IMC I have salted the borders of the northern coasts of the Azure Sea (including Relmor and Wooly Bays) with some pseudo-Ancient Greek-isms in isolated pockets.
If we move up to Byzantium, for me, the answer is the southern Great Kingdom and Iron League, and their successor/component states. I specifically put Byzantine fashions in this area - http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=743 - and if I ever get time to do the series on art in the Flanaess that I would love to do (except that art is such a HUGE topic) I'd put the like of Byzantine religious icons in this area as well.
Glenn, are you using Greek/Byzantine culture as an analog to Suel culture? If so then why no greekisms in Urnst (especially the Duchy), the SB, or the Barbarians? The latter I could see having lost almost all traits given their adaption such a radically different environment, but Urnst has a such a strong Suel tradition.
(I don't want to thread hijack, so I'm opening this thread)
This is a very large topic and about as big a can of worms. People’s opinions can and will vary and are likely to vary in very strong terms. At the root of any discussion is the whole idea of the historical pastiche or analog or inspiration for any fantasy culture or artifact. Some people will readily accept such, others will as readily reject any such. The truth, I believe lies somewhere in the middle, and, as I will expound in a topical submission now waiting in the que, much depends on how well the pastiche is executed.
In brief, what follows is part of the cultural template I use IMC. I should note immediately that there are notable exceptions to the general rules, as well as contradictions. This is, I think, inevitable as WoG exhibits no single organizing principle in terms of Oerth culture and Earthly culture. (In contrast, compare Aerth that has a much closer analogous relationship with Earth.) Of note, there is no canon right or wrong here as canon is silent, except in a very rare few instances, about direct cultural analogs between Oerth and Earth.
Broad Generalities
The Bakunish are most closely analogous to the peoples of Earth’s Near East – from Turkey and the Levant to the Iranian Plateau at widely various points in historical time. The exact time will make all the difference in the specific culture but for this discussion, the broad generality will do well enough.
The ancient Suel are most closely analogous to the peoples of early Southern Europe and North Africa – Romans, Iberians, southern Gauls, Carthaginians, and ancient Greeks etc.. Immediate objection can be taken here with respect to the cultures of the Levant etc. that influenced or spawned much of the above. There are two responses.
If one wishes, one may assume cultural cross pollination between the ancient Suel and Baklunish that could bridge the cultural analogs. Alternatively, one can truthfully say that the point of the analogy is not to produce an exact copy of the Earthly interrelationships, but rather that the analogy is only meant to be a starting point for the development of the Oerthly fantasy, which will ultimately have its own sense, distinct from the precise Earth analog.
The early Oeridians are most closely analogous to the Dacians, Ostragoths, Visagoths, Franks and Vandals etc.. They are, at least as compared to the Suel and Baklunish, barbarians.
Here please note that I have not identified any of the pre-Migration Suel, Baklunish or Oeridians with any of the cultures of medieval or later Europe. This is intentional. The Migrations will provide the catalyst for a mixing of cultures in the Flanaess that will produce Oerthly cultures that draw inspiration from medieval and later Europe and in the process create something uniquely Greyhawk, not merely an Earth analogy. (For an example of a close Earth analogy compare Aerth, as presented in the Epic of Aerth, to Oerth. Oerth is not Aerth. Nor Earth.)
The Suel Diaspora
In the course of the Migrations, the Suel were scattered most widely. The Sheldomar or Southwestern Suel exhibit characteristics most resembling the ancient, pre-Migration Suel. The Middle Suel of the Urnst States represent a mix of ancient Suel traits but with traits borrowed from the Oeridians and the Flan. The Northern Suel of the Thillonrian Peninsula bear almost no resemblance to the ancient Suel and represent both extreme adaptation to environment and heavy borrowing from the Flan, even as they exterminated them.
If one wishes to place percentages of retained ancient Suel _cultural_ identity on these groups, I would gage it, give or take 10%, as follows:
Southwestern Suel – 70%
Middle Suel – 50%
Northern Suel – 20%
Recall that in each case, there has been forced contact and then cultural exposure to Oeridians and Flan. As an identifiable race, there are no pure Suel, except in particular families or lines/houses or the SB, anywhere. And even in those rare instances, such claims of racial purity must be held suspect after so much time has passed. Suel cultural purity is even more rare.
The Aerdi Empire and Oeridian Cultural Drift
The Aerdi were the strongest of the migrating Oeridian tribes. In their original homeland they had been exposed to the cultures of both the Suel and the Baklunish. Noting the aforementioned analogies, the Aerdi most closely resemble the Byzantines IMC. Their culture is an amalgamation of their own native culture (Dacian and Ostragoth in my analogy) and that of the Suel (think Roman) and the Balkunish (Near Eastern).
IMV, there were tribes of early Oeridians, each with its own unique cultural characteristics, the analogy being to the barbarian invaders of Europe. The Aerdi Empire overlaid much of the individual tribal identities that had previously existed independently among the Oeridian tribes of the Flanaess. This process produced a large degree homogeneity, even as individual differences reasserted themselves as the Aerdi Empire collapsed. At the same time, of course, the Oeridians were encountering Suel and Flan in these same areas, and just depending the Baklunish as well. As a consequence, Oeridian peoples demonstrate the greatest cultural drift in the Flanaess and many Oeridian states bear little or no resemblance to the early Oeridians of the Migrations. Most of the present Oeridian states are analogous to European cultures of the medieval and later periods.
Suel Adaptation
While the Oeridians demonstrate the greatest cultural drift, the Suel demonstrate the most extreme. The continuum runs from the “purity” of the Brotherhood Suel, to the Southwestern Suel, to the Middle Suel and finally, to the hardly recognizable as Suel, Northern Suel.
The Brotherhood Suel remain as racially pure as they do only as a consequence of 1) isolation and 2) draconian breeding practices. However, these very factors have created a culture only darkly resembling the ancient Suel.
