G'day. This is my first post. I apologize in advance if I've done a rotten job of it. I use the Knights of the Hart (particularly the Furyonidan branch)extensively in my campaign and while quite happy to put it together for myself, it seems strange to me that after all of the Greyhawk information I've read (Old and New, Canon and otherwise) over the years- the structure and Hierarchy of the Knights of the Hart has proven frustratingly elusive. The leadership of the Knights of Holy Shielding has been detailed by official sources and even the Knights of the Watch have their Grand Elusive Poopah Dragon etc etc ad nauseum. Why not the Knights of the Hart?
Has anyone come across a hierarchy for the three orders and how they might interact on a formal basis? It seems reasonable to believe that the Veluna and Furyondy chapters at the very least would have a military chain of command in order to function properly with hundereds of men-at-arms at their disposal.
As a feudal system, it makes sense for individual knights of Furyondy to owe loyalty to nobles who don't belong to the order at least some of the time. How would these people feel about their vassals integrating their men with those of other knights from other fiefs? Does anyone else feel that the Knights of the Hart would make the Furyondian nobility just a little worried? Especially if they and their significant military assets ultimately answer to someone else?
So who do they answer to? Although ostensibly loyal to King and Country, who do they actually answer to within the order?
Presumably whoever commands Castle Hart would have considerable influence over the Furyondian knights. I seem to recall that there was a former Regent, Lord Throstin, who had considerable influence with the order also but I can't recall where I read it. The Marklands introduced Kiprien Rahlden as an influential member and I believe From the Ashes made mention of a Lemajen Sterich. Neither are mentioned as the leader of the order.
As far as the Living Greyhawk campaign is concerned, they don't seem to answer directly to Belvor IV. They just don't seem to mesh well. There appears to be some dissension with regards to the appointment of the Count of Crystalreach. They are influential in the Knightly Conclave- to be most effective they would need to present a united front. Presumably they have a private forum other than the very public Knightly Conclave to discuss their views and reach consensus before going into session. That would imply that there is at least an Inner Circle of sorts- still not terribly effective for a military order.
One final point of interest. I seem to recall something interesting about Prince Thrommel. Was he not Grand Marshall of Furyondy before he disappeared? I have a vague memory of the original Temple of Elemental Evil adventure- I believe the Prince wore the design of the Knights of the Hart on his surcoat. Do the order then answer to the Grand Marshall directly or can the Grand Marshall simply ALSO be a Knight of the Hart. [/i]
There's more too, but also try Google-ing "knights of the hart". Not much has been put forth on the upper ranks of the Knights of the Hart or their organization. While slower ranking knights might directly serve a more powerful and/or higher ranking knightly lord, all of the knights serve the king. Many of the knights are lords themselves. Of all the knightly orders, the Knights of the Hart have the fewest members and are the most picky about who they will accept into their ranks. I skipped over the orders' upper echelon organization to a large degree in my article in the interest of moving on to the next article- the Knights of Holy Shielding(recently revamped). I went hog wild on the Knights of the Watch for some bizarre reason(I have never even used them in my own campaign...yet), and that article for all intents and purposes is done. I have mentiond that I'd like to go back to both the Knights of the Hart and Knight Protectors articles and further flesh them out with a bit more history and a more indepth look at their membership and structure. I'm not sure when I'll have the chance to do so though.
Thrommel was/is indeed a Knight of the Hart. The Knights of the Hart are a political organization too after all, and it would be foolish to refuse the King's stalwart paladin of a son admittance to the order. Thrommel was slated to be the next king after all, and what better way for the order to curry favor than to make the king-to-be one of their own? _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Wow. Those Knights of Veluna are pretty deep. I'm not sure I can even imagine someone spitefully and scornfully attacking with fury. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Thrommel was/is indeed a Knight of the Hart... was he? Is that from ToEE?
