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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk overused- the newbee dilemma
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    Greyhawk overused- the newbee dilemma
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:40 am  
    Greyhawk overused- the newbee dilemma

    I returned to Greyhawk -although I was never exposed to the setting to any degree years ago- with a purchase of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer.

    No pictures, no crunch, but rather pages and pages of convoluted history lessons made me feel that I've returned in the late hours to a party I'd never really been invited to.

    That sayed, I think many people were turned off by that product, and would've been better served with a collectors edition of the 83' boxed set or something.

    Has anyone thought of starting a project: Greyhawk from scratch or something, which'd introduce the masses to 'Hawk' by giving them a fresh outlook over a fresh world?

    I know I'm being vague, but It'd be cool to have a project thread for noobs based solely upon the 'Gygax stuff', labled in such a way as to present the material as a 'new' setting, where gamers didn't need any prior knowledge of the world.

    Which brings me to the inevitable question: "How much of the material from the 83' boxed set be posted online?"

    Having a setting that's overused in recent published works makes for a real snafu.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:47 am  

    friend, im really new here, and also new to GH.

    but im not so new to the game (im a 2ed player, but sometimes, i risk a little od&d and 1ed).

    im trying to use only pre 2ed material in my game (today i tried relly hard to make my players go to hommlet (and then, to the temple of elemental evil ;)), but they just whant to go to the city of greyhawk!

    dont know the exact words, but ima little "afraid" of using modern material, even 2ed material. i dont whant to miss the "Greyhawk Feeling", you know?

    on the other hand, some players (sadly) dont give a c*ap about the old ways, and just whant to hack some monsters, and be stronger than npcs.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:18 pm  

    As a Greyhawk nerd, I'm glad all that history and detail exists, but I agree that the LGG wasn't the most accessible introduction to the setting.

    WotC knew this, and published a book called the Dungeons & Dragons Gazetteer simultaneously. It was a heavily abridged version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, with a bare bones summary of every nation.

    However, that book didn't really see the importance of provocative illustrations in selling a setting either, and I think it still wasn't as good an introduction to Greyhawk as I'd like.

    The 1998 Greyhawk Player's Guide tried much harder to introduce Greyhawk's most prominent themes and features to a newbie, but was still probably a bit too detailed. A bit too much on prominent NPCs, and not quite enough on what makes the various nations different from one another.

    A combination of the Player's Guide and D&D Gazetteer, plus some vivid fantasy art labeled in appropriately Greyhawkish ways, would be an awesome intro to the setting, but I still think we could do better.

    The way I'd do it, I'd start out with some clear descriptions of the most interesting power groups in the Flanaess, perhaps with accompanying base classes, and of course an illustration of typical members of the group, their heraldry, and a small map of their area of greatest dominance. I'd pick the Church of Saint Cuthbert, the Scarlet Brotherhood, the Horned Society, the Knights of the Hart, the Old Faith, Monks of Zuoken, Knights of Doom, Empire of Iuz, the Greyhawk Thieves' Guild, the Circle of Eight, the Silent Ones, and the Seekers of the Arcane, maybe. There are a few other groups that might be effective, like the Church of Pholtus, Empire of Turrosh Mak, Rangers of the Gnarley, and Knights of Holy Shielding, possibly. Major things the player characters can belong to or fight against that show how distinctive Greyhawk is. The Circle of Eight, if I included it, would be presented as a vast organization of agents that could easily include the PCs, with the leadership deemphasized and left vague at first.

    Next would be races, showing how elves, dwarves, gnomes, and the various human ethnic groups fit into Greyhawk. Again, clear illustrations and a map with the regions each group is dominant highlighted. The entry for elf would have a picture of an elf and a map with Celene, Highfolk, and the Duchy of Ulek highlighted, and the entry for Flan would have a picture of a bronze-skinned, curly-haired Flan man and woman in standard adventurer dress with the Duchy of Tenh, the Barrens, and Geoff highlighted, and maybe a Rover and a Wolf Nomad in the background.

