Not long ago, I was reading an old post of possible Oerth Journal submission topics, and found several that I thougt was interesting. With this in mind, I have been writing an article on Tzunk, Yagrax and the Isles of Woe; a myth really, and in the process I found that the Isles had risen again!!! Is is just me, or is an event like this a important enough to make the rounds in someplace other than an isolated adventure? An adventure that is restricted to persons from only one state/region?
As a student of history, the whole Canon/Non-Canon discussion generally leaves me unphased. In a world the size of Greyhawk, with as many regions and cultures, anything can be ascribed by an invetive DM to rumor, myth or misinterpretation. I constantly take my Greyhawk campaign away from the core Living Greyhawk works/sites, and then I bring it back to the fold. The Living aspect of Greyhawk enriches my game in many ways, and few of my story arcs are World Shaking.
I have been exploring Greyhawk since '79, and was trying to piece togeather the world from the articles and adventures before there ever was a set. (It was a suprise to my whole group when there were no Borderlands in Greyhawk.
I have enjoyed all of the changes that it has gone through, and I have owned every edition (Unfortunatley I lost all the original boxed sets, books, modules, etc., in the Georgia Flood of '94). The Greyhawk wars were unexpected, but the end product worked so well that I have no complaints, until now.
It seems to me that if the civilization which diiscovered the Codex (?) and was home to Vecna (?), etc., suddenly rises out of the (Neutral non region) waters of the Nyr Dyv, someone other than those in Furoyndy should know. Does anyone disagree?
If a rock arose, with a few ancient ruins, and it made for a 1st level adventure, maybe no one would care. But the little information posted seemed to imply that the Isles might return. I feel the Triad has overstepped their bounds, and no one noticed. In a living world (and all the members of Canonfire/Greytalk/Oerth Journal made it living long before the Official Living Campaign) such changes should be rare. We all invest our time in creating our little alternate corner of this little place. I was once asked by a professor, "which is real, a unicorn or a cnidaria? Everyone in the room can tell you exactly what a unicorn is."
I think, in this Real world of Greyhawk, the rise of the isles would cause severe concern in Greyhawk, Furyondy, Urnst, Dyvers, and even in Iuz and the Bandit lands. They would not summon adventurers to investigate; they would summon armies, navies, and the Knight Protectors.
I will end by asking, do these type changes occur and I have just missed them?
PS In the newest Gran March story line, i am suggesting to the triad a that a gnome inventor in the City of Greyhawk invent Atomic, and accidentally wipes the city out completely, and then the Nyr Dyv and the Wooly bay would be one. Thoughts?
It seems odd the lack of responce you've gotten ? ?
I for one dont give the LGG much salt IMC though oddly enough I also have the Isles on the rise after a strange turn of events involving the codex. I was until now unaware that it was being delt with - or rather - not delt with by the LGers. Like you I think that the LG is best for enriching my own campaign. As for the Triad they can fall off the edge of the Rift for all I care.
PS In the newest Gran March story line, i am suggesting to the triad a that a gnome inventor in the City of Greyhawk invent Atomic, and accidentally wipes the city out completely, and then the Nyr Dyv and the Wooly bay would be one. Thoughts?
LOL. That is a brilliant strategy and would make a good villainous plot actually. One time IMC I had a rogue Malenti (Sahuagin/Sea Elf) wizardress plot to flood the Oerth by opening a vast gate to the elemental plane of water. Oh ya. Changing the landscape can be a hoot when its a personal campaign. For a world wide campaign like LG its a bit touchier making broad stroke changes. Isles of Woe, Tenh, these are non-regional areas too. All one needs to do is find the parts of the map that don't belong to a specific Triad to guess where the next big shakeup will be.
I am not a big follower of LG either, except to say that it is a very nice resource. Quite honestly it gives signficantly more online info than even this great site. Everytime one of my characters wishes to strike off in a new direction, I just go to the Region site and bam!!! Maps, current history, politics, undercurrents, etc. It makes me look much smarter than I actually am.
If for no other reason than this, I hope Living Greyhawk continues. IMHO, it is much better product support than publishing regular adventures. Those I can get from dungeon, other D20 publishers, or make them up on the fly. Living Greyhawk allows me constantly updated material to work with in my game. If I mention it this week, I can reference it again in a year.