The Temple of Elemental Evil only says, "The coffin's occupant is Prince Thrommel, Grand Marshall of Furyondy, Provost of Veluna, a Paladin Lord." It does not mention him being a member of any knighthood. Thrommel's stat block in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil indicates he was a 12th-level paladin - but switched nine of those levels for blackguard when he was embraced.
But then, we get into the whole alignment issue with Fragarach if we go the paladin route. To which, Mr. Gygax suggested "paladin" was just a title of position and privilege. But then, Mentzer said the sword's published CG alignment was a typo.
Anyway, are there any issues with Thrommel being a Knight of the Hart?
There is no issue with Thrommel being a Knight of the Hart. Rulers were members(if not the titular head) of the knightly orders their lands sponsored anyways. As part of their tutoring, princes would likely became members of a knightly order and train within its ranks.
Besides, just prior to Greyson's excerpt from the DM's information section of the encounter is the initial Player description of the encounter area which confirms that Thrommel is a Knight of the Hart:
"Your powerful magic reveals a figure completely different from the vampire form. You see a handsome mail-clad human man with golden hair. He is clad in a white surcoat, quartered by the arms of Furyondy and Veluna and the antlers of the Knights of the Hart, in red. He wears a gold belt at his waist, with a dagger. About his neck is a gold chain with an emblem of a crown and crescent moon; on his left hand is a gold ring with a similar device. His shield rests under his feet."
One does not bear the arms of a knightly order without being a member themselves(they kind of frown on that, even if you are a crown prince), so yes, Thrommel is a Knight of the Hart.
In Oerth Journal #12 Gary confirmed that Fragarach's CG alignment was a misprint, so Thrommel is a paladin. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Tue May 06, 2008 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Awesome. Thanks for the notes and clarification, Brian. It's nice to have a community expert on this sort of thing. I just noticed that the original poster even noted the text from The Temple of Elemental Evil specifically mentioning the coat of arms of the Knights of the Hart.
As a feudal system, it makes sense for individual knights of Furyondy to owe loyalty to nobles who don't belong to the order at least some of the time. How would these people feel about their vassals integrating their men with those of other knights from other fiefs? Does anyone else feel that the Knights of the Hart would make the Furyondian nobility just a little worried? Especially if they and their significant military assets ultimately answer to someone else?
So who do they answer to? Although ostensibly loyal to King and Country, who do they actually answer to within the order?[/i]
First off, when somebody is knighted they become a member of a knightly order. Their oath of fealty to the order involves looking to the interests of the order to be sure, but also by default includes an oath of fealty to the King himself. The reason for this is that the order itself is sworn to the ruler of the land, and so swearing an oath of fealty to the order carries up the ladder so to speak, to the King. In effect, any Furyondian Knight of the Hart and any other noble, or servant of either who has sworn an oath of fealty to a knight or noble, has sworn fealty to the King. It is an important distinction that a knight who has sworn an oath of fealty can serve under anyone, but ultimately they owe their fealty to the King. Under these circumstances, a knight can be a servant of a noble, can be a member of a knightly order, and can be put under the command of any knight of higher rank within the order or a higher ranking noble. If the knight were to receive an order that they felt was contrary to the interests of the King, they could in good conscience disobey the order. Choosing to disobey an order is of course not an action that a knight would take lightly. Even if the knight were found to be in the right, a formal inquiry would assuredly be undertaken to determine the “rightness” of the decision. Knights are required under the feudal system to defer to higher ranking nobles(who themselves are sworn to the King), but that doesn’t mean they owe fealty to those lords. To top it all off, the King is himself sworn to serve the nation’s best interests, and by extension, so are all of those who have sworn fealty to him or his nobles who have in turn sworn fealty to him, on down the line.
