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    Canonfire :: View topic - Population levels in Greyhawk
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    Population levels in Greyhawk
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:12 am  
    Population levels in Greyhawk

    I've just finished my home made gazeteer of Furyondy adjusted using the Marklands, LG Gazeteer, and online information for the LG campaign.

    I've upgraded the population levels from the LG gazeteer (350,000+ to 1,481,800) but I'm having trouble getting the numbers to add up.

    The cities and towns have quite low population density, which leaves massive numbers in the rural population. Given that 4e edition is moving towards the points of light scenario, I wondered what I should do.

    Problems I have are that, for example, I have trouble working out where to fit 90,000 peasants in the war-torn Barony of Kalinstren. I suppose you can put in small thorps and farmsteads every few miles but how many would it take to make up the numbers? Too many methinks.

    Next problem is the massive increase in demi-human population brought about in 3e. According to LG gazeteer, at 9% of the population there are 133,000 elves in Furyondy, some 80,000 wood elves, and 53,000 high elves. There are only 19,000 wood elves in the Vesve Forest and Highvale so the population levels in Furyondy are ludicrous unless you just incorporate the wood elf population (and everybody else) with the rural population (so wood elves growing crops in the fields).

    It's looking pretty clear that the population should be 481,800, and that the extra 1,000,000 was tacked on by mistake in the LG gazeteer and carried forward without any real thought.

    However, even with the reduced population figires, 26,000 wood elves in a realm with no major forests is still way too high isn't it?

    Greyhawk isn't Star Trek. The humans and demi-humans do not form a cohesive unit and I have no problem with segregation, xenophobia, and even a bit of unhealthy racism. Am I being racist to want to keep any large congregation of wood elves in the elven realms (Ulek, Celene, Sunndi) or the forests? Should I return to the 1e demi-human levels and if so, what is the best way to (re)interpret the figures?
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:35 am  

    I say do it your way and ignore what everyone else has done. Your way makes more sense, and the published figures contradict other published figures anyway. Not to mention the ongoing debate over GH's population figures anyway...

    My believe is that the lower figures fit better. Go with 'em.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:23 am  

    I'm sure there was a rationale in raising Furyondy's population, maybe to keep in stride with Keoland and Nyrond. I dunno. I've been in many a greychat where population density was argued for things of an extreme simulationist purpose. Things like agriculture. But then as you say, throw in the 3e demographic system and that certainly screws you with demihumans, yup. Most demihuman populations should be hidden and not included on a national census unless you're talking Celene.
    And I'm glad you mentioned Points of Light because this is another case why I am on the side that believes Greyhawk isn't right for this theme, maybe pre-LGG figures yes but even then the mid Flanaess is too well developed to be PoL, it should be more like 'Encircling Darkness'.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:50 am  

    One more thing:
    The lower figures also work better when calculating armies IMO. In the 83 guide it says Furyondy can raise 20,000 troops in an emergency, so with a pop of 350,000 thats about 5% of the population.
    The LGG population of 1,418,800 at the same rate would create a war-time (which is all the time) army of nearly 71,000!
    Markland's troops totals (sans Veluna) is somewhere in the neighborhood of 27-28,000 troops which is pretty spot on for the 83 guide it was written from. Can Iuz compete with 71k troops plus knights, plus Veluna, Vesve and Shield Lands contigents? The lower populations give you more a desperate situation.

    A compromise could be that alot of Furyondy's population has fled Iuz's advances and migrated to Veluna, Dyvers and Verbobonc. Greyhawk City got its share bewteen editions afterall.
    GreySage

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:51 am  

    Even with the LGG figures, the population of the Flanaess is tiny compared to that of Europe during the Middle Ages. I think it's true that they failed to increase the urban populations at a rate proportionate to that of the national populations, and I agree that the demihuman populations are unreasonable. Mortellan's point about armies also seems valid.

    I don't believe that the mid-Flanaess, as portrayed in the official materials, is well-developed. For the most part, it's a wild region haunted with monsters and bandits. Otherwise there'd be few random encounters, and no need to hire PCs to guard merchant caravans. The Flanmi River region is generally cleared of monsters, but the central Flanaess seems pretty dangerous.