    Next would be nations and politics, concentrating more on what gives each nation its distinctive feel rather than on a country's raw stats. Keoland is an ancient, slumbering kingdom with an imperialist past, ruled by haughty nobles who prefer the arcane arts to religious faith, the chief dominating force to the western Flanaess as the Great Kingdom of Aerdy was to the eastern and central Flanaess. The Great Kingdom is a shattered giant that nearly conquered the entire continent before it fell into decadence and devil-worship. Nyrond is a weakened and weary by noble nation that represents the survival of what was best in the Great Kingdom, the bright yang to Aerdy's dark yin, filled with Heironeous-worshippers while the remnants of Aerdy still prefer Hextor. Furyondy is a proud feudal point of light at the edge of absolute darkness. Greyhawk is a city of heroes, sell-swords, and criminals ruled by thieves, a place where free people of all alignments and philosophies can mingle. Iuz is a land of demonic horror, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a land of racist monks and assassins, the Iron League are proud and pragmatic merchants, defenders, and resistors, and most of the setting can pivot off those main ideas. Each "region" (the Sheldomar, Old Aerdy East, Old Aerdy West, the Savage North, etc.) would have a clear map, and each nation would have its heraldry next to it, and there would be full-color illustrations of picturesque locales like the Pinnacles of Azor'alq, the Coldwood, Rift Canyon, the Land of Black Ice, and Icespire.

    The last chapter would be gods, presented briefly with their holy symbols next to them. I'd probably use the Gygaxian model of only describing the most interesting ones, with the others in a list in the appendix describing their names and portfolios. Those who are interested in researching the others could look online or in previous Greyhawk books. But I'd try to make them all as interesting and useful as possible.

    Then a few more appendixes in the back: flora of Greyhawk, languages of Greyhawk, runes and glyphs, other things that don't need full-color illustrations or detailed descriptions but are still fun.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:28 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    As a Greyhawk nerd, I'm glad all that ....


    so...dont you wanna do it? Happy Happy Happy Happy

    your brief description of what to do was very good to me, as a new DM to GH. thanks a lot!
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:25 pm  

    Why not let your players discover the world as they travel; most people aren't historically savy about their own patch let alone other places.

    Let your players create an acceptable background and then give them some local information. Racially information can be dispensed if the players chose that race. Add a mention of a major war - GH wars. The information doesn't even have to be particularily truthful - tales get exaggerated.

    As your players travel to unknown areas start feeding them some more history. This method gives you time to research a new area without having to learn everything at once and allows the players make all those entertaining social mistakes that foreigners commonly make.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:02 pm  

    My recommendation is similar to Crag's. Let the players discover the world of Greyhawk a bit at a time. Each character will be from somewhere, so give the player the campaign background information relevant to that area and a bit on its immediate neighbors. This ought to make up the greater portion of an average character's general knowldege of the lands they are from and those that are nearby. If the character has traveled to get to where the characters meet up, then give the player some additional info on the lands their character traveled through to get there. Other than that, the players will have to learn things about the world as their characters adventure in it or by comparing notes(i.e. having their character(s) tell the other characters stories about the lands they come from). It works rather well actually. Even if the player makes up some wild story that has no basis in the real truth of how things actually are, it still works. It's just a story after all. Characters can become known as total B.S. artists if they get too wild in their story telling. Laughing
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:07 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    A combination of the Player's Guide and D&D Gazetteer, plus some vivid fantasy art labeled in appropriately Greyhawkish ways, would be an awesome intro to the setting, but I still think we could do better.


    I think so too, and I agree with Rasgon’s idea on how a intro document to GH should be like.

    I’m working to fulfill both the map part and the illustration of picturesque locales part. The text part I know we have some of the best to fulfill here at Canonfire and Rason has pointed out we have the leadership too Wink

    Now you have given me some excellent suggestions on what to include. I will try and make regional maps once I have a whole regions terrain to work with.
    //Anna
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    Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:52 am  

    My view tends to follow that of Crag and Cebrion. Even at the beginning of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer it is noted that some of the information may not be accurate due to its means of gathering. This leaves it open to the DM as to what is to be incorporated into his or her campaign and what is just baseless rumor.

    Any introductory document for players should have the barest in detail since at first level with respect to the entire flanaess the PCs are most likely fairly ignorant of anything outside there direct sphere of contact. Any characters with knowledge skill should have approriately additional information as the skill would dictate.
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    Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:22 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The way I'd do it...


