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    Canonfire :: View topic - Why do all elves hate the Valley Elves?
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    Why do all elves hate the Valley Elves?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:13 pm  
    Why do all elves hate the Valley Elves?

    I was wondering why all elves hate the Valley Elves? Is there an *official* explanation, or has anyone come up with a creative reason?

    Thanks.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:12 pm  
    Valley Elves

    One interesting explanation I found was on the old Codex of Greyhawk site as part of the Geoff Project by Joe Katzman.

    In it, he describes the original sundering of the drow race from the other races of elves (the Kinslayer Wars). There was a group of elves that did not want to take either side in this epic war, they migrated to an out of the way locale and dwelled there apart from the rest of the surface elves. They were called the 'Avari' - meaning the unwilling.

    These Avari then later commited even more crimes against elvendom, by subserving themselves to a human wizard (one that has a drow as his lieutenant, no less!) and following his lead instead of traditional elven magic practices.

    Secondly, the drow had their hands in framing the valley elves for their own actions in directing the giants to take over Geoff and Sterich, cleverly planting elvish equipment and disguising themselves as Valley elves.

    This explanation seems logical and about as good as any I ever heard.

    O-D
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    Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:20 pm  

    The Valley elves are despised by most other elves because they view them as having given over their independence to the service of a human. The Mage of Vale, Jason Krimeah, or whichever name you choose to call him. Not to mention the female drow, Tyslin San, that is the Mage's second in command. Plus there is the possbility of Krimeah eventually becoming a lich. So the other elven subraces of elves on Oerth view all of this evil that the Valley elves serve and protect as somewhat of a slap in the face to the race of elves in general.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:44 pm  

    That doesn't seem to mesh with the LGG history of the Valley, given that the Mage didn't come to the Valley until long after the elves appeared. Nor does it explain the "awful and foreboding presence" that existed there even before the arrival of the elves.

    At the risk of being accused of being self-serving, I'll give my own explanations:

    When the elven peoples were first created, Sehanine Moonbow preached to her people that they must not be caught up in the petty conflicts of men, dwarfs, orcs, or other "inferior" races. She offered her land of dreams and visions, an eternal fairy-land where the elves could live in peace for the rest of eternity. In a fury, half the elven race spat in Sehanine's face, and turned their backs on her. Anguished, Sehanine retired to the world she wanted to bring her people to, comforted by those elves who remained. Thus the elves had no sacred homeland they could retreat to after several centuries, no Evermeet that was an unassailable place where the elves could live out the rest of their days. One of the goddesses most attuned to the wishes and desires of the elven people, one of their most powerful patrons, was responsible for sundering them before they could ever unite.

    Of the elves who abandoned Sehanine, many went over the Solnor, where they founded the eternal kingdom of Miranda in the far-off continent of Orannia. Others traveled west, and these split into two further groups. One pledged itself to Law, and would eventually go as far as the Sufang Empire in their odyssey. The second group was much smaller in number, and simply travelled to a valley in the mountains on the western edge of the Flanaess, where they pledged themselves to the Chaos that came therefrom. Sehanine's attempts to demonstrate her laws and guidance to the people had led to Chaos, so the valley elves felt that Chaos would reveal them the true meaning of life and a true source of power.

    Thus the drow, that race of elves whose very souls were made rotten after their poisoning by the venom of Lolth and the excrement of Gruumsh, would later say that the valley elves were made slaves to a lie. Chaos never revealed itself in the end, the drow claimed, and scorned the valley elves for their foolishness. Lies, they believed, should only be used to enslave others.

    In recent years, the drow have become the stuff of myth and legend, so that even the oldest elves believe that they are bogeymen created by parents to scare unruly children. But the valley elves have always been loathed by their elven kin, a painful reminder of the schism at the heart of elvenkind created by one of the race's founding deities. The valley elven king and his people had studied the tenets of Chaos for centuries, but succeeded only in being assailed by the warped monsters that the valley conjured for itself. The elven king eventually realized his error, and would later come to the court of the Grand Duke of Geoff for his own purposes.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer makes reference to a large oaken chest, several scrolls, and the final word of the valley elf king, which the duke revealed only to his heir. Those scrolls revealed the whole story of the valley elven race, and the foolish trek that cost them centuries of contact with their brothers. The king told the Grand Duke was now setting out on a voyage to travel the Oerth, seeking the elf that will be one day born. This legendary elf will be the one to reunite the whole of the elven race, to heal the wounds caused by Sehanine's foolishness. The vision was said to have come from Corellon Larethian himself to the elven king, though he knew not the truth of this. The final words from king to duke were to keep these sacred histories and artifacts of the valley elven race safe for when their rightful bearer comes. To this day, the dukes of Geoff have kept their word to this day.

