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    Canonfire :: View topic - Criminal Elements of Greyhawk
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    Criminal Elements of Greyhawk
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:23 pm  
    Criminal Elements of Greyhawk

    While researching an article for the seaton postfest; thieves guilds.

    I came across a mention that roughly 1% of population is part of the criminal underworld. Given the rough numbers within CoG the writers followed this for the famous GH thieves guild (150 -250) members.

    Interesting some real life stats on criminal members places the "hard core" element at roughly .5 - 1% of society. Given seaton which I place within the large town - small city range the dedicated criminal element should be around 50.

    For my article I followed the outline of the Dyvers Assassin guild; giving only the core leadership which allows room to modify the guild membership to fit various campaigns. Although I also minized membership due to the highly lawful and sober reputation of the ruling noble.

    Just wondering; if the above stats fit with your perception of GH and how persuasive organized criminal guilds should be within GH?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
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    Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:02 am  

    Heavens no — but I'm playing AD&D®, where the presumption is that only about 1% of the population is classed anyway. My demographic numbers put thieves' guild membership at roughly .05% and assassins at roughly .01% (so, about 30 thieves and 6 assassins in a city of 60,000). I'm sure that's too conservative for some.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
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    Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:28 pm  

    In most cases if a place like the City of Greyhawk gave an estimation I would follow it, but if I felt it was to many individuals I would break it down to include contacts of the guild. These people wouldn't be actual thieves per say, but rather individuals who bring them information (either willingly or not so willingly). Greyhawk has a reputation to be known as the city of thieves, so therefore I would make it heavy as indicated in the boxed set.

    Now if were are discussing another community in which the guild exists but no specific data for number is provided, I would go with a much smaller amount similar to what DM Prata suggests. That way a place like the City of Greyhawk would have earned their reputation and it would stay that way (earned it in regards of numbers, keeping in mind that actions speak louder than numbers).
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:43 pm  

    I also think it's worth keeping in mind that all thieves in a guild don't need to be Thieves. Zero level humans (or commoners, if you're using 3e) can be among the ranks, as can members of other classes (fighters for brute force, magic users for arcane aid on a job, etc) as well as monsters. Humanoids that can easily disguise themselves to look sort of human/demi-human work best, but a quirky guild could have any variety of critters.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:32 pm  

    Good Point Wink

    Which is why I chose the "Dyvers Model" but I am interested in how big is the crime element in your version of GH.

    Early on I played in a 1930s style town where criminals were everywhere it seems given the population it made no sense. The DM loved thieves to soak up adventure wealth but given the small local population practically everyone had to be a bandit.

    We know Pomarj and large metropolis have more but even small towns have some, I am looking for some concensus on population numbers that seem realistic.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:47 am  

    Greyhawk is a city run by thieves, and the criminal element permeates most aspects of life in Greyhawk. I'd expect the criminal element to be very high there. The criminal element is much more than thieves though in the classic D&D sense. Extortion and bribery will be just as common as thievery is in the city, if not more so in certain locations/circumstances. Think of a crime and it will exist in Greyhawk. it is one of those very grey cities, with some dark elements as well as some light.

    I do portray Dyvers as a much darker place. There is not really a bigger percentage of criminals in Dyvers than there is in Greyhawk, just that the criminals there have much more power, and are much darker in what they deal in. There are good people in Dyvers but they are outnumbered by the bad people. Greyhawk however has more good people than bad people.

    To keep things a bit rougher, I'd estimate the criminal populace at 3-5%. This would be all types of criminals: thieves, murderers, professional assassins, thugs, snitches, gang bosses, forgers, fences, drug dealers, slavers, swindlers, politicians, etc. That doesn't include outlawed cults or anything of that nature. Such secret groups would be separate. With such a high percentage of folks being involved in some sort of criminal activity, it would be very likely that pc's would often end up dealing with either criminals directly, or with those who have influence with, or who are under the influence of, a criminal element. Everybody gets their piece of the pie one way or another. Sounds like Greyhawk to me.
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    Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:56 am  

    I agree with Cebrion. Shocked
    GHC is heavy with criminal types though those in the Guild are regulated by the Asst. Thieves Guildmasters for each quarter. I think since the Thieves 'control' the city that the 150-250 ACTIVE members quote is fair for it would fluctuate as supply and demand dictate. To keep a semblance of lawfulness to the other Oligarchs they would have to throw them a bone time to time and let some criminals be punished(particularly the ones who offend the higher echelon). This is where the rest of your Thieves Guild members are hiding: The Citadel's Prison.

    This massive place can hold at most 1600 people and usually contains 1000-1500 convicts (tAB pg. 81). Of course not all these convicts will be Guild members, for any citizen is prone to committing a crime even humble PCs, but it would be naive to suggest few of them are. To start conservative I'll say just 10% of the convicts are/were TG members. Now according to GHC's criminal code (tAB pg. 67), your most common major crimes committed by 'thieves' would be burglary and robbery. Both crimes can carry an average prison sentence of 1-8 years. Minor crimes such as smuggling, fencing, tresspassing (they weren't caught with loot in hand) or unlawful hindrance of business (shook down the wrong shop owner) can get you 2 weeks to 2 years in the Prison.
    This means a low figure of 100-150 more Guild thieves will be out in 4 years or less on average. I see no reason why a Guildmember would lose his status by being in Prison unless he was set up to fall.

