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    Canonfire :: View topic - The nature of the Gods
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    The nature of the Gods
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:54 am  
    The nature of the Gods

    What is the nature of the Gods?
    Where they come from?
    We know that some of them once were mortal... but the others?

    I tried to answer these questions for my campaign...

    These beings we call "Gods" are very powerfull creature coming from another world/planet/plane, and they are not unique in the multiverse.

    There are different material planes governed by other pantheons, by other Gods, coming from the same world Beory, Rao & co. come.

    These beings discovered eons ago incredible powers, but their world collpased 'cos couldn't stand this enormous energy.

    Since that cataclysm these "Gods" travelled through the Multiverse in groups/clans/families and civilized (or created) new worlds, in which they became very Gods...

    but...

    they were so selfconfident with their powers that they forgot the name of the being they did call "God"...

    This creature, this World Master was alone in time and space, and so created the Multiverse, leaving his memories to his sons the Gods... but the effort was so strong that he fell asleep fo eons and eons...

    but he could awake soon...

    His name is UR...

    ...

    what do you think?
    (It's just a beginning, an Idea...)
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:32 pm  

    Interesting. A good back ground for an Epic campaign.

    What does the awakening of UR imply? Is it some sought of Tharizdun/Cthulu style elder god who's awakening spells doom for the mulitiverse? Or maybe just a shake up for these pretenders, a re-ordering of the cosmos with worlds colliding. Or maybe a more benign or neutral creator who will look on its children with affection? Although I fail to see where the dramatic tension comes from in that last possibility.

    For myself, and this says a lot more about me than anything, I see the Gods as culturally biased interpretations of universal ideas. I don't even necessarily need them to be real in my campaigns (usually they are but since my games are always run at a much lower power level it never really comes up.) This means that in reality my universe has a lot fewer gods running about than might be thought from looking at a complete list of Oerth deities. I think along the lines of 'Why the hell does the universe need 2 death gods?' Different cultures might need 2 versions of the same concept but that's just interpretation.

    For instance: anyone else noticed the similarities between Odin and Gruumsh? One eyed, big spear of Doom, God of warlords/kings, into human sacrifice and the Darwinian selection of the best warriors. I consider them to be two different interpretations of the same god. Their worshippers would not see it that way of course. (and yes, I have Odin and the other Norse gods in my campaign. Very non-canon.) Someone on these boards (sorry forget who and where but it was only a few weeks ago) wrote up their idea of Hextor and Heironeous being the same god, just with a severe personality disorder. Very cool and loads of potential for schism and heresy.

    Of course none of this gets down to answering your question Eldiel. 'What is the nature of Gods.' A friend of mine basically considers them to be NPC's with loads and loads of XP. Essentially they are powerful alien beings and anyone can achieve powers like their's with enough time and effort. A kinda Chariots of the Gods take on things. (I recommend Dan Simmons' 'Illium' for an excellent description of these sorts of Gods.)

    I prefer to think of them as the inevitable result of the existence of the universe. Natural, spontaneously arising forces like gravity and time/space. But they are without clear personality or definition until their worshippers give it to them. (Man makes gods in His own image.) Hence the need for worshippers. And this is perhaps what leads to gods with split personalities.

    Don't know if any of this helps but it was such a an interesting topic heading that I had to get my two cents in. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:33 pm  
    Generations of gods

    Hi all,

    If the Greytalk Archives were still up, you could read an old timelne I once did asserting that the gods are just one generation of a race fantastically old, with Istus and Tharizdun being the oldest of them. The last generation of gods, whom Dunsany dubbed the gods of Pegana (perhaps a name for the Flanaess in millenia past?), have long since died out or been killed off by their children.

    ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

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    GreySage

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:19 pm  
    Re: Generations of gods

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    The last generation of gods, whom Dunsany dubbed the gods of Pegana (perhaps a name for the Flanaess in millenia past?), have long since died out or been killed off by their children.


