just run around with two short swords that do the damage of two-handed swords.


    Well... it's not a matter of damage...

    ...and...

    I am MY DM...

    anyway... this PC was born with 3.0 rules... grew with 3.0 rules, and then she had to adapt to the 3.5E... but in this adaptation I simply misunderstood the rules, and I thought the monkey Grip feat became useless... that's all...

    well

    thanks a lot for this advices... and let's close this off topic (but usefull) discussion... I'll be back with news about my campaign... Happy
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