It is still my game, so If I want to eliminate Greyhawk in a burning flash of atomics, so be its. But all of that said, this is different. To date, the world of Living Greyhawk and the Greyhawk of Canonfire have remained similar, if not the same. Each of our indavidual Greyhawks may change, but not the base, not the works that are discussed so exhaustively as canon and not canon on this forum.
Is it just me, or is this not a major change in the WOGH. One that I do not think most Greyhawk fans will accept. Imagine for a second that not only do the Isles rise, but they are populated with wizard priests, who conquer Greyhawk, put the city to the torch, and build back a stronghold named Wuuh. Now we have a World of Greyhawk without the Gem of the Flaness... The World of Wuuh.
That seems to be the amount of thought going into this particular series of events... it's "wouldn't it be cool if," factor overwhelming good sense. Maybe there is nothing to worry about, but a little bit of madness is not usually a cover for good rational things to come.
After reading all the posts, mine and others, I realized that I was very unclear as to what my concern actually is. There fore I will clairfy -
A recent Living Greyhawk adventure, from the Furyondy Triad, I believe, has the Isles of Woe rising. The hook seems to be that Furyondy wants to keep the isles secret, and sends a group of adventurers to explore. Though that is all I know, it seems that there must be some pretty powerful creatures/peoples there to warrant mid level pc's visiting the islands. And it seems that the other nations would be very upset that such an event was being kept secret from them after spending two decades helping fight back Iuz.
Just seemed to be over reaching and globally important in my opinion.
The basic idea for the adventure, as described, sounds fine - mysterious island rises, may contain good stuff, let's try to keep it a secret until it can be explored by our guys.
The problem is in the choice - the Isles of Woe. The choice is evocative of the setting certainly. Likely, this is why it was chosen; it immediately resonates. And that is the problem. Just any old adventure won't fit the Isles of Woe. You invoke the Isles of Woe with their history within the setting and you have to deliver, or you cheapen the setting by some measure. And if you deliver, the effects are going to ripple well beyond Furyondy.
It seems this is a case of trying to make a sound adventure uber cool by invoking Greyhawk legend. If the adventure is cool, it doesn't need the Isles of Woe hook.
What happens in LG is LG, of course, and is of no nevermind to almost everyone else not in the LG. The greater point, I think is the danger of too lightly invoking Greyhawk's legends. If the Isles of Woe rise, Dragotha returns to dominate the Bandit Kingdoms, Tharizdun shows up to claim the TOEE, Vecna's empire is reborn - all to be defeated by the PCs in the course of a few adventures, what have you got left when you are done? You had some cool adventures perhaps but you have burned through some useful material that could have been better used in the campaign than just for a simple couple of adventures.
Raising the Isles of Woe, or any other invocation of legend, is fine - if you plan it out and intend the campaign consequences. But to just add spice to an adventure or two? I will pass on that.
You all got that right. The Isles of Woe raising in the Flanaess would have the impact of Atlantis raising on Earth. Everything would STOP, every war, every sport and all people would be glued to what just sprung from the water.
Mortellan & GVDammerung... thanks, you hit exactly what was bothering me about this. I wasn't clear but that it exactly it. In order to serve a simple adventure, they raised Atlantais.
A recent Living Greyhawk adventure, from the Furyondy Triad, I believe, has the Isles of Woe rising. The hook seems to be that Furyondy wants to keep the isles secret, and sends a group of adventurers to explore. Though that is all I know, it seems that there must be some pretty powerful creatures/peoples there to warrant mid level pc's visiting the islands. And it seems that the other nations would be very upset that such an event was being kept secret from them after spending two decades helping fight back Iuz.
Just seemed to be over reaching and globally important in my opinion.
One time IMC I had a rogue Malenti (Sahuagin/Sea Elf) wizardress plot to flood the Oerth by opening a vast gate to the elemental plane of water.
Whoa! So Zendrelda ISN'T crazy? Go figure.
Yeah, could you imagine a great flood? Zendrelda's lighthouse, White Plume Island, RiftTrench, the Lortmils with beach front property, Hesuel Ilshar at sea level!
