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    Canonfire :: View topic - But I want a map...and a wand of fireballs!
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    But I want a map...and a wand of fireballs!
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    From: Nyrond

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    Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:05 pm  
    But I want a map...and a wand of fireballs!

    I need help. In one of my campaigns, I have players who get very frustrated b/c they can't have a map of the world. They want their characters to have world maps so they can know where everythingis and the political situation of every country. My view is, "mas are valuable and there hasn't been anyone who has actively sought to map out the world and distribute those maps to commoners. Speaking of which, most people haven't travelled more than 10 miles from their villages."

    Then they also do the "Why can't we buy this or that? It's a common item. Clerics all over should be brewing potions and we should be able to buy potions of cure light wounds by the crate! And a wand of fireballs is easy to enchant and create. Why are there no magic stores? I hate your campaign, its magic poor!" I beg to differ my campaign is magic rich, it's just anyone who has magic knows how valuable it is. any help would be appreciated.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:03 am  

    Ask them this question:

    "If these items are so common, why aren't all of your own mage and cleric characters not churning out potions and scrolls by the crate? And, why aren't you selling them to whoever wants them?"

    Ahh-AHH-ahh! Maybe the term "common" is a relative one, and these items are not so common after all. They might be common among adventurers, but not among the regular populace. If the PCs themselves aren't churning out these items, what makes them think somebody else is?

    Never argue with the DM. Idiots. Laughing
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 09, 2004
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    Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:20 pm  

    Or...if you feel the need to bestow a lesson or too...methinks you should give them exactly what they ask for (bwah-hah-HAH-ha!) and see how they cope with the responsibility/consequences.

    For example, perhaps a local noble Lord had requisitioned a cache of potions/small magics/fine cloaks and tunics/etc from a nearby city/guild/wizard/church. He had already paid for the items to be made for him and his retinue at his castle because some local nasties have been plaguing his area and he wants his troops healthy and active. This cache was on its way back to the Lord when it met some mishap such as orks/hobgoblins/brigands looking only for gold/food/weapons. The guard on this wagonload was light so as not to draw attention to it. The guards and nasty attackers killed most if each other off, the few surviving nasties leaving with what little they could quickly grab and ran for it.

    Enter your adventurers! They come upon the wagon.

    Do they keep it? They could find themselves eventually being hunted by the Lord's scrying wizard's eyes.

    Return it to whatever Lord has his seal on the crate(s)? They could get a reward, sure...but they could also get roped into going after whomever attacked the wagon to begin with to recover whatever had been lost. Would they take this hook or simply count themselves lucky by having the wagon to themselves?

    Do they try and sell some of the stuff in a town/city? They could easily attract the eyes of local thieves and brigands who may begin to take notice of how your adventurers never seem to require the local medical services when they come back from adventures. And the local stablemaster may wonder what this group is hiding presumably if they think pressing a few extra gold in his palm to guard the wagon for them is sufficient protection. He may take a peek after awhile...

    Will someone take notice of the Lord's seal on the crates/wagon and alert the Lord? Or of the finely designed clothes the party may keep for themselves? Isn't that cloak exactly just like the one that noble-looking warrior is wearing...and why is he looking at you like that and starting to come towards you? Oh, the possibilities are there to have some wicked fun indeed...er...I mean the opportunity to help instruct the adventurers in the importance of appreciating such resources and the people who make them available, etc etc...

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
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    From: Dantredun, MN

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    Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:26 pm  

    HA! I see some exciting possibilities to make fun of your players.

    Did your players ask for a map of the world or a map of the Flanaess? (Keep in mind DMs didn't have a map of the Oerth until ten years ago and now that we do, I can't say we're much better off.) If they asked for a map of the world, give them a copy of Skip Williams' map from Dragon Annual #1 and let them see how useful it is traveling in the Flanaess. Laughing

    Other maps may be available, but they're mostly inaccurate or terribly outdated. If you have the time to draw one up, here are some ideas:

    1) let your PCs travel to the Keoland's "Poor March" only to realize it's overrun with humanoids and their map predates the Hateful Wars.

