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    Canonfire :: View topic - Coin denominations, precious metals and weight?
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    Coin denominations, precious metals and weight?
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:26 am  
    Coin denominations, precious metals and weight?

    I'm wondering-have any DMs ever given out coins that are worth five or ten silver, gold, or copper pieces, instead of just a one-coin-equals-one-unit-of-currency bit as most DMs seem to assume? In looking over the 1E expenses and treasure available, where carrying around 1,000 copper pieces is equal to 100 pounds, which is a lot for any character, it seems that in many cases a lot of treasure has to be left behind because players can't carry it all, which to me seems rather unfair when you consider that a fifth-level character automatically spends 500 gold pieces a month, not counting taxes, expenses for henchmen, tithes to religious organizations, and whatever else you can think of.

    As such, I wonder how often governments maximize the metal resources available to them by minting coins that might be worth five, ten, twenty or even fifty gold, silver or copper pieces, just as examples. Could there be a gold coin worth five gold ivids in the Great Kingdom, for instance? How about a silver coin worth ten silver pieces in the Duchy of Tenh? In such cases, things like exchange rates and the worth of the money are influenced as much by the perceived value of the coin based on the perception of its government by other countries.

    I think it would be ridiculous to imagine that every single coin a country or other power (including orcs, dwarves, giants and other non-human races, all of whom can easily mint their own coins) is worth only a single unit of currency. I doubt such things exist in our real world-why should they in a fantasy world?

    From a metagame point of view it allows DMs to better control how much loot their players get their hands on-those coins altoghether weight about thirty pounds, although the character is carrying roughly about 37,000 silver pieces on him, when you consider just how much each individual coin is worth-some of them are worth ten silver pieces, others worth five, and others worth only one.

    From an in-world point of view, it also allows governments to maximize their supplies of precious metals by minting some coins that are worth more than others-the biggest ones end up in the hands of the wealthiest citizens, or are used by the government to pay its own debts and expenses, while the lower-value coins are used to pay soldiers, bureaucrats and other state agents, who then put that money into the economy where it's used by poorer folk for the average expenses they incur-buying milk and bread costs a few silver coins, and a character obviously won't need a silver coin worth 100 silver pieces to buy a week's worth of groceries, but it could come in handy to pay off the tax-man.

    I'm sure there are numismatists out there that can better explain how governments have updated their currencies to match the times, and how they might seek to gain best use of the precious metals available at their disposal. And of course, DMs can freely weigh in on the various denominations of coins they use to ensure how much treasure players get their hands on.

    Any thoughts?
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    Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:40 am  

    The problem with your proposal is that D&D currency runs on an economy that is precious metals based, unlike our modern currency which is tied to the percieved production capacity of the issuing party.

    The short form is yes, there are 5gp, 10gp and higher denomination coins. However, these coins also contain commensurately larger quantities of the precious metal.

    Why? The coin has value because of its precious metal content. Confidence in the issuer has no bearing, which is why Tenha gp has a constant value, theoretically, whather presented i the Pale, Nyrond or the Yeomanry. It consists of so many ounces of gold, as does every other gold piece, ignoring for simplicity the possibility of shaved coins or that different countries have different standards as to the exact gold contnent of their coins.

    Basically, as a limited resource economy the actual amount of the limited resource, gold and other precious metals in this case, constitutes value. The value of a gp is its gold content so a 5gp coin must weigh 5x what a 1 gp coin does to have 5x its value, or at least have 5x the gold content. And thus, we have the AD&D encumbrance rules of 10gp equals the equivalent encumbrance of 1 lb of dead weight.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:59 am  

    Also note that the economic system of the D&D is deliberately simplfied to the point of not even being worthy of being called an economic system. It is little more than a method of keeping score of your loot, and any resemblance to real economic systems is purely incidental.
    If you want smaller items worth more, have the PCs wander around with gems or jewelry for higher value "coins."
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:59 pm  

    Quote:
    Could there be a gold coin worth five gold ivids in the Great Kingdom, for instance? How about a silver coin worth ten silver pieces in the Duchy of Tenh?
    yeah, they are called platinum and gold pieces respectively :o)
    But yes, I know what you are talking about... how the weight to value makes copper and silver practically worthless at higher levels. Though over the years and editions the coins have been getting lighter (10/lb, 20/lb and now 50/lb). Gems and jewellery make lighter subsitutes, but then value is only there if you can find someone who wants to buy back from you (and give you a similiar price, which rarely happens in my campaign). In my campaign paper money exists in the form of bank notes issued by the church (bank) of Zilchus. Which makes for an easy, light, secure way to carry a fortune around (for the appropriate fee of course). In my campaign these are magically constructed making them impossible to conterfiet, plus for an extra fee, they can have conditions placed on them, such as only being able to be cashed in person by a particular individual (making them useless if stolen) or organization. The notes may also be created to look like something else (a love letter, ring, etc) to conceal their true nature (of course also at a cost). Of course these notes arent very good for using as bribes or payment to people/creatures not willing or able to walk into the nearest Zilchus money changer....
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    Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:46 pm  