    Sounds like a very good article that could be written for Oerth Journal, maybe a special edition. Five or ten folks here (not me, I'm slow enough on what I do without adding more...sorry Crag!) could knock out part of it, and create a definative, editionless guide, for fans, by fans. We all know WotC won't do it, or if they do they'll mess it up. A paragraph or four on each topic, maps, etc.

    Just seems like it wouldn't be a project that couldn't be done.

    And to answer Crag and Cebrion's points, yes I agree, exploring the world is the best way to learn it, but I know for me getting into Greyhawk I stared at the book, wondering where to start. Luckily Anced focused me into the Sheldomar, and I found my favorites in there. Only now, as I've gotten a good grounding, and good grasp of the geography can I now begin to work beyond that narrow focus. So yes, its best for someone to learn the world by adventuring it, its better if their DM, who may be new, to have easy to reference resources, and a single well written guide book would do just that. Especially one that doesn't focus on the fiction and the movers and shakers, but rather on what adventurers can do, and who they can interact with.

    Just my two cents though.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:53 pm  

    I think that the detailing of a few otherwise bland or obscure places and creating a very easy and lightweight setting would be a good place to start. SlimyKuotoan's complaint was (and to some extent is) my complaint, and those that helped start the Gran March project. That was it's sole purpose, to give an easily digestable setting to a new DM and a jumping off point for adventuring in Greyhawk.

    Now, the GM Project has gotten long delayed, and grown all out of it's original proportions. But, I think that part of the magic of GH is not knowing it all, but knowing that you can go North, South, East or West and there is someting, even if it is only a few details with which you can start. Yet, with this said, there is plenty to make up on your own.
    Novice

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    Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:14 am  
    Long Post for first time intro and topic...

    This is my first posting in response to a topic; it is long as I am telling about myself for the first time and also describing the level of effort I put into the game when I play. I am addressing also the subject of the complexity of GH to the newcomer-- I am uniquely qualified to do this since I have played since I was 8 years old (1976) with my brother, but was only 'introduced' to the World of Greyhawk for about 6 months several years ago when I played again for a while...

    *********************************** edited
    I am new too. Found this thread which addresses my interests, as well.

    I started with D&D a long time ago (Since about 1976, Cebrion- when it was the Chainmail and Eldritch Wizardry, etc., booklets... That's before they were printed in paragraphs...). I then played shortly a while back, just as 3.5 was coming out. I don't actively play now; can't find a game around here and prefer 'old-style' to the kids that kill everything with "+40 Universe Destructor Blast Swords"... In forums like this I am finding more serious players that view the game and the game settings as more like history-- It is more 'realistic' and the history is developed, studied, etc. I feel that grounds the game- fantasy still needs to be believable...

    When I played more recently I was then introduced to GH, very briefly. The established history did not turn me off tho' yes it is very very developed. It was interesting to go from mostly made-up scenarios/mileues (spelling?), to a setting that was 'established'.

    I have a homemade book that I compiled from diff. sources that fleshes out the history of a character from homeland climate to personal likes, fears, hobbies, etc. I have 78 diff. tables and subtables that generate the background of a character, or your initial ability rolls, for you to develop according to background-- however you wish to do it...

    I rolled a character that as examples had: "Family Economic Status: Refugee" and "Childhood Education: Multi-cultural" and "Teen Event: Arcane"... I ended up with a CH 18 [NS 28-point buy] Sorceress-- She is half gray elf (Spindrift Elven), half Suloise Human (Lendorian human). She was dispossed from the Suel Imperium, went to the Lendorian Isles with her mother and father; was run out of there for some reason ("Parents Lost"), and ended up in Alhaster-- A sorceress who was taught agriculture and cooking by a Halfling; who was mentored by an old Vetha woman when she reached puberty and her magical ability surfaced [Feats Polyglot, Precocious Apprentice], (who has learned Rhopan/Rhenee Cant as a result)... etc. etc. etc. --- [Now I just need some campaign in Greyhawk to play her in!]---

    My point being-- my characters are generated then I look at them and say 'how does this person exist. what's the story?'.... The world of Greyhawk gave me some excellent tie-in's to what I had already rolled as character background- I could not have had my character fit in so well without the established Greyhawk history.