    Geoff was very close friends with most of the other elven peoples of the region, and they protested the valley elf king's actions and Geoff's decision to aid them. The scrolls and artifacts of the valley elves have sat idle in Gorna for all this time, and the last elven king has not been heard from since. Most other elven peoples say good riddance to the king, although it is only under the reign of the Mage that raids from the Valley have been a significant threat.

    My Greyhawk Gazetteer Addendum entry on the Valley of the Mage has my take on the Mage, who is not so much tied to the valley elves through an ancient connection as because he is a powerful protector who tamed the vicious monsters of the Valley and made them beholden to him as a result.

    (And for the record, I try and turn a few of the regular fantasy cliches on their ear here-the elves are not fractured in the modern era as opposed to being united in the ancient days. Instead, after being eternally fractured, they have a chance to at last be united. One of the most sacred elven deities is scorned by her very people. Whereas in many other settings elves have a "homeland" they travel to after several centuries of life, something that they cannot deny, Oerth's elves have no such place to go to. Only with the creation of the Lendore Isles does anything resembling that homeland now exist, and even then it caused great friction between the elves of Sehanine and those elves who bore humanity no ill will.)

    (As to what to make of the schisms between the valley elves and the rest of their people, the actions of the People of the Testing and the church of Sehanine, the friction between the People and supporters of Sehanine and the rest of elvenkind, and the apparently competing visions between Corellon and Sehanine for the future of the elven race...well, that would be your job, if you use all this. ;) )
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:47 pm  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    That doesn't seem to mesh with the LGG history of the Valley, given that the Mage didn't come to the Valley until long after the elves appeared. Nor does it explain the "awful and foreboding presence" that existed there even before the arrival of the elves.


    Just to note where the information in my above post came from. I have no idea what LGG says about the Mage or the Valley. That was just information I recalled from the 2e elves handbook on elf races in the different worlds.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:34 pm  

    Other elves, like, hate the Valley Elves, because they, like, have these anoying speech patterns, y'know? They like make every sentence *totally* sound like a question?

    And because they, like, are the most like humans, y'know? And that is cool with them, like, they are so not harshed that they are like humans?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:08 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    Other elves, like, hate the Valley Elves, because they, like, have these anoying speech patterns, y'know? They like make every sentence *totally* sound like a question?

    And because they, like, are the most like humans, y'know? And that is cool with them, like, they are so not harshed that they are like humans?


    You, like, totally owe me a new keyboard for that one, Kirt. There's like this spray of 'Dew all over the place. Like, totally disgusting, dude. Oh, and like don't forget, the Valley elves, like go totally postal when they encounter people in their woods. Very antisocial even for elves, so like, they never get invited to anything, not even like a feywine kegger. How sad is that?
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:11 pm  

    Worth mentioning that the Valley Elves are the only subrace of elves endemic to Greyhawk, AFAIK. All other subraces can be found on other planets, worlds, etc. So figure that into your mythology of union, separation, and paradise lost and reclaimed.

    I haven-t read the Valley of the Mage supplement, so I don-t know too much about them, but it seems possible that they have in general renounced the worship of the Seldarine. That would not make them popular with other elves.

    And there may be a factor of while all the other subraces can be traced to Tolkein, more, or less, the Valley Elves are the creation of? Gygax? So the other elves are kind of snobbish - like "we are Tolkein rip-offs and you are only a Tolkein rip-off wannabe".

    Oh, I don-t think Snow Elves are Tolkein either, but you don-t hear much about them. Oh jeez, aquatic elves, either. Ok, never mind that last argument.
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    Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:19 pm  

    Yeah, the elven hatred of Valley Elves dates back to way before WG12 Valley of the Mage came out.

    I think it mentions it in the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting (1E) and one of the 1E Monster Manuals. At that stage EGG was still in control and I think his version of the Mage of the Valley was quite different to WotC's version.

    Just by looking at the Gord the Rogue novels, the Mage of the Valley seems to be some sort of Neutral demigod who protects the Balance of Oerth.

    Another note. Valley Elves are supposed to be 6 foot tall! So they're clearly some sort of weird off-shoot. Because of this anomoly, I've always wondered if they hadn't come from another world. Oh God, the elves of the Forgotten Realms are all 6 foot tall, could the Valley Elves have migrated from there? Confused

    Also, off the topic, I prefer the Gord the Rogue Mage of the Valley. He makes more sense in my opinion. You see, the Valley is such a great location for an empire - lush and well protected - and there's no way there wouldn't have already been a nation deeply entrenched in the Vale by the time Jason Krimeah came waltzing along. It seems as if Jason just waltzes in, in the last decade or so, and takes control. This is a little unbelievable to me. I like the idea of an ancient, enigmatic quasi-deity who has ruled the Vale even before the first human migrations!
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