    Points of Light doesn't match Greyhawk because it postulates a world where humans aren't the dominant race, where nonhumans and humans are completely integrated, and where there are no great human nations.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:53 am  

    A hex can have several villages even though one village or city is shown.

    The rise of population does make sense of the humanoid numbers and the rationale of driving them to the borders - If half the country is empty; why haven't the humanoids moved in?

    You are right about the demihumans; the demihumans should have been left as hints within the entry. Population figures should have been hidden or radically raised the population in the demihuman nations. Especially given the numbers in the larger nations. I can't believe their are more halfling cooks in Ahlissa then elves in Celene.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:37 pm  

    The world of Greyhawk is amazingly unurbanized. The Sheldomar Valley is a massive area and it has fewer major towns and cities than England did in the 12th century, much less Flanders or Italy.

    The villages could be scattered all over the place. Again, think of England. Its only 12 30 mile hexes from top to bottom roughly and maybe 11 wide at the widest (often less). And it has how many cities? ANd villages are rarely more than a day or two's walk from each other (meaning about 1/3 of a hex). So a given 30 mile hex probably can reasonably have a town/city of 5k and half a dozen to a dozen villages of several hundred with their surrounding hamlets and such if you want a medieval style population density. And there's still the dank forests, fell bogs, and creepy hills to put monsters in.

    But you probably want to go somewhat less than this in any area you want to be suitable for traditional dungeon crawling. But even with the LGG population figures, you can have a pretty good amount of 'wilds' in all the major areas.

    Personally, I'm not sure there is much value in calculating population figures since there is no 'levee en masse' in GH (unless the DM wants to introduce it). In the real world, that was pretty much a Napoleonic era development. I'd just et my local areas up as I felt suited my vision for them, rather than try to fit some arbitrary number in. But whatever works for you, naturally.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:05 am  

    Ok, so everybody seems to agree with the demi-human question. Human populations are more problematic. I have no issue with populations being lower than medieval times - we have no reason to suppose that Oerth humans are as fertile as real world humans and it is possible that the gods deliberately keep the population low.

    I think I agree that small settlements are every few miles per hex but would probably go with thorps (pop 20-80) or farmsteads (pop3-30) but we also have to allow areas for grazing and crops, so that density will not be universally true.

    I thinks that away from established trade routes, rivers, primary and secondary roads, the number of settlements would drop significantly and lend itself to more of a PoL scenario - although wild dogs might be the scariest thing in Furyondy's 'wilderness'. Much of the Furyondian landscape might be grassland - I'll review the text and see what I've got to work with.

    Overall, return to 1e demi-human levels and re-examine human population distribution. Groovy.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:56 am  

    @PaulN6, I've send you a PM.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:46 am  

    It is OK for population levels to be low in Furyondy. One needs to consider that they were quite literally brought to the brink of destruction in the Greyhawk wars. Their capitol was besieged and nearly taken, vast stretches of land were overrun, and the kingdom's youth and coffers were bled dry in defense of the land. Sounds like a very good reason for low population numbers in Furyondy to me. However, there are also the Shield Lands, and to a much lesser extent the Bissel factors of refugees who fled to Furyondy. You can use them as an excuse to raise the population levels just a bit, but you could also just as easily say that many of these refugees were victims of the war as well. It is just a matter of what you want to accomplish with your numbers. Also, I wouldn't let 4e influence your plans either. After all, its not like 4e will be catering to Greyhawk anyways. The world is your own.

    Also, small town or villages would be scattered through most of the land, particularly along the rivers and shores of the Nyr Dyv and a few on the Whyestil. There are surely many smaller streams and tributaries that connect to the main rivers in the land too, but these just don't show up on a map where 1/4" = 30 miles. Add water wells to the equation and the communities can be located all over the place. Every hex along a major waterway ought to have at least a small village located within it, with other villages generally becoming fewer and smaller the farther inland they are.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:05 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Also, small town or villages would be scattered through most of the land, particularly along the rivers and shores of the Nyr Dyv and a few on the Whyestil. There are surely many smaller streams and tributaries that connect to the main rivers in the land too, but these just don't show up on a map where 1/4" = 30 miles. Add water wells to the equation and the communities can be located all over the place. Every hex along a major waterway ought to have at least a small village located within it, with other villages generally becoming fewer and smaller the farther inland they are.