    Finally there is a Workhouse in the Foreign quarter that holds about a 100 criminals too young to be put in population at the Citadel Prison. This is where all good Thieves must start out. ;)
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:41 am  

    IMC, I use three models for thieves:

    1) the bandit gang (whether in the country or city) - a rag tag group held together by a strongman or allied group,

    2) the Lanhkmar model,

    3) the Mob model.

    I haven't done much with the Mob model but its on a "to do" list. My default is Lankhmar style thieves guilds.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:47 am  

    Lankhmar is a good model. The city also has the right fantasy tone. My Greyhawk is very Lankhmar-ish, though the world is only patially Newhon-ish in feel. Newhon lies somewhere in between Greyhawk and the world of Conan, though leaning more towards Greyhawk I think. That is another series of books I really need to read again.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:23 pm  

    The first thing I would suggest is that the number be on a sliding scale. Large cities tend to attract the criminal element more than small towns, where you can't do much without the whole town knowing about it before the day ends. (Besides, it's hard to unload stolen items in a small town, when everyone knows who the thing really belongs to.)

    As others have pointed out, not all guild members need to be of the thief class. A guild might hire fighters for muscle, wizards to examine pilfered items, and priests (most likely of gods of thievery of course) to heal up thieves who get injured on the job (and let's not forget the Neutralize Poison spell in this regard). And of course, the nonclassed individuals who perform tasks for the guild.
    Think of a guild friendly tavern owner who has a secret door to the sewers in the back room of his tavern. A handful of those scattered around town would give the guild the ability to move around unseen quite nicely.

    Furthermore, a thieves guild may be involved in more areas of crime than just picking pockets and breaking into homes. There's gambling (if it's outlawed, they may run the whole show; if it's legal, they'll still likely have their hand in it somehow), prostitution, "protection" schemes, and more. A bit of research into real world organized crime can go a long way in this regard. In fact, I prefer to think of thieves guilds as being more like real world crime families than how they are made to seem in classic fantasy literature.

    One more thing to consider. There may be more than one guild operating in a city, especially a larger one. A city based campaign could be built around the conflict between two or more guilds operating within one city.

    Lastly, we should not forget, that not all thieves will be in a guild. There will always be independent thieves running around, despite the best efforts of the guild. However, if an indy thief becomes a thorn in the guild's side, they may discreetly work with the authorities to hang this irritant out to dry, so to speak.

    I hope this was helpful to some of you.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:39 pm  

    You might find the Ad&D 9515, Den of Thieves as a pdf for $4 -$5 useful since it really has a Greyhawk feel and it could save you some time reinventing the wheel.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:16 pm  

    Den of Thieves was really cool to use. I ran a rogue-centric campaign in Greyhawk City using that, but I had entirely forgot about it. It goes into the Guild management and all aspects of Guild activities. Definitely get that for the source material.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:37 am  

    If you use Den of Thieves that gives the Lord Mayor an unknown son in one of the city gangs (already has an unknown daughter (waitress)).
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:40 am  

    If you want to do somethign Mob styled you could also go the route of how Old New York's and even a lot of current gangs operate. With a city having several smaller rival gangs working against each other yet passing tithes up to a few larger gangs and then eventually to one or two larger gangs and thier political backer within the city structure.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:42 am  

    also see if you can find copies of the the old Gamlords game Thieves Guild. It was a great game with some really decent adventure hooks and info on guilds.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:47 am  

    Speaking of thief styled info, did anyone see this? http://paizo.com/store/sale/greenRonin/v5748btpy7eua&source=top
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:23 pm  

    I'll certainly second the recommendation of Den of Thieves. I've used bits of it and it's an underrated supplement; how often can you say that.

    Green Ronin's stuff is usually okay so I'd be interested to read a review from someone who's purchased Thieves Quarter. Was that really $2?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:30 pm  

    Yes it really was just $2 so I stocked up and ordered a bunch of supplements for myself for Christmas Sunday evening to tide me over while I scope out 4E. Great price but Paizo is a little slow with the shipping since they allow themselves quite a few days before having the shipping agent pick it up for delivery to the customer. I'll post a review after I see it since I have Den of Thieves to compare it to.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:56 am  

    Castlemike; looking forward to reading what you think of it. If it's good I'll try and pick it up on the cheap through Amazon over here.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:24 pm  

    Amazon is great and usually my first choice for individual items or a few new items.

    Paizo allows themselves quite a few days (Up to 9 or 10) before having the shipping agent pick them up for delivery. I ordered 21 (All in stock when I ordered)) for my Christmas present to myself. The order should be shipping cross country from their Washington warehouse down to Georgia so that will be a few more days. Rest assured it will be the first item I check out and I will post a review regarding it afterwards.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:35 pm  

    Bummer the Paizo sale was so popular 4 items were cut from my order including the Den of Thieves I was looking forward to. Sorry no review.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:08 am  

    The 2E Complete Thieves Handbook has a section on generating a thieves guild. One of the example NPCs is the head of the thieves guild of Gryrax.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:37 pm  

    Thanael wrote:
    The 2E Complete Thieves Handbook has a section on generating a thieves guild. One of the example NPCs is the head of the thieves guild of Gryrax.


    -I think another was a fence in the (pre-conquest Sea Princes, IIRC).

    IIRC (I don't have it on me), between 0.5-1.5% of the population were "Thieves" (3.5 Edition "Rogues"), although many of them would not be part of organized crime, and some of them are not even criminal types (scouts or investigators- the module "Bastion of Faith" had "Thieves" that actually worked for the Temple of Heironeous).
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