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    Canonfire :: View topic - Titanic Greyhawk
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    Titanic Greyhawk
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:46 pm  
    Titanic Greyhawk

    Dragon 357 has within its covers "The Ecology of theTitan," wherein the titans as first creations of the gods are presented and how the titans rebelled against the gods and were put down. Cronus (CR56 in 3X terms!!!) is stated out as the biggest and badest of the titans now imprisoned by the gods on the plane of Carceri. The gods who had to work together as a team, like a divine The Justice League, included Boccob, Olidammara, Wee Jas, and Fharlanghn. And this was after Cronus took the best shots of Pelor, Obad-hai, and Heironeous and Hextor (the later two working together!). But all is well, as Cronos is imprisoned where he believes he continues to fight and slay the gods in an illusionary universe/prison.

    Trouble is, Cronos has just about killed all the illusionary gods and when he has finally done so "the potent magic befuddling his mind might crumble. When it does, Cronos' rage at the gods' trickery promises their doom. He will shrug off the mighty shackles of Carceri's greatest prison and regain his powers to menace the heavens. The gods have seen their doom in their own illusaionary trap, and they fear they might not be able to stand against Cronos."

    Soooooo . . .

    Greyhawk now includes a modified version of the Greek titan myth.

    Greyhawk now has Cronos to contend with, along with Tharizdun, seeking to overturn the apple cart.

    And Cronos, like Big T, seems up to the task.

    And Cronos' creator/father is Uranus in the article , who now enters Greyhawk's divine ranks.

    While I think the Ecology of the Titan article is very nicely done, I'm not sure what I think about the inclusion of the mythology into Greyhawk.

    One response would be that the names of the GH gods were taken in vain by 3X and are just "defaults," but that would be sort of an odd response IMO as Boccob etc. are very clearly Oerth's gods without any other context to substitute for Oerth. See generally D&D Gaz (3rd Ed) (identifying the 3.0 default as Greyhawk/Oerth, with no later "repeal" of that status with 3.5 specifically).

    Otherwise . . . ???
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    GVD
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    Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:18 pm  

    The GH parts all look so randomly thrown in there. Tsk. Sadly if this were still the 2E era, Cronus would make a great multiversal foe for the assembled pantheons of D&D.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
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    Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:03 am  

    GVD, welcome back!

    If one really wants to tweak this material into the old Greyhawk material, there is an element that could account for the eventual downfall of Cronus. Just as in the Greek mythos, Cronus must be struck down by his own offspring, Zeus...er, I mean ZARUS!

    Hey, if one intends to add Cronus (perhaps spelled Kronis), Zarus (Zeus) just seems to fit. Perhaps Zarus is bewitched, just as Kronis, because the gods wish to avoid the eventual Kronis/Zarus "titanic" (sorry, couldn't resist) battle and the renewed devastation with the divine reordering it would cause. Zarus just needs to be, or will be, awakened to complete the cycle. Zarus "king" of the human gods?

    I imagine this article (like the one on Zarus) will be a very hard sell here at Canonfire. But, it is interesting and full of potential. Like the Tomb of Horrors, it begs to be explored/discussed here. Scary! but I have already used a variation of this in my campaign. For my players, they prefer a Greyhawk divine heirarchy and genesis.

    I sincerely cannot wait to read the quality input of others regarding this arcticle. Yes, one could just ignore it or claim foul and canon heresay, but it seems like a good discussion post anyway.

    Cheers
    Forum Moderator

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    Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:29 am  

    AFAIK old canon for GH doesn't support a Titanesque era one way or another. It could work. Having slept on it I now recall in the Age of Worms AP there is a Titan named Krethanos(?) trapped on a demiplane by the druidic Order of the Storms. He is the epitomy of chaos, an insane Titan that did so much wanton destruction he had to be isolated on that demiplane to calm him. He also has a cool golden belt encrusted with jewels. Any other possible Titan references?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:13 am  

    A titan named Kendar is held captive in GDQ1-7 (Hall of the Fire Giant King). Happy I'm ucertain of other Greyhawk Titans, but since they appeared in the 1st ed. Monster Manual, I figure that they must have a place in Greyhawk somewhere.

    Are they in your campaign Question

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    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:24 am  

    I wouldn't say that Greyhawk now has the Greek titan myth now, just that Core Rules has the titan myth. The titan myth would work in the Sword and Sorcery Studios campaign world, as a version of it was written into it, but it does not suit Greyhawk.

