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    Canonfire :: View topic - Legal question about Greyhawk
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Legal question about Greyhawk
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    From: Nyrond

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    Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:57 pm  
    Legal question about Greyhawk

    Hi Folks,

    On my local website, the admins said that they can no longer allow folks to submit fan based fiction regarding the WoG because of intellectual property rights. In short they said WotC was clamping down on folks using their trademarked and copywrited stuff. Any lawyers out there? I thought that somone here might know the truth behind it. I thought it was innacurate b/c well....look at this site :-)

    Cheers,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:18 pm  

    Dwarf from Nyrond! Hail and well met! Happy

    This is the first I've heard of it. Confused I'll have to look into it, but it doesn't surprise me. The truth is I've been waiting for this "shoe to drop" for some time.

    As for this site, aren't some of the participants here associated with WotC? Confused That would, unquestionably, make the difference. Wink

    Stay in touch. Happy
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
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    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

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    Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:01 pm  

    Sometime between when WOTC announced 4th edition and actually came out with it, they also made other announcements such as the upcoming GSL which took far more months to put out then originally claimed. One of these other claims is that they were going to issue a statement or legal notice in regard to fan sites. Little if anything was ever said again, and this was several months ago. It might be possible that something has been put forth (finally) but I doubt it. I think Canonfire and Oerth Journal would have both received such notices if they had. You could try and contact site management and see if they have heard anything.

    I don't know anything about the site you wanted to post your fiction on but it might be possible they are anticipating an aggressive stance from WOTC and decided not to accept any work because of this forthcoming announcement claimed by WOTC.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    From: Renton WA

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    Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:40 pm  

    cracking down on fan sites would certainly be a way to alienate thier customer even more then they already have in the last six or seven months... wouldn't surprise me in the least oif WotC did something like that given thier recent track record.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    From: Ullinois

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    Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:46 pm  

    Talk to Theocrat Issak, if you have GH material you want to put online he would be willing to host it on Greyhawkonline. That's who handles my webcomic.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:11 am  

    DwarffromNyrond: What site is being cracked down on?

    With regards to posting fan-fiction about Greyhawk, it is about as infringing as it is to simply talk about Greyhawk on a forum. The site simply needs to state that the content is unoffical, has nothing to do with WotC, and is not a challenge to WotC's ownership of the IP. That is a no-brainer of course. If you don't do that, you are basically challenging the ownership of the IP so expect to receive some attention from the powers that be.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    From: Nyrond

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:44 am  

    My local website, who seems to be having all manner of tech problems b/c we just moved to a new format, was concerned. The admins didn't want to get shut down or sued b/c WotC attack lawyers smelled copyright infringement. Happy It's a simple home grown site that discusses a lot of stuff. If.....sigh....."ya'll" are interested, here is the site:

    www.knoxgamers.org


    Cheers,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:50 pm  
    WotC vs. Greyhawk Fans

    Hi all -
    I remember TSR. Back in the early days, the internet was AOL (and all those other dial-up companies), and TSR's site was only accessible to AOL users. At the time, there were a couple forums for Greyhawk, and the original GreyTalk (which you can still find a few of those old folders). During this time, TSR/AOL did go after a few fan sites.

    But with today's new fangled G.W. Bush's "Interwebs" (really, Interwebs? what an id10T) once something is online, Google, Yahoo!, Cuil and all the other search engines pretty much gobble everything up.