    All good points. It's my position that all major villages are already shown so all other settlements are going to be smaller. I was hoping to get confirmation from the LG triads about any new settlements that have featured in LG adventures but I've had limited success.

    I'll see how I get on tonight.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:57 am  

    Keep us updated. I myself wouldn't mind seeing an article summarizing the locations of a good portion of the villages of Furyondy, with a map if possible. Every gamer has a Kender's love of maps, if nothing else.

    Now I just need to convince Anna to do sections 44 and 46. Happy
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:52 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Quote:
    Also, I wouldn't let 4e influence your plans either. After all, its not like 4e will be catering to Greyhawk anyways. The world is your own.


    As mentioned, 4th edition need not be a factor for how one populates Greyhawk. If your adapting Greyhawk to 4th edition rules, I think it would be best to wait until they system is out and then attempt to work with it. If you are opting for the Points of Light and are trying to get a jump on things before the rules are in your hands then I think your best option is limit the populations along the northern border considerably and cluster them closer towards the larger established areas already on the map, placing an emphasis on the Att River and the Nyr Dyv. I would then thin things out as your maps creep north, then west, and to a lesser degree south. The reason I suggest to a lesser degree south is because the maps already show several population areas bordering the Dyvers area, plus it being such a large city it is likely to draw several lesser communities from across the river on the Furyondy side. The reason I suggest thinning to the west is to give the idea that every country has a tough time maintaining borders and eliminate the border to border community look I suspect would not be part of the Points of Light concept.

    If 4th edition isn't your thing, then I would ignore the Points of Light all together. If its an idea you like for Greyhawk and you don't intend to use the rules, I refer you, once again to above.

    Cebrion said:
    Quote:
    Also, small town or villages would be scattered through most of the land, particularly along the rivers and shores of the Nyr Dyv and a few on the Whyestil. There are surely many smaller streams and tributaries that connect to the main rivers in the land too, but these just don't show up on a map where 1/4" = 30 miles. Add water wells to the equation and the communities can be located all over the place. Every hex along a major waterway ought to have at least a small village located within it, with other villages generally becoming fewer and smaller the farther inland they are.


    When I map out areas of Greyhawk I pretty much use up a full sheet of paper for each hex appearing on the Greyhawk maps. I use campaign cartographer. When I place populations within, I never exceed the community size already listed in the Greyhawk Gazetteer. I figure TSR/WOTC/Paizo already gave us the primary areas so anything I add is considerably smaller, being nothing more than a village and often smaller. I do exactly what Cebrion mentions above. I add many smaller rivers and streams and place most of the populations along these as well as the already existing waterways already appearing on the maps. Within the plains, the largest open areas are community grazing lands (more or less) with a few very small communities clustered together, then I leave it open again for a ways, cluster again, and so on. I make it within riding distance of day from one community to the next for the most part. I also leave an occasional stand alone community because they would access their own water source by wells.

    I also add a lot of small wooded and hill areas on my maps and give them lesser names. They are to small to bother appearing on the large scale maps. If it is a mining area for example, I'll place a few small communities in the area. If it is woods, I tend to deplete the population as I get closer to it. I try and put a spin on each of these areas in regards to encounters and the name they received. I make mention of this because it may be of some help with your Points of Light idea.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:33 am  

    Wow - useful stuff guys. I knew I'd get some decent advice on this board!

    I lack the time or the imagination to be so detailed I'm embarassed to say. I'm just collating from all available sources at the moment. I think I'll just adjust the population for now and revisit Furyondy once Anna has mapped the area Happy

    As for 4e PoL, it's not my intention to make any major adjustments. I think 1e Greyhawk was closer in concept to this than 3e LG so am just going back to it for inspiration. I'll reduce the number of wizards and priests to make room for new 4e classes and adjust most of the nations' leaders to warlords instead of fighters. Who knows, maybe I'll even make Belissica a 16th level fighter again - since she's dead in LG anyway, who cares? I'm toying with the notion of introducing something akin to demi-human class level limits (for my npcs at least) depending on how multiclassing works. I'm not keen on the notion of 18th level dwarf wizards in Greyhawk... call me a purist...
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:09 pm  

    Just because dwarves *can* be wizards doesn't mean that many are or that any of them are particularly powerful. Same goes for anything else. The PC classes are just that...classes for PCs. They are given skills and abilities to reflect a life of adventuring. NPCs don't need to follow the same rules and, frankly, shouldn't.