It was Nyrond. I apologize. It is a mulit part series. I have pasted the relevent sections from the Nyrond Site.
"CORS2-02: Isles of Woe
By: Chris Tulach, Jason Bulmahn, David Christ
Scenario Rating: [4.03] (51 reviews, design: [4.02] balance: [3.84] recommend: [4.22])
[If you login, you can submit a review on this scenario]
RPGA: Scenario Play History
Played: 236 (22.87% of All)
Lost for untold ages, the Isles of Woe have resurfaced deep within the waters of the Nyr Dyv. The legends say little about the mythical Isles, but one thing is certain. The Isles were a place of powerful magic and even more powerful enemies. What caused their mysterious disappearance in the pre history of Oerth and perhaps even more importantly, what has caused them to return? For Characters Levels 6-8, although adjustable for characters 4-12. This event has a playing time of approximately 16 hours."
COR3-02: Return to the Isles
By: Chris Tulach
APLs: APL2, APL4, APL6, APL8, APL10, APL12
Scenario Rating: [3.17] (56 reviews, design: [3.14] balance: [3.09] recommend: [3.27])
[If you login, you can submit a review on this scenario]
RPGA: Scenario Play History
Played: 288 (27.91% of All)
The eerie words of a decrepit seer lead you back to the mysterious Isles of Woe, now an ominous landmark of the mighty Nyr Dyv. Somewhere deep within this ancient dark tomb lies vital information concerning the destruction of Tenh and possibly the key to sparing other countries from a similar fate. An adventure for foolish mortal characters of APL 2-12. Part three of the Ether Threat story arc. "
COR3-10: Sepulcher of the Wizard-King
By: Jason Bulmahn and David Christ
Premiered: Origins
APLs: APL6, APL8, APL10, APL12
Scenario Rating: [3.55] (38 reviews, design: [3.37] balance: [3.63] recommend: [3.66])
[If you login, you can submit a review on this scenario]
RPGA: Scenario Play History
Played: 177 (17.15% of All)
Deep in the lands of the Old One is a tomb long forgotten. Sealed deep inside a labyrinth, behind powerful wards and terrible guardians, waits a guide to defeating the hordes of ether creatures infesting Tenh. Deep within the dungeon is part of the most powerful mage ever to walk the face of Oerth. A 2 round event, part 4 of the Ether Threat story Arc. For characters levels 6-12.
There are other adventures, but they can be sought out by the interested at https://www.nyrond.org.
If you would be so kind, please explain the difference Core v. Non Core. I thought, in a living game, the point was that when one tugs a thread over here, it is felt overthere too.
I am not a big follower of LG either, except to say that it is a very nice resource. Quite honestly it gives signficantly more online info than even this great site. Everytime one of my characters wishes to strike off in a new direction, I just go to the Region site and bam!!! Maps, current history, politics, undercurrents, etc. It makes me look much smarter than I actually am.
If for no other reason than this, I hope Living Greyhawk continues.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
I got almost as much stuff from the LGH sites (specifically the Yeomanry Yahoo group) as I did from anywhere else on the web. I don't use all of it, but there's a lot there.
If you would be so kind, please explain the difference Core v. Non Core. I thought, in a living game, the point was that when one tugs a thread over here, it is felt overthere too.
Thanks in advance.
Here's kinda how Core vs Non-core works. As a disclaimer, I am not a Triad member(Control Regional scenarios/conventions) or a Circle member(Control Living Greyhawk- (world)wide events/scenarios/conventions), so I don't know the details of how everything works.
Core scenarios are controlled by the Circle, and can be in some sort of story-arc, or they can be one shot adventures. Usually, they are located in some epic area(such as the Isles of Woe), or have some epic event attached to them (such as the aftermath of events from the Isles of Woe ).
Regional scenarios are controlled by the individual Triads, and occur within the borders of their regions. We had one module in my local area -Shield Lands- where we travelled to the slopes of White Plume Mountain. I don't think the local Triads can use legendary areas like WPM except in, say, just mentioning them...?
Core mods can be set anywhere, can start/end in any region(I believe).
Of course, throwing a wrench in the explanation... Something new that they came up with last year, is the concept of Meta-regional mods. These are somewhat between Core and Regional mods. Don't have time to say any more today though.