The Southwestern Suel remain still predominantly Suel in both racial and (highly relative) cultural terms as a consequence of : 1) relative isolation south of the Fals Gap, 2) a comparatively large population (periodically refreshed by late migrants early in post-Migration history from the relatively nearby homeland), 3) early political organization and consolidation, 4) the lack of overwhelming Oeridian competition early on (no Aerdi), and 5) the sense to coopt that Oeridian competition, the Keogh, that did appear, as well as resident demi-human populations. In the specific case of the Suel of Keoland and in specifically cultural terms, the Suel of Keoland are, in the main, by decision not representative culturally of the ancient Suel.
The Middle Suel of the Urnst States are Suel as much as a political statement as a cultural one. At the crossroads of the Flanaess, the Middle Suel early came into contact with other cultures and were subsequently subsumed into the Aerdi Empire. Being the dominant, but by no means “pure,” culture in the area at the time of entry into the Aerdi Empire, the Urnst Suel were conveniently enshrined as the hereditary rules of Urnst by the Aerdi, who looked only for ease of administration, not racial/cultural pedigree. The Urnst Suel owe their continuing prominence to tradition, a tradition that trades on being Suel. In fact, the Urnst Suel are, except in very, very rare instances, adulterated Suel at best. In fact, along with tradition, it is the fact of this adulteration that allows the Suel of Urnst to remain in power. If the Suel of Keoland can be said to have maintained themselves in power by politically coopting rivals, the Urnst Suel may be said to have maintained themselves in power by widely intermarrying with their rivals and then sharing with them the honor of being accounted “Suel.”
The Northern Suel are, in terms of racial pedigree, the purest Suel, chiefly as a consequence of isolation and the wholesale extermination of native populations early in their history. In cultural terms, the Northern Suel are hardly recognizable as such. Extreme environmental challenges have forced the Northern Suel to abandon almost all of their Suel cultural heritage in order to prosper and thrive. There is here a huge irony. The Northern Suel remain racially pure but culturally more resemble the peoples they exterminated.
In terms of analogy to Earthly cultures:
The Southwestern Suel are an amalgam of Southern European traits carried over from the ancient Suel (see previous listing above) intermixed with strong Anglo-Saxon/Germanic elements derived from the Keogh Oeridians and the native Flan. Interestingly, demi-human cultural impact has been minimal to nonexistent, except if a few notable cases.
The Middle Suel of Urnst, as a consequence of the Oeridian/Aerdi domination of the north-central Flaneaess, demonstrate cultural traits analogous to the medieval and later periods of Europe (see above discussion of Oeridians). They are Suel in name only, as much as genuinely (see percentagediscussion above).
The Northern Suel are analogous the Europe’s Scandinavian cultures. This culture is entirely non-Suel, bearing no resemblance to the culture of the ancient Suel Empire. In this respect, and to a lesser degree with respect to the Middle Suel, I recommend the book – Collapse by Jared Diamond, author of Guns, Germs and Steel – particularly the chapters on the Atlantic Norse colonies and how they adapted to changed environments and native cultures or failed to do so. As applied to the Northern and Middle Suel, and to a lesser extent the Southern Suel, I think we see examples of successful cultural adaptation, with varying strategies and varying successes.
The Flan
I have purposely not discussed the Flan. There are two reasons. First, the Flan are not easily categorized as they do not form a single homogeneous group easily susceptible to quick classification. Second, the Flan are, I believe, one of the most critical distinguishing features of WoG, even as they are the most ignored or trodden upon. In this respect, they are at once too large a topic and one too easily likely to provoke strong reaction to anything other than a treatment equal to the size of the topic. Discretion is the better part of valor for the nonce.
Note – I have tried to keep racial and cultural references distinct. There is, however, a natural tendency to conflate the two and in some cases this is justified, in others not so much. Were this a topical submission (hmmmm), I think a longer discussion breaking down racial drift from cultural drift would be the way to go. I hope the above is, nonetheless, reasonably clear. _________________ GVD
Oerth analogs of Earth cultures are no problem with me so that's not an issue, but I have to strongly disagree with your characterization of what you aptly call the Middle Suel. While I think your description would apply very well to the County, I don't think the same can be applied to the culture of the Duchy. They seem like two very different cultures to me and the latter, from the description in the LGG seems to be a very conservative Suel-dominated culture that has strongly held onto its cultural identity. The Suel of the Duchy were never crushed into submission by the Great Kingdom and they always feared corruption of their pure Suel culture. It explicitly states that the Overking took a hands-off policy after disbanding the Senate and placing all power in the palatine Duchy into the hands of a Duke selected by Suloise noble. Given that and the description of the Duchy's inhabitants as being "paranoid and proud of their lineage in the extreme," I don't believe they would throw a large part of their culture away for that of foreigners, no matter how much money those foreigners invest in the infrastructure of their nation.
While I'm sure there are large cultural differences between the inhabitants of Duchal Urnst and their ancestors in the Suloise Imperium I believe most of it would have to come from passage of time, not cross cultural hybridization. The only real arguments I can see for the situation being otherwise are the predominence of Cuthbert worshippers among the rural population and that Common is the most spoken tongue. The former I believe proves nothing since Cuthbert is attached to no particular ethnic group. Common being the predominant language also means nothing since it is also (and rather mysteriously I've always thought, given its description) the predominant language of Keoland. I've always chalked that up more to making the game easier to play.
. . . I have to strongly disagree with your characterization of what you aptly call the Middle Suel. While I think your description would apply very well to the County, I don't think the same can be applied to the culture of the Duchy. They seem like two very different cultures to me and the latter, from the description in the LGG seems to be a very conservative Suel-dominated culture that has strongly held onto its cultural identity. The Suel of the Duchy were never crushed into submission by the Great Kingdom and they always feared corruption of their pure Suel culture. It explicitly states that the Overking took a hands-off policy after disbanding the Senate and placing all power in the palatine Duchy into the hands of a Duke selected by Suloise noble. Given that and the description of the Duchy's inhabitants as being "paranoid and proud of their lineage in the extreme," I don't believe they would throw a large part of their culture away for that of foreigners, no matter how much money those foreigners invest in the infrastructure of their nation.
