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    Canonfire :: View topic - Knights of the March Discussion
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    Knights of the March Discussion
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:07 am  

    The Knights of the March didn't purposely mess with things related to Vecna. Agents(known as the Malagari, and later on also as the Darkwatch) of the Silent Ones used membership within the order to cloak their true purpose which was to obliterate/kill/capture any and all things related to Vecna(among other things). That's not to say they didn't use other members of the order to unknowlingly help them out here and there in their tasks. Wink
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    Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:53 pm  
    More Knightly Stuff

    Ah, I understand now. I thought that the events of Tyrus and Vecna II's defeat preceded the Malagari. Somewhere I got the notion that the Darkwatch formed as the rest of the Knights of the March faded away when Tavish Rhola I founded the Knights of the Watch in 301 CY.

    So, when were the Knights of the March formed? Was it before -161 CY? I thought they were formed in -161 CY by the Duke of Dorlin under pressure from King Malv II to subdue the area of Gran March after the Yaheetes rebellion. But, language in Conforti's Knights of the Watch article suggests the knighthood existed before Gran March was recognized as a part of the Duchy of Dorlin.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer does say "... the nascent Keolandish crown created an order of knights in the frontier region." The "frontier region" would become Gran March. I guess the Duke of Dorlin did not found the Knights of the March, as I believed.

    I split these posts from the "Tyrus's Location" thread. Just in case anyone wanted to add to the discussions separately.

    Don (Greyson)
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    Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:33 pm  
    Re: More Knightly Stuff

    Greyson wrote:
    . . . So, when were the Knights of the March formed? Was it before -161 CY? I thought they were formed in -161 CY by the Duke of Dorlin under pressure from King Malv II to subdue the area of Gran March after the Yaheetes rebellion. . . .
    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer does say "... the nascent Keolandish crown created an order of knights in the frontier region." The "frontier region" would become Gran March. I guess the Duke of Dorlin did not found the Knights of the March, as I believed.

    I split these posts from the "Tyrus's Location" thread. Just in case anyone wanted to add to the discussions separately.

    Don (Greyson)
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    There had to be a "March" for there to be Knights of the March. However, there could have a precursor group. I think this likely as an order of knighthood cannot spring into being overnight and be as effective as the KoW seem to have been from nearly the getgo. This is where the character of Azmerander (sp) comes in who gave the knights the Precepts. He does not have a date attached to him and could have inspired a knightly order before the Gran March ever existed. I tend to (mildly) favor this option.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:21 am  

    The Duke of Dorlin did found the Knights of the March(chartered by the then duke in -161 CY), at the direction of the King. The Dukes of Dorlin were a growing power that needed to be checked, so the current King commanded the Duke to fund the founding of an order of knights with the purpose of tying him up pacifying the northern border marches. The plan sort of backfired when the Knights of the March dropped the hammer on that area and pacified it in no short amount of time. The Duke had made some very tasty lemonade out of the lemons the King had thought he had handed him.

    As the Dukes of Dorlin's power and influence grew over time, the Knights of the March became more of an arm of the Dukes of Dorlin than they were that of the King. That needed to change. As the purpose of the order was no longer that of pacifying the border marches but one of simply guarding them, the focus of the order was ripe for change. The King stepped in and by royal decree reformed the order into one more to his liking; a form that all but eradicated the influence of the Dukes of Dorlin. And so in 300 CY, by order of Tavish I, the Knights of the March were reformed as the Knights of the Watch, and their ranks were swelled by entrants from all over the Sheldomar, and not just from the lands of the Dukes of Dorlin. The new order's goal became one of guardianship of the entire Sheldomar, of which Dorlin was but a small corner of in the northeast. The Dukes of Dorlin were thereby bloodlessly removed as a threat to the Kings of Keoland and their growing power checked.

    The Malagari existed long before the Knights of the March was formed. It was simply a matter of convenience for them to insinuate themselves into the ranks of the order for the purpose of operating incognito in lands that were once a part of Vecna's empire. The Malagari/Darkwatch may get an article of their own, as it seems that people have a great interest in them and the Silent Ones.

    Enough of this though. I'm going to ruin the impact of my "The Knights of the Watch & the Knights of Dispatch" article , which will follow up on the heels of the soon to be posted "The Knights of Holy Shielding" article(if Gary ever gets it formatted! He has it, and now everybody knows it!) Happy

    Also, this post was meant as a response to Grodog's thread. I must have been really tired and hit the "New Topic" button instead of the "Reply" button. D'oh! Embarassed Perhaps one of the MODS can put these posts there where they belong.
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    Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:00 pm  
    So, It Was -161 CY

    Cebrion wrote:
    ... this post was meant as a response to Grodog's thread. I must have been really tired and hit the "New Topic" button instead of the "Reply" button... Perhaps one of the MODS can put these posts there where they belong.

