In light of the WOTC 4th edition article on magic items (if you haven't seen it and are interested, go to the 4th edition topic threads here on Canonfire) I decided to find out what other folks think is an appropriate amount of magic both in quantity and quality at various levels. I thought it would be interesting to compare. How much magic do you think a character should have (or how much does your character have) say at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20? _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Character progress IMC is about 1/3rd of that suggested in the DMG so I tend to hand out the same proportion of treasure against the amount listed on one of the tables in the DMG (I forget the page number and the book's not to hand).
The characters tend to have the same wealth level as listed in the DMG so will have a proportion of that as magic items. As a rough guide, and using weapons as a simple example, I would expect martial characters to have a +1 weapon at 1st-8th level, a +2 at 9th-13th and +3 at 14th and above. Higher bonus weapons are unlikely and liable to be referred to as "legendary".
That's incredibly simplistic I know, and some might consider it a trifle stingy, but I like the campaign to be about the characters and how they react and relate to other characters and their surroundings, not what items they are carrying.
I completely agree with what you said on the other thread, Eileen. There are few things more irritating than the great magic item upgrade fire sale. We've all been there in the past, but not any more.
It is an excellent question. I always believed that Greyhawk was a world filled with magic, but a magic well outside of the "normal" man's means. What commoner coudl afford the price of a potion let alone a +1 long sword? And magic to make the lives of the common people easier--no way. Much more divine magic for the population, but arcane is reserved for the wealthy or the powerful. At fifth level, maybe a +1 magic sword (common military weaponry) and magic armor. Maybe a wand, potions yes...but nothing extraordinary.
I feel pretty much the same about the level of magic in Greyhawk as does Jaxquite. Adventurers in most campaigns will tend to skew the measure of magic, as they can create it themselves and they also come into contact with other "adventurer class" individuals who they capture even more magic items from. Adventurers will be walking around with all kinds of stuff that the average citizen will never have, or probably even see.
I also agree with Jaxquite's views on divine and arcane magic. It is easy for the unwashed masses to turn to a higher power for aid, while few of them can afford the cost of being trained in arcane magic. Even still, there are not a lot of "true believers" who have been chosen as a vessel for any god's power. There are plenty of lay clergy, but not a lot of clergy who actually cast spells. People still die from curable ailments and accidents all of the time because there simply aren't enough divine casters to prevent it, and that is because they are rare too(though not as rare as arcane casters). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I haven't had problems in my D&D game for years because as one gets better at DMing, you learn how to manage game balance problems. Of all the difficulties though, magic items and gold were the biggest.
I inheritied my very first group of players when I started high school. The players came from my older brothers campaign (he wanted to dump the players on someone and I was always his dumping ground). I was afraid to ask the players to start new characters (which is what I wanted to do) so I ended up inheriting their 9th level characters who had already been given +5 everything. Don't miss those days.
I eventually went through the various stages of DMing, monty haul, being to stingy, to many uneeded house rules, playing straight by the rules, etc. until I finally reached a level of DMing that was good for me. Fortunetely, these problems are long gone.
In my campaign, I don't really worry about it if people are levels 1-5 and don't have any magic items, and those that do, would typically have a +1 armor/weapon around level 4-6, and this would carry over until about 8-10th level. Around level 10 I start handing out +2 items, level 13-15 +3 items, and from there I haven't had to deal with it. There are expections to this rule, for example, I have +3 mithral chain shirt, which started out as +1 armor and I added enhancements to it (I'm 11th level). My best weapon is a +1 dagger and I don't have a magic shield. The best AC in the group is the paladin (11th level) with a AC 28, I have a AC of 21, the wizard (also 11th level) is right below me with a 20.
As far as quantity of magic items (I don't really count potions and scrolls since they are disposable . Currenly I shoot for the approximate:
Level 5: 1-2 items
Level 10: 4-6 main items, and a couple of items which they don't carry around with them, such as a +1 tome of this or that.
Level 15: Haven't had to deal with it, but I'd say 6-8 items.
Level 20: Haven't really had to deal with it.
I use a lot of modules in the current campaign and tie them together to form one large story arc. I do this mainly because I want to relive some old days, plus my group hasn't played many of them. I also own a lot of modules and want to get some use out of them. Most of the modules we have played are 1st edition. As I am preparing the adventure I go through it and check to see if the treasure listed is possible under the current rules for treasure based on challenge rating. If there is to much gold or magic I remove some. If it fits (usually it does but is on the higher end of the current treasure rules) I keep it so as to preserve the module. If I have to downgrade the monsters I'll downgrade the treasure. I try and include the same magic items the module came with if it fits the current rules. If an item is no longer in the game, I simply remove it.
