I have finished reading The Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer (PCG) by Greyhawk alumnus Erik Mona and am struck by just how easy it is to identify the “steals” that went into making up the campaign setting. YMMV but this is my count:
Azlant - Atlantis. Less obviously, the Azlanti survivors to the east harkens to Robert E. Howard’s use of Atlantis in his history of the Hyborian Age.
Kelesh - Persia.
Tian Xia - China.
Vudra - India.
Absalom - Lankhmar by way of the City of Greyhawk.
Andoran - Greece. Backwards. Real history goes Greece, Rome, Byzantium. PCG goes Byzantium, Rome, Greece. See Cheliax and Taldor.
Belkzen, Hold of - The Pomarj (Greyhawk) or any other Orc realm.
Brevoy - The Hold of Stone Fist (Greyhawk) meets the FtA era Hold of the Sea Princes where everyone dies overnight (Greyhawk).
Cheliax - Rome. With a double reverse twist. Rome had Republic and Imperial periods. Cheliax has godfearing and diabolic periods. Also Rome begat Byzantium. PCG Byzantium (Taldor) begat Rome (Cheliax).
Druma - The Ferenghi (Star Trek DS9) and the Bajorans (Star TrekDS9) combined go medieval.
Galt - France during the Revolution. Que the Scarlet Pimpernel Adventure Path.
Geb - Aerdi undead (Greyhawk) meet Jakandor (TSR) undead meet Magic the Gathering -Urza vs Mishra = Geb vs Nex.
Irrisen - Baba Yaga Russia meets Iggwilv’s Perrenland (Greyhawk) with a nod to Birthright (TSR) Land of the White Witch
Isger - No clear parallel
Jalmeray - India/Ceylon/Serendip
Katapesh - Lankhmar’s Bazaar of the Bizarre as a country
Kyonin - Elf realm - Celene (Greyhawk) or most any other elf realm (Birthright, Realms etc.)
Lastwall - Shield Lands (Greyhawk)
Linnorm Kings, Land of the - Viking barbarians, Barbarian states (Greyhawk) etc.
Mammoth Lords, Realm of the - Quest for Fire, Clan of the Cave Bear, 10,000 Years BC, Land That Time Forgot etc.
Mendev - Warhammer fight against Chaos
Molthune - Germania (Roman Province)
Mwangi Expanse - Every pulp Africa cliche you can shake a stick at
Nex - Axum meets Magic the Gathering’s Urza vs Mishra with a nod to Dark Sun (TSR) in the interior
Nidal - Any shadowy, shadow magic kingdom meets Hellraiser
Nirmathas - The Vesve Forest (Greyhawk circa FtA) as a kingdom
Numeria - Dave Arneson’s Blackmoor
Osirion - Egypt
Qadria - Arabian Persia Palmyra
Rahadoum - Any atheist realm
Razmiran - Any false god theocracy
River Kingdoms - The Bandit Kingdoms (Greyhawk)
Sargava - Freed colonial possession, Rome meets Africa
Shackles, The - Caribean or any other pirate isles
Sodden Lands - Mosquito Coast and ruins move to Africa
Taldor - Byzantium via Atlantis to beget Rome (Cheliax) to beget Greece (Andoran)
Thuvia - Land of the Lotus Eaters (Odyssey) meets the Fountain of Youth
Ustalav - Ravenloft (TSR)
Varisia - Gypsy adventure land
Worldwound, The - Warhammer
This isn’t a criticism of PCG. PCG has a nice sense of fantasy historicism that does much to stitch together what could otherwise be a crazy quilt of borrowings. However, and this is a criticism, so many of these lands scream Adventure Path and not much else - prime example Galt. As a nation state Galt makes little sense but as a site for an Adventure Path it has an obvious utility. This raises the question - is Golarion primarily a means to set and sell Adventure Paths or is it primarily a place for DMs to set their own campaigns?
I like Golarion after only Greyhawk but I know Greyhawk and Golarion is no Greyhawk. It is too obvious and too obviously on the make for Adventure Paths. Greyhawk is firstly a DMs setting, not firstly an opportunity to sell adventures, although it ended up doing so. I prefer then Greyhawk but Golarion is second only to Greyhawk in my estimation as a setting. Second place isn't bad. _________________ GVD
Well, I haven't bothered to get any Pathfinder stuff but I suspect you are overly harsh in some of those things. Its not really possible to be entirely original. If those places are all transparent pastiches, then I'd say its a poor product. If they are just inspired by those things but are interesting in their own right, its not a problem.
Anyway, the real reason I posted... If you read any of the comments made by Erik and the other judges in the RPG superstar 'create a country' section, its pretty clear that they view the function of a country as a base for adventure, nothing else. Many of the entries were ripped for their over use of 'history no one needs or has a use for' and other dry boring stuff. What they wanted was a wizbang "image" and lots of hooks for adventures. So you'd expect that they would use that approach in their own writings as well.
Did somebody say that Golarion is Greyhawk? It is not - It is Golarion and has the merits of two adventure paths (with a third around the corner), almost two dozen adventure modules and several supplements that provide abundant distinctions.
Vormaerin wrote:
If you read any of the comments made by Erik and the other judges in the RPG superstar 'create a country' section, its pretty clear that they view the function of a country as a base for adventure, nothing else. Many of the entries were ripped for their over use of 'history no one needs or has a use for' and other dry boring stuff. What they wanted was a wizbang "image" and lots of hooks for adventures.