Now, when a simple warrior takes an oath of fealty to serve a noble who is not the King they also are swearing an oath of fealty to the King by default. The noble they are swearing fealty to has they themselves already sworn fealty to the King, and so must require that their sworn servants aid them in the upholding their own oath. To require less is a betrayal of the noble’s oath of the fealty to the King. Fealty is a chain of oath giving that goes right to the top basically. At the end of it all, there is no question of who a knight owes fealty to, even if he is sworn to a noble or only to the King himself. A knight may serve a noble, but they owe fealty to the King, not the noble, and so there is no conflict. This doesn't eman that there cannot be probalems. if a noble's sworn servants do things contry to sevin the kind, guess who is repsonsible? That's right. the noble is repsondisble. So the kings says to the noble "Reign in your servants loyal noble, or I'll assume that they are carrying out your will, which, being contrary to mine, is a forswearing of *your* oath of fealty. That of course will lead to me calling down the wrath of the entire nation upon your treacherous arse with great vengance, and you will know that I *AM* your lord and master." I hope the meaning of my explanation is clear.
While Furyondy does have a feudal system, each of the Seven families is very powerful and influential, as is the Knightly Conclave. Each of the Seven Families seeks prominence over the others, though not their outright downfall. So, even those goodly folk who have sworn oaths of fealty may look for ways to benefit the lords they serve without the consequences of such being directly detrimental to the King, which of course would break their oath of fealty. Thee is a bit of wiggle room with regards to oath taking, but not a lot, and the more you wiggle, the more seedy a reputation you probably will acquire(not that this is enough reason to stop people from doing it all often enough). Also, the Knightly conclave is a public body, but that doesn’t mean their meetings are public. Nobody can just walk in on such meetings, nor any other governmental meetings. You have to have status to do that(it being a feudal society ).
Damien wrote:
Presumably whoever commands Castle Hart would have considerable influence over the Furyondian knights. I seem to recall that there was a former Regent, Lord Throstin, who had considerable influence with the order also but I can't recall where I read it. The Marklands introduced Kiprien Rahlden as an influential member and I believe From the Ashes made mention of a Lemajen Sterich. Neither are mentioned as the leader of the order. [/i]
Nobody commands Castle Hart. It burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp! Rasgon posted a nice summary on Castle Hart from Eric L. Boyd’s webpage(there is link in Rasgon’s post to this site too) on this thread:
An excerpt from this bit states that “Count Gladwell Solan, High Commander of the Knights of Furyondy (LG hm Pa11)” was the leader of the Furyondian Knights of the Hart, and that he survived the destruction of Castle Hart, only o fall agaisnta fiend of Iuz at the Battle of Critwall Bridge. He could very well have been the ruler of the Viscounty of the March, but could also have just held the equivalent title of “Count” due to his position as leader of the order. I'll have to look into that a bit more.
Damien wrote:
As far as the Living Greyhawk campaign is concerned, they don't seem to answer directly to Belvor IV. They just don't seem to mesh well. There appears to be some dissension with regards to the appointment of the Count of Crystalreach. They are influential in the Knightly Conclave- to be most effective they would need to present a united front. Presumably they have a private forum other than the very public Knightly Conclave to discuss their views and reach consensus before going into session. That would imply that there is at least an Inner Circle of sorts- still not terribly effective for a military order.[/i]
Well, not everything in LG is covered, and a few things are of qustionable merit, but that is neither here nor there. In a feudal society, a knightly order is chartered under the auspices of the King and the order does indeed serve king and country. At this point in time however, the Furyondian Knights of the Hart is made up of disparate members representing their own agendas, those of the Seven Families, etc. This results in the complicated political dance that is serving one's own agenda while still maintaining one’s oath of fealty to the King as well as serving the nation’s best interest. Opinions on how best to serve the nation’s interests will of course vary greatly, and even though these opinions may not be contrary to serving the king, such opinions may very well end up serving others more than they serve the king(though the king is still served in the process). This is where the political wrangling and haggling takes center stage, and where lawyers really earn their platinum plates.