    Oh, a minor note regarding population levels: medieval style cities are usually extremely small in land area. Its expensive to build walls and stuff, so folks are crammed into as small an area as possible. It takes me 90 minutes to walk to work, as I learned during a 3 month long bus strike a few years back. If I walked that long in one direction in a medieval city, I'd be half and hour to an hour out of town. Most cities of 5 or 10k are only a couple miles across, if that. There are exceptions, but the suburbs and sprawl we are all used to just don't exist.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:57 pm  

    I am working on a series of article on the Dramidj Islands; done most and I would like input. I used the LGG pop - higher level but still IMO low city pop.

    It is workable for the other chains - Janasibs is a problem.
    Information available - 5 cities (small islands)
    Total pop. placing at 178,000 - comparable to Sea Barons
    Yet the largest Ekbir & Zeif are 30 - 40 thousand

    Opinions; large cities or the LGG method of low city and don't worry about the difference. - out there somewhere.

    Thoughts Anyone ??
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:49 pm  

    I'm not quite sure what your question is? You are wondering if the Janasibs should have large cities or not? I don't think so. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to form large cities there, unless they are a major source of some trade good. Smaller cities in the 5 or 10k range should be fine. The population given for those islands is 200k? That seems a bit high, personally.

    Regardless, I'd go with small cities and lots of fishing and farming villages.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:50 pm  

    No poulation numbers given at all - Its a just a number;

    Ataphads 63,000
    Yif Qayah - Bureis 81,000
    Janasibs 178,000

    I was going to put the Janasibs at 78,000 but the more learned, I felt it should be higher.
    - Strong fortifications
    - Large Shipyard
    - Corsair Fleet
    - Possible alliance with Komal
    - Worried Zeif so much it was occupied

    Rather then see the chain as another struggling small island chain; I began imagining the chain as the Sea Barons of the west or the Taiwan of the basin and I don't see 78,000 as large enough to be noticed by the million plus mainland nations; let alone approached for an alliance or occupied.

    I will rethink the population numbers; I am not wedded to them - Thanks for the feedback

    All comments welcome
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:33 am  

    Well, I haven't studied the area extensively. It just doesn't look like that much land on my map.

    If it has strategic location, strong fortresses, and an importance to trade it would doubtless get noticed even with a much smaller population. But those things could also make it support a rather larger population, too.

    How big are the Janasibs in land area?
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:25 am  

    I am going to refer back to 1e populaton levels for guidance but I'm hoping that I won't have to adjust too much. I don't think there was much info on the islands though. Population does seem quite high for the area of land without any large cities.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:21 pm  

    I have been going back over the info - It does say the Janasibs are well populated but they are very small in actual area. I think I will go back to my original figure of 78,000.

    Larger pop for Zirat and smaller for the other isles Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:58 am  

    Had a quick glance at some opf the other entries I've done - all populations went up but I've yet to come across one that got such a huge hike as Furyondy. I'll cross reference tonight but I think the other population figures might be ok - especially if you consider that only humans were taken into account in 1e population figures.

    Halving the demi-human percentages from 3e seems like a good start, unless there is an area of noted demi-human population (forests, hills, mountains) in which case I'll need to check the figures. I may even quarter them.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:02 am  

    Hey all, my two pence worth and something one may wish to consider as well.

    Ehm...certain religions wish to propagate and populate there worshipping base (much like the Roman Catholics were encouraged to have large families during the middle ages...even now). With this idea, you could apply this propaganda to, say, Pelor or Cuthbert or even Iuz, the exact opposite can be applied to stunt a population should the religion believe in birth control, sacrifice, etc.... This concept could increase or decrease population numbers (in conjunction with sexual or communal disease, which can further curve a growth).