While I'm sure there are large cultural differences between the inhabitants of Duchal Urnst and their ancestors in the Suloise Imperium I believe most of it would have to come from passage of time, not cross cultural hybridization.
Here is my thinking:
By way of preamble, I cannot but rhetorically wonder from where the “canon” for the Duchy of Urnst that appears in the LGG arose. Resisting the urge to go Wee Jas on the author’s retcon canon, that is neither here nor there, as it is canon now. So to cases.
The Suel come in two flavors – good and bad. The “good” Suel settled in the Sheldomar. The bad Suel were put down and to rout. Part of Keoland’s uniqueness is its (relatively) good Suel. Until, of course, the LGG apparently tried to have it both ways for the Duchy of Urnst:
“Though the Suel of Urnst were less debauched than most of their kinsmen, they remained paranoid and proud of their lineage in the extreme.” LGG, p. 125
The above quote must, however, be read in context. First, of the Suel of Urnst, we know most about the Maure, in whose lands were based the initial seat of Urnst Suel power. LGG, p. 125, Para 3. The Maure were “less debauched?” If canon says so, I suppose. Second, Suel power in Urnst waned in the decades after 124 CY, as “the Senate had grown effete and corrupt” to the point that these “paranoid and proud of their lineage” Suel sold themselves to the Aerdi Oeridians (more charitably they acceptted an inferior position to Oeridians or Oeridian overlordship in the form of the Aerdi). LGG, p. 125. The Aerdi then disbanded the Senate and had the Suel nobility select their Duke. See id. Finally, the “’pure’” Suel culture of the Duchy at the time is called into question by the use of quotes around the word – pure.
Like a great deal of canon, the foregoing can be read in a number of ways. To me, it says:
1)The bad, pure Suel ran Urnst before 124 CY;
2)However, they eventually became debased to the point where they would sell themselves to non-Suel (so much for “paranoid and proud of their lineage”);
3)While the Duchy continued to claim a “pure” Suel culture, that purity was as much imaginary as real.
To this reading I note that, prior to the LGG’s retcon Suel of Urnst, the bad Suel were everyone but the Rhola and Neheli and were outside of the Sheldomar put down or to rout. Reconciling old and new canon, I come up with my analysis of the Middle Suel.
To illustrate how this can work – how you can have both a predominantly Suel nobility but also one which intermarries outside strictly Suel bloodlines:
Lord X has an elder son and both a younger son and daughter. The elder son will inherit and will be wed to a lady of another Suel family in Urnst. The younger son and daughter may be preferrably married to the heirs to another Suel family in Urnst but if politically expedient may be married to an Oeridian or perhaps even a Flan of sufficient standing or importance to the family. The direct line is thus kept “pure” while the cadet lines become part Suel and part something else, but by virtue of being part Suel are accounted superior to familes who are only Oeridian or Flan. And they will trumpet their Suel blood as a link to power, the more so because they are not fully Suel – “methinks the lady doth rotest too much.”
Now, extend this pattern for generations. Unless the direct line is very careful, over time, they may marry into “adulterated” Suel lines that have some intermixed cadet line blood in them. The result is that the direct lines become something less than fully Suel. This reads well, IMO, with the gradual corruption of the Urnst Suel to the point where they would be willing to sell out to the Oeridian Aerdi. Remember from the LGG text – the Urnst Suel did not know at the time they sold themselves to the Aerdi Oeridians that they would be allowed to choose their own leader! In other words, not knowing that they would be allowed to select their own Duke, and even suspecting that the Duke might be Oeridian or that at least Oeridian “advisors” would be appointed, they still were sufficiently corrupt to sell themselves to the Oeridians, or more charitably – to accept a position subordinate to Oeridians. This is not the act of, and these are not the “paranoid and proud of their lineage,” Suel of pre-124 CY IMO!
I see my take on the Middle Suel as having a good foundation in what we know of the Suel of Urnst.
Then there is the metagame consideration. Keoland has the “good Suel.” It is part of what makes Keoland unique. The other Suel were, pre-LGG, described by comparison as not good and put down or to rout. The LGG creates in the Urnst Suel the “Not So Bad Suel” – not as good as the Rhola or Neheli but not so vicious (The Maure? ) as to be put down or to rout. IMO, this lessens the dramatic impact of Keoland’s Suel and their story and I don’t care for it one bit. IMO, Keoland has the good Suel and the rest are not good. The LGG’s retcon Not So Bad Suel does a disservice to the setting to this extent IMO. Again, I find my take does as much as possible to recognize the new canon but to also preserve for the Rhola and the Neheli their chief distinguishing characteristic – they are the Suel who didn’t get run off or put down and who hold power as distinctly Suel. See Folio and derivative 83 boxed set.
This is my reasoning for the Middle Suel as presented. YMMV.
NB - Just to quote: "Perhaps the biggest asset the Oeridians had, however, was the vileness of the Suloise - the majority lied, stole, slew, and enslaved whenever they had the inclination and opportunity. There were exceptions, of course, such as the Houses of Rhola and Neheli - late migrants who settled and held the Sheldomar as already mentioned." WoG Guide, p. 8, 83 Box Set. If the Suel of the Duchy of Urnst, situated as it is at the crossroads of the Flanaess and so near the City of Greyhawk, were intended to be one of the "exceptions" like the Neheli and Rhola I think they would have been mentioned. They were not. Instead, Gygax gave us the Maure in Urnst. FtA is even more emphatic on the point. The notion of "Not So Bad Suel" of Urnst, I see as purely a LGG creation and one appearing wholecloth because the author's personal GH campaign was set in the Duchy and he wanted a "cool Suel" connection for his pet area of the Flanaess, even if that meant making Keoland less unique. MUST. RESIST. URGE. TO. GO. WEE JAS. _________________ GVD
The early Kingdom of Urnst was "slightly tyrannical," according to The Adventure Begins (page 55). They weren't "good Suel," but neither were they as purely vile as those of Onnwal or Shar. They were, in the middle of the Flanaess, something of a middle ground.