Any Triad members want to enighten us further? Andondson, I'm looking at you!
Thanks. So, if I understand correctly Core Modules are specifically Not to be interpreted as affecting world events?
Rather, they are fun places to go for the players, but will not affect balances of power and other transnational events?
Perhaps I misrepresented the core modules. There are Core story arcs that can affect the world, globally.
Some things about Core modules:
-Are *usually* set in regions not controlled by the Regional Triads. There are some regions set aside for Core only(Such as Greyhawk City itself, and -I believe- the Duchy of Tenh).
-Can be ordered and played anywhere in the world.
-Can (probably) affect the Regions.
Regionals:
-Can only be ordered by someone actually living in that Region, except at Conventions, where out-of-region people can judge(probably for need of judges)
I don't think Regional plots/events spill over into other Regions. Maybe they could if both Triads were to agree on something and went through the Circle...
-Chad
"Always willing to talk about Living Greyhawk", but-
"Doesn't know that much about the Triad/Circle/Regional/Core relationship"
In the Living Greyhawk World, the Isles of Woe have arisen, and are actively being explored?
If this is so, then Living Greyhawk has just diverged dramatically has it not? Regardless of which side of the Canon discussion you fall out on, this is a major change.
Am I correct, or am I misinterpreting something here?
The Isle rising would be like Atlantis rising on Earth. If that would occur countries would vie for its control, treasure hunters would gather around it , world media would be watching 24-7, and religious cults would all be arriving seeing it as a sign.
IMC this would be no different. If the IoW rose again it would dramatically change the dynamic of the Flanaess. All nations on the Nyr Dyv would stake a claim. Others farther out would still send representatives to see what they could glean from them. Religious cults would descend on the area for obvious reasons. Populations would shift and grow around Nyr Dyv ports, boats would multiply significantly despite the dangerous waters. The Rhenee would make a fortune by transporting people. Sages would have a field day. The biggest change would be adventurer focus away from GHC. Greyhawk City was partially built on the boom caused by the amount of buried treasures within its domain. If an entire island of ancient treasures were just across the hills in the Lake, GHC would see a decline I'm sure.
Of course, as opposed to being a grande place to go see and adventure, it could also be a dread realm where trespassers (even those of Mordenkainen-esque stature) ran the risk of certain death.
Given this version, then you could have Isles of Woe rising from the depths, and nothing really changing in the world dynamic beyond a few casualties when they were first investigated.
Another idea is that no sooner have the Isles arisen, than they sink again. (Or maybe Tenser transports them to some personal demi-plane for his own study? ;) ) _________________ "... ,and the world was made brighter thereby."
In the age of television, CNN would tell us that the Isles were dangerous, stay away. In the WOGH, I doubt that the rumors of death and destruction would be nearly as desirable or repeated as the wonders that could be found there.
I cannot imagine a situation in which this would not be world changing unless it was cordoned off and information very tightly controlled, or as ecla pointed out, they rose and fell.
If the new canon says the Isles of Woe have risen, watch me sink it.
Belvor only thought it was the IofW, It was really a rhenee illusionist scaring off a war patrol so his bargemates could loot recently sunken merchant ship. Or it was the backside of a venerable dragon turtle, or it was a new sinking isle that has sunk again, or it was a dream of the drunken watchman that the drunken captain agreed with and thats what damaged his hull honest. etc.
I agree Anced_Math no reason to use it, effects entire flaness.
Next Keoland will have a visitation from the wind dukes of Aquaa, they are in a cross dimensional battle with Al'Akbaar over in Zeif and need the Invulverable coat of Arnd that's just been found on the Isle of Woe!
If they are into power gaming there is so much in the underdark,underwater and under their noses they should really wake up and smell some imagination.
In the Living Greyhawk World, the Isles of Woe have arisen, and are actively being explored?
If this is so, then Living Greyhawk has just diverged dramatically has it not? Regardless of which side of the Canon discussion you fall out on, this is a major change.
Am I correct, or am I misinterpreting something here?
