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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk 7
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    Greyhawk 7
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:18 am  
    Greyhawk 7

    Rumor has it that, once upon a time, some gamer(s) approached Wotc and attempted to buy/license "Greyhawk" for 3-5 million dollars. Wotc, allegedly, turned them down or simply did not respond to their inquiry. This result is not surprising on multiple levels.

    Among other issues, simply put, "Greyhawk" doesn't exist in a form that can be sold or licensed. "Greyhawk" or what could be defined as "Greyhawk" is spread throughout any number of products, most of which do not bear the Greyhawk logo. I'm guessing this reality was readily apparent to Wotc but may not have been as apparent to the would be purchasers. I think there is another approach.

    Perhaps, Wotc could be approached and asked to sell or license the intellectual property rights to just 7 products, with a reciprocal license back to Wotc so that they may use the same intellectual property material during the duration of the license or after the sale.

    This approach would facilitate ease of sale definitionally and would remove any worries Wotc might harbor about having to parse material to identify "Greyhawk" they they no longer owned the intellectual property rights for. Wotc would still be able to use all "Greyhawk" material at the same time they would get paid for licensing/selling the right for a 3rd party to use or own this same material. In addition, this last fact should decrease the price since the rights purchased or licensed are not exclusive. Of course the buyer/licensee would have to be flexible in their thinking as to what they were buying/licensing.

    I choose 7 products because it is an easily managable number. It won't scare Wotc off by overreaching. If anything, it is underreaching, which could help persuade Wotc. In any case, however, what would the 7 Greyhawk products be that would be bought or licensed?

    This would be my list:

    1) The Living Greyhawk Gazateer - any deal that did not include this product would be no deal for me. This product is both the logical and necessary jumping off point to launch a Next Gen GH.

    2) The 83 Boxed Set - This product includes the information from the Folio plus more. While everything builds from this base, IMO, I would want free access to the original source material, some of which has not been reproduced in subsequent products like the LGG.

    3) Living Greyhawk Journal No. 1 - This product has the most extensive information on Keoland published to date. It more than supplements the LGG.

    4) The Scarlet Brotherhood Accessory - Love it or hate it, in whole or in parts, this is the definitive published word on the SB and on the Amedio Jungle and on Hepmonaland. If there would be any intent to revisit this material, expanding beyond the traditional Flanaess, rights to this material would be essential.

    5) Iuz the Evil Accessory - Love Iuz or hate Iuz as an NPC, he is an iconic GH villain and this is the definitive word published to date about him, his plans, his domain and his resources. If one wanted to expand or contract Iuz' role in a Next Gen GH, this product would be very useful.

    6) Living Greyhawk Journal No. 5 - This product has a detailed treatment of Zeif. Again, if one wanted to revisit or expand on the Baklunish West, rights to this product would be vital.

    7) The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth - This product is vital because it includes figures critical to GH's cosmology that are found collected nowhere else.

    These are my Greyhawk 7. I intentionally left out any product dedicated to the City of Greyhawk, as I get most of the information on the city in the the LGG that would be broadly necessary. The exacting detail of FtA or City of Greyhawk or The Adventure Begns, would not IMO be strictly necessary, given that I only have 7 choices.

    Anyway, what your your Greyhawk 7 be?
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    GVD
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    Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:41 pm  

    I’m not a person with much insight into legal or business matters but I think your approach to this issue is interesting and potentially promising.
    The key point you have seen is the fact that Greyhawk is so much integrated into D&D that a separation into a license are like you state practically impossible.

    Your suggestion focus on the sources and the rights to them, understandable considering the interest and debate of IP issues nowadays. I would suggest instead focusing on the goal with the licensing and take a discussion with WotC on what products to create.

    For example: License to produce and market a Greyhawk Campaign sourcebook, players guide etc. Detail what topics to include in each book. We could then use ALL WotC sources as a background for the products.
    WotC could use the same Greyhawk materials in other forms and shapes as much as they wanted in other products and our use wouldn’t interfere with their use, in fact they could benefit each other.