    Naughty!! Happy

    Value of life by certain cultures /societies also can impact a population base. A “good” life loving society “may” endorse “free love” and large families; where as an “evil” society may live by the creed of “survival of the fittest”; or vice versa, it all depends on how you decide to regulate it, explain it for your campaign world.

    As already stated, it’s your campaign, populated as you see fit, try and use some GH canon to assist in the historical impact of wars, famine, plague, etc..., but it’s all up to you. The more research and plausible explanation you provide, the more “real”, PCs can relate to it and make it more involved.

    Baseline, if you’re doing population, there is a large number of factors to be considered, with only a few mentioned here. It all depends on how much work one wants to do for it.

    Cheers Happy

    AncientGamer Cool aka BusterBudd
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    Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:28 pm  

    The problem with pop levels in GH goes way back to the 83 boxed set (or even folio) and, unfortunately, to a trained historian it sort of rankles in a way that makes "suspension of disbelief" that much harder. I've fixed it in my campaign, but every DM must do his work depending on his vision of the world.

    In the 83 Box, GH hadn't been ravaged by the Wars and the pop was already way off, by a factor of at least 2,5 or 3, and even the, assuming the lowest limits of pop density for medieval Europe. This of course fluctuated, but at the very least we should think of GH as the equivalent of the 1200's. The low range of pop density at the time would have been c. 20-25 per square mile. For a regular hex in the Darlene map, 30 miles across, with roughly 780sq/mi per hex, this means that a hex supports around 15.000-19.000 or so.... and this would be the equivalent of the most low-density, almost unpopulated areas of Europe (where density ranged from 20 to around 100 people per sq/mi).

    Take the Wild Coast (where much of my campaign went): even at this low density, it should support 400.000-500.000 people, depending on how you count some hexes, and the Gazeteer states 150.000.

    Another thing is, I live in Portugal, which was never a very rich or densely populated country in medieval Europe.... buy a tourist guide, pick any piece of the map which is the size of a GH hex, and you'll find pretty much: about 50 or so small villages or towns which ALREADY existed back in the 1300's, 7-20 castles or keeps, and at the very least 50-80 major churches, not to mention the cities.

    To say that GH is underpopulated, as described in official products, is the understatement of the century, and doesn't really make much sense. There is an article somewhere on the web (Cumberland Games??) called Medieval demographics made easy or so which has a good intro to the problem.
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    Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:38 am  

    Samwise had a Canonfire article where he attemted to explain the Sheldomar's low population figures: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=751

    A few other ways to explain the low population figures in the Flanaess include:

    1. The Red Death of 576 (Fate of Istus) lower the population significantly;
    2. The figures may only represent heads of households;
    3. Some nations have better census departments than others, & not all of them take their censuses (censi?) at the same intervals, or even at all (leaving scholars to do the estimating).

    One thing that really annoys me are the massively high figures for half elves. Two cultures so different would be unlikely to intermix so often. Two easy ways to explain this:

    1. In most nations, "half elf" merely refers to someone with elven blood in the ancestry, not necessarily a parent. Therefore, most "half-elves" really only have 1/4, 1/8/ 1/16, etc elven blood, and statistically would be the same as humans.

    2. Many male elves, once achieving the age of majority, have a tendency to go out into the world & sow their wild oats (we see some hints of this with Melf's encounter with a serving wench in Artifact of Evil--though he doesn't follow through, he certainly has the opportunity & desire). Older elves really don't do much to discourage this, as they realize their race is not as fecund as humans, so improving the human gene pool is one way to keep the elven strain alive, albeit a weaker strain.

    Of course, human males could also try#2, but given the relatively lower elf breeding population, this would be far more likely to create racial conflict. Such interbreeding may have possibly led to war before--note that Dahlvier's castle stands on the ruins of an elven city razed by Oeridians over 900 years ago (Iuz the Evil).
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    Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:58 pm  

    I don't buy the Red Death thing. Population pretty much comes back to its previous level pretty fast, in a generation, unless the disease lingers around with regular outbreaks (as happened with the Plague in the 1350's and later).

    I am much more convinced with the "pop represents households rather than actual inhabitants" which would actually be a very "realistic medieval" way to do it, but then you run into the opposite problem, some areas become unrealistically populated. I think.... it depends on what the density you want it to be.