    Apparently, that entire book is on Wikisource. It's interesting stuff.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:47 am  

    Well

    the wake of UR will be a turning point in gods history

    norse gods could call it RAGNAROK...

    perhaps they don't know what's going to happen in such a case...

    if gods are these alien beings maybe they put an end to the level progression of mortal beings, preventig them from becoming epic... in order to mantein their supremacy...

    and UR could see it like a treason, a hybris action... so he could create a goddes (like the greek hybris) to subvert the actual cosmos...

    maybe Hybris will choose the PCs like agents in this campaign "Against the Gods"....

    that's my EPIC (AND OVER) CAMPAIGN IDEA...

    what do you think?

    cool.... ah?
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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:43 am  

    We know the Greyhawk gods place limits on mortals - it's why smoke powder only works for Murlynd and his followers. Clearly the Gods fear it! Your epic pcs just have to invent automatic weapons and they can wipe out the enitre pantheon Laughing
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:21 am  

    I see UR as a future (but distant) guide for my PCs through epic and divine powers... then my PC should decide: help UR against the Gods... or help the Gods against UR...
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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:57 am  
    Er...

    Hi again,

    "Eldiel" wrote:
    >I see UR as a future (but distant) guide for my PCs through epic and divine powers... <[snipped]

    Just to warn you, if I used an NPC named Ur in my campaign, I could probably expect an exchange like the following...

    player: Who does this cleric worship?
    DM: Ur.
    Player: What, you're not sure?
    DM: I am sure. I'm telling you he worships Ur.
    Player: If you need some more time to think about it, go ahead, but you should have this kind of material planned in advance.
    DM: I did! The god's name is UR!
    Player: Are you hesitating for another reason? Is it Vecna? Tharizdun?
    DM: Err...
    Player: His name is Err?
    DM: Argh!

    ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

    100th post! *doing the Yak-Man dance*
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:46 pm  

    URK!

    you're right!

    Shocked

    anyway I don't think UR needs (or wants) clerics...

    Laughing
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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:35 pm  

    I prefer the Terry Pratchett approach - divinity is dependent upon worship, or at least belief. Deific beings exist in a potential state until someone defines them with a name and belief, at which point they become something more than a potential.

    The power of a god is directly proportional to the volume and intensity of belief flowing towards him (or her). The more belief and worship directed at a god, the more powerful he becomes. Note that negative belief (fear, hatred, loathing, etc) is nearly as powerful as positive belief (love, respect, worship, etc). When a god's worshippers move on or die off, the god does not "die", but returns eventually towards the potential state. Hopefully to be rediscovered.

    This is also why gods change over time. As the nature of the worship changes, so does the nature of the deity. Wee Jas was once considered evil, as she was worshipped by an evil race. Her more-universal congregation has moved her to a more neutral (but still lawful) alignment. I should note that it's not the alignment of the worshippers, but their expectation of the deity that causes this. Wee Jas has always been lawful, because that's what everyone (even her enemies) expect of her.

    The question of evil deities has been raised before - are there enough consciously evil people to justify the plethora of evil deities? Again, an evil deity will gain as much from the fears of a good mortal as he will from the prayers of an evil one.

    Divine power is channeled back into the clerics of the world, just as a corporation puts its revenues into new facilities, advertising, etc. Looked at from the right point of view, it's all a shell game, but no mortal has ever acheived that point of view, and the deities aren't talking.

    Finally, the gods are kept from this world because they are not truly of this world. The exceptions are those who once were of this world (St. Cuthbert, Iuz, Vecna, etc). The others may have aspects and avatars roaming around the Prime Material, but the god himself cannot come here because his nature is not physical.

    The sole exception is my favorite baddie - Tharizdun. He is not like the other deities; he is the only one who does not require worship, or even belief, although he can still feed off these things. The mortal fear that his mere presence struck in the deities was enough to turn them against him, let alone his evil and entropic ways. And there's his secret - Entropy. Tharizdun is the manifestation of the breakdown of all things, an inevitable aspect of the universe. The other gods struck against him, and locked him at the center of the world (note I did not necessarily say Oerth). Yet they could not rid existence of entropy, and still he remains, the future master of all.

    So yes, when he is freed, the world will be destroyed.

    Telas
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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:02 pm  

    I really like this approach Telas Wink

    It elegantly explains the ebb and flow of the gods' within GH.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:38 pm  

    Telas wrote:
    This is also why gods change over time. As the nature of the worship changes, so does the nature of the deity. Wee Jas was once considered evil, as she was worshipped by an evil race. Her more-universal congregation has moved her to a more neutral (but still lawful) alignment. I should note that it's not the alignment of the worshippers, but their expectation of the deity that causes this. Wee Jas has always been lawful, because that's what everyone (even her enemies) expect of her.