    I totally agree, that for newcomers they should not be inundated-- but perhaps that is what sets apart the true gamer from the kid who just wants to 'try some new game'(also the diff. between the person who does a pencil and paper D&D game vs. the one who gets 'too bored' because it's not all electronics and shoot 'em-ups, who can't do 'logical' thinking to take a character thru a scenario-- who don't have a clue how to "play" a character that isn't computer-generated with parameters and buttons and 'cheats')...

    The true gamer can embrace the history as the new world they get to play in-- the neophyte may just give up. Not to be prejudiced or be mean or anything, but I think that the established history will be 'encountered' by the new serious gamer as they go along... You don't have to grasp the whole world at once! The others prob. will not care to get into it all...

    My character was rolled and I 'studied' the stuff I had access to to try to find a fit, and did- with the wide variety offered by the established GH world. In playing, Melee will start out in whatever town that campaign is in, and tho' she has a 'past' that she can relate to in 'Greyhawk's History', being a Suel refugee, etc. (-- I saw another post about 'Refugee Committees'; was kinda' interesting given my character generation)- that is the 'made-up' part, the fantasy part of the game. Tho' my background was rolled, I fleshed it out with 'story specifics' to fit GH's parameters, nationalities, etc. ["Refugee", became 'family a refugee from the Suel Imperium', e.g.]--

    I LOVE her 'past' that I came up with to 'explain' the rolls-- it dovetails so neatly with the GH campaign world... (Maybe some details aren't 'correct', but I did what I could with what I had-- I then would submit that to a DM that will correct and adjust to put her in his specific [Greyhawk] campaign, and she'll start out and hopefully not die, all 4 hit points of her :).... I have a really great character WITH 'character'- that to me is like seeing a character born for real-- it's rolled, and like real life -you get educated and experiences shape you, etc.--- Melee was rolled, and those 78 "traits" I do shaped her- but she would be nothing without a world to live in.

    I think if someone starts a GH for newbies or provides an "edited" version, it should not become anything "different"; if it's for gaming, get their character, generate the background however you like to, then see where in GH that character should go, as DM... Or, if you are approaching this topic as a pure exercise in the "new person coming in being overwhelmed by the 'complexity' of GH", then maybe keep in mind that history majors often are just majors in AMERICAN History, or MEDIEVAL History, or even more tighter in scope (don't you remember your American History 1700-1800 and American History 1800-Present, classes? :) )

    I think that anyone joining GH for the first time should be made aware of the absolutely fantastic! opportunities within this created world--- as a DM who does his campaigns and adventures/dungeons from scratch- it is extremely taxing to come up with a history and setting, etc., from nothing, let me tell you! (i read another comment about the conferences where they said the 'background' wasnt' enuf)...

    Well- GH gives anyone- DM or Player, plenty of background. You don't HAVE to know it ALL--- just pick what part of the world YOU want to live in, and let your DM worry about assimilating the rest of the 'world' into what he presents to you in the campaigning... I myself love history, so when I can get more into the books, etc. I will enjoy it. Wish I could teach D&D at school... I'd be great at it tho' out of the loop now for quite some time.... LOts for me to catch up on, and I love to read how it's all developed....

    The trick is to- if you are a player- just figure out where you want to fit into it all. If you are just doing this as your hobby- keeping up with Greyhawk, and 'living' it- then you can either try to know everything (a doctorate in History), or you can 'specialize' (Professor of the Suel Imperium 1800's to Present :) )....

    Everyone's post says prettymuch what I've said here. I think having the history does keep players from starting out as bs artists if the DM reviews the character background and 'edits' to fit into his genre/whatever, appropriately... I am totally new to this site and don't know much/remember much from what I read on Greyhawk but am interested in pursuing getting my Melee (that is her name) into a campaign... Anyone in DFW area in Texas?


    Last edited by MeleesCreation on Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:41 pm  

    There is this thing called a "paragraph". For the love of all that is holy, please learn how to use it. Wink
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:33 pm  

    Just Cebrion way of welcoming you to the forum MeleesCreation. Laughing

    By your second post too; you should feel honoured Wink
    Novice

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    Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:27 am  
    Question on the subj.

    1. What in the forum's opinion could be said to be the one best or most comprehensive existing Greyhawk world 'book', or package, to provide a DM with a comprehensive game setting for a "Greyhawk Campaign"...?

    Is this forum actually making up an introductory GH manual that's "better"?

    Thanks.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:43 pm  
    Re: Question on the subj.