The Maure, as defined in the LGG, were a union of three minor noble families, and I'm sure some of these families were worse than others. Most of the nobles spread throughout the land in order to manage their holdings, and the nation's seat of government shifted to Seltaren. Those few who remained behind in Castle Maure grew more insular and antisocial (gaining a "well-deserved reputation for eccentricity, poverty, and insanity"); though they all didn't start out wicked (Slerotin wasn't such a bad guy, after all, and they were his apprentices), they became so as time went on. As they lost political power, as their mines ran dry and they lost their source of mundane wealth, they grew embittered and grim, seeking more terrible arcane powers to compensate.
The LGG and Dungeon 112 both describe this process very vividly, so there isn't much doubt that this is how it happened.
I don't think the comparison of the Suel with the Roman Empire works very well, primarily because, despite its nomadic founders, the early Great Kingdom so obviously fills the role of Rome in the history of the Flanaess - building roads, unifying much of the continent, bringing civilization to the barbarians, and finally maturing into an apt Byzantine comparison. The Suel are the ones with senates, to be sure, but other than that the parallel is weak. Rome is too mundane for the Suel Imperium, which is pure fantasy - it is rather Atlantis or Aryan Thule. It is Melnibone or Hyperborea. The Suel influence doesn't give the Flanaess its European character; it gives it its alien, eldritch character. From the Silent Ones to the Scarlet Brotherhood to the warlocks of the Maure to the grim shamans of the northlanders, what the descendants of the Suel share most of all is an uncanniness.
The Suel never had the pragmatism or practicality of the Romans, nor their lack of creativity or willingness to borrow what was good from other civilizations. They were insular, dreamy; surrounded by mountains, they looked only inward. As Ivid the Undying explained, their magics tended toward the subtle, their gods unsuited for war. They were too effete, cruel, and whimsical to make good soldiers, which is why they turned to humanoid mercenaries in the end.
The Oeridians, on the other hand, managed to be both Romans and Visigoths at different points in their history, playing these roles in reverse order. They were Vandals to the Baklunish, the Suel, and the Flan, finally becoming Romans to rebuild what they had destroyed centuries before.
The early Kingdom of Urnst was "slightly tyrannical," according to The Adventure Begins (page 55). They weren't "good Suel," but neither were they as purely vile as those of Onnwal or Shar. They were, in the middle of the Flanaess, something of a middle ground.
I don't have my FtA immediately handy but it notes that there were only two areas where post-Migration the Suel held power as Suel - the Southwest and the Brotherhood. Everywhere else, presumably then, they did not hold power. Accordingly, Urnst is out of luck and the LGG arguably violates established canon, even as it creates canon.
rasgon wrote:
I don't think the comparison of the Suel with the Roman Empire works very well, primarily because, despite its nomadic founders, the early Great Kingdom so obviously fills the role of Rome in the history of the Flanaess - building roads, unifying much of the continent, bringing civilization to the barbarians, and finally maturing into an apt Byzantine comparison. The Suel are the ones with senates, to be sure, but other than that the parallel is weak. Rome is too mundane for the Suel Imperium, which is pure fantasy - it is rather Atlantis or Aryan Thule. It is Melnibone or Hyperborea. The Suel influence doesn't give the Flanaess its European character; it gives it its alien, eldritch character. From the Silent Ones to the Scarlet Brotherhood to the warlocks of the Maure to the grim shamans of the northlanders, what the descendants of the Suel share most of all is an uncanniness.
The Aerdi played the role of Rome in the Flanaess, no doubt. That does not mean they must necessarily be built upon the premise that they were analogous to Rome, of course. IMV, I split the difference have have the Aerdi as Byzantine-like.
I see the Suel as early Southern European, see OP, whose most notable culture was arguably Rome, hence the shorthand. IMC, the mix is Rome with the other listed societies thrown into the mix by degrees. In the specific context of Rome, I see the Suel most closely analogous to Rome in Rome's most decadent and grandiose elements. Not in Rome's military or road building.
Your point about the "otherness" of the Suel is extremely well taken, IMO. We were discussing cultural analogies and I stuck to historical ones. If we broaden the discussion to include fantasy literature, I am among that group that sees the Suel as much like the Melniboneans, and a number of CAS' cultures, among others.
Romans _and_ Melniboneans etc.? IMC, yes. Recalling that the analogies are not definitional as much as inspirational. I then draw inspiration for a number of sources. _________________ GVD
The real problem with Urnst and the Suel is that it shouldn't be a bastion of the Suel.
From the folio and glossography:
"The County of Urnst is populated by a mixture of peoples, most being of Oerid stock, but hostile towards the Aerdi, unwilling to serve a Nyrondal monarch."
Nothing is given for the racial composition of the Duchy of Urnst in the text on the nation, and nothing in the brief history suggests the creation of a Suel nation there. Interestingly, in Greyhawk Adventures, Duke Karll has brown hair and green eyes, both being more typical of Oeridians than Suloise. And, more peculiarly, looking at Dragon #52 with the first foray into birth location tables and languages, we find that the County and Duchy both have a chance of people speaking Flan and Oeridian, but no chance of them speaking Suloise.
Despite this, it is given a racial composition of SO in the glossography. Indeed, that even contradicts itself, as the glossography entry on race begins with:
"Of course, the races of demi-humans are relatively unmixed, but humankind, as is its wont, has industriously intermixed in the central regions to form a hybrid type which has actually become the norm."
and,
"In the central regions of the Flanaess, from western Urnst Duchy to Geoff, there is little heed paid to either skin color or racial type, whether human or demi-human (or even humanoid in some places)."
So Urnst is definitely central, but apparently racially pure.
So if you want to identify where the canon contradiction came from, look no further than the glossography, and the racial dispositions there.
The whole thing becomes a lot easier if you just treat the whole Suel nation of Urnst as an "oopsie" and revise from there.
The real problem with Urnst and the Suel is that it shouldn't be a bastion of the Suel.
From the folio and glossography:
"The County of Urnst is populated by a mixture of peoples, most being of Oerid stock, but hostile towards the Aerdi, unwilling to serve a Nyrondal monarch."