    I split your answer from the initial thread about Tyrus. I thought it might be better as that Tyrus discussion quickly drifted to talk of the Knights of the March.

    Anyway, thanks for replying, again. It looks like I had the right timeframe in mind. It was the presence of the Malagari I misunderstood. This makes sense given GVD's question - how can you have Knights of the March with no march?

    Information on Azmarender is exceedingly rare. He does sound like a personality that could potentially be a disciple of the Sublime Way from Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords. Perhaps even Reshar himself. If not Reshar, perhaps one of the Nine Masters.

    Don (Greyson)
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:48 am  

    I know what you mean about a lack of information on certain things. It took a while to plumb the depths of Greyhawk to glean all of the information that I have on the Knights of the March, the Knights of the Watch/Dispatch, and the Malagari/Darkwatch. I have a good amount of canon information, some of which has been fruther filled in by a few folks, but it still doesn't paint the most complete of pictures. I have also sought out input form a few folks who are devotees of the Sheldomar. All together, I now have enough information to run with for an article on the Watch/Dispatch. As there are not any Knights of the March left really, I have left out doing up anything specific on them. In my mind, some of what differentiated them from other knightly orders was rolled into the Watch/Dispatch anyways. I expect the end result to change a bit as I continue to go through everything that I have. The Dukes of Dorlin will be a feature, as I like that angle, but i would like to develop a better picture of things as whole. A lot of things goes on int he Gran MArch from 161 CY to present. I wish my article to focus more on the knightly order than on the overall politics of the Sheldomar. The LGG Gran March entry gives lots of information to go along wit the entry for the Knights of the Watch, and serves as a solid base from which to go further.

    Currently, only a few folks call themselves a Knight of the March. It is a borderer honorific sometimes used by those whose ancestors belonged to the order, and it is really more of a snooty usage at this point; most likely used by some non-combatant puffed up minor noble to bolster their seeming importance, or shore up a claim to having “old noble blood”.

    It all makes for some great potential fun though.
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    Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:51 pm  

    Thanks for all the insight Cebrion it is very helpful. I have also been researching the KoW/KoM and I came up with a slightly different slant. The general timeline is the same that I have found.

    However, it was my understanding that the Duke of Dorlain had "claimed," the northern territory for sometime, as a Grand March. However, the Dukes failed to pacify it, and it was beginning to cause problems for Keoland. This always posed problems for me, as it would be the Duke that it caused problems for, not the king. None the less, I understood the references to indicate that it was due to the unsettled nature of the area that caused the push to form the KoW and subsequent pacification.

    I do think there are specific canon notes that indicate the "March," was claimed by the Duke predating the Knights ( I am not at my notes right now), so there is no requirement that the KoW already be in existance.

    As I said, I found the "canon," on this problematic, and I like the slant of the King using it to tie the hands of the Dukes of Dorlain. In an article I am working on (and apparently will be working on till old age) on the history of the March, I tried to address this problem. I had some "First Comer Suel," houses (an invention of Samwise I think, but one I like) that sided with siding with the Malhel. When the Throne exterminated the Malhel , these First Comers fled back north of the Sheldomar. Due to the House Wars, the Kings ignored the First Comers for a time. But they never forgot the betrayal. Their vengance came in two steps.

    IMC, it was for this reason that the King established Hochoch as one of the Five Javan counties (This is from Sam's Excellent GSTL). Hochoch always stood out as a sore thumb on the list to me, because it was so isolated. So, IMC, it was to punish one particular House of First Comer Suel. The second step was to force the pacification of the March.

    As to the Malagari, I thought that Gary wrote some things (we will call it pseudo canon) that they were specifically formed at the dissolution of the KoM. I don't care one way or the other, except that it somewhat litters the landscape with Knighthoods, and an offshoot seems to keep it cleaner.

    I like the idea of a few border nobles still claiming the title of Knight of the March. Unlike your version I left the Duke of Dorlain some influence in the March via the nobles. IMC, he still has influence with some of the Gran March nobility, as he originally granted the Great Barons their titles prior the dissolution of the KoM. The Nobles the Knights both go back to the founding of the March, and their feudal ties would lead to the King of Keoland through the Duke of Dorlain. IMC I do have some who have had their feudal allegiance changed as time went on, but this is a result of the tides of time, not a broad act of the King.

    Anyway, thats my 2 cents.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:16 pm  

    Hello Anced_Math! Glad to see you pop your head up! Happy

    Anyways, I am aware of the supposed failure of the Dukes of Dorlin to pacify the border marches, and I will shortly be looking into the origin of this, but the information I have looked up as recently as yesterday points to the Knights of March doing anything but failing to pacify these lands whatsoever. Quite to the contrary, the Knights of the March were spectacularly successful in pacifying the border lands in short order, at least according to the 83' boxed A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting booklet(p.22: Gran March entry):

    “Keoland established the territory of the Gran March during its early stages, basing it upon a military religious order of knights. These zealous fighters quickly subdued the warring inhabitants, established order within the area, and conscripted all fit males into worker and infantry battles (regimental-like formations).”

