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    Canonfire :: View topic - Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mags
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    Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mags
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    Sage of Canonfire

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    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:38 pm  
    Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mags

    Read all about it on the Paizo site:

    http://www.paizo.com

    Its the end of an era and of course, a big blow to published Greyhawk.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:56 pm  

    Most of us here have seen similar waves of stupidity in the past... it will pass, though we don't know how yet.

    Hang around a bit.

    Edited by Duicarthan 04/20/07
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    Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 pm  

    So this is the end? No more published material. Again.


    God this gets old. From now on anything I want from WotC is coming from illegal downloads. I'm done-er with them than normal.
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    Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:22 pm  

    Sad
    This is really a sad turn of events. Erik Mona made sure that Greyhawk stayed in print the only way it was possible and when it seemed that sales supported that act the magazines get axed. By a company that thinks they can do better...

    Mad The Greyhawk content in Dungeon made me put up with all the other content - now it's gone. No more Greyhawk maps, no Greyhawk gods, no Maure Castle, no nothing.

    Sure, I've got all the good stuff from the days of yore but I'm a high-income consumer in the age of consumtion - I want something to buy once in a while!
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    Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:59 am  

    Well, that's certainly surprising. I've never been a regular purchaser of either magazine..just spot purchases of things that interested me. But I am really wondering how they are going to sell the same content effectively over the internet. Guess we'll find out.
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    Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:20 am  

    I don't forsee this going over very well with many people. Just a cursory glance around the web, even the people who don't play the new edition seem disappointed at this turn of events. On the other hand, Paizo's Pathfinder sounds very interesting. Perhaps their new setting for these adventure paths will be compatible with Greyhawk more easily than the Eberron-type settings we're getting elsewhere. As far as this goes, I don't see myself getting into the 'online only' craze that seems to be going on, so I will stick with Paizo and Pathfinder.
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    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
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    Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:44 am  

    This is the second license pulled in a few months. WotC pulled the license from Codemonkey Publishing for the E-Tools updates.

    Per Erik Mona's posts yesterday on the Paizo forums, they were happy with their sales and growing subscriber base, but this was a WotC decision.

    Anyone want to engage in a bit of rampant speculation that this is the precursor to 4th edition, or the end of the OGL? Laughing

    Also in those forums, Erik posted that he is on record at WotC "as being extremely interested in a Greyhawk license or licensing opportunities related to that property."

    So it's another setback, but it's not the end of the world.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:18 am  

    Telas wrote:
    ...it's not the end of the world.


    FAQ What is Canonfire! wrote:
    Canonfire! is a term coined by Erik Mona (Iquander). Its a pun on so many levels, but think of it as taking pre-existing canon (all the books and adventures ever created for Greyhawk) and setting it on creative fire. Let a thousand Greyhawks bloom....

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    Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:26 pm  

    Telas wrote:
    Anyone want to engage in a bit of rampant speculation that this is the precursor to 4th edition, or the end of the OGL? Laughing


    Well, it's not the end of the OGL. The d20 license, perhaps, but that's lost alot of value anyways. The OGL is irrevocable. WotC can't do anything about it, ever. There's a fair chance this will reinvigorate the 3rd-party market, IMO. Without Dragon to supply the little tidbit articles, a few companies are probably racing to look into a monthly OGL fantasy magazine, just as Paizo's Pathfinder thing is apparently looking to replace Dungeon.

    As far as 4th edition...the Magic Item Compendium settled my mind there. IMO, "4e" will be released soon, probably next Winter Fantasy (or D&D Experience, as I think they're calling it now), but it won't be called 4e. Revised or Advanced, is my guess, and it'll bring the PH, MM, and DMG "up to date" and in line with PH2, DMG2, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, Rules Compendium, MM IV & V, and the second wave of Complete X that's underway now. So, ruleswise, most of the material is already out there. It'll be more like D&D 3.6 or something.