This system gives out a lot of treasure because of the generosity of the modules. Most of the money is spent on teleporting (we are always in over our head or on a deadline of some kind). A reasonable amount is given to the church. Another portion is given to the church to have the item blessed and purified by the character's religion. The remainder is spent on fixing up dead characters and improving their magic item status. By the time it is all over with, there isn't always that much left. Now their talking strongholds as well.
One rule I did add is for upgrades....I haven't had to use it yet but eventually I will. When someone upgrades a magic item say from a +1 to a +2, according to the current rules, they only have to pay for the +2 item and subtract the value of the +1. This rule I'm erasing. I think it makes upgrades to easy and cheap. An upgrade needs to be one plus at a time (no going from +1 to +3) and they have to pay for the entire item as they are upgrading to, I don't subtract the items previous value from the total. For example, somone taking a +2 blade and making it a +3 would pay the full +3 blade price, not one that is modified for the previous +2 enhancement.
If a wizard wants to make an item with more than a +1 bonus that's fine. I decided that once the item is completed in craftsmanship and magic enhancement it is finished and only after that does the above rule apply when you want to modify it's original enchantment. Keeps the cost really high and makes players think twice about whether they want to spend the money or not. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
I default and use suggested wealth by level DMG page 135 and NPC demographics so no magic stores or lots of high level casters at the PCs beck and call. IMO the lower level games are more fun 2 - 6.
One of the PCs taking Craft Wondrous Item feat can do an awful lot for a party since PCs don't normally level up perfectly. Making desired items and upgrading treasure items.
Would probably enjoy playing in one of your games because it sounds like it would be fun, balanced and rules consistent. DMing is rewarding but quite a bit more work but it idoes have it's moments randomly rolling those dice and asking the players exactly how they are arranged or informing the player he thought he saw something out of the corner of his eye.
First, I tend to keep the amount of magic available in the campaign overall on the light side; about half as much as the DMG would suggest. Many places just don't have magic items or major spell-casters. Others, like Greyhawk City, Iuz's Empire, and most of the major capitals have more magic, although hardly the "magic stores" one would see in other settings. For PCs, I generally give "charged" items (potions, scrolls, wands, etc.) and one-use items up to 5th-7th level, with only a couple of more permanent items. After 5th, I start handing out more permanent items, around +1, and ensure that everybody has 1-3 items by 10th-12th, Beyond 10th, items start to get more powerful, +2 or +3, though not necessarily more plentiful, though this depends on the adventure (in one, my PCs managed to get enough +1 weapons to outfit a small town's militia!). At 15th and up, I start handing out potent items, +4 and better, including minor artifacts or other unique items. At 20th and beyond, we start to get into very powerful items, maybe a major artifact. I've not yet run a game into epic levels... Generally, I have my PCs level a bit slower than 3.5 calls for, and am stingy on magic items, and they can't just buy and sell items, except in very special circumstances. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
I have no big problems with the suggested wealth levels for PCs and NPCs. Just note that not all the wealth needs/should be put in magic items! A manor, a rented flat, cash money, etc. all can bind lots of wealth nicely.
Last edited by Thanael on Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
I've got to agree with Thanael. I've never had an issue with magic item and wealth levels. Taking an item away is all too easy. A conviently placed thief or rust monster, at higher levels you have disjunction, etc. Besides, I personally reward with non-monetary means money spent on followers, keeps, etc. Besides, players rarely have enough to get exactly what they want unless I put in something that is just perfect for them. I like to maximize feat choices and use temporary items for the very reason that I DON'T want to give players the very uber weapon I am using against them. That's happened once, and it was BAD mojo. (A great axe with a 19-20 crit range, x4 mod, with a +1 (non magical)enhancement to hit and damage). Now I only put items in I intend for the players to have. But I don't really squirm at any power the players have, because I ALWAYS have more, and I can simply take it away. I have, as a player, given away a powerful item to a NPC so that favors could be traded which meant more than the weapon itself, and generally my players see that value too. Generally anyway
Taking an item away is all too easy. A conviently placed thief or rust monster, at higher levels you have disjunction, etc.