    The scale claiming that 1000 cp is 100# is a joke, pure and simple. Medieval coins (which were all silver until the late 15th century, when the Italian merchants needed gold coins to pay for their middle eastern trade), were minted with anywhere from 100 to 400 coins to the pound of silver. The english sterling penny, which was one of the most stable currencies, was minted at 240p to the pound.

    Coins of different sizes and values likely exist, but as mentioned above its the metal content that determines the value, period. The medieval french has two royal mints. One in Paris and one in Tours. For some bizarre reason, they made deniers with different weights. So a denier parisis was worth slightly more than a denier tournois. And both were worth less than a sterling penny, which circulated widely in English owned Gascony.

    Later on (end of the 14th century, IIRC), the french added a Gros Denier, which was worth 4 regular deniers I believe. Eventually, they added a gold coin also (the sou?).

    The English, on the other hand, pretty much stuck with the penny (petty expenses were paid for by cutting the coin into fourths (farthings) and halves (ha'pennies), literally. Large payments were made in gold and silver bars, either marks (2/3rd of a pound) or pounds.

    As an interesting aside, one way around the Catholic Church's ban on the charging of interest (usury) was to make loans in one silver coin and get payment back in a larger one. For example, loaning someone 100 deniers tournois and getting repaid with 100 sterling pennies. Its 100 silver for 100 silver, your excellency....
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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:17 am  

    One problem would be that currency would have little value outside of the nation where it was created. The value of the coins is largely due to their rarity and value as minerals.

    You could however is cold iron, mithral and adamantine for large purchases. Using these minerals would be extremely rare.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:35 am  

    In and old campaign of mine I swaitched everything to a Silver Standard. With Silver being the most common coin. This seemed to put the money into a more belivable ratio for me. It also allowed me to increse prices a bit on things to keep eveyone from going wild on purchases and also put the lower value coins into a much better perspective. However even before that Copper was still used and would still wind up in someone's hoard because it was the most common currency among the avergae man. The poor especially. if bread cost more than a few coppers in your world then you must be running a campaign that's based off of Spain in the 1600s where inflation was destroying the country. Also most tavern drinks shouldn't cost more than few coppers either. And lets be fair, the avearge adventurer spends more time in bars than most folks of a game world. I personally like the fact that I don't have to worry about coins having diffrent values from one place to the next as that is less bookepping I have to do. Although it is a really good party annoyance and keeps people from having the clear the dungeoun of anything valuable habit. I alsways try to figure out how much treasure is in a dungeon so that I can make sure weather the party can carry it all out or not. Otherwise they either leave it there or come back later. It also makes portable holes and bags of holding some of the best magic items to have.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:07 pm  

    Interesting responses. As should be clear, I'm not a numismatist. I had originally thought that there would be issues with currency values varying from one country to another based on how the exchange rate varies in Greyhawk from as low as 5% from the Duchy of Urnst to 25% for distant countries like Ratik or the Lordship of the Isles. That made me wonder whether there was some intrinsic value to the coins beyond their value as precious metal, like there is with our currencies in the real world.

    I also notted how moneychangers were available to adventurers and other travelers to trade some of their money in for the accepted currency-Furyondian merchants would not simply accept Greyhawk coins at face value. Would the same thing happen in real life economies based on coinage? Would Persian or Chinese coins be accepted at face value by Arabian or Ottoman merchants, or would Italian bankers and merchants freely accept coins from Sweden or Scotland, without any sort of exchange rate? Would governments freely allow foreign currency to circulate around in their economies?

    I don't know, so that's why I'm asking.
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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:26 pm  

    For comparison, (applies to the other thread, too) looking at the prices it seems that $1~1sp. With AD&D coin conversion, that puts a longsword at about $300, a bastard sword at $400 and a two-hander at $500. Except for the greatswords, this is about what you'll pay Museum Replicas for usable weapons.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:53 pm  

    The basic problem with having coins whose value is more than the metal in them is one of confidence. Who trusts the coin issuer enough to take the coin at its face value, not money value?