    It could be sooner, though -- if WotC rolls out their Digital Initiative to line up with the end of Dragon and Dungeon, it matchs up pretty well with the fall/winter releases, which could still be altered. Timing the Digital Initiative with news or the release of a revised PH could provide a big boost, and take advantage of holiday season sales.
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    Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:32 pm  

    Of all the stuff on that list I bought DMG2, and it is at best remotely useful to me. If that is what passes for the next edition I'm fairly secure that I won't be needing anything more from Wizards (Except EtCG which I consider a 'Paizo product'), hardcopy or digital anytime soon.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:17 am  

    Nellisir already hit many of the points I'd bring up. This possibly could give the 3rd party publishers a shot in the arm, but not for a while yet as the magazines will be going until September. I'm glad Necromancer Games is still alive, as they are my favorite 3rd party publisher. Not many can do a magazine format though, and even Paizo is leaving that format behind in favor of perfect bound monthly booklets (which are more expensive).

    GENCON this year ought to herald not only the 4th Edition of the game, but likely the unveiling of the planned WotC web content as well. Maybe there will be some new 3rd party OGL stuff there too because of this whole thing. Well, if not the imminent release of these then surely the announcement of them. As soon as I saw the Complete Spell Compendium with the Complete Magic Item Compendium coming out shortly thereafter, I knew I’d seen this pattern before. Should be and interesting convention to be sure.

    The online format certainly curtails the reading time I usually put in while I am occupying the Throne of Iuz, as I don’t have a laptop. Besides, I hate paying for things I find on-line anyways. This includes e-zines, monthly gaming fees (WoW, etc.), and…other things you might have to pay a monthly on-line user fee for. Besides, spending long amounts of time in front of a computer reading articles is a sure fire way to having a getting a headache or having a seizure. I wonder which one will cause the first wrongful death lawsuit. ;) Still, WotC may have some trick up their sleeve to make it worth while. I’ll have to wait and see, though I certainly would prefer a hard copy of gaming material. As to 4e, WotC will have to come very close to making all of the changes I would like for me to be interested in purchasing any of it.

    Edit: I just checked out how Paizo plans on handling the transition of those who have subscriptions which go beyond the last September issues of Dungeon and Dragon(I have subscriptions to both). From the looks of things, a good amount of thought was put into it, and all I can say is that Paizo's transition options are beyond excellent. Accordingly I have decided to go with the Pathfinder option, and look forward to it living up to my expectations.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:07 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Of all the stuff on that list I bought DMG2, and it is at best remotely useful to me.


    And of all the stuff on that list, DMG2 is probably the weakest. The monster selection in MMIV isn't too hot, but the format is good.

    Complete Mage + PH2 were probably my top two books of last year.
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    Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:10 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Edit: I just checked out how Paizo plans on handling the transition of those who have subscriptions which go beyond the last September issues of Dungeon and Dragon(I have subscriptions to both). From the looks of things, a good amount of though was put into it, and all I can say is that Paizo's transition options are beyond excellent. Accordingly I have decided to go with the Pathfinder option, and look forward to it living up to my expectations.


    I -don't have subscriptions to rollover, but the first adventure arc -finally- looks like something I'd run, the cost is reasonable with the discount, and the free pdf of each issue sold it. So I'll be signing up. Kudos to Paizo - I haven't subscribed to Dragon in at least 5 years.
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    Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:47 pm  

    Wonder how it will affect everyone (including myself) who have been hounding them to bind Age of Worms into a HC. Erik was always cagey but kept hinting that there were difficulties.
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    Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:23 am  
    Could it be a good thing for Greyhawk?

    It is way too early to tell, but speculating is fun...

    I assume printing costs and complications are driving this decision. In lieu of any idea what direction Wizards are going to take with the "digital content" I was thinking about what they might do.

    Presumably the idea will be we "subscribe" to it and in return we can access and download content. But what content?