    Nothing in FtA or the LGG contradicts this, so it seems that the Knights of the March opened the whole six pack of whoop-@$$ and brought order to the area in a very efficient and timely manner. If we are to assume that the Dukes of Dorlin were behind the formation of the order, one would think that the king might be more than a bit concerned at the ability of a mere vassal to put together such a formidable force and subdue the territory with such ease. Diluting the Dukes of Dorlin’s influence is certainly one very good reason for reforming a highly successful knightly order, for there is no real reason for it otherwise(based on what is written). The craziness of Commandant Berlykin would not happen until the early 400’s CY, so we can rule that out as the reason for the restructuring.

    And so I have been taking a bit of a closer look at what has been written before I write my final version of events.

    And now a few points regarding Steven Conforti’s articles on the WotC site on the Knights of the Watch…

    The first two dates in Part 1 need to be altered to “-342 CY” and “-242 CY” respectively. That little minus character in front of each number makes a world of difference. I still need to cross-reference all of the dates that are listed though, just for completeness. It is Stephen’s article that brings the Dukes of Dorlin into the mix, and it is a feature that I like quite a bit, it being about the king pawning off a seemingly thankless task on one of up-and-coming rivals(at least that is my take on it). He does fail to mention the restructuring of the order as taking place in -161 CY however, which in my view is a significant omission. Stephen also splits off the Malagari from the regular Knights of the Watch, yet they still interact and Malagari still have members in the Watchers(and likely the Dispatchers too). The Darkwatch are well known of apparently, at least among the Watchers, Dispatchers, the noble families, and most other folk not of the common sort, though even some common folk may have heard something of them. What is not common knowledge is the Darkwatch’s true purpose. Watching the Rushmoors and being linked to the Neheli gives us little doubt what that purpose likely is. I very much liked Part 1 of the articles, but Part 2 is full of things that make me cringe, one of which is the romanticized ideal of the knighthood evidenced in the 12 Precepts, which to me does not fit all that well with the idea of a near-monastic order, and especially not with the hatred that the Watchers have for the Baklunish. I can’t imagine a Watcher having the jump on a Ketish knight and, instead of taking advantage of his position of strength, saying

    “Ho varlet! Prepare be smote asunder by mine strong arm, for I will send you to meet your heathen demon god in his lowest hell where you shall swim in the excrement of jackals! Yah!”

    Rather, I see the Watcher burying a crossbow bolt in the Ketish knight, and then charging in with lance cocked or sword drawn. No mercy; no quarter. The Knights of the Watch are hard-bitten fanatics for the most part. Oh, they can of course be courtly and courteous, but not to the point of hindering their ultimate purpose. Near monastic knights with a hatred of Westerlings do no fit the classic romanticized view of the knight in shining armor, nor do I think they should be hindered by such a model. Then there is the whole Commandant Berlykin period where the Watchers were anything but the romanticized knights that the Precepts assume them to be. The Precepts are hedged to some degree in Part 2 of the article, where it is mentioned that “Most Knights conduct their activities based on their own consciences and goals, as tempered by the Twelve and Seven Precepts.” I’d rather that the Precepts be more meaningful than this, particularly the Seven, and be more about realities of knightly life rather than some romanticized view of chivalry. Chivarly is not a "near monastic" teaching. I’d rather that the Precepts not sound so similar to the Solamnic Code either(another example of romanticized chivalry). So, I plan to relate the Precepts to the reality of the orders' mission and will be more along the lines of "near monastic teachings". I'll leave the romanticized chivalry to the daydreaming of fair damsels. Wink

    I’ve gone a little bit off the rails here, but it helps in putting everything in its place. Hopefully nobody minds that.
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    Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:19 pm  

    I also thought the KoM pacified the territory perhaps too well for the King with the objective accomplished he was concerned about the Duke of Dorlain having such a potent force around without reason; these were not the "shining armour courtly types".

    So the King "reformed" the order; providing them with a new purpose and tying their loyalty hopefully more to the throne rather then the local duke.
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    Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:42 pm  
    Which King?

    Crag wrote:
    So the King "reformed" the order; providing them with a new purpose and tying their loyalty hopefully more to the throne rather then the local duke.

    Which timeframe do you mean, Crag? I imagine when you say King that you mean Tavish the Great. Is that right? Or, do you mean the earlier Malv II?

    It still seems to me that Malv II charged the Duke of Dorlin in -161 CY to clean up the region of Gran March to prevent another Yaheetes rebellion. So, the duke of that time, perhaps in concert with the throne, founded the Knights of the March.