I probably could have written some of this a bit better or more clearly, but there you have it. I hope the gist of it all is plain enough. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
"Your powerful magic reveals a figure completely different from the vampire form. You see a handsome mail-clad human man with golden hair. He is clad in a white surcoat, quartered by the arms of Furyondy and Veluna and the antlers of the Knights of the Hart, in red. He wears a gold belt at his waist, with a dagger. About his neck is a gold chain with an emblem of a crown and crescent moon; on his left hand is a gold ring with a similar device. His shield rests under his feet."
One does not bear the arms of a knightly order without being a member themselves(they kind of frown on that, even if you are a crown prince), so yes, Thrommel is a Knight of the Hart.
Except that he is not exactly wearing the arms of the Knights of the Hart. He is wearing the "arms" of Furyondy and Veluna, but only the "antlers" of the Knights - that is, part of the arms but not the arms per se.
He has it as part of a device that is quartered - Furyondy, Veluna, and the Knights. He is the CROWN PRINCE of Furyondy and the PROVOST of Veluna, so that explains those two. It is clear that he has SOME relationship with the Knights, but just what that is is not obvious.
Consider that all three branches of the Knights have their antlers in GOLD, while his are in RED. So again, this is not exactly the heraldry of the Knights.
I certainly see nothing wrong with him being a member, but that is not the only possible interpretation. It could be, for example, that his use of the Knights imagery is because, as a member of the royal family and heir to the throne, it is HE that the Knights are sworn to defend and uphold. Thus, his use of the heraldry could imply not that he is a member per se, but that he is the head of the Order, or that he is outside the Order but he is (one) reason that the order exists. In other words, his white tunic and quartered design would be read "Paladin, Prince of Furyondy, Provost of Veluna, upheld and supported by the Knights of the Hart"
IIRC the colors of Furyondy are Red and Blue, and since blue is the field color of the actual Furyondy Knights, using the antlers as Red would make sense in emphasizing his status as a royal. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Except that he is not exactly wearing the arms of the Knights of the Hart. He is wearing the "arms" of Furyondy and Veluna, but only the "antlers" of the Knights - that is, part of the arms but not the arms per se.
Ah, but Thrommel *is* wearing the arms of the Knights of the Hart. Personal arms often include elements of heraldry from all of the connections that the wearer has, whether they be to family, a nation(or nations in this case), or a group(like a knightly order). The flaw is in that your reasoning disregards the rules of heraldry, which Gygax knew and used extensively(even though he often broke those rules with regard to tincture usage, but that is really irrelevant to this case). As I posted earlier, knightly orders(nor anybody for that matter) don't let people use their heraldry unless they are a member of the order, and that means they are a knight and not some pot-scrubbing serf or political attendee attached to the order.
Any heraldry(or elements of that heraldry)that forms a part of somebody's personal coat-of-arms means that they are a member of or originate from that family/nation/organization from which the heraldry(or element thereof) originates. Those elements may even rarely be altered in color or form to acsribe additional meanings to the heraldic element(as is the case here). Thrommel does not just have "antlers" as part of his personal heraldry, but specifically "antlers of the Knights of the Hart", meaning he is a member of the order(i.e. a knight). We don't need to be blatantly told that Thrommel is a Knight of the Hart, as the fact that his personal heraldry bears their arms means he *is* a knight.
I specifically chose not to address the RED color of the antlers for one specific reason- it is part of the expansion I am doing for my article on the Knights of the Hart(I gotta hold something back! ). The color is unique for a reason, as Thrommel occupies/occupied a very unique position among two nations that both sponsor a branch of the order. But, the color of the antlers is if no importance in figuring out if Thrommel is a Knight of the Hart or not. The mere presence of antlers in his personal coat –of-arms, and their specific description as being “antlers of the Knights of the Hart” means he is indeed a Knight of the Hart.