See A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, page 13:
"The inhabitants of the Duchy of Ernst [sic] are nearly of pure Suel race."
The Glossography doesn't give racial compositions. Those appear on page 14 of the the Guide, which skipped Duchy Urnst because it had already established on the previous page that the land was almost entirely Suloise.
Last edited by rasgon on Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Yes, I know. My point is, that contradicts the other quotes about the central Flanaess being racially mixed, as well as the other references I've cited.
I think someone just forgot to do some cross-checking.
Yes, I know. My point is, that contradicts the other quotes about the central Flanaess being racially mixed, as well as the other references I've cited.
I think someone just forgot to do some cross-checking.
I think it's an exception, rather than a contradiction. I think that The Adventure Begins (and, later, the LGG) gave a pretty good rationale for that exception by assuming an independent Suel nation existed there at some point.
I don't think there's anything particularly damning in your other examples. I don't have any problem with assuming Karll is atypical of his people - probably some of his ancestors come from noble houses of other nations (including County Urnst).
Not even the location and language tables from Dragon #52 where Suel isn't on the list for Duchy Urnst?
Or the difficulty in dealing with more nice Suel roaming about?
Particularly the difficulty with dealing with a surprise bastion of racial purity in the middle of the continent.
If the Maure need to be Suloise, I would have them, as a limited group, seize control over a predominatly Oeridian population in both Urnsts, before losing control to their mixed race subjects years later.
I don't have my FtA immediately handy but it notes that there were only two areas where post-Migration the Suel held power as Suel - the Southwest and the Brotherhood. Everywhere else, presumably then, they did not hold power. Accordingly, Urnst is out of luck and the LGG arguably violates established canon, even as it creates canon.
I know the quote you're talking about, on page 3 of the Atlas.
"The Suel invaders lied, cheated, stole, enslaved, pillaged, and killed out of hand. Over time, the Flannae and demihumans allied with the Oeridians to drive the Suel to ever more distant fringes of the Flanaess: into the northeastern Barbarian lands and into the southern jungles of Amedio and Hepmonaland.
"On the main continental land mass, the Suel retained a foothold only in the southwest and in the lands that would eventually belong to the Scarlet Brotherhood."
They're not talking merely about "holding power" here - they're making it sound like the Suel had been driven out of the rest of the Flanaess entirely (with half-breeds possibly excepted). This sounds pretty fatal to the idea of a Suel nation in Urnst, but 9 pages later it says this:
"On the main continent, the Duchy of Urnst has the largest (proportionately) enclave of Suloise."
Which can be taken to mean that the folk of Urnst are more purely Suloise even than the Scarlet Brotherhood, which must have a smaller enclave of Suel proportionate to its overall population. This is, I think, obviously nonsense, but nonetheless it's what the book says.
I can see where someone might interpret this as meaning that it was only the independent Suel who were driven out of the Flanaess, and the Suel of Urnst didn't count because, although mysteriously pure, they were thoroughly conquered by the Oeridians.
However, an equally valid interpretation is to assume that the sentence describing the Suel driven away was predicated on the preceding sentence, which describes how they lied, cheated, and stole. If the Maure didn't do those things, the second sentence doesn't apply to them.
I think the purity laws described in LGG are a pretty good way to explain why the people of Urnst didn't interbreed with their neighbors as everyone else in the central Flanaess did. If they were not independent, this becomes much harder to explain. It also becomes difficult to explain why the duchy is currently LG and NG in alignment; surely not the influence of neighboring Nyrond, which is merely LN. The Maure weren't "good" Suel, but neither were they as vile as those who the Flannae, demihumans, and Oeridians united against. Those that remained in Castle Maure became that vile, or even more so, but most of them didn't start out that way.
The Kingdom of Urnst was first introduced in TBA, incidently, not the LGG. Some of the LGG entry is from the history of Urnst posted by Erik Mona to Greytalk in 1997, but the specific name of the kingdom was introduced by Roger E. Moore a few years before the LGG came to print. Erik originally called the region simply the Maure Lands.
"On the main continental land mass, the Suel retained a foothold only in the southwest and in the lands that would eventually belong to the Scarlet Brotherhood."
They're not talking merely about "holding power" here - they're making it sound like the Suel had been driven out of the rest of the Flanaess entirely (with half-breeds possibly excepted).
It also contradicts where it says that four (who is that fourth?) Suel houses held in the northeast (the Thillronian peninsula).
So again, we have a lapse in editing.
Quote:
This sounds pretty fatal to the idea of a Suel nation in Urnst, but 9 pages later it says this:
"On the main continent, the Duchy of Urnst has the largest (proportionately) enclave of Suloise."
Which can be taken to mean that the folk of Urnst are more purely Suloise even than the Scarlet Brotherhood, which must have a smaller enclave of Suel proportionate to its overall population. This is, I think, obviously nonsense, but nonetheless it's what the book says.
Perhaps it meant numerically, as the Duchy has 250,000 people and the Brotherhood is listed as having only 40,000.
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I can see where someone might interpret this as meaning that it was only the independent Suel who were driven out of the Flanaess, and the Suel of Urnst didn't count because, although mysteriously pure, they were thoroughly conquered by the Oeridians.
However, an equally valid interpretation is to assume that the sentence describing the Suel driven away was predicated on the preceding sentence, which describes how they lied, cheated, and stole. If the Maure didn't do those things, the second sentence doesn't apply to them.
Except the Maure did do those things. Or at least engaged in some extremely bad behavior.
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I think the purity laws described in LGG are a pretty good way to explain why the people of Urnst didn't interbreed with their neighbors as everyone else in the central Flanaess did. If they were not independent, this becomes much harder to explain. It also becomes difficult to explain why the duchy is currently LG and NG in alignment; surely not the influence of neighboring Nyrond, which is merely LN. The Maure weren't "good" Suel, but neither were they as vile as those who the Flannae, demihumans, and Oeridians united against. Those that remained in Castle Maure became that vile, or even more so, but most of them didn't start out that way.