Here is part of what I found Googling for this thing -
[/quote]The eerie words of a decrepit seer lead you back to the mysterious Isles of Woe, now an ominous landmark of the mighty Nyr Dyv. Somewhere deep within this ancient dark tomb lies vital information concerning the destruction of Tenh and possibly the key to sparing other countries from a similar fate. An adventure for foolish mortal characters of APL 2-12. Part three of the Ether Threat story arc.
Quote:
Some of the dumbest sounding ideas can make for great adventures but most live down to their dumbness.
Max level is 12th for the Isles of Woe? Tenh is "destroyed?" The Isles of Woe are a "landmark?" This sounds like Six Flags over Greyhawk - an amusement park for munchkins to run around in and be "heroes." Vecna in a dunk tank? Iuz running the Tilt-a-Whirl? Mordenkainen coming out of a tiny car followed by all of the members of the Circle of Eight in floppy shoes?
Makes one want to violate the admonition against profanity. I doubt Living Greythawk can long survive this time of treatment of the source material. If this is ever "canon," it is right up there with the Rose Estes novels.
If the new canon says the Isles of Woe have risen, watch me sink it.
You're too slow. New canon sunk again them before you.
Muscles wrote:
If they are into power gaming there is so much in the underdark, underwater and under their noses they should really wake up and smell some imagination.
Care to make uninformed claims much? If you don't mind that you look bad, okay.
But back to the topic, the whole reappearance of the Isles of Woe did affected the whole Flanaess of the Living Greyhawk campaign. The whole story unfolds over many Core adventures, but only a few ever take adventurers to the Isles.
It began with a LG Core mod called Echoes (I believe) where hints were dropped about the events to come. I never got a chance to play it, I am remembering that something happened there that unleashed what became known as the Ether Threat. The next mod was Escape from Tenh, where PCs are in Tenh and witness beasts from the deepest corner of the Ethereal plane invade Tenh, reducing everything to dust as they go. Escape from Tenh was one of the most heavily criticised mods of all in LG, not for game play reasons, but for the wholesale destruction of one of the most favored nations with no discernible reasons. (It is explained later why, but most LG'ers still don't much agree with it).
As the Ether Threat storyline proceded, regional triads were asked to include appearances of Ether creatures in their mods to highlight the Flanaess-wide impact of the story. The Isles of Woe also rise, except they are total ruins. There was a special event Core mod called Isles of Woe, 3 rounds/12 hours worth of adventuring on one of the Isles, where PCs hear the isles have reappeared in the lake, disrupting everything. PCs go to explore, and learn there is a connection between the reappearance of the Isle and the arrival of the Ethers. This one special event on the Isles were brutal, I know of many PCs that died playing the event.
Many of the later Ether Threat series deals with taking what is learned and trying to send the Ethers back to where they came. A lot of what I played was a blur, I've played so many LG adventures. But like I said, one more Ether Threat mod brings PCs back to another Isle as they are beginning to sink again.
Another point, APL 12 does not mean that it is capped at 12th-level characters. LG mods are written with different challenges based on "Average Party Level". So the mod with APL 12 encounters has encounters that are suitable challenges (supposedly) for well balanced parties that average characters levels at 12. But still, parties who have APLs higher than 12 can still play, they just end up playing a mod with encounters that are no higher than that appropriate for a party of 12-level characters. Besides, when the Isles of Woe appeared, the Maximum level of characters allowed in the LG campaign was with the APL 12 limit, so having the APL 12 limit was superficial, there were no characters in the campaign that couldn't play it.
But back to the whole Isle of Woe/Ether Threat plotline, in the LG canon, it has been resolved. The Isles came and went, but could come back again. Every early canon reference to the Isles were played upon in the LG story, (Yagrax, Tzunk, Codex of Infinite Planes, etc.). Could they have been done better to please the non-LG'er? Dunno, but maybe, I would have had things unfold differently, but I have no complaints on "poor use of prior canon" in the series
First let me say, if you hadn't read my comments on your maps, that your work is superlative.
It has been several years since I've searched for D&D info online. I have only been on this site 3 days, and It's been a treat. I know next to nothing of LG and every scrap of info on the subject of the Isles I got from this 3 week old thread.