    2) their map is recent, but exaggerates the size, scope and influence of its county of origin. Even today, the Mercater world map inflates the northern hemisphere and shrinks central and southern continents. The most exaggerated GH maps would obviously be from the Great Kingdom (a map draw by one of Ivid's terrified cartographers may show "Ferrond" and most the rest of the Flanaess as vassal states) but any local Baron or Lord would no doubt exaggerate his holdings while minimizing his neighbor's.

    3) the map is increasingly vague and filled with superstitious warnings the further the party travels from the point of origin. If medieval cartographers wrote "here be dragons" on the edge of the known world, image the warnings one might include in a world where dragons really exist!

    Also note that if even the esteemed Cartographers Guild in Greyhawk City buys partial dungeon maps to resell after filling them with treasure and additional rooms, most mapmakers in the Flanaess should not be very trustworthy.

    As far as your PCs' appetite for magic, maybe it's time to a sidetrek to Lankhmar or Dark Sun. [/b][/i]
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:30 pm  
    Re: But I want a map...and a wand of fireballs!

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    I need help. In one of my campaigns, I have players who get very frustrated b/c they can't have a map of the world. They want their characters to have world maps so they can know where everythingis and the political situation of every country.

    Then they also do the "Why can't we buy this or that? It's a common item. Clerics all over should be brewing potions and we should be able to buy potions of cure light wounds by the crate! And a wand of fireballs is easy to enchant and create. Why are there no magic stores? I hate your campaign, its magic poor!" I beg to differ my campaign is magic rich, it's just anyone who has magic knows how valuable it is. any help would be appreciated.


    We are constantly receiving more and more studies that show that High School graduates, in the United States, can't find the United States on an unmarked world map! Shocked

    Studies show that they can't find their own State on an unmarked map of the United States! Shocked

    I wonder how many of the 80/90 % of the illiterate population of Oerth can read a map? Shocked What are there in the City of Greyhawk, ten map makers? How much of the Flanaess do they have knowledge of? Confused Have your players make their own maps as they travel. Map makers would no doubt pay good money for them! Cool

    I wonder how many kids in our third world countries wish they had a computer (something your players take for granted)? Shocked

    I wonder how many of them even know what a computer is? Shocked

    Remind them of some of these real world facts and maybe they'll get the point -- maybe. Cool

    Just my thoughts. Happy
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
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    From: brazil

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    Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:34 am  

    you could say to them "guys, lets play less videogame!"

    ehehe...this potion stores are so typical of videogames
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:04 am  

    I could see one, single "magic store" in a Major City, like Greyhawk, or Chendl, etc. But it would be closely associated with that city's Magic Academy, where a plethora of varying types of Magicians are available. And the items would be fairly expensive. Mad

    And I would associate healing potions with temples, and not so much with "magic stores."

    While there would be magical healing potions available, they would tend to be much more expensive than the clerical varieties. After all, its a Cleric's business to "heal" people and tend their wounds. That's not a Magician's calling. Mad

    Healing is not the Magician's stock-n-trade. The "magic store," would typically specialize in other types of potions; Stoneskin, Magical Resistance, et al. Cool

    Just my thoughts. Happy
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
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    From: brazil

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    Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:50 am  

    since the subject is magical itens for sale....why dont we have as a commom item stones with continual light?

    easy to do, and very pratical!
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:21 am  

    Any such magical item would be available. Anything and everything . . . for a price! Happy

    I would simply limit the number of "magic stores" -- one for each Major City. And it would be operated by the City's Magical Academy. Since all types of magic are taught at the Academy, any type of magical item would be available there. You could even have a special item custom made . . . but, for a price! Mad Happy

    Yep! It would be expensive indeed! Mad But avaialable! Happy

    Yep! Just as soon as "you" (the players) kill that dragon and capture it's horde, you can go to Rel Mord and buy anything you want! Happy Its sooo easy! Laughing Cool

    Just my thoughts. Happy
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:04 pm  
    Mapping

    It's an interesting development. My first reaction is to give them an inaccurate map or ask them why don't they map it themselves.