    The same sort of thing as Dragon magazine? Are they going to divide the material up into different sections (such as Campaign Settings) and people pay to subscribe to those bits of interest to them? Or one subscription gives you access to all?

    What would be nice for the long suffering Greyhawk fans was if they got Eric to arrange an official Greyhawk e-zine that Greyhawk fans could subscribe to. You still have issues with no treading on the toes of Living Greyhawk, but it would allow the good work being done to continue in a published form. It seems that with the issue of printing out of the way, Wizards would be free to have a low risk gamble on producing material for some of the forgotten campaign settings and see if the public is interested.

    I assume that the material Wizards is going to publish will be much like Dragon material? With fans contributing articles, or could they employ only staff to produce material?

    The success of this initiative obviously rests on the quality of material. I hope to top nothc artwork continues to make it into the material.

    I have to say as a very long time gamer, it feels weird to think there will be no more Dragon magazine. Wow.
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    Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:45 pm  

    Just a brief note that this event produced a good deal of speculation on GreyTalk, along with a brief bit o'flame.

    Nellisir, what did you like about Complete Mage?
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    Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:22 pm  

    Well, it wasn't the viability of the magazines themselves that drove the decision. Paizo officials have stated that they were quite pleased with the growing subscription rates and profitability of the magazines and would love to continue producing it. So its obvious that WotC wants to get a larger share of that money by producing the material themselves and digitally distributing it. They are apparently going to do that in house, so Erik won't be involved since he's part of Paizo's staff rather than WotC's. Erik has said he's interested in licensing GH, but that seems unlikely to happen. Its certainly the opposite direction from that WotC is taking with their other properties (ie revoking licenses to third party distributors).

    How they go about soliciting material and what sort of format it is distributed in hasn't been revealed, afaik. But apparently they feel that enough of their fanbase is now internet based that they can market the kind of material that used to go in the two magazines digitally instead. Not at all sure that is true, myself. I'm more inclined towards the way Paizo is going about it: with a print periodical also available in pdf, either separately or included in the cost of the print subscription. That's how a number of mainstream magazines work these days.

    Of course, Pathfinder is a book series rather than a magazine so its kind of pricey. And its the kind of content the magazines provided that I'm least interested in: adventures and APs. Particularly since they'll be set in some new Paizo-world rather than GH.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:38 am  

    I just had to post this from the Paizo forums:

    "James Jacobs (Editor-in-Chief, Dungeon and Pathfinder), Yesterday, 02:07 PM

    I certainly don't expect anyone to play through two Adventure Paths in a year, but at the same point, I don't expect everyone to love every Adventure Path that appears in Pathfinder. By keeping them to a 6-month run and doing two a year, we increase the number of Adventure Paths you have to choose from in a year, so that there's a better chance of finding something you like. If you don't like one, you won't have to wait a year for a new one.
    At the same time, we're really trying to make sure that the non-adventure half of each Pathfinder is useful in any campaign (in addition to supporting the adventure). If a volume of Pathfinder's adventure is an "explore the swamp and defeat the castle full of snake men" adventure, then we'll support it with an ecology-style writeup of the snake men and a big environment-style article about running games in swamps. The new monster section will have 6 new swamp monsters. Those articles are useful far beyond supporting the swamp adventure."


    AAARRGH!!!!
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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:44 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    AAARRGH!!!!

    And it begins....
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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:49 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I'm more inclined towards the way Paizo is going about it: with a print periodical also available in pdf, either separately or included in the cost of the print subscription. That's how a number of mainstream magazines work these days.

    Of course, Pathfinder is a book series rather than a magazine so its kind of pricey. And its the kind of content the magazines provided that I'm least interested in: adventures and APs. Particularly since they'll be set in some new Paizo-world rather than GH.
    I give Wizards a year before they copycat Pathfinder. They'd love nothing more than to get you to buy more of their splatbooks and a subscription method might do it. Ptoi!
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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:44 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    I give Wizards a year before they copycat Pathfinder. They'd love nothing more than to get you to buy more of their splatbooks and a subscription method might do it. Ptoi!