    In RL middle ages, very few people did. Kings who tried to issue coins "worth" more than their metal content very quickly found that the coins had less value in circulation than "real" coins.

    If people *do* have enough confidence to accept coin of symbolic value, that is an immediate invitation to counterfeiters. If the authorities have some effective way of stopping counterfeiting, perhaps such a system would work. If counterfeiting is rampant, than trust erodes to the point that the coins are worth only their metal value.

    Before paper economies evolved, large sums of money could be carried and exchanged using "letters of credit". An international organization with deep pockets (Church of Zilchus, wealthy merchant house, etc.) will give you a letter "worth" a certain amount, redeemable at one of their branches somewhere else. Probably for a fee, which would include the price of using magic to assure the authenticity of the letter.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:05 pm  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    I also notted how moneychangers were available to adventurers and other travelers to trade some of their money in for the accepted currency-Furyondian merchants would not simply accept Greyhawk coins at face value. Would the same thing happen in real life economies based on coinage?.


    Generally, no. That is a very modern concept that only really got going in the last Renaissance when countries started contemplating balance of trade issues, and worrying about whether they were net importers or exporters, and thus whether they had enough bullion circulating in their country to be considered "rich."
    Further, it also had a strong element relating to the cost of minting coins versus the raw value of the bullion. When minting coins became a significant expense, the government needed to make sure people didn't just melt down coins into ingots, sell them for a bit over the value to the government (who needed to pay the premium so they'd have the bullion to make coins), then wait for the government to reissue them to do it again.
    Given the raw amounts of coin floating about most campaigns, both of those issues should be generally irrelevant.
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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:52 pm  

    The only significant exchange rate issues were 1) the relative value of the coin itself and 2) local politics.

    As mentioned, real world coins varied quite a bit in size and metal content. European pennies varied from 100 to 400 or so coins per pound of silver. And minting was not always a royal perogative. In England, only the king could mint coins and they were generally very very strict about standards. But in much of Europe, there were all manner of local lordships with mints, at least until the kings got the power to get rid of them. Even where the king did have all or most of the minting authority, their various mints didn't necessarily match in value (the French example above). Moneychangers didn't evaluate coins based on origin (generally speaking), they evaluated them based on how much silver they contained. Thus, it was often the case that moneychangers were silversmiths. They would buy the coin from travellers at a discount and melt it down for use or resale to the mint. The customers went along with this because it made life easier, as the locals in Flen wouldn't know how valuable the Ulek Silvermoon coin (sp) was and thus would be leery of accepting it.

    The other exchange rate issue was purely political. The local lord might ban some or all foreign currencies for various reasons. In some cases, it was an influence grab (The French tried to combat english influence in Provence and Languedoc by banning the sterling penny, which was widely respected and available due to english control of Gascony and Aquitaine, for instance) or because the lord wanted to fleece travellers by forcing them to exchange coinage for the local currency at a loss. The former generally didn't work and the latter usually resulted in a loss of trade and travel custom, as the area would be avoided.

    Btw, medieval coins would tend to wear down since silver is a soft metal. Further, some folks would try to shave the edges of coins and keep that bit of silver while using the rest of the coin for full value. (This was eventually combated by the practice of 'rolling'. That's what creates the edges on modern coins. They make it obvious if a coin has been shaved). Mints would periodically issue new currencies and void the old ones, forcing folks to sell their old coins back to the state. This invariably caused folks to lose money, as some portion of their coins were worn, shaved, or whatever and thus the silver weight would be less than it was 'officially'. This practice was universally hated.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:29 pm  

    In the gazateers; the money exchange into local coinage usually is given 3%-15%.

    In real world the templars set up an international defacto bank system with letters of credit and protection, although forbidden as a christian religious order to charde usury (interest), a standard 10-20% "donation" of the transaction was common. However given the various magical means to transport goods or orders over distances banking could be fairly save for the extermely wealthy.

    It always seemed wrong to me for piles of coins and jewels to simply be lying around lairs, orcs or evil wizards have expenses too, swords and components aren't cheap, not to mention wages. Just like the terriorists and drug dealers today, instead of keeping it in a room waiting for "heroes" to steal, why not use it to better their weapons or influence.

    Typically the average humanoid tribe lair conservatively has (500 gp) and yet the warriors have leather armour and short sword and clubs living in squallor. Why wouldn't the tribe find a dishonest merchant and purchase better arms or even luxury goods for the chief, similar to the black market trade with the american natives.