    When I went to Ireland and was learning about Viking and Norman invaders, I also learned that if some stranger was caught wandering around the island without some way to prove that he wasn't a spy, he might be killed. The people knew if a foriegner mapped an area that person may be working for an enemy army which would use the map in their conquest of the area. So to protect themselves strangers were at risk of being killed outright. I'm sure the logic extends to more than just Ireland.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:54 pm  
    Re: Mapping

    Raymond wrote:
    My first reaction is to give them an inaccurate map . . . I also learned that if some stranger was caught wandering around the island without some way to prove that he wasn't a spy . . . working for an enemy army . . . strangers were at risk of being killed outright.


    Extremely interesting concept. Cool Nice POV. Wink

    Just as in the real world, the pople of Oerth are not, necessarily, "out to get you." Its quite possible that your players are given a map which has been drawn using "third hand" information. The map maker had the best of intentions, but things just work out that way. Mad

    Maybe you're mapping around Crabford or Greatwall. A patrol from Furyondy might think you're in the employ of Iuz, or vise versa! Shocked Yep! You're in real trouble now. Laughing

    Ahhh! Ingnorance is bliss! Happy

    Just my thoughts. Happy
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:10 pm  
    Trap

    Have them run into an NPC who says he's got a map for sale. The NPC can get with his group and have a map made up which leads your PCs into an ambush. "X marks the spot!" Smile

    I'm being silly when I think that the map could be from GAA (a group of magic-users making magical automobiles and encouraging travel)...Greyhawk Automobile Association.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:41 pm  

    "Hello? . . . GAA? . . . Yeah, . . . Look, about that map you sold me . . ." Shocked

    Gotta love it. Laughing Laughing
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:50 pm  

    IMHO, maps are necessary for the DM. If you run a 'continuous time' campaign. You need to be able to measure distances, and use speed of travel to determine how long a journey lasts.

    Good DM's 'borrow'. Great DM's steal! I always used Greyhawk with cut and pasted citys, modules and what not from other campaigns and even games.

    Now, this doesn't mean the PC's have access to the maps, just crudely made attempts by the cartographers of the period.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:08 pm  

    Rmack wrote:
    IMHO, maps are necessary for the DM. . . . Now, this doesn't mean the PC's have access to the maps, just crudely made attempts by the cartographers of the period.


    It takes work to be a good DM. You have to love the game. Wink

    There are some excellent maps out there, both "official canon" and home brewed, but you're right -- your players don't have to see them. Just draw out some crude designs to present to them and go from there. Cool

    Describe to them what they're actually "seeing" (based upon what you see on your actual map) and then have them make the necessary changes/adjustments to their "copy" of the map. Happy

    It will get them more involved in the game and fill them with the gaming "spirit." Happy
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    Master Greytalker

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    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

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    Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:42 pm  

    I used to have a few players who wanted magic stores. I had several of them robbed, but then I came up with another idea:

    Useless magic items!

    Well, not technically useless, but still not that great. For example, I gave them a magical Drow bracer that shot out a 50' strand of webbing which would attach to whatever it struck - in other words, it was nothing more than the equivalent of a 50' rope and grappling hook. The cost? I think I charged around 1,000gp for it. For a wizard character I created a mechanical owl (yes, like the one from Clash of the Titans) that became his familiar. Unfortunately, it became jealous of and killed his original familiar.

    The basic idea was to take something they already had or something they could easily acquire, and turn it into a much more expensive magic item. The end result? They loved it. Every character had about a dozen magic items by 10th level (not including "real" magic items like magic armor and such), none of which gave them any significant bonuses or advantages, and they considered themselves rich.