    True. Also, I think that Erik and the Paizo gang must be grinning like schoolboys with all the free publicity Pathfinder is getting. This has generated some major criticism from all over the web. It's like the entire gaming comunity did a double-take and said "They did WHAT?". I think Paizo will do just fine, even though we may lament the loss of two of our favorite magazines. James Jacobs said (and I apologize, I don't have the linky, but here's the gist) that their new campaign setting for these adventure paths will be created in large part the way Greyhawk was for many of us - through it's modules.

    In effect, they are doing what I wanted Wizards, and previously, TSR at the end to do - reinvigorate the gaming community by returning us to the 'shared experience'. That shared experiece is what makes the games we play (regardless of system) great for me.


    Edit: Found the quote I was looking for...
    James Jacobs wrote:
    The setting is brand new. It's an entire campaign world we're currently in the process of creating; one who's development will primarily be guided by Pathfinder and our GameMastery products, kind of like how back in 1st edition the adventures pretty much did the job of developing the world of Greyhawk.

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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:19 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Nellisir, what did you like about Complete Mage?


    I thought it did a good job including all the little "innovations" that have piled up over the past 2 years and supplementing them in a way that fit the theme of the book, and it didn't waste a ton of space.

    I'll try to be more explicit when I've got the book in front of me. I just generally thought it was a good, useful book. It had alot of content that I want to use in my games, or could use in my game.

    I wasn't so thrilled with Complete Scoundrel. Maybe I'll compare the two.
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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:09 pm  
    Re: Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mag

    PSmedger wrote:
    Read all about it on the Paizo site:

    http://www.paizo.com

    Its the end of an era and of course, a big blow to published Greyhawk.


    It bears repeating. It is the end of an era. As long as I have been gaming, there has been a Dragon. And then Dungeon much later, but which quickly became an institution in its own right. It says something that the IP holder does not see sufficient value in the continuation of these icons of table top roleplaying in print. Or even online. As I read it the magazines are not going digital but going away, with Wotc promising similar content in there new fee based e-service, which has yet to be unveiled.

    Personally, I have no interest in subscribing to an e-service, even were it to include Greyhawk material. Call me Grognard, Luddite or what have you. E-pubs are to me too ephemeral to ever be "canon" or to ever be such that I would base or even modify a campaign to account for them. By way of example, Traveller has/had "official" e-support. I know no Traveller gamers who count it as anything to be taken into account when considering Traveller "canon." If Greyhawk were to be revived in whole or in part via an e-service, I would account it as just slightly more than nothing, if I was aware of it at all or could then be made to care. Highly doubtful.

    This leads to the "blow to published Greyhawk." Besides references to Greyhawk etc. in Wotc accessories, there is now no published Greyhawk anymore. While I can mourn the passing of the era of Dragon and Dungeon, I'm not sorry that PaizoHawk will now end. I appreciate that its heart was in the right place but, IMO, PaizoHawk was always too compromised by the restrictions Wotc placed upon Paizo's use of Greyhawk IP - "FreeCity" not "City of Greyhawk" etc. I know many could overlook this sort of thing but it never sat well with me. Neither did PaizoHawk's need to be sufficiently generic to accomodate FR etc. fans who were also Dungeon/Dragon customers. To me PaizoHawk was the proverbial glass half-empty and I'm pleased that, as a completist/obsessive-compulsive, I will no longer need to account for it.

    I very much like the notion of a Paizo Setting and the Pathfinder approach to such as I understand it. Eric Mona has more than demonstrated his gaming acumen and James Jacobs is nothing short of a genius, IMO. I am very anxious to see what they can do freed from Wotc's restrictions and I will definitely support the Pathfinder titles. My wife has already voiced her intent to switch her Dungeon and Dragon subscriptions over to Pathfinder and to subscribe thereafter. I fully agree. I am particularly interested to see what Mr. Jacobs can do with a "Demonomicon" and/or "Core Beliefs" type inclusion in the Pathfinder setting, free to follow his own dictates.