Several posters seem dismayed at the thought of an 'atlantis' rising and irrevocably changing the face of their world, I was showing how easy it is to disregard or modify such drastic changes. I assure you, I'm not slow. As for uninformed, well, I admit as much this is why I qualified my assumption of powergaming with 'if'.
My main concern is canon. If LG nyrond raises lowers 1 small Isle for a 1 off, will LG furyondy raise another that stays?, and what of the myriad other special places nonLG DM's around the world have developed? Is the future of Greyhawk for LG only? This is the second point in my post. Is the can of worms open on all these special places? LG keoland dicovering the secret cloud city of the wind dukes or reactivating their spaceship? It's not that I mind others creating fun adventures, its that it becomes canon. And when LG runs its course and is bought by yet another, all the info and maps and changes will be ready made into the new greyhawk version 4.0
The final point I was making, is that there is no need to use up the special myths and places. Developing the underoerth,underwater, forests and skyscape, can expand the world and challenge the greatest of heroes. Not to mention all the new artifacts and storylines and new myths that could be and most likely are being created.
I resisted for years, the whole Iuz invasion. I finally relented even though it meant I let go of some extensive campain material in the bandit kingdoms and tehn. Perhaps I'm being unfair,but I treasure my greyhawk campain(20+yrs), and sweeping changes of myths and landscapes concern me deeply.
My main concern is canon. If LG nyrond raises lowers 1 small Isle for a 1 off, will LG furyondy raise another that stays?, and what of the myriad other special places nonLG DM's around the world have developed? Is the future of Greyhawk for LG only? This is the second point in my post. Is the can of worms open on all these special places? LG keoland dicovering the secret cloud city of the wind dukes or reactivating their spaceship? It's not that I mind others creating fun adventures, its that it becomes canon. And when LG runs its course and is bought by yet another, all the info and maps and changes will be ready made into the new greyhawk version 4.0
I pointed out in an earlier post that the Circle controls the major events such as the Isles of Woe module, I'm sure the seperate Regions cannot meddle with major locales/events without approval. (and I doubt it rarely(if ever) happens)
Eric explained the situation much better than I could. I never read the Isles of Woe module, just played through it. And it was epic- around 12-14 hours, it took us. Apparently, it was just one *single* isle, and it sank afterwards.
Quote:
The final point I was making, is that there is no need to use up the special myths and places. Developing the underoerth,underwater, forests and skyscape, can expand the world and challenge the greatest of heroes. Not to mention all the new artifacts and storylines and new myths that could be and most likely are being created.
Muscles
Wouldn't it just be called "Generic Dungeon Campaign" if it weren't able to reference some of those myths and places, instead of Living Greyhawk? Being set in Greyhawk is the main reason I have played LG for the last 2 1/2 years.
My main concern is canon. If LG nyrond raises lowers 1 small Isle for a 1 off, will LG furyondy raise another that stays?, and what of the myriad other special places nonLG DM's around the world have developed? Is the future of Greyhawk for LG only?
OK to answer that, you need to know a little more of how LG works. As you know the LG Flanaess is split into regions, each assigned to different portions of the real world to develop and play. These regional plots generally deal with local events within a realm and cannot generally stray outside the limits of the region. Regional plots are managed by the regional triad with the oversight of the Circle.
In turn the regions are grouped into 5 metaregions: The Great Western Road (Velverdyva/Tuflik trade route), The Sheldomar Valley, Iuz Border States, Nyrond and neighbours and the Splintered Sun (Ahlissa and Iron League). Each metaregion has its own metaregional plots that span the borders of the member regions, but stay within the confines of the metaregion.
Then there's Core scenarios, which tend to be set in nontriad regions (such as Tenh or the City of Greyhawk), though they can just as easily happen anywhere (with the agreement of the local triad and the Circle).
All these three types of plots are generally overseen by the Circle, who try to keep some sort of internally consistant LG canon. So the situation you describe just wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) happen.
Quote:
This is the second point in my post. Is the can of worms open on all these special places? LG keoland dicovering the secret cloud city of the wind dukes or reactivating their spaceship? It's not that I mind others creating fun adventures, its that it becomes canon. And when LG runs its course and is bought by yet another, all the info and maps and changes will be ready made into the new greyhawk version 4.0
In general the Circle tries to rein in more fanciful events and plots. There's plenty to discover and explore in the Flanaess as written without bringing in whacky stuff.