    A secondary effect of this was totally unexpected: some of the players became very creative. The one with the web bracer, for example, learned to use it to capture foes. He and the rest of his party devised tactics that allowed them to tie up enemies without any significant danger to themselves. Another looked for any opportunity to use his magical "fire sticks" (the equivalent of a tinderbox that never wore out) to start fires, and came up with several rather clever ways of burning/smoking out enemies.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    From: Nyrond

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    Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:00 pm  

    I like Bubba's idea.

    Another would be to load them up. Let your players buy it all... and then have them run into a trap with a Disjunction on it or a good old first edition monster... the Disenchanter.

    Had money, spent money to get magic items, lost magic items, no money for more. Guess they will have to get back to adventuring to find more money.
    GreySage

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    Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:07 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    A secondary effect of this was totally unexpected: some of the players became very creative. The one with the web bracer, for example, learned to use it to capture foes . . . Another looked for any opportunity to use his magical "fire sticks" (the equivalent of a tinderbox that never wore out) to start fires, and came up with several rather clever ways of burning/smoking out enemies.


    "Role"-playing, not "roll"-playing. And they had a great time! Shocked

    Gotta love it man. Happy
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:03 pm  

    Varthalon wrote:
    I like Bubba's idea.

    Another would be to load them up. Let your players buy it all... and then have them run into a trap with a Disjunction on it or a good old first edition monster... the Disenchanter.

    Had money, spent money to get magic items, lost magic items, no money for more. Guess they will have to get back to adventuring to find more money.


    The first time I ran a 3.5e campaign I really had a problem with magic items. I was using a published adventure series, and there happened to be a magic shop in town. Since I was still learning the system I ran everything as written, and before long the PCs could handle literally anything with their magic items. Their basic tactic became: scout out the next encounter -> run home to the magic shop with their order -> go blast the crap out of said encounter. Once they reached high level it was particularly bothersome. So I learned to do exactly what you suggest - I hit them with Mordenkainen's Disjunction or something similar every chance I got. The "disenchanter" from the 1e Fiend Folio became my best friend to the point that the PCs began to sweat anytime they saw anything that even vaguely looked like a four-legged animal. It was great fun.

    Oh - and in a later adventure I "accidentally" burned the magic shop down.
    GreySage

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    Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:13 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I hit them with Mordenkainen's Disjunction or something similar every chance I got. The "disenchanter" . . . became my best friend . . . the PCs began to sweat anytime they saw anything that even vaguely looked like a four-legged animal. It was great fun.

    Oh - and in a later adventure I "accidentally" burned the magic shop down.


    Man, you are just evil . . . EVIL! Evil Grin

    Bubbagump, the "Left Hand" of Tharizdun! Shocked

    Gotta love ya'. Happy
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    From: Nyrond

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    Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:57 pm  

    I had a particularly nasty DM when I first got into D&D in 1st edition. He was a great storyteller and had amazing plot arcs that lasted all through the eight years we played together, but he understood the perils of allowing players to amass wealth and magical power.

    Major treasure troves had a nasty habit of being self-destructive. For example: The first time we met Brazzemal (the red dragon in the Hall of the Fire Giant King) we had no idea he was there until we walked into his lair. Our chaotic-neutral (played as absentminded & self-interested) wizard took one look at the situation, rolled initiative, and teleported half a continent away… not bothering to take any of us with him. Fortunately by this time our party was use to this kind of behavior from him and had gathered other means for extracting the rest of ourselves from such a sticky situation and, putting our tails firmly between our legs, ran for it ourselves.