    Imagine the heroes suprise when there is no treasue because the chief upgraded his weapons recently or the evil cleric just funded some local business concerns in the area which the local merchants depend on, or better yet if the "bank clergy" is neutral perhaps they are like the swiss and don't question how an "evil" wizard acquired his funds, when asked he informs the heroes his money is save in his acount, he isn't stupid to leave it lying around where "thieves" can steal it.
    CF Admin

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    Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:51 am  
    Re: Coin denominations, precious metals and weight?

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    I'm wondering-have any DMs ever given out coins that are worth five or ten silver, gold, or copper pieces, instead of just a one-coin-equals-one-unit-of-currency bit as most DMs seem to assume? [snip]

    As such, I wonder how often governments maximize the metal resources available to them by minting coins that might be worth five, ten, twenty or even fifty gold, silver or copper pieces, just as examples. Could there be a gold coin worth five gold ivids in the Great Kingdom, for instance? How about a silver coin worth ten silver pieces in the Duchy of Tenh?


    Good thoughts CSL! I think the Lankhmar coinage system is what first got me thinking along those lines (diamonds in golden smerduk IIRC?), reinforced further by EGG's coins from Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil, which are detailed on Christopher Siren's page @ http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmisc.html#currency

    I used a modified and expanded form of Gygax's coinage in my games, with the following coin types:


    • Iron Drab = 1/20,000 gp
    • Bronze Tic = 1/4000 gp
    • Steel Oren = 1/200 gp
    • Copper Common = 1/20 gp
    • Silver Noble = 1/2 gp
    • Brass Bit = 1 gp
    • Electrum Obel = 3gp
    • Gold Orb = 9 gp
    • Platinum Zee = 45 gp
    • Mithral Mark = 90 gp
    • Adamantite Royal = 450 gp


    The coins also varied in weight (1/200gp weight up to 1/10 gp weight), and size/shape (US dime-sized to triangles, octagons, etc.).

    However, I never really delved into different national currencies much: some nations used the standard D&D monetary conversion rates, while others used Greyhawk's (above), and others used their own (in particular demi-human societies, some of which minted coins/bars/etc. [a la the trader bars from FR or the various drowic bars in D1-3]). Often I would simply charge a 5-20% conversion fee against PCs wanting to change their coins, and leave it at that.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:17 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The only significant exchange rate issues were 1) the relative value of the coin itself and 2) local politics.

    As mentioned, real world coins varied quite a bit in size and metal content. European pennies varied from 100 to 400 or so coins per pound of silver. And minting was not always a royal perogative. In England, only the king could mint coins and they were generally very very strict about standards. But in much of Europe, there were all manner of local lordships with mints, at least until the kings got the power to get rid of them. Even where the king did have all or most of the minting authority, their various mints didn't necessarily match in value (the French example above). Moneychangers didn't evaluate coins based on origin (generally speaking), they evaluated them based on how much silver they contained. Thus, it was often the case that moneychangers were silversmiths. They would buy the coin from travellers at a discount and melt it down for use or resale to the mint. The customers went along with this because it made life easier, as the locals in Flen wouldn't know how valuable the Ulek Silvermoon coin (sp) was and thus would be leery of accepting it.

    The other exchange rate issue was purely political. The local lord might ban some or all foreign currencies for various reasons. In some cases, it was an influence grab (The French tried to combat english influence in Provence and Languedoc by banning the sterling penny, which was widely respected and available due to english control of Gascony and Aquitaine, for instance) or because the lord wanted to fleece travellers by forcing them to exchange coinage for the local currency at a loss. The former generally didn't work and the latter usually resulted in a loss of trade and travel custom, as the area would be avoided.

    Btw, medieval coins would tend to wear down since silver is a soft metal. Further, some folks would try to shave the edges of coins and keep that bit of silver while using the rest of the coin for full value. (This was eventually combated by the practice of 'rolling'. That's what creates the edges on modern coins. They make it obvious if a coin has been shaved). Mints would periodically issue new currencies and void the old ones, forcing folks to sell their old coins back to the state. This invariably caused folks to lose money, as some portion of their coins were worn, shaved, or whatever and thus the silver weight would be less than it was 'officially'. This practice was universally hated.


    So does that mean that there isn't even much point in different states minting their own currencies? Would human countries, in their trade agreements with dwarf and gnome kingdoms, share a common currency, since the demihumans are better at it and it saves the kingdom the expense of setting up its own mint and keeping track of the coins?

    The 2E DMG gave the example of an English trading captain whose wealth is shown in a variety of coins and currencies, from the pounds his employers pay him to hacksilver bracelets to German marks to Italian florins. What was the point of all these states minting their own coins when the only inherent value came from the precious metal content, as opposed to any value of whose face was on the coin?
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:29 pm  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    So does that mean that there isn't even much point in different states minting their own currencies?