    While it is a sad day that Dragon and Dungeon sunset, I think the news beyond those facts is positive. Best wishes and future support to Paizo and its staff.

    GVD

    PS - Long time, no see. In addition to death and pestilence, I am now dealing with potential famine as I am in the process of getting myself fired from my employment, playing chicken to see who blinks first. Glad to see Canonfire rolls on. With the demise of Dragon and Dungeon, I think it fairly safe to say Canonfire is/remains the Greyhawkers' first, best source for Greyhawk - for the fans by the fans.
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    Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:46 pm  
    Re: Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mag

    GVDammerung wrote:
    PS - Long time, no see. In addition to death and pestilence, I am now dealing with potential famine as I am in the process of getting myself fired from my employment, playing chicken to see who blinks first. Glad to see Canonfire rolls on. With the demise of Dragon and Dungeon, I think it fairly safe to say Canonfire is/remains the Greyhawkers' first, best source for Greyhawk - for the fans by the fans.
    It's good to see Incabulos hasn't completely broken you GVD, hang in there. And I agree that CF is now more important than ever.
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    Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:12 am  
    Re: Sad News: Dungeon and Dragon are cancelled as print mag

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Call me Grognard, Luddite or what have you.


    Grognard, Luddite. It is good to see you posting again. I hope everythings works out. I also hope you get to participate in the Postfest GHL initiated, if/when it starts. Burn, baby, burn!
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    Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:12 am  

    I'll certainly go buying that first adventure path and the GM module scheduled for autumn. IMO, Paizo starting their new lines was overdue, and, aeeing what splendid authors work for them, things seem to look quite good.

    BTW, for those looking for more oldschool/Greyhawk content, are you aware of the material RJK is releasing through PPP? - It's surely not official, and it surely doesn't match the production standards of WotC and Paizo, but it's as Greyhawk as one can have it these days. Smile
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    Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:34 am  

    Ironically I was about to let my subscription lapse because I wasn't really all that interested in the way the AP's were going.

    I switched my sub over to Pathfinder and will see how it goes through the first few issues.

    As far as WotC goes... I think they are reaching. Corporations don't make major changes if everything is looking rosy. As I speculated a couple of years ago, D&D online is a flop (compare to WoW's 8.5 million subscribers Laughing ) Eberron is not selling any better than FR and I think they are still a couple of years from 4th edition. This online thing is simply a companies way of throwing all the balls into the air and seeing where they land.

    And I think what it boils down to is that Hasbro doesn't have the patience for the product lines that WotC offers. Smaller companies can make money from RPG's much more efficiently and don't have to worry as much about the steep production curve that I am sure is what Hasbro is looking for. They want everything to have a shelf life and profits curve similar to D&D minis now and Magic cards during the 90's.

    If they can't get that from RPG's, they are shooting for the next best thing, an installed subscriber base that looks similar to the number of people playing WoW online. I just don't see that happening, WoW is an impulse mechanism that keeps people entertained over days worth of time. Sadly the biggest pool of people who would be a subscriber base for this content (the readers of Dungeon & Dragon) just became alienated, and I am sure in my cases switched over to Paizo's new product which will probably cost more than WotC online offering.

    I think Hasbro will probably sell D&D at some point, and maybe the whole entity of WotC, time will tell. If 4th edition comes out like a lead balloon I would dare say it would be the only sane thing for them to do.
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    Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:11 pm  

    Lead balloons rock!
    Wink
    Just today I got .my subscription renewal notice for Dungeon. Well, I was not planning on renewing anyway.
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    Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:00 am  

    As a longtime lurker, and even longer-time GREYHAWK and AD&D player, I though this would be a good place to jump in.... 8)

    Are there any plans, now that the magazine is running its course, for the collected issues NOT on the original Dragon Archive to be put out in some digital form? I have the original Archive, and it's the best overpriced eBay purchase I ever made. 8) I would love to get the rest of the magazine's run in a digital format, especailly becuase I want the series of articles that described ancient cities of our world in term of gaming ideas (I only have one issue....).