    Now our DM just tended to grin and plot with such behavior and over the next couple of years (real life years – decades for the characters) we would occasionally be attacked by assassins, draconic humanoids, and other monsters. We finally traced these encounters back to Brazzemal, he was rather put out that we had gotten away and occasionally sent a group of minions after us. We decided that we were some fairly powerful punks by this point, all most twice the level we had been on our first encounter, and could take a red dragon with some planning. So each player brought is main character, his back up character, all our NPC friends, and a minor clan of dwarves that owed us a BIG favor and raided the lair.

    Our DM decided that Brazzemal, as written, was no match at all of all that and so ‘upgraded’ him. He became a epic, spellcasting, ex-consort of Tiamat with a beholder familiar (not one of those cute improved familiar miniature beholder eye-balls looking things from 3rd edition, a full blown 1st edition beholder). One very long and epic battle later the four surviving (barely) characters staggered into the dragons treasure chamber and beheld the sight all adventures dream off: a literal mountain of loot.

    Almost everyone was ecstatic but we didn’t loose our heads, the rogue began to search for traps and the fighter and ranger (my character) scouted the chamber for other dangers. Unfortunately I meant it when I said ‘Almost everyone.’ Remember our party wizard? The wizard had survived as well and spotted a HUGE spellbook on a plinth at the very top of the mountain of gold, jewels, and magic items. Before any of the rest of us knew what was happening he had dimension doored to the plinth and grabbed the spellbook for himself. Unfortunatly the rogue hadn’t had a chance to check it for traps yet.

    The dragon's lair was in the heart of a dormant volcano. A volcano kept dormant by an enchantment on the spellbook which was cancelled as soon as someone other than Brazzemal touched it. Que a long and exciting scene of us fleeing for our lives through corridors, caverns, and old lava tubes and the four surviving party members barely managed to get out of the mountain before the lava overtook us. In our rush to get out before the entire mountain came down on us we didn’t even get any of the treasure. To add insult to injury, the eruption devastated a large chunk of the Yeomanry. Instead of being the heroes that rid the land of the dragon in bardic tales far and wide we became renown as the idiots that set off the volcano while getting a whole clan of dwarves and dozens of well-respected NPCs slaughtered in a fight with the dragon.

    Our DM did things like that to us occasionally to keep us relatively cash and magic poor and our character’s power levels under control. After the third time it happened (I believe it was after missing a trap in the treasure vault in the crypt of Lyzandred the Mad) the wizard only 'survived' because my ranger barely managed to find enough of his body parts in the resulting rubble for us to be able to put him back together and raise him from the dead, after that even the wizard began to behave with some caution around any piles of treasure our DM allowed us to find.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:46 am  

    Varthalon wrote:
    I had a particularly nasty DM . . . Major treasure troves had a nasty habit of being self-destructive. For example: The first time we met Brazzemal . . . We decided that we were some fairly powerful punks by this point . . . Brazzemal . . . became a epic, spellcasting, ex-consort of Tiamat with a beholder familiar . . . The dragon's lair was in the heart of a dormant volcano . . . Instead of being the heroes that rid the land of the dragon in bardic tales far and wide we became renown as the idiots that set off the volcano while getting a whole clan of dwarves and dozens of well-respected NPCs slaughtered in a fight with the dragon.


    That's just a bit "overboard," for my taste, a touch unnecessary, "overkill." Mad

    But it sounds like you had fun! Cool
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    From: Nyrond

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    Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:13 am  

    I was probably the most overboard we ever got... and it was something that we built up to for a long time (tons of research into fighting dragons, research into how to brew potions of protection against dragon breath weapons, divinations to try to find any particular weaknesses he had and such, trying to figure out if we could somehow take him by surprise And, yes, it was a blast.

    I don't think the DM would have made the encounter nearly as overboard except for all the effort and worry the players put into preparing for it.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:49 am  

    Varthalon wrote:
    . . . it was something that we built up to for a long time (tons of research into fighting dragons . . . how to brew potions of protection . . . divinations to try to find any particular weaknesses he had and such, trying to figure out if we could somehow take him by surprise . . .