    The argument that Bit Torrent sites use is that although they are pointing to copyrighted material, they actually don't host anything. The argument that Google uses when they back up copyrighted material, is something along the lines of "it was already out there, and our job as a search engine is to just collect information." Of course with CanonFire!, this is all new information regarding a copyrighted world. The terms Greyhawk, Flanaess and other copyrighted/trade marked terms have been used for many years by fans, and is part of the concept of fair use.
    Stargate is a copyrighted term and the names Col. Jack O'Neill is a trademark name. So when fans create works of fan-fic regarding the Stargate and Col. O'Neill, they are using concepts under fair use. Same with us fans. Because we have been using the "fair use" aspect of writing and talking about Greyhawk for many years now, and with WotC's knowledge , without being contested (how many people have posted to WotC's own forums with WotC's own moderators seeing the information that points back to CanonFire!, GreyhawkOnline, or the Oerth Journal?).
    When WotC used Gleemax, one of the terms of service was something that stated that you could talk about their worlds, but that any information posted on Gleemax forums were actually their property if they wished to utilize it. So the argument that they have been "unaware" of CanonFire, GreyhawkOnline and the Oerth Journal is suspect. Sure, when you've got a company with a bazillion lawyers vs an unemployed marketing / advertising director, they'd win (vs GreyhawkOnline / Oerth Journal). But that doesn't mean that their isn't an argument for the Fair Use aspect.
    But as owner of GreyhawkOnline.com and the Oerth Journal I've never received any message from any official or unofficial source stating that they would be contacting me regarding the use of their names. Crap, I even "owned" my gaming store "Greyhawk Games" and met and handed out my business cards and registration information during two GAMA Trade Shows. And that would be a clear violation in using the term Greyhawk.
    Fan sites have always had a soft spot in copyright and fair use actions. Even with high profile sites like CanonFire!, GreyhawkOnline and the Oerth Journal, WotC would never be able to attack all the sites out there. Like BlogSpot. That's big name joint. I am only aware of a couple "blogs" that utilize Greyhawk names and terms. But if they attempted to go after CF!, GHO and the OJ, they would also be required to go after every site that utilized their copyrighted and trade marked terms. Because of the "Fair Use" and the requirement to protect their intellectual property they must attack every and all known or potentially known sites that utilize their information. The fall out that TSR suffered may not have led to the demise of their gaming life, but it very well couldn't have helped. Because if WotC under the ownership of Hasbro would go after any and all Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, PlaneScape and any other fan related site of any WotC related IP, they would also have to go after any other fan site towards any other Hasbro product. This would include Transformers. Tw2005.com would also be forfeit, as they have copyrighted materials for the movies as well as their toys.
    So in all, sure they'd win against us because we're small and unemployed. But because we're small and unemployed they'd also most likely not come after us because in doing so they lose fan and community support which is what they need. But also because we're small and unemployed, we'll be able to move our sites and information to other locations if needed. How easy would it be for Mort to move his W.o.G comic over to blog spot, hiding it much easier from a big corporation, but keeping the fans in the know, and keeping WotC/Hasbro from coming after him because they'd have to go after Blog Spot.
    So in the end, if I ever get any sort of notice (and I get ICAAN notices all the time, so it's not like you can't get hold of me) that informs me that WotC/Hasbro has decided to take a look at GreyhawkOnline.com or OerthJournal.com, ThePale.org, SyberWerks.net or one of the other sites, I'd be contacting Gary Holian and others with whom we all work with to keep the sites current.
    And to clarify, Gary Holian owns CanonFire.com and he and Erik Mona wrote the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, but with the way WotC is, I don't know if he has too many contacts with WotC any more. I'm sure that with his connection and friendship with EM, he might be able to get a pre-warning, but I'm as certain that nothing will happen as I am that Pholtus is the One True Path to Glory and Righteousness.
    Be Well.
    In His Path and Glory We Follow,
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:30 pm  

    So po-dunk, hillbilly knoxgamers is pretty much safe for having hillbilly Roy post some writ'en he got learned in school and used it on that new in-ter-nit. Sa-weet! Everything is unofficial. It is fan-based. It has nothing to do with WotC in an official capacity and no one making a challenge to their IP rights. Got'cha. Thanks!!!! Laughing Cool
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 07, 2007
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    From: The Kingdom of Nyrond (LA County, CA)

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:53 pm  
    Re: WotC vs. Greyhawk Fans

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    The terms Greyhawk, Flanaess and other copyrighted/trade marked terms have been used for many years by fans, and is part of the concept of fair use.
    Stargate is a copyrighted term and the names Col. Jack O'Neill is a trademark name. So when fans create works of fan-fic regarding the Stargate and Col. O'Neill, they are using concepts under fair use.


    I'm sorry. They're not. In many cases, particularly with Star Trek and Star Wars, the fanfic creators are basically benefitting from the IP holders knowingly turning a blind eye to (or in the case of Star Trek, sometimes even implicitly endorsing) the fanfics -- after all, a well-written fic can be good publicity for the original source material -- but it has nothing to do with fair use, which is a completely different kind of protection.