    MeleesCreation wrote:
    1. What in the forum's opinion could be said to be the one best or most comprehensive existing Greyhawk world 'book', or package, to provide a DM with a comprehensive game setting for a "Greyhawk Campaign"...?


    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

    Quote:

    Is this forum actually making up an introductory GH manual that's "better"?


    Not presently.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:36 pm  

    There have been several threads about which GH products have the most "meat" or which are the top 10 "must buys". But not necessarily from a beginners perspective, i.e. as a introduction. If there's interest i can provide the links to them.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:16 am  

    Yay! Thank Delleb for the invention of the paragraph! :D

    I've mentioned possibly creating an FAQ for those who are new to GH that has some basic information, and lots of links to all sorts of Greyhawk information. This would take a lot of work though to dial it in very nicely, so in lieu of that here is another idea:

    I may start a sticky thread called "Greyhawk FAQ" where people can post their own info as a way of helping out those new to the setting. If a question keeps coming up all of the time on theforums, we'll move it to this thread and post the question and the best collection of explantions answering it. The thread would only contain informational posts, so anybody who posted something like "This bit of info was very helpful to me! Thanks!" would be deleted. If you wanted to thank somebody for posting something, then you would PM them instead. This is not to be unfriendly in any way, but to keep the thread purely informational. I've seen this format used to great effect on other forums, and it could work here too for Greyhawk info. Another good thing about this is that somebody can confine a search to just this single thread(I think), and therefore anyone should be able to find what they are looking for very easily once the FAQ grows in size.

    What is everyone's opinion on this?
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:58 am  

    Start small and dont worry about the big stuff for months. Start them in Hommlet and all you need to understand is Furyondy, Iuz, Celene and the Kron Hills. Start them in Lendore Island for Bone Hill. Start them with the Whispering Cairn from Dragon and all they need to know Diamond Lake (and Greyhawk).
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:11 am  

    From the "Where to start?" thread on WotC old Greyhawk boards:

    Quote:
    Much information from The Adventure Begins is available on this site
    This site has some material from FtA and some hard to find articles on Greyhawk gods from polyhedron magazine.
    The Greyhawk Compendium also has some great info (and a very nice layout!)


    When you're starting to expand your collection and want some guidance, check out the following threads on canonfire:
    Which Modules(accessories) make for the best Canon
    Essential 2E Greyhawk products.


    And don't forget to get the free stuff:
    A House on Summoner Court by Roger Moore (2E adventure)
    WGR7 Ivid the Undying (2E, a gorgeous pdf version of the unpublished accessory by Carl Sargent)
    (2 different covers available here)
    Living Greyhawk Journal 0 (3E, introduction to the Circle of Eight)
    Duicarthan's Greyhawk magic item conversions from Greyhawk Adventures (3E)
    The Living Greyhawk Deities pdf


    More free stuff:
    http://ulmo.mux.net/greyhawk/wizards.html (2E)
    Canonfire download section
    Novice

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    Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:26 pm  

    Thanks- I'm going to see about getting the Gazeteer asap---

    and I think the idea of a 'sticky thread' for the FAQ's is a good idea/

    'Later. I have to catch up on my summer class and need to get some basic GH info in and will be perusing this site for interesting questions or to get mine answered-> It's just for me to start learning the setting as not in any campaign. May just start my own and post on campus for players... Anyway, thanks for the intro and opinion on best place to get started; I'll be around. c
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    Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:17 am  

    I know this post is a little stale/not active recently, at least until I just bumped it, but I have some ideas for future queries in regards to this dillema. Greyhawk is a bit intimidating and I guess I just don't work the way some people do because until I read this post as I was perpelxed as to why Greyhawk didn't sustain. I guess because it's a bit like an advanced history course on the collegiate level, or at least seem to most. There are some serious upsides to story driven campaigns if you are willing to do the research, but I digress.