I've always felt if you give the PCs a reward, you shouldn't take it away. If I don't want the group to have something, I don't give it to them in the first place. I agree, however, with giving out other rewards, some that can't be measured in gold pieces.[/quote] _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
I got frustrated with magic item-dependent players once and tried a variant: no magic at all except spells, scrolls, and potions. I multiplied the price of scrolls by 3 and the price of potions by 5. This, of course, was back in the old 2e days.
The players balked at first, but soon joined in with gusto (when I challenged them by suggesting maybe they weren't very good players if they couldn't handle a fight without their precious magic items).
Long story short: It was a short but thoroughly enjoyable campaign. Both I and the players grew a lot in skill, and a good time was had by all. You should try it sometime.
Now I stick pretty close to Eileen's standards as described above. I guess that puts me on the stingy side. IMO, the standards in the 3.5e DMG are too generous, especially at higher levels.
Another thing that I note is that I never hear people talk about equipment being lost to failed item saving throws all that much any more. Maybe its just overlooked among the rules because there is no all-encompassing and handy chart for making character's items go *POOF!* anymore. I know I myself am guilty of forgetting to roll item saving thows for the pc's now and again, but I doubt I'm the only one.
Does anybody else recall the the following, or similar, adages?
Player(regarding item saving throws and one-shot magic items like potions/scrolls): "Use it before you lose it."
DM (semi-jokingly to a player who's character just failed a saving thow vs. a lightning bolt): "All your items are gone!"
No, I've never had much of a problem with oversaturation of magic items in particular. I expect nobody else would either if they remembered to roll those good old item saving throws. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Little Eileen has been a victim of the failed saving throw, there goes my equipment syndrome. She also has a knack for losing magical swords in spider webs, the underground river in Forge of Fury as well as in the river within the Ravenloft module. Forgetting this game mechanic hasn't been a problem in our game. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
The campaign I run is squeezed into short gaming sessions, so I have players well equipped for constant challenges =/> their level. The loot is more akin to the wealth acquired in a video game like Neverwinter Nights. Given how poorly the players seem to roll at times, this doesn't seem to give them a massive advantage. Like Cebrion stated, I could always zap some of the items during battle or with a trap. Sometimes the old "opposite alignment" or "sized for a female dwarf" trick gets pulled too, sending loot directly to the "unfavorable" merchant.
Besides, as the DM I enjoy making villains with uber gear...
I've got 9 PC's and try to make sure they keep an equal level of magic items between themselves... and whatever they have, villains always have more of.
Half drank potions, wands w/ less than ten charges left.... those are pretty common
I do not worry about the suggested wealth by level in the DMG. I place whatever seems like it would fit for the enemies involved. Thus, wealth tends to come in lumps, whereby several game sessions will go by with next to nothing then in a session they will gain a lot of wealth. Characters can buy and sell magic items. Pretty much every town will have potion mongers and scroll scribes. Large cities like Dyvers or Rel Astra may have some actual magic shops whereby the cheaper magic items can be bought/sold. Merchant caravans are the most common purveyors of magical items, and most will have some trinkets for sale. Auctions for more powerful magical items happen from time to time, similar to the Gord novels. Many transactions do not involve an actual merchant, but rather, are directly sold from the owner (say a minor noble down on his luck) to the purchaser (i.e. PCs). Having connections and use of Gather Info are of extreme importantance. Additionally, lots of wealth is often blown on throwing parties, making connections, impressing folks, investing in business ventures, etc.
Just remember to use the items - in several adventures the treasure consists of items stored in neat little chest just waiting for the PCs.
Curiously the monsters with intelligence never barter or used them for themselves. Why would an ogre keep a scroll or wand instead of trading it for something useful doesn't require genius intelligence.
In 17 years my pcs have amassed far more magic than they know what to do with and that is with me editing out most magical stuff. I preferred to tailor create items and allow them to upgrade them to avoid a monty haul attitude.
I have no major issue with scrolls and potions (although I was a fan of the something along the lines of the old miscibility rules to prevent people drinking multiple potions at once - applying a simple constitution penalty is probably better than rolling to see if you die in an explosion or gain a permananent ability though!) but other items can become annoying.
One option might be to use action points in 4e. In Heroquest type games any gear you find only lasts until the end of that adventure unless you spend a hero point to 'cement' it to your pc. I don't know if it would work mechanically but potions can lose efficacy over time, ink or magical power on scrolls may fade, magical items may crumble like drow artifacts when removed from an enclosed environment in a dungeon. Annoying for pcs used to the old style perhaps but I'm seriously considering it.
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