I'd add that James Jacobs had made regular posts indicating that all of Golarion's nation/states have myriad themes and concepts so that any DM can have a place for his campaign themed. So yeah, you have places that are like Ravenloft, or your countries like Chaliax for someone with a Midnight Setting, etc., so that there is somewhere in Golarion to drop your themed campaign.
So, there are wide ranging themes in Golarion on purpose. I can take Eberron and make a list of Golarion analogies, too (Belkzen is the Shadow Marches, the Worldwound is the Demon Wastes, etc.).
I think that the nation entires in the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer are so short that they beg to be adapted and developed by the enterprising DM. They cry out for exploration from private gamers entirely separate from the Pathfinder Adventure Path. Of course, the latter needs a home. It stands to reason that Golarion is the sandbox for Paizo's products. Something wrong with that?
I am setting Wizards of the Coast's Scales of War on the border of Nirmathas and Lastwall, as an example of using Golarion outside of anything related to Pathfinder. We are playing in Golarion to specifically get away from Greyhawk. None of the players in this group even bring up any 'Hawkisms of the setting, seeing Golarion's diversity as a wholly separate effort made to accommodate the wandering gamer.
I have finished reading The Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer (PCG) by Greyhawk alumnus Erik Mona and am struck by just how easy it is to identify the “steals” that went into making up the campaign setting. YMMV but this is my count:
*snip GVD's extensive list*
I didn't see *cough* Orcreich in there anywhere. How about a little love for Orcreich? Can I get an amen?
No matter how hard you try, its hard to intentionally avoid cultural analogues in medieval fantasy settings. I am actually glad Golarion sticks to what people are comfortable with because a setting too alien takes special dedication in players IMO. Like Darksun for example.
Golarion is decidely non-niche(Darksun). It provides many themed lands, but some of that seemed a bit too obviously quilted together like a technicolor dreamcoat of fantastical genres. Not a bad place to run amok in to be sure, but I'm kinda iffy on lace wearing Scarlet Pimpernels from Galt running around among fur-clad barbarians from Melthune or cave men from the Realms of the Mammoth Lords. Some people might like that though. Lots of opportunities for cool art though. :D
I could be wrong, but I thought smillan was making fun of the lack of originality that is in some Greyhawk stuff. ie "Yeah, some of the Golarion stuff is goofy, but do they have an Orcreich?"
I could be wrong, but I thought smillan was making fun of the lack of originality that is in some Greyhawk stuff. ie "Yeah, some of the Golarion stuff is goofy, but do they have an Orcreich?"
Yeah, plus I just love to riff on Orcreich. To actually respond to the issue at hand, while the world-builder in me reacts negatively to the kitchen-sink approach I think the idea of giving every DM something they can dig into is an interesting one. Many gamers will like it. Others like myself will find it too distracting and "goofy." To be honest though, in the last two GH campaigns I ran it couldn't have mattered one whit to the players if the inhabitants of some faraway country were made of marshmallow fluff, because they were probably never going to go there. But that's mainly to do with my style and how I normally run a campaign.
Did somebody say that Golarion is Greyhawk?
I'd add that James Jacobs had made regular posts indicating that all of Golarion's nation/states have myriad themes and concepts so that any DM can have a place for his campaign themed. So yeah, you have places that are like Ravenloft, or your countries like Chaliax for someone with a Midnight Setting, etc., so that there is somewhere in Golarion to drop your themed campaign.
Don (Greyson)
With all the themes and concepts, I didn't see Six Flags, Walt Disney World or even a Jelly Company with a theme park (although, the Bizarre of the Bizarre nation may count). Some other world wonder locales other than "the Center of the World" - which does seem like a rip-off from old Great Kingdom (they are the center for time keeping and prime meridian) esp. when you don't see the whole map to see what other places may be out there (I'd hoped to see an entire map of the world, so that we wouldn't be having the Aquaridian debate with Golarian).
OK I know that was just silly. But you all laughed at Buck E. Kat's halfling shirt (I love that comic strip and the myraid D&D references).
In His Path and Glory We Follow,
Theocrat Issak of the Church of the One True Path of Pholtus _________________ Theocrat Issak
If you read any of the comments made by Erik and the other judges in the RPG superstar 'create a country' section, its pretty clear that they view the function of a country as a base for adventure, nothing else. Many of the entries were ripped for their over use of 'history no one needs or has a use for' and other dry boring stuff. What they wanted was a wizbang "image" and lots of hooks for adventures. So you'd expect that they would use that approach in their own writings as well.
I did not know this. It is sad.
Erik Mona has obviously learned little from his study of Greyhawk. The "boring" nations" serve a very valuable and specific purpose - they give the individual DM someplace to place their game in the context of the setting without necessarily changing the setting or necessitating a mastery of greater setting details. "Boring" nations are starter kits of a sort.
At the same time, some "boring" nations add verisimiltude - not every nation is going to be excitement central in any realistic world.
If Golarion has a fault, and it does though not a fatal one, it is that it is panting in its descriptions of most nations, too eager to say "run this sort of adventure HERE!" It is in this way obvious and pushy. Maybe that's what Mona believes is necessary - gamers must be told how and where to run their games. In this way, Golarion is not subtle.
Still, I think Golarion the best world since Greyhawk, but it is no Greyhawk. _________________ GVD
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To actually respond to the issue at hand, while the world-builder in me reacts negatively to the kitchen-sink approach I think the idea of giving every DM something they can dig into is an interesting one. Many gamers will like it. Others like myself will find it too distracting and "goofy." To be honest though, in the last two GH campaigns I ran it couldn't have mattered one whit to the players if the inhabitants of some faraway country were made of marshmallow fluff, because they were probably never going to go there. But that's mainly to do with my style and how I normally run a campaign.