    Sounds like a lot of wasted effort. I would have rewarded such effort, whereas he chose to take it all away -- you got nothing. That's why I think it was a little "overboard." But, that's just my two cents. Razz

    Varthalon wrote:
    I don't think the DM would have made the encounter nearly as overboard except for all the effort and worry the players put into preparing for it.


    If players are willing to put that much effort into something -- rare nowdays -- I reward it, not punish it. I would love to be involved in a game with players of such devotion. Cool

    Varthalon wrote:
    And, yes, it was a blast.


    Well, in the end, that's the most important thing. That's why you kept going back for more. "Please, sir, may I have another?" Wink
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    Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:15 pm  

    Varthalon wrote:
    I had a particularly nasty DM...


    I admit I've done similar things, but in my case mostly for players I didn't like. Remind me someday to tell you what I did to the player who bragged that his "37th level god" could beat any monster I threw at him.

    Snotty punk got what he had coming... Heh.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:23 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    Snotty punk got what he had coming... Heh.


    (*Bubbagump wipes off his envenomed blade . . . again*)

    (*[Pause] Or was that the first time? . . . He shrugs and looks for another target*) Evil Grin
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    Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:00 am  
    On the accuracy of maps, and whatnot

    To the discussion of who has maps, who doesn't and why, I would offer the following ... it is exceprted from The Adventure Begins, TSR, 1998. It goes a long way toward explaining - in character - about why there's no entirely accurate maps, let alone of the whole world.

    - Master Cartographer Jawan Sumbar
    Guildmaster of Cartographers, Free City of Greyhawk
    from An Inspection of the Nature of Oerth
    Jawan Sumbar wrote:

    But what is the appearance of the whole? This age-long mystery is slowly being resolved. It is a cruel irony that even tales that ring of truth, told by explorers who have conquered these trifles and set foot on the shores of alien lands, are not always believed. So many liars and charlatans prey upon public gullibility and hunger for knowledge of the world that it is impossible for common folk (and even those with access to magic) to distinguish between truth and illusion. The desire for fame is intense in the adventuring world, and some gain it by deceptive means. It is also understood that magical illusions are cast by wizards, monsters, or gods to conceal the existence of certain regions, and explorers themselves do not always share the same standards by which they measure the world. What one explorer would call a savage might be called noble and civilized by another. The existence of magic, monsters, and many deities some of whom are actively involved in affairs on Oerth - distorts even the most carefully documented accounts. "Magic," the priests of Boccob are fond of saying,"makes the world stranger than we could possibly imagine."

    Nonetheless, advances are made. An explorer of repute might deliver a map to our University that shows certain major features of the whole Oerth in common with similar past maps. Some adventurous souls claim to have flown over parts of the world by means of rocs, magic carpets, dragons, magical ships, winged boots, and so forth. Several wizards have created spells that allow them to spy down upon the world from on high, using spells similar to wizard eye or allowing the mages to see through the eyes of summoned elementals or genies. Once in a while, the gods pass along limited information through divination spells or wishes on the nature of the world, though these divine authorities are strangely reluctant to do so. And clever experiments have been designed that give us a very accurate idea of the size of Oerth without even leaving our homes.

    Over the centuries, we have accumulated many maps and tidbits of information, and the majority show agreement on certain points that we have come to regard as representative of our Oerth's true appearance. … though most are poorly rendered or labeled. (If all explorers could only be taught to spell!)


    Whenever I have had this issue come up with gamers ... whether or not in GH, I often ask them to read the sections that serve as the intro to The Adventure Begins. It gives them more of a perspective of the whole thing, and it's in language that makes it seem authentic. Especially since I use the whole Oerth in my game, and sometimes they want to know why Western Oerik doesn't know hardly anything about the Flanaess, and vice versa.

    Anyway, I hope that this little tidbit helps, and that you might be able to use it to get your players grounded in the setting.

    Icarus
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