    I say your players were actually on to a very good start for new players/gamers in the World of Greyhawk, The Free City of Greyhawk itself. There are persons from all over Oerth in the Free City and it is an excellent locale to introduce your players to snipits and tidbits of the various cultures, societies and religions in the Greyhawk Campaign. They can meet person(s) and those person(s) can give small recounts of where they come from, how they got to The Free City and such through their back stories. If your group keys in on one particular idea then you do some research, and this site and links from it are rich with content, some campaign based and some believed to be canon, and you can illuminate your campaign more thoroughly that way. You could also justify research of the players by way of the many libraries and religous organizations in The Free City as well. Let them help you decide what interests them and get them involved. Don't be intimidated by all the particulars, that is what feeds your story. Pick something and go with it and the rest will fall into place. Have fun!
    CF Admin

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    Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:20 am  
    What The LGG Is

    slimykuotoan wrote:
    Living Greyhawk Gazeteer... No pictures, no crunch, but rather pages and pages of convoluted history lessons made me feel that I've returned in the late hours to a party I'd never really been invited to.

    Hey, all. Just a quick note about the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. First, it is a gazetteer, as the name indicates. By its very nature the LGG is a guide to the Flanaess providing lots of information for a D&D campaign set in the World of Greyhawk. Second, the LGG was the RPGA's introductory publication for the Living Greyhawk shared world campaign. I think the LGG met and exceeded both of those goals.

    When the original poster talks about pictures and crunch, he is looking for a campaign setting book, which the LGG is not. As many of us are painfully aware, Greyhawk never had a singular campaign setting book in the 3rd Edition era. Some may consider the general core and supplemental books of 3rd Edition as Greyhawk. That notion has merit as Greyhawk served as the core setting for 3rd Edition.

    Anyway, just wanted to clear up what the LGG is and is not. I think it is a must have for any D&D player, and it is certainly for the Greyhawk fan.

    Don (Greyson)
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    Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:33 pm  
    Re: What The LGG Is

    Greyson wrote:

    As many of us are painfully aware, Greyhawk never had a singular campaign setting book in the 3rd Edition era.


    This is a very important point. I would go further and venture that 2nd Edition never saw a proper campaign guide either. One of the major reasons for GH's discontinuation in 94 was probably because new players didn't know where to start. The new rules were ushered in with a clumsy hardbound and the can of worms known as Fate of Istus. It wasn't until a highly unusual war game/accessory/boxed set changed the face of the continent that FtA attempted to reconcile ten years worth of publications.

    As my introduction to GH, FtA was so confusing that I didn't start a campaign for months. The Campaign Book doesn't make any sense without the CoG box. The history section in AotF describes in vague detail an abridged version of the GH Wars booklet. Half of the nations in the Cyclopedia chapter are destroyed and can't be found on the foldout maps. The entries for places like Almor are of no use to a DM without understanding what the land was like before some undead creature destroyed it.

    MeleesCreation wrote:
    1. What in the forum's opinion could be said to be the one best or most comprehensive existing Greyhawk world 'book', or package, to provide a DM with a comprehensive game setting for a "Greyhawk Campaign"...?

    For me, it was the '83 boxed set. The histories and updates in later publications make a lot more sense after starting at square one and seeing what the world was like before everyone got their paws on it. Even if you can only find the main Guide or the 1980 Folio, they will answer a lot of questions.

    txwad wrote:
    Start small and dont worry about the big stuff for months. Start them in Hommlet and all you need to understand is Furyondy, Iuz, Celene and the Kron Hills. Start them in Lendore Island for Bone Hill. Start them with the Whispering Cairn from Dragon and all they need to know Diamond Lake (and Greyhawk).

    Definitely. From the Gygax stories I've read, it seems all of the early GH campaigns started with a town and a dungeon. Against the Cult of the Reptile God and the Saltmarsh series are also good options in addition to those listed above.
    The City of Greyhawk is a great setting but throwing players into the most heavily detailed area in the Flanaess was intimidating when I was new to GH.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:28 pm  

    I used the AD&D Box Set: The City of Greyhawk. I did some preliminary reading, found some interesting NPCs and built up from there. I pulled out the map and let the players kind of feel their way around. Granted if you don't have access to similar materials it may be difficult to try and do this. I guess I should have made mention of that in my post.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:43 pm  

    I started in the late 70's myself and in the early 80's started driving Over-the-Road (trucker). Much has changed since my day too. Mad

    But it needs to be remembered that you're entering an established world, one shaped by the Twin Cataclysms. There has to be some Official Canon, or the world won't hang together. None of us can "replay" thousands of years of history. Sad

    Greyhawk is the Center of the Flanaess. Compare it to our world. All markets, the world over, dance to the tune played by Wall Street, a.k.a. New York. Witness the current chaos. Laughing New York is our Greyhawk.

