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Adept Greytalker
Joined: Mar 13, 2008
Posts: 563
From: brazil
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Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:20 pm
why dont we have celtic gods in GH?
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i mean...we dont, right?
so, how come theres stories about robilar and odin?
wasnt greyhawk gods set yet?
can gods from "other worlds" (like FR ou DL) show up , or they are "traped" in their own worlds?
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Aug 17, 2004
Posts: 924
From: Computer Desk
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Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:16 pm
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Several of the flan and druidic philosophy are obviously celtic inspired.
As for the early days of GH; no definite unique divine patheon. Gary and friends felt players would be more interested in the next room of the dungeon then cosmic goverance.
Basic D&D simply had "evil cleric" - As GH grew in popularity and the customers clamored for more information - A Pantheon was developed rather piecemeal. A common occurrence within Greyhawk.
Originally a Deities & Demi-Gods Books with stats on various real world pantheons and an encouragement to use whatever you want.
Of course tidbits leaked out about the early games; northern - Norse Pantheon was used and Greek Patheon was experimented upon. Players wanted something uniquely GH and the publisher wanted to sell books. Various writers pulled together material from all over and the GH Pantheon took shape.
The reason the GH cosmic neighbourhood is such a hodgepodge is this organic progression. I have an idea? - sounds interesting; go with it. Rather then worked out this supplement; here is the list.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Posts: 2788
From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:56 pm
Re: why dont we have celtic gods in GH?
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rossik wrote: |
i mean...we dont, right?
so, how come theres stories about robilar and odin? |
Odin is actually of the Norse Pantheon. I don't use Celtic Gods much simply because I can't pronounce their names. Although they use the English alphabet to spell them, they are not spelled phonetically:
'Aine - Goddess of Love
Camulos - British Celtic war god.
Cliodhna - Goddess of Beauty
Ialonus - God of cultivated fields.
Ogmios - Lead the dead to the Underworld.
Sequena - a river goddess.
Tlachtga - a goddess associated with hills
None of them are pronounced the way you would think that they should be, based upon the English spelling.
Ogma is the Celtic God of Eloquence and Literature. You might recognize the name from Faerun, though the spelling is different.
Just my thoughts. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 594
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Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:17 pm
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You can pretty much take any given polytheistic pantheon and swap around their names; they all have the same jobs.
All mythologies have the same deities, they just call them other things.
Except for Christianity, where all the gods are the same bloke with all the powers of the rainbow plus seven.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:37 am
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model uk3 beyond the crystal cave set in the isles of the sea princes features the demigod The Green Man. He is in various forms pan-european, but represented by the celts at least in the form of Cernunos sp? And likely innumerable local variants. As presented in the module he is late british- including the alternate name of John Barleycorn. _________________ Plar of Poofy Pants
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: May 14, 2002
Posts: 429
From: Renton WA
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Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:58 am
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fragarach, prince thrommel's sword in TOEE originally belonged to Lugh of the Longhand, a celtic deity.
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: May 14, 2002
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From: Renton WA
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Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:01 am
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All mythologies have the same deities, they just call them other things. |
that is a gross generalization and not true, even then.
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: May 14, 2003
Posts: 349
From: the Free City of Dyvers (Kansas City, MO)
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Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:47 am
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One could also argue that there are no Celtic gods on Greyhawk, because there are no Celts on Oerth... _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:04 pm
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"Dictionary of Celtic Mythology" by Peter Berresford Ellis, 1992
Cernunnos - "The Horned One," found in Gaul and Britian. He is sometimes equated with the Dis Pater and therefore the Dagda in Irish myth. Representations of him show a characteristic Buddha posture, although he is also shown with a club. He is also represented as "lord of animals," especially of the bull and stag.
Lugh - One of the most important of the Irish gods. The son of Cian and Ethlinn, daughter of Balor of the Evil Eye. Renowned for the splendour of his countenance, he is clearly a solar deity and cognate with Lugus in Gaul and Lleu in Wales. He is a god of all arts and crafts. . . . He fulfills the prophecy of killing Balor and becomes ruler of the gods when Nuada is killed. . . . However, when the old gods were driven underground, Lugh diminished in people's minds, becoming a fairy craftsman name Lugh-chromain, "little stooping Lugh." Now all that is left of the potent patron of arts and crafts is the Anglicised version of Lugh-chromain - Leprechaun.
In case you wanted to know. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Dec 07, 2003
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Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:34 am
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Check out Living Greyhawk Geoff. Their version is heavily Celt inspired, including a major role of the aforementioned Green Man and the Old Faith.
In fact Beory is a celtic-style goddess and one could argue that the Flan aspects of the GH gods should be given a Celtic flavour. Check out the Yahoo group for a decent examination of the gods and their place in the Old Faith (Ehlonna = Spring, Pelor = Summer, Obad-hai = Autum/Fall, Nerull = Winter etc).
In 4e I suppose you could do primal characters with a multiclass in cleric for a sort of added celtic feel.
I get frustrated when the Flan Gods are portrayed as white European (notably Pelor) instead of celtic-affro-carribean. Sure the Gods can appear how they like but if they started out as Flan gods, their default portrayal should be Flan in my opinion.