    I like this Telas, but have to play devil's advocate for a minute as regards the above paragraph. If the nature of the deity changes as the nature of worship changes, what happens if you have two groups worshipping the same deity in very different ways? A case in point might be the Pholtans of the Pale vs. the Pholtans of the Grand Theocracy of Dimre.
    GreySage

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:16 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    If the nature of the deity changes as the nature of worship changes, what happens if you have two groups worshipping the same deity in very different ways? A case in point might be the Pholtans of the Pale vs. the Pholtans of the Grand Theocracy of Dimre.


    I think gods can have multiple, contradictory aspects simultaneously. And both aspects are equally real and equally sentient. And they're the same entity, with the same realm and the same servants. They don't fight, either - they're not multiple personality disorder, they're a single, complex, paradoxical divinity, operating in dimensions unknowable to mortal perception. Mortals can glimpse but one aspect at a time, like the blind men and the elephant, or like facets of a precious gem.

    And yet it is mortals who create them.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:23 pm  

    Telas' approach is good, and in some aspect realistic, but I wanted to give the gods a kind of NPC aspect, so that my PC would be able to relate with them and to follow their steps...

    My point of view considers the gods like very powerfull alien beings that struggle one against the other to gain respect and power over the different material planes of the multiverse, and sometimes they try to conquer other material planes causing actual pantheons' war...

    but why?

    perhaps becuse (yes - that's Telas) faith is the prime source of energy for this beings...
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    Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:10 am  
    A World With One Creator Deity

    My campaign world has an over-deity who created the world, along with two races of divine beings, a geater and a lesser. The few members of the greater divine race have divine ranks in excess of 20. Members of the lesser divine race have no more than 20 ranks. The two divine races went down into the world to rule it according to the will of the creator. Two of the greater race, however, turned evil and fought the others.

    After the other greater divine beings defeated the two evil ones, they disappeared from the world for a couple of millenia. During their disappearance many members of the lesser divine race set themselves up as "gods," worshipped mostly by the shorter-lived races who don't recall the greater divine race and no longer know the truth about the creator. Each ethnic group of humans ended up worshipping its own set (pantheon) of lesser divine beings, thus my world has the Norse, Greek, Babylonian and other real-world patheons (known by different names). There are a few mortals (not any PCs though) who have managed to get elevated to the status of minor deities.

    So I really enjoy your idea for a greater creator god and a bunch of lesser gods running around in the world, where high-level PCs might even aspire to minor godhood themselves. Smile
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    Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:18 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    If the nature of the deity changes as the nature of worship changes, what happens if you have two groups worshipping the same deity in very different ways?


    I think gods can have multiple, contradictory aspects simultaneously.


    Bingo.

    Without applying any other aspects of my 'theory of divinity' to the real world, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God, the God of Abraham. They differ on the interpretation of prophets and saviors, and what God expects of Man. (I'm speaking in very, very broad terms here; we don't want to get into a discussion of real world religion.)

    The differing versions of the gods don't make war upon themselves, but the differing followers sure as hell do. Switching back to GH terms, I'm sure the gods appreciate all the attention, and become more like the "winning side".

    Telas
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    Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:11 am  

    Quote:
    Each ethnic group of humans ended up worshipping its own set (pantheon) of lesser divine beings, thus my world has the Norse, Greek, Babylonian and other real-world patheons (known by different names).


    My idea is a bit different... I expect my players to be able to gain divine ranks... and then they will discover other Material Planes in which those other pantheons you named (and many others) are known... (I will use this sourcebook: Legends and Lore... it is old, but it give more pantheons than Gods and Demigods...) and maybe fight against the most important heroes, the champions of those pantheons...

    Quote:
    Switching back to GH terms, I'm sure the gods appreciate all the attention, and become more like the "winning side".


    this is the base conception I adopted in these terms:

    Quote:
    My point of view considers the gods like very powerfull alien beings that struggle one against the other to gain respect and power over the different material planes of the multiverse, and sometimes they try to conquer other material planes causing actual pantheons' war...

    but why?

    perhaps becuse (yes - that's Telas) faith is the prime source of energy for this beings...


    they are politicians... OH MY GOD Laughing
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    Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:22 am  

    [quote="Eldiel"]
    Quote:

    they are politicians... OH MY GOD Laughing


    (butthead)

    "Huh-huh. You worship... politicians. Huh. Huh-huh..."