The requirements for the Knights of the Hart are known to be rather stringent, which is one reason why the Knights of the Hart do not have as many members as most other orders. The other reason is that most of the candidates have to be "connected" among the Furyondian nobility to begin with- they gotta keep those peasants with grandiose ideas of their own self worth down in the muck and manure o f the feudal system of course. Either that or any low-born scum must do some stupendously great deed that makes the deeds of many of the current knights pale in comparison to be elevated to knighthood(as to do any less would pretty much lower the perceived status of the knights, and it is best to keep the over-achievers in amongst yourself where they can be overseen by their betters). But that is not the only criteria. Candidates must also be highly trained and skilled in battle as well. So, being made a knight is definitely *not* any sort of political appointment. The King can certainly make recommendations for members of the order, which would then assign a sponsor to the candidate; the final formality being the actual knighting of the King's candidate. Of course with Thrommel, we don't have some mealy mouthed Black Adder-esque cretin being put forth as a candidate, but a heroic paladin of proven combat ability and leadership. So, there's no issue with Thrommel being made a knights as he meets/exceeds the ideals of the order. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Well I must say the information so far has exceeded my wildest hopes. I'm glad to have sparked off such a spirited and excellent discussion on my first effort. Thankyou all.
Quote:
The Knights of the Hart are a political organization too after all, and it would be foolish to refuse the King's stalwart paladin of a son admittance to the order. Thrommel was slated to be the next king after all, and what better way for the order to curry favor than to make the king-to-be one of their own?
So, some additional speculation: assuming that Thrommel was a Knight of the Hart, is it possible that as Provost of Veluna and Prince of Furyondy he may have in fact been a member of several branches of the Order of the Hart. If the Furyondian Knights would grant him entry to curry favour, perhaps their Velunese counterparts might refuse to be outdone and do the same! Could this perhaps account for his altered heraldry?
Which brings me to my next question. Much has been made of this tripartite organization working together to ensure the peace and prosperity of all three nations. Does anybody know if and when they might have locked horns politically or even come to blows over certain matters?
I'm sure that the Highfolk branch and the Furyondian branch must grate on each other at times. Veluna and Furyondy are allies, sure, but there must be some juicy intrigue going on behind closed doors- According to the LGG, the Furyondian knights want to bring Dyvers back into the fold and take Verbobonc under their "protection". Would the Velunese be working to counter this to ensure the autonomy of those states plus their own?
Can anyone else see the intrigue beginning to swirl around our favourite missing Prince? Speculation of course, but a rich tapestry for storytelling nonetheless.
The various branches don't grate on each other much, if at all. They are in fact very friendly, though I’m sure a few individuals just don’t like each other very much. That doesn’t mean they will sabotage each other or actually fight though. They are all part of the same order so they are much more than just allies. Each branch has a specific task(or tasks) that they are in charge of, but all of them work together towards the greater goal of protecting the nations they individually serve as well as those of the other branches of the order. Members from different branches of the order work together very often.
Any members of the orders who locked horns would probably be reprimanded by cooler heads(most likely the by a Velunese knight who are known for their diplomatic skills). If any members came to actual blows, it would constitute breaking one's oath of service to the order(as attempting to harm another member of the order is detrimental to the order itself). It may also count as breaking one's oath of service to one’s patron nation at the least, and at worst might even be considered an act of treason for attacking a loyal and noble(knights *are* members of the lower nobility) servant of the realm. Besides, each of the branches of the order has plenty of enemies they need to keep an eye on or kill to even begin thinking about squabbling among themselves.
The developing intrigue surrounding the missing Prince Thrommel has been remarked on at great length for quite some time. The intrigue began long ago as Thrommel disappeared in 573 CY. It is now considered to be 598 CY, so the machinations have been going on for some time, even before Thrommel disappeared actually. The grand plan was for Prince Thrommel to marry the Lady Jolene of Veluna(daughter of the Archcleric Hazen), uniting both nations officially by blood through an heir. As King, Thrommel was to rule in temporal matters, while Archcleric Hazen was to rule over spiritual matters. Verbobonc is described as a nominal vassal of Veluna, so upon the unification of the two nations, Verbobonc would then officially fall under the protection of Furyondy as well as Veluna.
Dyvers is desired by Furyondy for its mercantile power. No surprises there.