Also take note that the Duchy became "purer" from FtA to the LGG, going from So to S in the racial description. Apparently there was something ethnic cleansing following the GH Wars.
Not even the location and language tables from Dragon #52 where Suel isn't on the list for Duchy Urnst?
That's an inconsistency, but I don't see why that would be a major problem. The language died out; that tells us much about cultural trends, but doesn't prove anything with regard to cultural origins.
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Or the difficulty in dealing with more nice Suel roaming about?
The Maure weren't "nice" - they just weren't nasty enough for the demihumans to help kick them out. They were still deeply flawed, but not so much that the elves, dwarves, and gnomes saw them as substantially worse than the Oeridians. I don't see a difficulty. It could be that the Maure were simply better diplomats than the Suel elsewhere, or they might have been actually just as bad as other Suel but seemed good compared to, for example, Carashast (do we have a date on when Carashast lived?).
If there's difficulty, it's only if we're tempted to make the history of the Maure in Urnst too much like the history of the Rhola and Neheli in Keoland. I think they're described as different enough, however; the Rhola and Neheli ultimately joined with the Oeridians to live together in harmony. The Maure rejected the Oeridians, and joined with the demihumans to retain their independence. The Maure were substantially more despotic/tyrannical than the early Keoish rulers, but not more than the local Nerondi.
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Particularly the difficulty with dealing with a surprise bastion of racial purity in the middle of the continent.
General rules often have exceptions. This is one of them. The central Flanaess is racially mixed, except in Duchy Urnst.
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If the Maure need to be Suloise, I would have them, as a limited group, seize control over a predominatly Oeridian population in both Urnsts, before losing control to their mixed race subjects years later.
I think that's a reasonable approach, but it contradicts the text that clearly has the Duchy of Urnst as almost pure Suel. While the difficulties you note in this are real, I don't think they contradict the "pure Suel" story so badly that it needs to be thrown out.
It also contradicts where it says that four (who is that fourth?) Suel houses held in the northeast (the Thillronian peninsula). So again, we have a lapse in editing.
It just says that the Suel were driven into the Northeast barbarian lands - I don't see a mention of houses. From the context, Carl Sargent didn't count the peninsula as the "main continent," as he specifically contrasts the two areas.
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Perhaps it meant numerically
Perhaps. It says proportionately, but that might indeed have been an error.
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Except the Maure did do those things. Or at least engaged in some extremely bad behavior.
I'm sure that's true to some extent; that would be part of the "slight tyranny." And it's possible, as I said in my previous post, that they only seemed mild compared to the local Oeridians. But I don't see anything in either the LGG or the Dungeon issue that describes them as lying, cheating, or stealing. It seems open to interpretation exactly how bad they were; it's not clear-cut that they were extremely bad, at least not until the rulers of Castle Maure lost their wealth and power.
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Also take note that the Duchy became "purer" from FtA to the LGG, going from So to S in the racial description. Apparently there was something ethnic cleansing following the GH Wars.
You're right; Duchy Urnst is actually described as SO in From the Ashes. That contradicts the 1983 set, though, which had it as S. The reference cards in FtA sometimes contradicted the earlier boxed set (for example, Ket's alignment, Raxivort's racial origin, Wenta's existence) - in those cases, the Gazetteer reverted to the original version.
I know the quote you're talking about, on page 3 of the Atlas.
"The Suel invaders lied, cheated, stole, enslaved, pillaged, and killed out of hand. Over time, the Flannae and demihumans allied with the Oeridians to drive the Suel to ever more distant fringes of the Flanaess: into the northeastern Barbarian lands and into the southern jungles of Amedio and Hepmonaland.
"On the main continental land mass, the Suel retained a foothold only in the southwest and in the lands that would eventually belong to the Scarlet Brotherhood."
They're not talking merely about "holding power" here - they're making it sound like the Suel had been driven out of the rest of the Flanaess entirely (with half-breeds possibly excepted). This sounds pretty fatal to the idea of a Suel nation in Urnst, but 9 pages later it says this:
"On the main continent, the Duchy of Urnst has the largest (proportionately) enclave of Suloise."
Yes. That is the passage I was referencing.
Note - "enclave." I know you know what an enclave is but for the folks playing the home version of our game - An "enclave" is a grouping defined by being surrounded by or juxtaposed with a greater entity. Thus, in the Duchy of Urnst, the larger body, there is an enclave, a smaller body, of Suel, who happen to be proportionally sizeable compared to other such Suel enclaves on "the main continent."
Thus, I am back to my reading of the LGG material, set out more fully, supra -
1)The bad, pure Suel ran Urnst before 124 CY;
2)However, they eventually became debased to the point where they would willingly give themselves over to non-Suel rule (so much for “paranoid and proud of their lineage”);
3)While the Duchy continued to claim a “pure” Suel culture, that purity was as much imaginary as real.
Etc., see supra.
I think I have threaded the tortuous canon needle here, not that it is the only way it might be threaded, and avoided the "Not So Bad Suel" notion that tends to make Keoland Suel less unique.
I don't find anything supportive of a pure Suel ruling class in the modern day Duchy of Urnst. We find references to the Suel of the Duchy becoming effete and corrupt circa 124CY and then agreeing to be ruled by Oeridians, without knowing before hand how much self-goverance the Oeridians would grant them. If these are pure Suel, who are not "good" Suel apeing the Neheli and Rhola, I find it impossible that such "not good Suel," if pure and proud of it would EVER meekly accept Oeridian overlordship. Heck. Even the "good Suel" Neheli and Rhola would not accept Oeridian Keogh dominance! No pure Suel, good, bad or whatever, do I see willingly allowing themselves to be ruled by non-Suel. So how do we explain this anomolous behavior?
If the pure "good Suel" of Keoland insisted on ruling, and we know the pure "bad Suel" insisted on ruling, what kind of pure Suel in the Duchy allow themselves to be ruled by non-Suel? The "wimpy Suel?" The "extra special nice and reasonable Suel who are pure and proud but let others rule them?"