    3 is of course the way to go. DMs... err... "census scholars" do the math and apply it when needed.

    As for half elves, I am with you on 1), they can be from 1/2 to 1/8 elf. I even do some tailoring myself, toying with the actual percentages of charm resistance and so on re. how close to the original elven blood they are.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:55 am  

    To a certain extent I agree. However, the 83 boxed set referred only to human populations and some of them are extremely low. If you add on demi-humans, humanoids, and monster populations you would get higher total figures.

    Nevertheless, we don't have to assume that the birth rate for Oerth equates to Earth; smoke powder doesn't work after all! Low human population makes it easier to adopt the new PoL philosphy in my view so it's easier to go back to those figures.

    I've divided most of the 3e LG populations by 3 unless the 83 set had large populations of demi-humans listed in which case I've been more careful. Celene's population figures had changed drastically. Free cities I've divided population by 50% and some by 25%. Most of the nomad figures hadn't really changed. Furyondy and Keoland I just knocked off a million people, which means Furyondy has lost just over 68% (to account for the war) and Keoland has lost only 44% (to account for significant demi-human population).

    What I've ended up with is populations that are slightly higher than the 83 set. I'm going to tweak some of the descriptions to make even the civilised lands more PoL when 4e comes out but for now I think I'm happy with these figures.

    I think random encounter tables may also help with the PoL theme.
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    Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:41 am  

    I have the new Gazeteer, but I don't really use it. I have it because I collect all GH stuff in any case. But in my GH there were no Wars. I started playing it in 84, and although I bought From The Ashes, and although I had a minor Wars event, my personal GH has moved in a somewhat different direction, so I don't use any of those figures. I am still working primarily with the 83 Box and using later material as a source of inspiration.

    Since I don't use 3ed (yes, I am one of those irritating grognards that still use a houseruled set of AD&D 1st rules), I don't really plan on buying 4th. By PoL I assume you're referring to whatever the "Points of Light" thing is?

    In my personal campaign I basically readjusted all the pop levels, roughly by multiplying by 2 or 3, and not worrying about demi-humans (ie. keeping them separate from the human pop). Remember that due to the magnitude of difference, even multiplying by 3 brings the population to the lower levels of actual medieval population densities.

    My one main sadness is that I couldn't start an RPGA group, so as to have access to the GH adventures from there. But starting a 3ed campaign was too much of a hassle and I was pissed that WotC didn't provide any means for players of older editions to have access to that material.

    The article I mentioned is here (and well worth reading). It coincides with a lot of my thinking on this subject (I have a degree in Medieval History).

    http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
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    Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:08 am  

    If I'm honest, I've always preferred to think of Greyhawk as a more dangerous place than was originally portrayed in the 83 set. I didn't like the way the writers picked on the Flan nations in From the Ashes but I liked the notion of things becoming more dangerous.

    Points of Light makes it even more dangerous for the common folk just to exist and I like that thematically, although obviously some nations are safer than others. Upping humanoid populations means you can reduce human populations and still have the same density... although I think I'd prefer to stick to the 83 sets unrealisitic levels of habitation and leave the rest of the Flanaess to the wolves.
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    Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:25 am  

    I've always thought of the Flanaess as containing a mix of dangerous and less dangerous areas. The central Flanaess, Keoland and parts of the Eastern Flanaess being civilized and (moderately) safe allows for a more conventional medieval setting, rather than the Conan-like "kindoms lost in the wilderness" that has taken over WotC's design in this Points of Light thing, whatever it is.

    I am a medievalist, and both me and my players have always enjoyed a mix of dungeon-crawling and missions in dangerous areas, with diplomacy and machiavelic intrigue, complete with tournaments, merchant intrigue and such. The 83 box set is better in that respect than the latter versions. Plus, in the long run having almost all the adventures take place constantly under the shadow of world-threatening, Flanaess busting, world-level conspiracies, can get a little tiring. Iuz is too poerful, too overbearing in From the Ashes, the civil war in the Great Kingdom too "magically powered" for my tastes, and so on.

    But these are largely matters of taste, of course!
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