Oh, and your are about spot on with regards to why the color of the antlers of the Knights of the Hart in Thrommel’s personal heraldry are red. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Except that he is not exactly wearing the arms of the Knights of the Hart. He is wearing the "arms" of Furyondy and Veluna, but only the "antlers" of the Knights - that is, part of the arms but not the arms per se.
Ah, but Thrommel *is* wearing the arms of the Knights of the Hart. Personal arms often include elements of heraldry from all of the connections that the wearer has, whether they be to family, a nation(or nations in this case), or a group(like a knightly order). The flaw is in that your reasoning disregards the rules of heraldry, which Gygax knew and used extensively (even though he often broke those rules with regard to tincture usage, but that is really irrelevant to this case).
I'm afraid I am largely ignorant of the laws of heraldry.
I am just processing the use of English - if the text says that the Prince has the ARMS of Furyondy and Veluna but the ANTLERS of the Knights, that to me means he does not have the arms of the Knights per se.
If he DID have the arms of the Knights, it would seem like Gygax should have written "He is clad in a white surcoat, quartered by the arms of Furyondy, Veluna, and the Knights of the Hart."
Deliberately including a more complicated phrase seems to emphasize something. Possibly the red color, possibly the difference between the Prince's arms and those of the Knights, possibly both.
Cebrion wrote:
As I posted earlier, knightly orders(nor anybody for that matter) don't let people use their heraldry unless they are a member of the order, and that means they are a knight and not some pot-scrubbing serf or political attendee attached to the order.
Any heraldry(or elements of that heraldry)that forms a part of somebody's personal coat-of-arms means that they are a member of or originate from that family/nation/organization from which the heraldry(or element thereof) originates. Those elements may even rarely be altered in color or form to acsribe additional meanings to the heraldic element(as is the case here). Thrommel does not just have "antlers" as part of his personal heraldry, but specifically "antlers of the Knights of the Hart", meaning he is a member of the order(i.e. a knight). We don't need to be blatantly told that Thrommel is a Knight of the Hart, as the fact that his personal heraldry bears their arms means he *is* a knight.
The requirements for the Knights of the Hart are known to be rather stringent, which is one reason why the Knights of the Hart do not have as many members as most other orders. The other reason is that most of the candidates have to be "connected" among the Furyondian nobility to begin with- they gotta keep those peasants with grandiose ideas of their own self worth down in the muck and manure o f the feudal system of course. Either that or any low-born scum must do some stupendously great deed that makes the deeds of many of the current knights pale in comparison to be elevated to knighthood(as to do any less would pretty much lower the perceived status of the knights, and it is best to keep the over-achievers in amongst yourself where they can be overseen by their betters). But that is not the only criteria. Candidates must also be highly trained and skilled in battle as well. So, being made a knight is definitely *not* any sort of political appointment. The King can certainly make recommendations for members of the order, which would then assign a sponsor to the candidate; the final formality being the actual knighting of the King's candidate. Of course with Thrommel, we don't have some mealy mouthed Black Adder-esque cretin being put forth as a candidate, but a heroic paladin of proven combat ability and leadership. So, there's no issue with Thrommel being made a knights as he meets/exceeds the ideals of the order.
I am not suggesting that being made a Knight is a political appointment, or that it could go to anyone.
I am merely saying that it is possible that Thrommel's place in the order could be honorary, be it as leader (Grand Master?) or as personage to be defended. Yes, he is technically a "member" - but his membership might not have been attained in the manner of all other members.
In an order sworn to uphold the King, it does not seem odd to me that the King could appoint to the position of Grand Master a person not formerly a member. Or that the current Crown Prince was automatically the Grand Master, even if not formerly a member.
That the King could appoint someone a normal member, no - but that he could decide who headed the order, and that head might not have previously been considered a member.
Cebrion wrote:
Rulers were members(if not the titular head) of the knightly orders their lands sponsored anyways. As part of their tutoring, princes would likely became members of a knightly order and train within its ranks.