The problem with the whole notion of the "Not So Bad Suel" of the Duchy is that they would naturally fall between the known extremes of the "good Suel" of Keoland and the "bad Suel" of everywhere else who got run out or dominated. Yet in both extremes the pure Suel, good or bad, insist on ruling. So too should the "Not So Bad Suel" of the Duchy, as they fall between these extremes. Its a cultural thing - Pure Suel Gotta Rule. Hence, the Suel of the Duchy cannot be pure as they, without a fight, gave themselves over to Oeridian rule, with no guarantee of home ruleup front.
The behavior of the Suel of the Duchy is so completely at odds with the behavior of the pure Keoland "good Suel" _AND_ the pure "bad Suel" that it is almost inconcievable that the Suel of the Duchy were pure much past 124 CY.
Thus, I return to my prior posts setting forth my notion of the Middle Suel - in short - they are substantially adulterated and no longer racially pure - but they make that claim for the reasons I previously set out in my prior posts. This reading:
1) Finesses the canon questions;
2) Explains the otherwise anomolous behavior of the "pure" Suel of the Duchy (note even the LGG puts the word - pure - in quotes); and
3) Maintains Keoland as the sole and unique nation of the Flanaess to be run by pure Suel, who are also good, or at least reasonably able to play well with others.
Given - Pure Suel? Gotta Rule
Corollary - Don't Rule? Not Pure Suel
It is that simple. IMO. YMMV. _________________ GVD
If the pure "good Suel" of Keoland insisted on ruling, and we know the pure "bad Suel" insisted on ruling, what kind of pure Suel in the Duchy allow themselves to be ruled by non-Suel? The "wimpy Suel?" The "extra special nice and reasonable Suel who are pure and proud but let others rule them?"
Per the LGG, they were the "greedy Suel." The Senate sold the nation to the Great Kingdom in exchange for treasure. Neither wimpiness nor reasonableness were factors.
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The behavior of the Suel of the Duchy is so completely at odds with the behavior of the pure Keoland "good Suel" _AND_ the pure "bad Suel" that it is almost inconcievable that the Suel of the Duchy were pure much past 124 CY.
Not ideologically pure, perhaps, but that doesn't mean they weren't ethnically pure. We have reason to suspect their culture had lost its original language, and we know they had adopted, or would adopt, non-Suel gods such as Pelor and St. Cuthbert, so their cultural purity isn't really in question. Deducing from this anything about their ethnic make-up, however, seems specious.
The desire for self-rule isn't specifically Suloise in any case; it's something that's common among nearly all peoples. I don't see why Suel-Oerids would be any more likely to wish to subordinate themselves to a distant, foreign power than pure Suel would be.
I think the main problem for me is I don't really see the Suel of the Duchy as having been conquered so much as co-opted. In 124 the GK pretty much said "Accept annexation or be conquered" to which the Urnst replied "Get stuffed!" It was 65 years later that the Suel of the Duchy were finally able to be bribed into accepting the "hands-off" overlordship of the GK. Accepting the LGG and WoGG population descriptions as canon (Despite Sam's well-raised contradictions), how is a country that was never really conquered, that never had any considerable influx of foreigners (unless the GK shipped in Aerdi-ized Suel citizens from other parts of the Kingdom) going to adopt an alien culture? I'm not saying that the their culture wouldn't have changed but I don't see it being any less "Suloise" than Keoland's.
Well, I think it boils down to a difference of opinion on how the sources read and what they suggest, as well as any personal desire to see one outcome as more desireable than another. While I think my read is a good one, I can understand how there is room for other reads. I can also understand why the "Suel cool" factor can prompt people to want there to be more "Suel coolness" spread around. I think, however, that removed from the unique context of Keoland, that is to say looking to ape Keoland's Suel elsewhere, substantially undercuts the objective of Suel "coolness." The more Suel, the less cool they become. _________________ GVD
I can also understand why the "Suel cool" factor can prompt people to want there to be more "Suel coolness" spread around.
Rest assured, I have not become afflicted with "Suel cool" syndrome. The Suel aren't any more interesting to me than any of the other Greyhawk races. And I certainly don't wish for the Urnst Suel to "ape" Keoland's Suel. In fact, I listed a number of real differences between the two.
I'm not even necessarily trying to champion the idea of a purely Suel Urnst as more desirable than the Suel-Oerid version. My only goal in this thread was to defend the idea that a purely Suel Urnst was faithful to prior canon, and reasonable in itself.
smillan_31 wrote:
how is a country that was never really conquered, that never had any considerable influx of foreigners (unless the GK shipped in Aerdi-ized Suel citizens from other parts of the Kingdom) going to adopt an alien culture? I'm not saying that the their culture wouldn't have changed but I don't see it being any less "Suloise" than Keoland's.
I don't think they're less Suloise than Keoland (which is heavily Oeridian, after all). However, their position in the central Flanaess, with all the trade from Nyrond passing through Urnst on the way to the Nyr Dyv, and much of the trade from Greyhawk passing through Urnst on the way to Nyrond, and the neighboring County heavily Oeridized, I think some contamination is inevitable. Whether it's reasonable for them to have entirely lost their original language is somewhat debatable - it does seem unlikely, especially given their alleged extreme cultural pride and paranoia. The great power and influence of foreign churches helps explain things somewhat, but I think you need a period where Suel is actually forbidden and someone - probably a dictatorial Senate more interested in wealth than preserving their culture - deliberately trying to wipe it out. I think it's easier to just ignore the Dragon reference, but it's not impossible to imagine the Senate deciding unilaterally that the Suel language had become an unacceptable barrier to free trade and demanding that all citizens speak Common. The later Aerdi rule would only enforce this trend.
I'm not saying the Urnsti would be culturally like the Keoish. I'm not arguing who is more Suel, Keoland or the Duchy. I'm just saying they would have their own culture which would be identified mainly as a Suel culture, not Oeridian. Urnsti culture would not "ape" Keoish culture. How could it?
So we agree to disagree (Although I think Rasgon and I essentially agree). That's good enough for me. I can see the points that everyone has made and beyond just differences in how we read it there is the problem of inconsistencies in the sources.