    (/butthead)

    Wink

    Telas
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    Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:31 pm  

    Eldiel wrote:
    Quote:
    Each ethnic group of humans ended up worshipping its own set (pantheon) of lesser divine beings, thus my world has the Norse, Greek, Babylonian and other real-world patheons (known by different names).


    My idea is a bit different... I expect my players to be able to gain divine ranks... and then they will discover other Material Planes in which those other pantheons you named (and many others) are known... (I will use this sourcebook: Legends and Lore... it is old, but it give more pantheons than Gods and Demigods...) and maybe fight against the most important heroes, the champions of those pantheons...


    That's why I mentioned that mortals have become divine in my world. I've been running my campaign world since 1978, and back in 1st Ed I did have one PC who was working on godhood. Basically I'd determined that if someone got enough worshippers he could become a demigod and so forth.

    Will these gods in other worlds have as much power as the creator god? Will your creator god have created their worlds too?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:19 am  

    My creator god UR is the prime creator of the multiverse... but none knows his final goal...

    anyway these gods, as I said before were created by UR, and their power is low... to even compare with Ur's....

    UR IS the Multiverse... and created himself as an act of pure Will...
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    Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:32 pm  

    Eldiel wrote:
    My creator god UR is the prime creator of the multiverse... but none knows his final goal...

    anyway these gods, as I said before were created by UR, and their power is low... to even compare with Ur's....

    UR IS the Multiverse... and created himself as an act of pure Will...


    Do you know Ur's final goal, or is that something you've left open deliberately? Happy
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:41 am  

    Teals I like that Terry Pratchett idea as well. I also like the ideas of ancient Greece and also as shown in Neil Gaiman's Sandman graphic novels that a god's power waxes and wanes with the devotions of their followers. If a god loses followers they start to loose their power... in Greece this was more directly linked to receiving sacrifices and I think one of the comic plays was all about diminishing the god's power by blocking the smoke of the burnt sacrifices from them...erg my memory fails me...The Clouds? The Birds...something like that.

    In the last Sandman graphic novel they show a short scene with Bast the Egyptian cat goddess....she is now just old and shrivelled and not her once powerful self in the hey days of Egypt but they show her drawing on the reverence of a child for his cat at a cat show and using that respect to make herself young and storng again - if just for a short while. I really like this idea that as a god looses followers they become weak...not necessarily dead they just perhaps fall into a slumber...isn't their somethign mentioned about the plane of Limbo where sleeping gods drift by?

    As for the origins of gods IMC I take the approach that many of more recent human and even non-human (such as SUrtr or Yeenoghu) pantheons were once celestials, fey, elementals, devils, demons or other such entities. The ancient races in more primitive times perhaps would be in awe of their powers and start to offer them worship and tribute and over the centuries these powers became gods.

    I haven't detailed all of the gods origins but have them loosely in mind...Ulaa was once an earth elemental who ancient dwarves would consult and who Ulaa would protect in return for certain favours. Jormay was perhaps a fire elemental, Roa a celestial, Ehlonna and the olven pantheon may well have been fey, Myrhiss and Geshtai nymphs perhaps, Ehlonna a dryad? Syrul wa sonce perhaps a night hag and Lolth a demon.

    This link between worhsippers and power is partly why an agreement to not interfere directly ont he material plane was made as the gods have a vested interest in recruiting as many folllowers as possible (especially the lesser and intermediate gods) and without some kind of accord there would be too much open conflict.

    some deities obviously have more complicated origins.
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    Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:32 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    In the last Sandman graphic novel they show a short scene with Bast the Egyptian cat goddess....she is now just old and shrivelled and not her once powerful self in the hey days of Egypt but they show her drawing on the reverence of a child for his cat at a cat show and using that respect to make herself young and storng again - if just for a short while. I really like this idea that as a god looses followers they become weak...not necessarily dead they just perhaps fall into a slumber...isn't their somethign mentioned about the plane of Limbo where sleeping gods drift by?


    I think it's the Astral Plane you're thinking of. Manual of the Planes has a section called Dead Deities on pages 51-52 that discusses dead or forgotten gods floating in the Astral Plane.

    Wolfling wrote:
    As for the origins of gods IMC I take the approach that many of more recent human and even non-human (such as SUrtr or Yeenoghu) pantheons were once celestials, fey, elementals, devils, demons or other such entities. The ancient races in more primitive times perhaps would be in awe of their powers and start to offer them worship and tribute and over the centuries these powers became gods.