    No, it means there isn't much point to devoting dozens of hours to making pages of rules, and then spending more hours tracking where every coin the PCs find and spend comes from. (Remember, most hordes should contain coins from several lands.)

    Quote:
    What was the point of all these states minting their own coins when the only inherent value came from the precious metal content, as opposed to any value of whose face was on the coin?


    Prestige.
    Any one who can mint coins, particularly with his face on them, is someone of relevance. One of the first things any newly crowned ruler would do is issue a new release of coins with his head on them so everybody would know who the new king is. If the coins were also of exceptionally purity, it "proved" how rich he was as well.

    And in a sense, that's the only reason to track it beyond a simple, universal, decimal scorekeeping system in a game - to "prove" you can do all the research, design, and bookkeeping needed to create a historically "accurate" system of coinage.
    Of course, that still doesn't give you a full blown economic model . . .
    Laughing
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    Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:13 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    In the gazateers; the money exchange into local coinage usually is given 3%-15%.

    It always seemed wrong to me for piles of coins and jewels to simply be lying around lairs, orcs or evil wizards have expenses too, swords and components aren't cheap, not to mention wages. Just like the terriorists and drug dealers today, instead of keeping it in a room waiting for "heroes" to steal, why not use it to better their weapons or influence.

    Typically the average humanoid tribe lair conservatively has (500 gp) and yet the warriors have leather armour and short sword and clubs living in squallor. Why wouldn't the tribe find a dishonest merchant and purchase better arms or even luxury goods for the chief, similar to the black market trade with the american natives.


    All that is certainly possible, and even likely. However, I think treasure and plunder also act as a status symbol for giants and humanoids-it's not just spent, but also a source of esteem and pride. Consider the millionaires and billionaires in real life-do they even need all that money for their living expenses? No they don't, but they're driven to acquire more and more money anyway because of the social status it can bring.

    Simply having that wealth can make you feel good about yourself, and command respect from others-and this applies to adventurers too; they might make a decent living as blacksmiths or farmers, but they want something more than that out of life-namely the prestige and status that comes with adventuring.

    In many circles IRL, money equals power, prestige and respect. It's no different for the inhabitants of a fantasy world, whether human or not.

    That said, many orcs and goblins no doubt buy things like alcohol, tobacco, weapons, and extra food from shady merchants, and it's arguably even a way for creatures like giants to get extra food-buying it as opposed to over-hunting or over-fishing an area. Money can also be used in negotiations-fog giants love silver, and cloud giants might seal a deal with them by giving them a hundred thousand silver pieces. For a fog giant, that would have immense symbolic value well beyond the worth of the metal.
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    Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:07 pm  

    Controlling the mint was originally a source of prestige and wealth. Not only was there the vanity issue that Samwise mentioned, but if you controlled the mint there was all manner of things you could do to make money. Also, it ensured that you actually had coins around to do stuff. Hoping enough coinage trickled in from your neighbor's lands might or might not work.

    If you have gold or silver mines, controlling the mint means you can make as many coins as you feel like rather than paying some foreigner to do so.

    Minting your own coins meant that you knew what the coin was worth without needing to weigh them out regularly.

    If you are unscrupulous and owe the evil usurers tens of thousands of "silver shekels", you could use the power of the mint to make more "silver shekels" that have less silver in them than the ones you borrowed. The byzantine gold coin (generally called a bezant) used to be widely used by international traders. One of the motivations for the Italian city states to make their own golc coins was that after centuries of stability, the byzantines started having to devalue their currency.

    If you controlled the mint, you could declare previous coinages invalid for paying taxes and other such things, requiring everyone to bring their old coins in to exchange for new ones. This was effectively a tax on everyone, since old coins tended to be worn, shaved, cut, and whatnot..

    And so on. Minting was generally a profitable business to be in during the middle ages. It wasn't really until the late Rennaissance, early industrial era that the costs in labor and production started approaching the point where it became a necessary expense rather than a money spinner.
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    Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:12 pm  

    Large coin hoards are a bit specious as a treasure for many kinds of monsters. But that is really because the coinage is a placeholder for the other sources of value that would otherwise be present. While modules do provide other things of value for the PCs to loot, "reality" would generally increase the amount of goblets, tapestries, jewelry, spell/potion components, trophies, and whatnot that would be there instead of that value of coin.

    The coin must makes the DM's job easier, as he doesn't need to define all that stuff to reward the players for their latest massacre.
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