    Use the city of Greyhawk as your starting point. All kinds of tales, legends and rumors are floating around in that metropolis! Your players hear of something and Wham! they're off! Happy

    Inspite of the LGG, much of the rest of the Flanaess is blank. Nothing definite is known. There's talk of that all the time here on Canonfire! I, myself, plan on developing certain portions of the Flanaess, filling out some of the missing pieces. Many who know me think I have some talent of that sort! Embarassed (What some people will believe!) Happy

    Oerth has plenty of room for growth. Just my thoughts.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:38 pm  
    Forcing the Adventure Path vs. Letting the Players Explore

    I haven't actually played in about a decade and my friend just told me how he was frustrated with my campaigns. I was the only one DMing "Basic." He told me that he hated Basic because all it was start a module and finish a module, calculate XP, and start the next one in order. That surprised me because Mystara is huge! I had no idea he felt that way.

    My problem as a DM was that I was a kid that didn't have money to buy every module. So I'd buy a new one, read it and use it for the next game. If my players went off the map, I didn't know what to do. I couldn't fathom that wandering around in a wilderness setting that would probably get the 1-3 level characters killed would be any fun because I didn't have any specific encounters with monsters and treasure set up. Boy was I wrong. They wanted to go wherever. They probably would have mapped the Known World. I could have made sure that random wilderness encounters for 4-16 level characters could be tamed down for the 1-3 bunch. It's about having fun, not about following the letter of the "law." Dang, I would do things differently today. Had I handled things differently, they might have stumbled on the Shadow Elves or the Hollow World. Not that I had money for all those supplements at the same time then, but I could have given them the opportunity to find out there was a world instead of making them feel forced into a particular type of adventure. And this bunch definately wants to do what they want to do without caring if I had a detailed map. A good DM finds a way to improvise to keep the game going.

    So, my advice is, if they want to get from Hommlet to the City of Greyhawk, let them try. For you, don't worry about knowing every detail of Greyhawk before they get there. Just have something (or keep them lost until you have more). Gygax seemed to indicate that he would just have his next encounter appear at the next place they were and that's where on the map it would exist. I think I got that from an article someone wrote about him after he died and the article guy was telling his story about how him and a friend got to play D&D at Gygax' house.

    You should have seen me when I had B1-9 going and they weren't taking any of the clues/hooks into the modules. I threw out the X1 hook with the map. They were experienced gamers and said, "No, I don't want to go all the way to the Isle of Dread and get stuck on an island of Rakashtas!" I started the beginning of X2 (because it doesn't matter where you are. I forgot to think about what was in the box before I said it out load. I told them their mule died in the fog and the only way out of the fog was the castle in front of them. Well, they didn't have a mule and knew right then it was X2 I was starting. They wouldn't go in the castle even if the poison gas seemed to kill them. These are the guys that don't want me to read the text in the box. Make your description of the encounter natural to you. These are good lessons for a DM. Our best DM of the group didn't have these problems.

    At one point our best DM asked one of the players if he'd want to run a tavern. He got out the map of Greyhawk and asked us where the player wanted it. Then it turned into a strange but fun way of having the action come to us. Theives in the party were trying their best to steal and kill without attracking the law. It was great fun. And if we ever wanted to go somewhere, we'd go. He didn't care if the encounter came from Greyhawk cannon, some third-party undead caldera module, or a one-nighter undead beholder encounter from "Dragon." Man, we never ran from anything. But that night when us three players running one character a piece were ransacking some old crypt and saw that undead beholder come out of it's hiding place in the underground crypt, I felt like I was running for real while I was sitting in my chair!

    As I recall, my character got slowed by a little eye. Another character was killed by lightning from a little eye. Another character was levitated from a little eye and the character started shooting arrows. I was slowed again.... Then it got closer. My character was slowed again. I think the archer was slowed but kept shooting. Then my character got blasted with something and died. And just before the archer could get enough arrows into it (we had damaged it before this point with something), the levitation spell was canceled and the archer fell to his death. All our characters died and it was probably the most fun we ever had.

    ...And no we weren't using characters that we'd been playing for five years or that might have sucked a little.

    Sorry if this post went a little long.
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