Quote:
I resisted for years, the whole Iuz invasion. I finally relented even though it meant I let go of some extensive campain material in the bandit kingdoms and tehn. Perhaps I'm being unfair,but I treasure my greyhawk campain(20+yrs), and sweeping changes of myths and landscapes concern me deeply.
home campaigns have always been where the GM rules supreme. Don't like the GH wars? Don't have them then. However in terms of a campaign or a viable setting, having a steady unchanging state just doesn't work. Dynamic change is part of every world and setting. Some changes are good some bad. At the end of the day its up to the GM at the coalface what he wants to cherry pick for his home game.
Okay, I understand now the framework of LG. Thanks for the explinations. I went to their website. I followed links. I left emails of the 2 listed DM's in my state. I saw their board hadn't been updated in a year. I'm not expecting replys from those DM's. Anyway, I am open to new ideas and you should know that I'm glad you both are enjoying the greyhawk setting.
Lordsloth writes:
Wouldn't it just be called "Generic Dungeon Campaign" if it weren't able to reference some of those myths and places, instead of Living Greyhawk?
I don't believe so. Exactly what dungeon campain was there before greyhawk? Extensive socio-political information, as well as a cast of characters and maps is where we all start our campains from. And I would suggest that destroying Tehn is not merely referencing material.
Woesinger writes:
However in terms of a campaign or a viable setting, having a steady unchanging state just doesn't work. Dynamic change is part of every world and setting.
Here we disagree completely. This goes well beyond my above comments into a festering boil about the path followed by the various companies multidirection price gouging then abandonment that I prefer not to delve into, believe me I could.
Suffice it to say that for 5? some odd years there was no support, nothing published. I ask you, did Greyhawk dissappear? Was it suddenly not played by tens of thousands in that unchanging state? Of course not, many online sites kept exchanging info, and DM's did what the game IMO was designed for- used the rough draft of greyhawk and expanded it into their gaming lives, buying non-oerth shattering modules to help them on their way. Moving a world through time is a decision IMO to sell more product.
If the classic core players did not keep playing in a 20 year old world and turning new people on to greyhawk, then there would be no marketshare to capitalize on for LG. LG would not exist without all that has come before and IMO should look thoughtfully at the nonconforming veterans before they destroy anymore nations like Tehn.
As to the destruction of Tenh in LG, I'd watch that particular space carefully in the next few months....
P.
Hey Woeslinger,
You bet I will, Keep us informed if you would.
As I said my local LG is kind of down. I am suprised at all of the support of LG, so I won't discourage any 'new blood' coming into the world. Like I said I like the free exchange of ideas. I haven't felt the need to once again, 'upgrade' To d20, as I've said, so surly, my predudice against change to my world from 2e is apparent, and unfairly giving LG its due. Many folk are getting tuned into Greyhawk because of LG, And if they can manage to not destroy my world, I might eventually, switch to d20. ( Hey, how would y'all like to convert to a 3d6 only system). I have a heavily modified 2e, which has elements from chainmail to 1e, 2e, arcana, battlesystem, and someother published works, along with my own, leveling and xp and magic world and my twists with war gameing troop battles. Tehn is still a hard swallow, 'cause I was refitting some tehn adventures to the 'new' stonefist occupied fist lands, but I had a whole 5 leveling campain set in tehn about the troll fens(which I sort of translated into Barrow Downs. meets trolls,) But as we've all said"It's the DM that sets the tone of the game".
I understand the intent. I certainly don't begrudge anyone having whatever they define as fun. But all explanations and understanding to one side, this use of the Isles of Woe continues to strike me as swatting flies with a sledgehammer.
Without rehashing things, the Isles of Woe are now "used up" in Living Greyhawk." Been there (to that legendary and feared place) and done that. And if they rise again? That makes them a "jack-in-the-box" kind of thing and everyone survived the first rising in any case.
And if Tenh is somehow "reborn" or "saved," that just makes the whole setup for the rising of the Isles of Woe that less memorable and special. Turns out the rising of the Isles of Woe was not that big of a deal in the final analysis.