    Then, in 301 CY, over four hundred fifty years later, Tavish the Great "reformed" the order to diminish the duke's power and prepare for the Brazen Horde. So, the new order of knights, the Knights of the Watch, became a force to fight the westerlings. But, some mixed their warring against Ket with a continued desire to maintain vigilance against Vecna, his followers and any other trappings of the Occluded One's evil. The Darkwatch sprang into existence as a separate, less public order about the same time - during Tavish I's reign.

    Don (Greyson)
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    Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:21 pm  

    The Darkwatch is a public cover. The Malgari existed before even the Knights of the March were formed.

    Malv II is the king that ordered the dukes of Dorlin to pacify the border marches, which occured in -161 CY, and it was Tavish I who reorganized the order as the Knights of the Watch in 301 CY. Quite a time gap there.
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    Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:57 pm  

    Sorry to be unclear; I thought it was established in the thread already.

    Greyson is correct to paraphase; Malv II charged the Duke of Dorlin in -161 CY to pacify the Gran March. Then, in 301 CY, Tavish the Great "reformed" the order to diminish the duke's power and use the order as a bulwark against the Brazen Horde.

    But as Cebrion states; the Malgari existed before the order but when the KoM and subsequently KoW were formed Malgari joined as a cover so they could continue to guard against Vecna.

    Not to say the Malgari aren't loyal or don't have a dislike of westerners as most members do, simply have another agenda that takes priority.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:46 pm  

    In way of explaining the division of the Darkwatch from the Watchers, it might simply be a case of some of the Knights finding out a bit more than they should know. To guard against this in the future, the Darkwatch splintered off into their own grouping, yet are still a part of the Watchers. They just specifically guard the areas of the Rushmoors and select other locations, and as this is necessary anyways, their motives for doing so are respected.
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    Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:51 pm  

    Just wondering... does the name "Malgari" itself have any significance? Is it also the name of a (Suloise) house or family (it doesn't seem to be)? If not, then what might it mean (is it just a Suloise word for "Darkwatch"?)?

    If the Malgari were/are not a house/family of their own, then what were/are the order's entrance requirements?

    Please forgive my ignorance... I find the Darkwatch/Malgari a fascinating idea, and they have the potential to play a major role in my campaign (which is set in Gran March)... so any info/clarifications would be highly appreciated!

    Also, some posters suggested that the Darkwatch is the "public" name of the Malgari. I would think that it would be far more interesting if the Darkwatch (and the history of Vecna) were known to only a few... it would make their respective existence and missions that much more sinister, in my opinion.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:37 pm  

    “Malagari” does have significance- mostly that it is a very old Suel word. It is not the Suel word for Darkwatch.

    As to the entry requirements, people don’t sign up to join the Darkwatch- it is invite only. The Darkwatch is the mailed fist of the Silent Ones(and the Neheli). People don’t just walk up to the secret society’s door and ask if they can join up. As for pc’s, they could be involved as peripheral agents(not really knowing who they truly serve), and if they prove themselves to be repeatedly resourceful and useful, one or more of them might then be asked to join the Malagari. The Malagari would of course look for individuals with the skills required of potential members(i.e. pre-requisites).

    As to what is meant by the Darkwatch being publicly known, the Darkwatch is known of by the Watchers, but not what their true purpose is(which covers many things other than Vecna). The average peasant wouldn't know anything about them(maybe not even their name) and would likely assume that they are Watchers(as most of them are).
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    Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:09 am  

    Thanks, Cebrion.

    Does the only official canon reference to the Malgari appear in LGJ #1, or are there others?

    I, for one, really look forward to your article being posted!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:22 pm  

    As far as I know, it is one of the only references.

    The article on the Knights of the Watch/Dispatch is proving to be more convoluted than I previosuly thought it would be. I have most of the details nailed down at this point, and as the Malgari are linked to them, a good amount of Malagari information has come to light as well(enough to run with at least).

    I'd also like to link the articles into the Gran March project as well.
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    Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:25 pm  

    Looking forward to it, any submission date in sight.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:50 pm  

    Knights of Holy Shielding is done and The Knights of the Watch/Dispatch article is in what I'd call the final compilation stage(I've been working on it off and on for quite some time actually). In the process of digging up info on the Knights of the Watch/Dispatch I found much info on the Darkwatch/Malagari, so they will follow thereafter. Optimistically speaking, I'd say to look for it around X-Mas time.
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:54 am  

    Hey Cebrion,

    I think your articles would be great in the Gran March project. The big hurdle right now is getting the articles posted. I am working on this, but my web master (Yabusama) has been tied up with personal affairs for some time. I have no computer competence.

    He did finalize the Gran March Barony Map, and as soon I can figure out how, I will have it put up.
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