    And no, this isn't just me being contrary, its just me trying to put a positive spin on such a horrible idea! Put me in the "the names of the GH gods were taken in vain" category. Happy

    Forewarned is forearmed. This issue should arrive any day now. Happy

    Titans do have place in Greyhawk, but not an almost literal Greek Myth version of them with a few name changes as has been described. A few adventures include titans. The one I recall most readily is the titan prisoner in the GDQ series, so titans are roaming around in GH canon. The proto-gods angle could be one explanation, the titans being remnants of the Chaos Wars perhaps, or they could just be powerful mortal entities. For instance, titans could be the forebears of the giant races, or even transcended giants. In either case they might be ageless but still able to be killed, kind of like quasi-deities, but a heck of a lot bigger. The titan of brutishness and brutality spawned, or once was of, the hill giant race. The titan of fire spawned, or once was of, the fire giant race. The titan of storms spawned, or once was of, the storm or cloud giant race. Etc., etc.

    Just a few ideas to to add to the stew pot. Welcome back to the forums by the way.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:00 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    And no, this isn't just me being contrary, its just me trying to put a positive spin on such a horrible idea! Put me in the "the names of the GH gods were taken in vain" category. Happy

    . . . The proto-gods angle could be one explanation, the titans being remnants of the Chaos Wars perhaps, or they could just be powerful mortal entities. For instance, titans could be the forebears of the giant races, or even transcended giants. . . .

    Just a few ideas to to add to the stew pot. Welcome back to the forums by the way.


    Thank you. Smile I like the proto-god idea and definitely like the titans as creators of the giants - in that way rivals of the gods, leading to the gods casting them down?

    I don't mind the titans as first creations of the gods either. Especially if those gods were not the GH gods but some sort of primeval gods that the titans did away with, leaving the GH gods to clean up the mess. Musing, in this way there might be:

    1) The Primeval Gods,
    2) The titans as creations of the Primeval Gods who overthrew the Primeval Gods, leaving,
    3) The GH gods, lesser children of the Primeval Gods, who have to take out titans or be taken out themselves, and
    4) The giants and few remaining titans as enemies of mankind, elfkind, dwarfkind etc. thereafter, as they are the children of the GH gods who threwdown the titans and supplanted the giants for dominion over Oerth

    What I really don't care for is Uranus and by that naming bringing actual Greek myth into uncomfortable (for me) alignment with Greyhawk. While I find the article well written and interesting, I agree it has a high degree of "wtf" in it.
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    GVD
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:06 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I don't mind the titans as first creations of the gods either. Especially if those gods were not the GH gods but some sort of primeval gods that the titans did away with, leaving the GH gods to clean up the mess.


    It seems reasonable that these gods would be the gods of the giant pantheon - specifically, Annam, the creator god worshiped by all giant races. He could have sired the titans first, then sired the other giant races when it became clear that the titans were too powerful, and the nongiant gods banished them.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:40 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    While I find the article well written and interesting, I agree it has a high degree of "wtf" in it.


    I may very well have to sig that. Happy
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:13 pm  

    I find my self in an odd spot, as I have often been a vocal supporter and advocate of Paizo's works. However, I did not think this article was particularly well written or interesting. WTFWYT was more my response.

    I thought it lacked originality or utility. I like titans. I like Greek Myth. I like Greyhawk. Apparently the author did also and used it as a bad recipe. It just didnt work for me... and I was really hoping it would. It casually alters a creational history of the world... as if that is a fairly casual thing. Cenezoic, Mesozoic, Age of the Clowns (or giants), Paleozoic... Hmmm. One of these things are not like the other.

    This would have been far better if it had not attempted a shoe horn into GH. A greater departure from greek myth wouldnt have hurt either.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
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    Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:21 am  

    Hi folks. Glad to see this thread: I was interested in the article and hoped to discuss it.

    My first concern focused not on GH but instead on how the myth of titans interacts with the mythos uncovered by Iquander, et al. regarding the baernoloths, Queen of Chaos, elemental-oriented Law-Chaos wars, Elder Elves and Far Zone, etc.

    Also, what relationship do the draconic gods have with the giant gods that may have made titans in their own image.

    Alternatively, or additionally, are the titans Green Ronin's divs by another name? If not, how are they related?

    I like Cebrion's suggestion:
    Quote:

    The proto-gods angle could be one explanation, the titans being remnants of the Chaos Wars perhaps, or they could just be powerful mortal entities. For instance, titans could be the forebears of the giant races, or even transcended giants. In either case they might be ageless but still able to be killed, kind of like quasi-deities, but a heck of a lot bigger.
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