BTW - the Morrigan was always one of the favourites after reading the Wierdstone of Brisingamon.
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GreySage
Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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From: Michigan
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Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:12 am
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There's an apocryphal reference to the Wild Hunt in Sterich (as a local Flan god/spirit). I've also seen a reference to the Master of the Wild Hunt as an aspect of Obad-hai here.
I think there's a lot of truth to the statement "There are no Celtic gods in Greyhawk (except for the Green Man) because Greyhawk has no Celts." It has Flan, Oeridians, and so on instead, and they have their own pantheons. It's easy to make comparisons, though: Obad-hai as Cernunnos, for example, is a pretty good one.
As far as Pelor goes, he's golden because the sun is golden. I wouldn't take that to mean he looks in any way European. He's a Flannae man with golden skin and hair, though other racial groups doubtless portray him differently.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:06 pm
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rasgon wrote: |
As far as Pelor goes, he's golden because the sun is golden. I wouldn't take that to mean he looks in any way European. He's a Flannae man with golden skin and hair, though other racial groups doubtless portray him differently. |
I concur. I think the same would be true of all Solar Deities, such as the Celtic Lugh (see discription above), the Greek Hyperion and so forth.
Golden skin, or hair, would signify his/her relationship to the Sun, not to an ethnicity.
Just my thoughts. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:49 am
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cwslyclgh wrote: |
Quote: |
All mythologies have the same deities, they just call them other things. |
that is a gross generalization and not true, even then. |
Most mythological pantheons have strongly similar principle deities that perform similar functions. The Celtic pantheon is not so similar in design as many of the others (Greek to Norse) but that is attributed to the fact that much of what is known of the Celtic pantheon was transcribed from word of mouth to paper by Christian scholars, who at no point considered it anything more than just mythology.
The principle concepts of the earth, the sea, the sky, war, marriage, life, the hunt, the sun, the moon are all generally represented in primitive religions. There are discrepancies, but they all essentially represent the same 'deified concept.'
Most of the gods from Greyhawk can be traced back to some god from some Pantheon. Like Ogma from Welsh mythology to Rao. I don't think at any point it should ever have been assumed otherwise.
Dungeons and Dragons as a whole is basically a compilation of known fantasy works such as those of Robert E. Howard and Richard Wagner coupled with mythology from various areas around the world.
In an essence, the Celtic gods are within Greyhawk. Though the same deities are used multiple times through different parts of Europe, they essentially have the same ideals behind them, ideals which are represented within many of the deities of Greyhawk.
The Great Migration, and the influx of varied cultures, is also similar to what happened to primitive religion during the rise of the Roman Empire. When a polytheistic belief system clashes with another similar belief system, they often merge, such as exampled with Shintoism and Buddhism merging in Japan to form Zen Buddhism.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:44 pm
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chaoticprime wrote: |
Most mythological pantheons have strongly similar principle deities that perform similar functions.
The principle concepts of the earth, the sea, the sky, war, marriage, life, the hunt, the sun, the moon are all generally represented in primitive religions. There are discrepancies, but they all essentially represent the same 'deified concept.'
Though the same deities are used multiple times through different parts of Europe, they essentially have the same ideals behind them, ideals which are represented within many of the deities of Greyhawk. |
Case in point: Were I to give you the "Portfolio" of a certain God -- of our own mythologies -- you might give me a certain name. But, you should know that, the Gods below, are exactly the same, IF you compare their "Portfolios."
Thor -- Norse
Zeus -- Greek
Jupiter -- Roman
Perunu -- Slavic
Indra -- Hindu
Enlil -- Sumeria
Teshub -- Hittite. And there are others . . .
Any reference work I've ever read will tell you that they are the same God; controller of storms, thunder and lightning bolts are their weapons, etc. Only the names are changed.
Just saying . . . _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Grandmaster Greytalker
Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:44 am
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There was an issue of Dragon magazine from way back (pre-100), that covered the Tuatha De Dannan (Irish) deities, and fixed the butcher job the 1e "Deities & Demi-Gods" did on them.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:14 am
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Regrettably, I haven't given the proper amount of attention to all of the peoples of the Flanaess; attention they deserve.
PaulN6 wrote: |
Check out Living Greyhawk Geoff. Their version is heavily Celt inspired, . . . Green Man and the Old Faith . . . Beory is a celtic-style goddess and one could argue that the Flan aspects of the GH gods should be given a Celtic flavour. |
The very name -- Geoff -- has a certain Celtic quality about it. The ancient Greeks spoke of raids and such by the Keltoi. They inhabited most of Europe, before the German tribes arrived.
With pressure from both the Romans and German tribes they were continually driven westward, until their descendants inhabited only Ireland, Wales, Scotland and the Basque country of Spain.
Their influence pervaded the other cultures of Europe. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
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From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:44 pm
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Why don't we have Celtic gods in Greyhawk? 'Cuz they're icky. And they smell funny.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:09 pm
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Hey! I'll have you know that the Dagda bathes every second Saturday of the month! _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
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From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc
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Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:23 pm
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Bathing in the blood of one's enemies is hardly considered good hygiene!
(Though I admit I do that myself from time to time.)
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