    Fair use was set up as a legal theory expressly to allow researchers, reviewers, journalists and others engaged in critical commentary and analysis to use small portions of a copyrighted work in such critical commentary or educational materials and yet be shielded from lawsuits from IP holders (in some cases for what would have ammounted to nuisance or SLAPP suits if the critical analysis tended to be unfavorable to the IP holder or the work). It alows small quotes to be used, for instance:

    "However, Doctor John Smith in his seminal work, 'Time And Relative Dimensions In Space' skewers Professor D. Avros' theories on electrical charge: 'The idea of disassociating the electrical charges inside atoms, thereby destroying matter itself is utter twaddle. It would take the combined power of 27 planets...' "

    It also allows rival networks to use each others' clips for news purposes (oftentimes with a small tag saying "Courtesy XYZ networks").

    But nowhere does it confer the right to make fanfics or fansites (indeed, 20th Century Fox a few years back went on a highly-publicized rampage against Simpsons fansites). As I'd mentioned before, those are covered under the forbearance of the IP holder, who can, if desired, crack down.

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Same with us fans. Because we have been using the "fair use" aspect of writing and talking about Greyhawk for many years now, and with WotC's knowledge , without being contested


    Again, that's just because it's simply been in WotC's best interest not to drop the hammer. I hope they don't, but they do reserve that right if they so choose -- again, we here have no fair use protection in any real sense, at least none that would seriously pass the scrutiny of a court.

    The closest any of Canonfire actually comes to fair use is Mortellan's WoG webcomic, which could be held as a parody or satire on Greyhawk. Thanks to Mad Magazine and (oddly enough) 2 Live Crew, parody is a protected critical commentary and fair use.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:52 pm  

    Pat Payne is right. WoTC does not have to defend its copyrights (ie Greyhawk). It might have a certain obligation to defend its trademarks, but I don't think Greyhawk is a trademark, and even if it is, it does not void copyright. Nothing voids copyright except death+75 years. Fan use is not fair use. Canonfire! was an explicity permitted Greyhawk fan site; it continued under WotC's lenient fan site policy (don't screw us and we won't screw you). Canonfire never adopted the OGL because that would take it out of "fan" status and into legal status, which it could not sustain. Whether or not Canonfire continues to exist under the new WotC policy is entirely up to WotC. Ditto any other fansite.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:14 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    Pat Payne is right. WoTC does not have to defend its copyrights (ie Greyhawk). It might have a certain obligation to defend its trademarks, but I don't think Greyhawk is a trademark,


    Actually, it is as well.

    USPTO Listing wrote:
    Typed Drawing


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Word Mark GREYHAWK
    Goods and Services IC 028. US 022 038. G & S: EQUIPMENT SOLD AS A UNIT AND INCLUDING A RULE BOOK AND PRINTED PLAYING AIDS, FOR PLAYING A PARLOR TYPE GAME. FIRST USE: 19880810. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19880810
    Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
    Serial Number 74006681
    Filing Date December 1, 1989
    Current Filing Basis 1A
    Original Filing Basis 1A
    Published for Opposition May 15, 1990
    Registration Number 1609213
    Registration Date August 7, 1990
    Owner (REGISTRANT) TSR, INC. CORPORATION WISCONSIN C/O WIZARDS OF THE COAST, INC. 1801 LIND AVE. SW RENTON WASHINGTON 98055
    Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
    Prior Registrations 1465456;1465457
    Type of Mark TRADEMARK
    Register PRINCIPAL
    Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010216.
    Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20010216
    Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


    Nellsir wrote:
    Nothing voids copyright except death+75 years.


    I'm coming to the cynical view that copyright is pretty much perpetual for all works produced after "Steamboat Willie." 'cos every few years the entertainment industry gets its pet Congressmen out to pass yet another copyright extension, keeping very profitable works out of the public domain.

    Nellsir wrote:
    Canonfire! was an explicity permitted Greyhawk fan site; it continued under WotC's lenient fan site policy (don't screw us and we won't screw you).


    Exactly. It's exactly why there is a full-on fan Star Trek series that even has had some of the original actors appear running regularly on the web without Paramount dropping a mountain on it :). If WotC did not want CF! or OJ out there, they would not have to be shy about going about shutting them down. Blessedly (one of the few remaining praiseworthy things about WotC these days), they don't see a need or desire in doing so.

    [quote="Nellsir"Whether or not Canonfire continues to exist under the new WotC policy is entirely up to WotC. Ditto any other fansite.[/quote]

    And that depends on whether they keep the current crop of people at WotC who, even if they burned a whole lot of fan good will with 4E at least are still well-meaning, or they cast an Animate Dead spell on Lorraine Williams' career.. Confused


    Last edited by Pat_Payne on Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:16 pm  

    Chances are WotC will not "crack down" on fansites such as Canonfire. Since nobody is profiting from the work posted here, WotC would not be likley to be able to successfuly sue for damages, the best they could do is try for cease and desist orders, which would cost them more money in legal fees then it would be worth to shut down the fansites (especialy if they wanted to go after all of them).