    I haven't detailed all of the gods origins but have them loosely in mind...Ulaa was once an earth elemental who ancient dwarves would consult and who Ulaa would protect in return for certain favours. Jormay was perhaps a fire elemental, Roa a celestial, Ehlonna and the olven pantheon may well have been fey, Myrhiss and Geshtai nymphs perhaps, Ehlonna a dryad? Syrul wa sonce perhaps a night hag and Lolth a demon.

    This link between worhsippers and power is partly why an agreement to not interfere directly ont he material plane was made as the gods have a vested interest in recruiting as many folllowers as possible (especially the lesser and intermediate gods) and without some kind of accord there would be too much open conflict.

    some deities obviously have more complicated origins.


    In my campaign many of the powerful, non-divine races like devils, demons, celestials and even dragons actually descend from the lesser of the two divine races, so my campaign world includes the concepts of beings becoming more or less powerful, with perhaps a less clear line between divine and non-divine than the 3rd Ed Deities and Demigods suggests. If you look at the abominations in Epic Level Handbook you see that even though they have no divine ranks, they have most if not all of the abilities of deities with a divine rank of 0, so despite the clear line of Deities and Demigods, 3rd Ed overall has less distinction between divine and non-divine than we might at first think.
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    Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:58 am  

    Quote:
    Do you know Ur's final goal, or is that something you've left open deliberately?


    I don't know UR's goal... only UR knows it... (I left it open... Happy )

    Quote:
    I think it's the Astral Plane you're thinking of. Manual of the Planes has a section called Dead Deities on pages 51-52 that discusses dead or forgotten gods floating in the Astral Plane.


    the Astral Plane is a kind of cemetery for dead deities... but are these gods dead? I think they are only sleeping... perhaps their followers' number decreased... or they've been defeated... but who can kill a God?
    actually kill I mean...
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    Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:46 am  

    Eldiel wrote:
    Quote:
    Do you know Ur's final goal, or is that something you've left open deliberately?


    I don't know UR's goal... only UR knows it... (I left it open... Happy )

    Quote:
    I think it's the Astral Plane you're thinking of. Manual of the Planes has a section called Dead Deities on pages 51-52 that discusses dead or forgotten gods floating in the Astral Plane.


    the Astral Plane is a kind of cemetery for dead deities... but are these gods dead? I think they are only sleeping... perhaps their followers' number decreased... or they've been defeated... but who can kill a God?
    actually kill I mean...


    Yes, oftentimes leaving it open can be more fun than deciding it for yourself. If even you don't know, you can avoid accidentally telegraphing it to the players. Wink

    Whether or not the dead gods in the Astral Plane are really dead or just dormant lies within your discretion as DM. I would personally allow someone who started as a mortal to die for real even if he or she attains divine status. Creatures divine from the start, however, I'm more inclined to have remain in at least some form even after being "killed." In fact I have a high-level epic adventure planned that's based in part around the continued existence of fragments of four dead members of the greater divine race in my campaign world. Happy
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    Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:58 am  

    Quote:
    I would personally allow someone who started as a mortal to die for real even if he or she attains divine status. Creatures divine from the start, however, I'm more inclined to have remain in at least some form even after being "killed."


    but the basement of my campaign is that every god (apart from UR) was mortal in the beginning... so the question lies unresolved... Happy

    in fact UR have not to die... the Gods themselves know that UR's death would destroy everything... cos UR IS the Multiverse... they will try to seal him... (and they're gonna crawl...)
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    Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:11 am  

    Wolfling wrote:

    In the last Sandman graphic novel they show a short scene with Bast the Egyptian cat goddess....she is now just old and shrivelled and not her once powerful self


    She's basically a cat lady? It's true, irony is a powerful force... Laughing

    Wolfling wrote:

    As for the origins of gods IMC I take the approach that many of more recent human and even non-human (such as Surtr or Yeenoghu) pantheons were once celestials, fey, elementals, devils, demons or other such entities. The ancient races in more primitive times perhaps would be in awe of their powers and start to offer them worship and tribute and over the centuries these powers became gods.


    Excellent idea; I think Gaiman used this approach in American Gods. I was thinking that a god was born from the shape of his followers' desires, but this works too. Maybe a combination of the two - some originate as an Outsider, others are born from the stuff of dreams and desires. Either way, they're shaped (to some extent) by the perceptions and desires of their followers and believers.

    Telas
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