This is essentially what I am saying, except that I emphasize that the "would likely become" includes the possibility that the Prince was not actually a member of the Order before he was made its head. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Last edited by Kirt on Mon May 12, 2008 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Which brings me to my next question. Much has been made of this tripartite organization working together to ensure the peace and prosperity of all three nations. Does anybody know if and when they might have locked horns politically or even come to blows over certain matters?
My version of the Knights is available on Canonfire as:
In Part II, I describe how the invasion of Perrenland led to internal conflicts in the Furyondian Order (the only Branch at the time), the resignation from the Order of the majority of the elves, and the creation of the High Forest Branch. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
it seems strange to me that after all of the Greyhawk information I've read (Old and New, Canon and otherwise) over the years- the structure and Hierarchy of the Knights of the Hart has proven frustratingly elusive.
Has anyone come across a hierarchy for the three orders and how they might interact on a formal basis?
Canon is ambiguous about the existence of rank and internal divisions among the Knights of the Hart.
A Guide to the World of Greyhawk and From the Ashes do not specifically mention whether the Knights have leaders or not.
The Marklands (p.11) says specifically “The Knights of the Heart have no formal leaders, and each knight is free to act alone or with other knights as their conscience and honor direct.”
However, Greyhawk Wars speaks of a Lord Throstin as the leader of the Furyondy Knights, and Castle Hart gives detail of another leader.
My own, canon-version of the Knights will try to unify all these versions.
My personal campaign version, written before the Greyhawk Wars! and now heretical, is available at
I give the hierarchy of the Knights as being headed by a Grand Master, with four Chapter Houses Headed by House Masters. The House Masters each have four Knight Commanders, and the regular knights serve a specific Knight Commander.
My personal version has them much more dedicated to the King than (Markland or Wars) canon. For just the reasons you suggest about Knights with conflicts of interest, in my version there is a large province of Furyondy called the Knight Tracts, which the Knights hold exclusively from the King. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
The grand plan was for Prince Thrommel to marry the Lady Jolene of Veluna(daughter of the Archcleric Hazen), uniting both nations officially by blood through an heir.
Jolene was the daughter of the Plar of Veluna, the most important of the seven Noble Houses. I am not aware of any reference to her as the daughter of Hazan.
Cebrion wrote:
Dyvers is desired by Furyondy for its mercantile power. No surprises there.
But there is also history...Dyvers USED to be part of Furyondy, until they rebelled and declared their independence. I suspect the dislike of the Knights for Dyvers is a resentment of their defeat in this struggle, and their desire for annexation reflects not only practicality but a desire to restore what was once rightfully part of Furyondy and vindicate their former loss. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
You are right about Jolene of course. I haven't looked up her reference in a while(I knew I should have looked her up for that exact relation!). I agree with you on the reasons for the dislike of the Knights of Dyvers. An added barb could be that Dyvers also practices the selling of knighthoods as a point of social status to those individuals a Furyondian knight would consider unworthy to bear the title of "knight". Things like this really annoy those stuffy and honorable noble types of course. More fuel for the fire surely. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sat May 17, 2008 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Pretty good on the heraldric depiction. However, I always thought that the lower quarters were 'reduced to fit' into the area, allowing the entire blazon to be displayed.
Of course, I'm hardly a memeber of any heraldric school, so I could be wrong...
I'm not sure what the rule on this is, but I've seen it done both ways with different things. I'll have to look into it further. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sat May 17, 2008 10:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
After a bit more research I have found that charges are indeed squished into the available space. Patterned areas are simply continued in the available space, though I already knew that and am just pointing it out to everyone. Also, I have looked into how three coats of arms are set up in a quartered fashion(just in case)- the primary arms is lcoated in the 1st and 4th quadrants, the secondary arms located in the 2nd quadrant, and the tertiary arms located in the 3rd quadrant. Ater finding this out, I thought to myself "Hmmm. This arrangement sounds kinda familiar..."
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