    Woe be to anybody trying to profit from WotC IP with out thier express consent though, they can (and should be) sued by WotC to the full extent of the law.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:04 pm  

    So the question remains. If I write fan fiction, to support my own 3.x campaign, based off of WotC Greyhawk material and post it on the website, they can ask me to stop and by law the admins have to remove it.

    To make this even more clear. I post alternate versions of the WoG; the pc's travel to locales such as "Furyondy," "Radigast City," fight a member of the "Boneheart" and try to restore the "Shield Lands" and return "Thrommel" with the help of "Otiluke" and "Bigby," and tool around in the "Sea of Dust" with "Suel" liches and meet "Graz'zt" and "Iuz" which all takes place during our game sessions. Even though we played it, the events turned out this way and it has *ZERO* effect on official WotC WoG setting material, I recieve *ZERO* financial gain and publicly state that it is unofficial and no one is challenging WotC IP ownership, I can't post it? Come on, really? Shocked Cool
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:53 pm  

    Yes, you can post it. What you can't do is deny that the trademarks are WotC's rather than yours and you can't make money off of it. The only way a fansite like this is going to get in trouble is if it starts a subscription for membership or otherwise starts charging for content, given that said content is WotC trademark derived.

    They /can/ send a cease and desist order if you post stuff on a website. They won't. Its not in their interest to do so. Fansites are encouraged, generally, because they are free advertising. The sole reason for WotC to shut down a site is if it is attempting to make money off of their work. That's it.
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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    From: WoG 2.0

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    Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:23 pm  

    Hi all -
    Good thing there are other people that have different books than I do. But then it's been a little bit of time since I read up on my copyright (since I'm not currently using it like I was several months ago).
    If you own the domain knoxgamers.org and it's not a big site that doesn't get a lot of traffic WotC isn't going to come after you. I say this because I'm almost certain that the traffic volume on CF!, the names GreyhawkOnline.com and OerthJournal.com would register a lot higher on their radar than one that doesn't even have WotC IP in the .com name.

    Recently, there was a site that was bought by parents for their son to have the name of the world that is for CS Lewis's Lion, Witch & Wardrobe (I don't remember the name of the world). The site was ZYX.mobi, and they said that they'd only bought it for their kid to have a cool e-mail address. It was OK'd by two sets of courts (or was it just one?), because the parents said it was just for their kid. But it was overturned because there were ad's on the site. Thus the family was making money on the IP of the CS Lewis family.

    Although this took place in the UK I'm sure that it has a similar precedent in the USA. None of my sites have any advertising, so we stay under the radar a bit, but I'm sure that if and when WotC/Hasbro decides that it's no longer in their best interest to allow me to keep the domain name GreyhawkOnline.com (because they decide that they want to make an online game based upon the Greyhawk IP, like they did with dndonline.com) I'll hear about it long before even CanonFire! gets a complaint about fan's writing fan-fic for the IP. So once again, if your site is just knoxgamers.org, you would have to be wholesale posting .pdf's of their files for each and everybody to take. But then again, you'd have to be doing so and making some sort of profit without their permission (since that's what Paizo and DriveThru/RPGNow and others do).

    So again, although I'm no lawyer and only utilize fair use, copyright and trademark aspects as a marketing/advertising director (or did before the economy began to tank) I'm certain that I'll hear about any objections from WotC before anybody but maybe Gary Holian. And I'd still likely even find out before him, because CanonFire! may utilize WotC IP, but my site's are WotC IP in name and utilization. And if I do ever hear about it, I will certainly be privately informing Gary first and foremost (and likely vice-versa if he ever hears of something) long before any other poster here would ever know. Of course, if a poster here is a lawyer specifically for WotC or Hasbro and knows something (because just being a lawyer doesn't mean that they specialize in copyright law) and is just judging interest and potential outcry, then by all means, that is news worthy. Or on the other side of that, if you are a lawyer for copyright and are willing to potentially defend either myself, Gary or any other person with WotC IP, then by all means that is most welcome news.