    My first gut response to this very interesting thread.

    //Anna
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:00 pm  

    This is an extremely hypothetical scenario, but I'd replace Tsojcanth with Fiendish Codex I for sheer utility.

    Better still, I'd expand the number beyond seven and include Greyhawk Adventures, the original DMG, Ivid the Undying, The Adventure Begins, and my own personal unicorn to ride to work.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:57 pm  

    If it were possible:

    I'd go with the '83 boxed set, ToEE, Scourge of the Slavelords, Queen of the Spiders, The LGG, Iuz the Evil and Greyhawk Adventures.
    Forum Moderator

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    Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:39 pm  

    Seven would be hard to choose. GVD's selections are smart but by no means perfect to advancing a GH agenda. The fate of paizohawk would be doomed in this scenario also wouldn't it?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:00 am  

    Hmm... I can't pretend to fully understand the legal constraints on licensing Greyhawk products. If I had to choose 7 (why not 10?) products I would choose those I feel are most iconic.

    1) 1983 Boxed Set
    2) Scarlet Brotherhood
    3) From the Ashes
    4) Iuz the Evil
    5) Ivid the Undying
    6) City of Greyhawk
    7) Greyhawk Adventures - hardback

    I had a problem with using modules and not using modules. What always set Greyhawk apart from Forgotten Realms or Dragon Lance is the modules define the setting, not the novels. The shared experience in Greyhawk is the modules you've played. Example: I play in a weekly FR 3.5 game. We just traveled through some mountains to Evareska. None of the players new anything beyond the White Dragon that Drizzt and his pal killed. On the other hand, if I was playing in GH and we traveled to White Plume mountain the stories would be about my adventures (and your adventures). Greyhawk players don't live through the exploits of a novelist. It's a game setting first and a novel setting second.

    I see modules as a vital part to defining Greyhawk. Looking at GH like this, the modules are more important than the campaign guides. The 1983 boxed set is rather light, giving DMs a considerable amount of leeway to direct their campaign. The good stuff comes from modules. I'm changing my list to make it modular Wink
    1) Temple of Elemental Evil
    2) Return to the Keep on the Borderlands - the best intro module ever rewritten.
    3) Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
    4) Against the Giants
    5) Descent to the Depths of the Earth
    6) City of Skulls
    7) Castle Greyhawk

    I would love to see Greyhawk released as a series of different campaign arcs. Each would cover a different area of mystery. Each would be open enough to allow several interpretations and solutions. Finally, each would be complex enough for reuse.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:03 am  

    The reason I chose 7 is because it is, I think, a manageable number that could be negotiated. The more individual products to be licensed, I believe, the more likely Wotc would be to balk or to ask for more money. My thought was to keep the whole project small seeming and thus inoffensive and so more likely to get approved. Certainly, if Wotc were open to licensing more products, that would be great.

    As noted, my list is my list and by no means perfect. Rasgon points out, for example that the Greyhawk Adventures hardback would be something to consider and I agree. It has all those places of mystery. FtA and its fading land list is another example. On any expended list, say to 9, I'd include both.

    While the suggestion was made that the Fiendish Codex would be a better choice than Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, I see two problems:

    First, it is not logoed "Greyhawk" which could raise some complicating issues in any negotiation. Again, my thought is to make this as simple a deal as possible for Wotc; the fewer things they need to think about the better. Conceptually, sticking to Greyhawk logo products works twoard this goal.

    Second, the Fiendish Codex is a relatively "new" product for an edition of the game (3.5) that is still being supported, although not by Wotc. This "newness" raises more potential issues. Again, my goal is to make negotiations as simple as possible. By sticking to "older" products (the LGG being the newest), I think the potential license appears more inoffensive to Wotc and less likely to be objectionable - after all this is "old" "out of date" material. At the same time, that very notion suggests that a license would be in Wotc's interest to the degree they would be seeing profit from material that is otherwise just gathering dust, so to speak.