Using the Isles of Woe would be fine, IMO, if it was throughly planned for and thought out. I get no sense of that here.
I am no fan of Iuz but he was used to maximum effect. He conquered an empire when he finally cut loose and the effects are still being felt. The described use of the Isles of Woe does not strike me as maximumly effective.
It strikes me as a cheap, unimaginative quick strike for a "big" event more concerned with having a "big" event that with anything else.
If people had fun, good for them. I am unpersuaded, however, that the DMing that went into the decision to raise the Isles of Woe was anything above a grade-school, "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" kind of thing. Maybe things will get better when Tharizdun is successfully summoned to Oerth by the Scarlet Brotherhood and an average party level of 12 puts him down after he has destroyed Keoland. This would fit the Isles of Woe pattern which follows the Rose Estes Greythawk model of having Mika Oba kill Iuz with a knife.
Living Greyhawk has given Rose Estes new life in Greyhawk Canon! And they said it couldn't be done.
Maybe things will get better when Tharizdun is successfully summoned to Oerth by the Scarlet Brotherhood and an average party level of 12 puts him down after he has destroyed Keoland. This would fit the Isles of Woe pattern which follows the Rose Estes Greythawk model of having Mika Oba kill Iuz with a knife.
Living Greyhawk has given Rose Estes new life in Greyhawk Canon! And they said it couldn't be done.
Now sir, steady on there! :)
Granted the Isles of Woe sequence (or more exactly the Ether threat portion of it) might not have been the best thought out, but comparing it to the Erotic and Erratic Adventures of Wolfboy is a bit of a stretch. :D
As for lasting effects - not to give away any spoilers, but are you aware of what happened at the end of the arc? Let's just say a certain artifact fell into the hands the last person you'd want to have said artifact. The Isles might be gone back to where they belong, but the effects will be felt for a loooong time and not just in Tenh.
Speaking of which, would you rather Tenh remain a sterile wasteland? Isn't the deaths of 150,000 Tenhas and the destruction of some of the most fertile lands in the Flanaess enough of a wow factor for you? The return of the Isles is supposed to herald woe and destruction and if what happened in Tenh isn't that, then I don't know what is.
Which just goes to show, you can't win. Half the world is up in arms because Tenh got vaped. The other half is peeved because it didn't get vaped enough. :)
Alright, my opinion of LG... I think it is great. I personally think that this is the best support that could be offered. Like myth and legend in general, the whole of GH gets written out in broad soft strokes that are easy for any home DM to change, and still not vary too far from the general consciousness of GH. Instead of a core item that must be purchased, and will only be available for a limited time, the story just builds. Start far in the past and run your game forward, as long as you wish, and the road will continue to open before you.
However, I do not have time to go to may sanctioned events, and the local Triad never returned any emails any way, except one to tell me that I did not understand LG (wow sherlock, could that be why my letter had all those question marks in it?).
Thus, I have always felt that it was an excellent companion to the World of Greyhawk, as long as it was a little methodical, and avoided WG7 types of work.
I do not like to be critical, but I have to agree with GVD, this seems poorly thought out and gave little bang for the buck. Yes, LG should not be banned from toying with core material, but I have to believe that there was a better way to do it. I gather, though that you agree somewhat Woesinger. Every system has glitches, but this should have (I think) had a little more editorial review. I did not know about the Etherial nemesis gig, and to be honest, I do not think I want to know any more.
It does remind me of those early highschool years, when we though a good plot was blowing up something bigger. Woesinger, I guess what bothers me is that LG and GH in general will not be known by the steady high quality work it produces, it will be know by the gaffs (nb WG7 above and in a dozen or so threads on this site and others.) The group that will comeback is a) hardcore LG players, and b) people like me, dedicated GH fans who generally like what the Triads produce.
I can overlook the Isles of Woe (I have no choice), I will act as if I never heard of the etherial invasion of Tenh (I wish I hadn't) and hope that LG continues to be the strong resource and trove of ideas that it always has been. I know that LG did not create their sites for me, but we have not played GH for 20+ years for them. We are in it togeather it seems, and I don't think it would be to hard, or even too much to ask, for all of us to make the best of it.
I have to say though, I want to go to that theme park. Imagine Zagyg's Funhouse.
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