    But since KnoxGamers.org isn't WotC IP in name, even if in utilization then I'm sure you're most fine. Of course, if you are concered about it, I'm more than happy to host your site on my own servers (I pay an outside host to host my 10-ish domain names) or as a sub-domain of GreyhawkOnline.com if you'd like. In doing so, I would still be the one that would be contacted and in most trouble if WotC decided legal action. And since I'm already open to any sort of action I figure if they want to make me give up the domains or whatever I'm already in a world of potential hurt.
    And although Pat_Payne lists some very compelling information and Nellsir has been around for a very-long time (dating back to those TSR anti-Fan days), once again, I'm certain that I will hear something regarding the issue long before either of them, and if you indeed do decide to post information on your own site let me know your e-mail and I'll be certain to add you to the list right behind Gary if I'm ever contacted by a lawyer to quit posting WotC IP Fan Fic.

    I do get pissy about this at times because we do go through this a couple times a year with someone asking how it is that we (all fan sites) get away with it. I'm not saying that it isn't OK to ask, as Dwarf From Nyrond does, nor am I saying that any posts that are here regarding this issue aren't smart and an attempt to pass along some advice. But all I can say is that unless they are specifically copyright lawyers I'd take any advise from any of us as just one grain of salt on the ocean floor. I'm not saying that my advise is better or worse than theirs. All I'm saying is that as a non-copyright lawyer but person that owns sites similar to what you are asking about, I feel certain that I'm qualified to say that you're OK. Of course, others may also own sites that utilize WotC IP on their own sites, and they may also own sites with WotC IP as part of the domain name, and if so, they are taking the same risks and rewards that I am (unless they sell advertising or make other profit from the matter).

    But in the end, you too must decide what to do. Just contacting a copyright lawyer wont be enough, because as always there are two sides of the law, and each side gets the option to argue their point. But if you want to be 100% certain, you would have to contact WotC / Hasbro's lawyers, and receive written permission. I'm not sure the number of people that have ever contacted them, nor am I sure of the number of people that have received written permission (except of course companies such as Kenzer and Paizo), but if you ever do, I think it would be interesting to know.
    Good luck and I hope you do decide to post your works on you own Web site. But if you or your hosting company doesn't want to take the chance, my offer stands.

    Be Well.
    Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:54 pm  
    Re: WotC vs. Greyhawk Fans

    Pat_Payne wrote:


    Thanks to Mad Magazine and (oddly enough) 2 Live Crew, parody is a protected critical commentary and fair use.


    Wait.. What?

    Why does 2LC get credit here? Are you referring to the Jack Thompson crap from the 80's?
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    Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:43 am  
    Re: WotC vs. Greyhawk Fans

    manus-nigrum wrote:
    Pat_Payne wrote:

    Thanks to Mad Magazine and (oddly enough) 2 Live Crew, parody is a protected critical commentary and fair use.


    Wait.. What?

    Why does 2LC get credit here? Are you referring to the Jack Thompson crap from the 80's?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_v._Acuff-Rose_Music,_Inc.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:58 pm  

    TheocratIssak wrote:

    And although Pat_Payne lists some very compelling information and Nellsir has been around for a very-long time (dating back to those TSR anti-Fan days), once again, I'm certain that I will hear something regarding the issue long before either of them,


    I'm absolutely sure you will. I barely know anything (Greyhawkian) these days. ;)

    And to try and answer DwarffromNyrond's question: yes, if you post GH fan-fic on your site, WotC could send you a very legal letter asking you take the fan-fic down. Profit, amateur/professional status, and intent are immaterial. You could also be struck by lightning and win the lottery. I'd go ahead and put your stuff up, and if WotC ever cracks down on their intellectual property, just take it down.
    Novice

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    Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:27 pm  

    Hello everybody, I'm the Moderator from Knoxgamers.org who wrote the IP Advisement for that site.

    What we are concerned about is the possible negative legal ramifications of posting fanfiction set in sombody else's intellectual property on our website. We don't want to hinder people from writing fanfic, but we also simply don't have the legal or monetary resources to fight a battle over it should one occur. Since we'd rather not have anything like this interrupt service to our posters, we decided to play it safe and simply not allow fanfic to be posted that is set in somebody else's intellectual property unless we had verifiable consent to do so.

    It's not a matter of Knoxgamers.org being oppressors, its a matter of covering our own **** in case something legal happens.

    Different sites will have have different approaches to this intellectual property issue and this is ours.
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