    Anna is on to something. If Wotc were to balk at even the modest license I've outlined, there are some sweetners that could be offered to increase Wotc's comfort level.

    One, which Anna has identified, is providing Wotc with a specific product list of what would be produced under the license and incorporating this list into the license. Obviously, this ties the licensees hands to a degree that, ideally, I would think to avoid, but if it was the price of a deal, I think it could be negotiated. For me, it would not be a deal breaker.

    What would be a deal breaker would be, not a list of products to be produced under license, but a pre-approval clause. Such a clause would see the licensee have to make a product on speculation and only _thereafter_ be able to seek Wotc's approval to go to press. This would be burdensome for Wotc and worse for the licensee, who might have to endure long waits for approval or no approval at all, even after having prepared a manuscript.

    Another sweetner that I would include in the initial draft license would be a strict "morals clause," which Wotc has wanted in the past. Essentially, it requires the licensee to avoid certain sexual, religious, and racial issues. IMO, this is perfectly acceptable as the intent is not to be offensive or "shocking."

    As far as I know, all attempts at a license have been broad attempts and more or less casual inquiries. I think a well tailored narrow attempt would be worth a try. However, before doing so, any potential licensees should have their ducks in order, to include a draft license agreement for Wotc to consider. Don't walk or call in and say, "How about a license?" or words to that effect. IMO.
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    GVD
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    Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:03 pm  

    Any spect submission consists of a synopsis, sample, and project outline. I just assumed that would be the case. WotC determines whether or not a project is too ambitious (too big). A realistic proposal would have to present Greyhawk as something new. (I can hear the grognards grumbling already.) As you've pointed out, you can't simply walk into WotC and say, "I wanna write some Greyhawk stuff. Gimme a license." You have to say, "I have several ideas that will make Greyhawk a popular campaign setting once again. Here they are." There is a selling point.

    All of us were roped into Greyhawk because it has the right combination of depth, mystery, and accommodation that makes it easy for DMs to make Greyhawk their own. The trick is convincing those FR/Eberron loving Watzis that Greyhawk is still profitable. More importantly, it's going to be difficult to give Greyhawk its identity back when TSR and WotC cannibalized the setting for Forgotten Realms, taking all of the kewl gods, modules, and fluff and pretending like it's Greenwood's brilliant imagination. That's the real challenge.
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:36 am  

    The more I look at this the more I like GVD's list, except the Tsojcanth one bothers me. I know why he picked it, but on principle the unpublished Ivid the Undying deserves the light of day and it covers a ton of ground. Hmm maybe since its unpublished that can be thrown in for free?
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:51 pm  

    I don't see there being a problem in just developing whatever you want for Greyhawk, publishing it online and not charging for it, and let WoTC stew about if they like but there is nothing they can do about it.

    There is no reason for someone to legally purchase Greyhawk from WoTC. All of the good talent working on Greyhawk is already here at Cannonfire and they publish articles about it all the time.

    If all the governments of all the countries of the world cannot stop people on the internet from file-sharing copies of Big Momma's House 2, then WoTC should be hard pressed to stop devoted fans of a product they care nothing about.

    Besides, in this economy a company that produces nothing but least-priority budget items, that keeps hacking up useless reprints of the same books with new rule sets surely cannot stay running forever.

    I know myself and everyone I game with totally skipped 4th ed out of a combination of disinterest and budget problems. 3e still works fine, I tried it out just the other day.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:27 pm  

    Were I to pick 7, they would be:

    1. Living Greyhawk Guide
    2. Marklands
    3. Iuz the Evil
    4. Ivid the Undying
    5. Scarlet Brotherhood
    6. City of Greyhawk
    7. Against the Giants
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:28 pm  

    AtomicPope wrote:
    2) Return to the Keep on the Borderlands - the best intro module ever rewritten.