A thousand years is a long damned time for a culture, regardless of where it is and what else is going on around it. The Suel of Urnst are not going to particularly resemble the Suel of the Empire or even of Keoland after that long a period of time and that much geographical seperation. Regardless of whether they are good, bad, or indifferent Suel.
I think its silly to think that they survived a millenium in the midst of the Oeridians and didn't mingle. They aren't geographically isolated. What is to keep immigrants and traders out except draconian discrimination, which would get Furyondy and Nyrond bent out of shape?
Still, there is no reason why they shouldn't have some notable cultural differences from their neighbors that reflect their different ancestry. And they can be extremely proud of those differences (witness any number of such communities in the real world).
I think its silly to think that they survived a millenium in the midst of the Oeridians and didn't mingle. They aren't geographically isolated. What is to keep immigrants and traders out except draconian discrimination, which would get Furyondy and Nyrond bent out of shape?
I think its silly to think that they survived a millenium in the midst of the Oeridians and didn't mingle. They aren't geographically isolated. What is to keep immigrants and traders out except draconian discrimination, which would get Furyondy and Nyrond bent out of shape?
Agreed. Racial or culturally pure Suel in the Duchy of Urnst seems a stretch given the circumstances. _________________ GVD
Here's an idea: the Suel of Urnst practice endogamy. They inbreed, marrying cousins[ or even siblings!] rather than strangers. Maybe in recent years the practice has declined. Of course, generations of inbreeding could lead to birth defects and congenital madness.
As to why or how they kept racially distinct but lost their language, I don't know. That does seem a bit odd.
Here's an idea: the Suel of Urnst practice endogamy. They inbreed, marrying cousins[ or even siblings!] rather than strangers. Maybe in recent years the practice has declined. Of course, generations of inbreeding could lead to birth defects and congenital madness.
As to why or how they kept racially distinct but lost their language, I don't know. That does seem a bit odd.
There are hints of inbreeding in the LGG where it says "..and those few nobles who remained in western Urnst soon gained a well-deserved reputation for eccentricity, poverty, and insanity."
Good call.
I gave my non-gamer wife an outline of the whole situation just to see what an unbiased opinion might be and she thought the most improbable thing was that Urnst's bloodlines remained pure Suel given their location and that it was brought into the GK for additional trade routes. As she put it "There's no way all those people are going through there without some of them hooking up and making some babies."
We know from the LGG entry that they did practice some forms of "racial hygiene" though we're assured that was "long-since" past.
Here's a new thought. The LGG describes the code letters as lower case signifying an ethnic group is in the minority with upper case indicating it is widespread. If we were talking about the letter codes signifying ethnic identity rather than bloodline the lone upper case S could make sense. Even if the Suel intermarried with Oeridian and Flan (well, maybe not Flan), "impure" Suel bloodlines would still be considered ethnically Suel because culturally they would remain so. Plus it bolsters my argument for a "pure" (though evolved) Suel culture That would also explain Duke Karll's brown hair and green eyes.
Endogamy is rather a stretch, I'd say. Its generally not practiced without some sort of discrimination involved. Endogamous rules in the real world usually involve caste structures, though there are a few examples of religious and ethnic endogamy. In all cases, its a matter of someone saying "we are better than they are".
Btw, the population of the Duchy is large enough to avoid inbreeding if they are not specifically practicing it. Though perhaps a subset, such as the nobility, might not. Which is the specific reference in the text (nobles could not sire half breeds legally).
So the problem with having the S rating justified by Suel racial endogamy is that the Duchy of Urnst is generally portrayed as being on pretty good terms with its neighbors. Its hard to reconcile sufficient bigotry to support a general population ethnic endogamy with the fact that they get along well with Nyrond, the elves, and others. Not to mention a complete lack of social ties from marriage and kinship that would help stablize relations.
There is also the question of why it was cool for the Suel of the County to mingle, but not their kin in the Duchy (Sure, the County had Flan and Oeridian inhabitants already, but the political power was still "Duchy" Urnst until the County was sold. And why they adopted non Suel faiths (St. Cuthbert, Pelor) wholesale. And where the half elves and half orcs come from in the population lists... :P
A Duchy of Urnst with pretensions of "Suel-ness" and a generally suel phenotype is certainly reasonable, but a bastion of racial purity in the midst of centuries of friendly contact with other ethnicities just doesn't do it for me.
a bastion of racial purity in the midst of centuries of friendly contact with other ethnicities just doesn't do it for me.
I agree with this. I'd instead favor taking the 1983 box and FtA literally - the Duchy Urnst has more pure or nearly pure Suel than anywhere else in the central Flanaess, but it is indeed mixed in many cases, mostly with Oeridian blood, especially in the cities. The land doesn't even have to have a generally Suel phenotype; it is enough that it has a substantial enclave of Suel.
The Suel Maure Lands/Kingdom of Urnst can still be part of its history without stretching credibility, I think.
Hey all, I don't know if i'm elaborating on a dead topic or not but I'd like to toss in my 2 cents worth. IMHO the Suel have the most in common with the pre-european Gothic tribes that crossed the caucusus mts and split into tribes historically known as the Ostra and Visa Goths. In this analogy the Suel, fleeing the Twin Cataclysms, over the Hellfurnaces split into the Western Suel of Keoland and the Eastern Suel of the Urnsts,
Thrillonians, and Scarlet Brotherhood.
From here the comparison gets convaluted, as the migrations are reversed from thier historical counterparts. The Keoish Suel, follwing the structure of the visagoths, settle into a Castellian Spain type culture, with the Suelish nobles keeping thier bloodlines seperate from the 'superstitious' peasants of flan and baklunish descent. The model holds up further in the Keoish proximity to the Baklunish west, which have obvious common traits with Arabic and Moorish conterparts.
The Eastern Suel, as well, have a lot in common with the Ostragoths of history. The Great Kingdom has often been compared to the Roman Empire, so keeping with the analogy, the Urnstian Suel were forced to accept Aerdian rule as subordinate yet disctinct ethnicity. Such as the Sarmatians.
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