    Anyway, as a former subscriber to DRAGON, I will be VERY sad to see it go.
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    Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:07 pm  

    The question has been asked before, and while Erik wanted to do another compilation of Dragon on CD/DVD, there seemd to be issues with working out a deal to do so.

    Given the current news, it seems very unlikely that it will ever happen unless WotC does it. Even then, I'm not holding my breath.
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    Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:48 am  
    A sad day indeed

    It has been a while since I dropped my two cents in on anything here, but this is an event that provokes nostalgic emotions for some of us.

    Seeing Dragon and Dungeon mags go away is equivalent to the passing of a good friend. For over 20 years I have been a shelf purchaser of each, picking and choosing the issues that provoked ideas and supplemented interests. Everything from the 'toons to the announcements of future events and releases has kept my enthusiasm for the game and genre always going. Like music, even to this day, the mags have always brought me back to a feeling of youth and joy, even through the haze of work and family life. It never even crossed my mind, that such an instution as they have become, would ever be gone. It is a sad day indeed.

    While I was quite happy that WoTC purchased the D&D license to save it from extinction, there are always trade offs. Gaming started as a small business niche and has always flourished under smaller company ideals. To this day, gaming thrives off of the independent spirit that is associated with the small business game company and the creators that lead to their founding. All things come big circle, and I am confident, that D&D, in whatever form under whoevers leadership, will find a way to survive. I am only glad that there is a resource like Canonfire! to keep the part of it that we here love, alive and well.

    Garnak

    PS This will be my only cynical remark, but it has to be made. Ironic an online source like Canonfire! is what we here appreciate most, when I get the feeling that some are already disillusioned with WotC future online idea.
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    Sun May 06, 2007 8:32 am  

    I am rather pleased to hear this.

    WoTC turns a blind eye to customer retention once again. They do hardly anything to gain new customers.

    Just another step towards D&D eventually exchanging hands again. I am patient.

    Heres to the hopes that Hasbro starts eyeballin the Printed dollars and it goes down. Way down. Plz plz plz.
    _________________
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Sun May 06, 2007 8:52 am  

    Well, if that isnt a silver lining! I like it. I was (am) sad at the loss of Dungeon and Dragon. For the last 5 years I have run adventures almost exclusively from their pages. I simply have not had time to make my own.

    However, the idea of D&D going into other hands also makes me very happy.
    Novice

    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 3


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    Wed May 16, 2007 12:05 pm  

    Anced_Math wrote:
    Most of us here have seen similar waves of stupidity in the past... it will pass, though we don't know how yet.

    Hang around a bit.

    Edited by Duicarthan 04/20/07


    The wave of stupidity at WotC has been going on ever since they took over the Dungeons and Dragons namebrand though.

    ~~~
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 11, 2007
    Posts: 64
    From: South Georgia

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    Thu May 17, 2007 3:06 pm  

    yea it is a sad note indeed, although I quit buying both of them along qwith everything printed for third edition. I am a die hard second edition AD&D'er and will NEVER change to third.

    On a good note, I have every issue of both up to the point where they both went over to third, so I figure Im gonna have a small fortune worth of magazines in the end hehe
    Novice

    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 3


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    Wed May 30, 2007 5:48 pm  

    I actually like DMG2. Now PHB2 is another story.

    Honestly, I have not bought any WotC products in a looong time as they do not respect the fans of the older editions nor the tradition of tabletop gaming. Their articles focus more on video games and card game drop and play-like tactics for running campaigns.

    ~~~
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