    This is Greyhawk?
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:19 pm  

    OleOneEye wrote:
    AtomicPope wrote:
    2) Return to the Keep on the Borderlands - the best intro module ever rewritten.

    This is Greyhawk?

    *holding it in my hands right now*

    Yes it is! Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:28 pm  

    AtomicPope wrote:
    Any spect submission consists of a synopsis, sample, and project outline.


    I would go farther, presenting a draft license at the first sitdown. I would avoid too many specifics because untimately, as licensee in this scenario, I would not want to have to say "mother may I" to Wotc once the license was signed. Its not like I would be freelancing for them, rather I would be going into business on my own (using "my" euphimistically and generally in a corporate sense since I will in all likelihood never have the actual opportunity) and, once Wotc agreed to the general going forward principles, I would look to run my business as _MY_ business.

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I don't see there being a problem in just developing whatever you want for Greyhawk, publishing it online and not charging for it . . .

    There is no reason for someone to legally purchase Greyhawk from WoTC. All of the good talent working on Greyhawk is already here at Cannonfire and they publish articles about it all the time.


    I both agree and disagree.

    Absolutely, supporting a site like CF is great. You can do what you want at your own pace. And CF showcases any number of very talented folks. Yet . . .

    To have the right to work with the IP to create "canon" and to bring professional quality publishing to the table and to have the opportunity to see if GH could reach a larger audience if handled well . . . that is where GH's purchase or license gets attractive. Eric Mona, like or dislike the Dungeon Adventure Paths, has demonstrated that there is a market for a Greyhawk influenced product. Wotc would not let Paizo go all the way, however. The enticing thing about the purchase/license "what if" is what if you could go "all in."

    I take your point but, for me, the "what if" scenario has a definite appeal.

    mortellan wrote:
    The more I look at this the more I like GVD's list, except the Tsojcanth one bothers me. I know why he picked it, but on principle the unpublished Ivid the Undying deserves the light of day and it covers a ton of ground. Hmm maybe since its unpublished that can be thrown in for free?


    I struggled with Ivid the Undying when putting together the list. Where I ended up was just where you did - maybe I could get it thrown in gratis. TSR paid for it but it never really earned its money (maybe a little by being excerpted in 3 Dragon articles). If I couldn't get it for free, I would not put it on the list because it is both very area specific at the same time that the area has been somewhat redone in the LGG. But its a close call.
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    Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:57 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    AtomicPope wrote:
    Any spect submission consists of a synopsis, sample, and project outline.


    I would go farther, presenting a draft license at the first sitdown. I would avoid too many specifics because untimately, as licensee in this scenario, I would not want to have to say "mother may I" to Wotc once the license was signed. Its not like I would be freelancing for them, rather I would be going into business on my own (using "my" euphimistically and generally in a corporate sense since I will in all likelihood never have the actual opportunity) and, once Wotc agreed to the general going forward principles, I would look to run my business as _MY_ business.

    I appreciate your verve but it seems like you're putting the cart before the horse. The licensing agreement should be worried about after they've agreed to your project proposal. If they agree to your project proposal it will be easier to illustrate the necessity of your license agreement. If they're not satisfied then then it's time to a sit down and explain how your licensing agreement will allow your project function for both parties. If there are any concerns as to whether or not the license you've proposed will amount to unpaid revenue or unmitigated proliferation of work I'm sure they'll want to change it.

    Presenting the license up front isn't going to change the embarrassing "mother may I situation." That can be resolved prior to "signing on the dotted line." However, I can pretty much guarantee if you walk in with a licensing agreement it won't be well received. It's highly unlikely that you'll meet with any IP lawyers as you pitch your ideas. So who will you discuss your ideas with? Meeting with the creative and editorial staff is much more likely. It's up to the lawyers to make sure that everyone is satisfied with the legal constraints, not WotC's creative staffers.
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