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    Canonfire :: View topic - half orcs and society
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    half orcs and society
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
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    From: brazil

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    Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:14 pm  
    half orcs and society

    my friend just asked me about how half orcs are accepted in GH.
    (im playing 2ed, if that helps). any info and tips to handle half orc (possible barbarian..sigh) characters are wealcome too! :D
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2005
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    Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:19 pm  

    It depends heavily on what sort of half-orc your friend wants to play. One of the best half-orc barbarians I have ever seen was a farm boy who's mother had been raped by maurauding orcs, and who had been raised by his grandfather. The farm boy with a temper angle. My wife is using that angle currently in our game set near the pomarj. (I'm playing a devout self trained monk/cleric who is her twin). If he wants to play the brutish thug who wields his manners like a great axe, then he'll reap what he sows. If he plays against type, but retains a bit of the anger issues, then he should be rewarded by folk who try their best to treat him decent. They may not always succeed, and there are always idiots who will screw it up, but still, it depends largely on how he acts. It depends on the area as to how they are going to be treated too. North or west of the pomarj where rapes are common enough that most folk know a friend of a friend who knows of a half orc, they'd be seen with pity and some loathing, but only the most intolerant folk would actually make a big deal out of, at least no more than they would a human outsider. In an area where orcs are largely unknown, they'd be treated the same as any other weird outsider.

    I didn't realize there were stats for half-orcs in 2E.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
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    From: brazil

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    Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:44 pm  

    i dont know yet what kind of half orc he is going to do. if helps, we play in the "center area" (at least in my map, ehhee) -greyhawk, verbobonc, celene and so.

    half orcs have in the humanoids book (the brown book series), if im not wrong.

    i always asked to me, with no good enough answer :" what if a 1/2orc is walking the streets of a small/big city/village?
    what would be the reaction of the citizen?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    From: Computer Desk

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    Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:50 pm  

    Half-Orcs aren't treated well Sad

    Treated as the half-breeds natives were in the old western movies or mixed race in the old south. Half-breeds are treated with contempt and fear.

    Both species of the parentage rejects the half-orc. Humans usually see the orc as an untrustworthy cruel savage, more akin to a dangerous animal. The orcs view half-orcs as soft and weak that must constantly prove their orcish heritage. Both parent cultures ascribe to the half-orc the worst attributes of the other culture.

    This is the reason most half-orcs become bitter toward both cultures and seek to leave behind the community that has made them an outcast in all but name. Most half-orcs seek to use their aggression to demand respect and acquire riches. Few half-orcs remember their childhoods fondly.

    Often the vengeful orcish raiders or bandit scum did not simply chose to prey upon the local villages by accident; if a half-orc leads them.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:54 pm  

    Except that is a bit worse than that as orcs are known to not too infrequently snack on humans. Orcs are really seen as monsters in most places, so a half-orc is really a half monster to them. So, imagine having to take that into account too. Shocked

    Grob the Fighter: "Have you met the new guy in the party? He seems Ok to me."

    Furd the Cleric: "But he's a half-orc! He's half monster!"

    Grob the Fighter: "Isn't that kinda like being half dead?"

    Furd the Cleric: "EXACTLY!"

    Grob the Fighter: "Well then, being dead doesn't sound half bad then!"

    Happy
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
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    Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:48 am  

    Ultimately, you have to decide what's best for your campaign. Half orcs are clearly intended to be a playable race, so setting them to be "kill on sight" is not good for that. On the other hand, most folks who chose to play a half orc are expecting to be persecuted....within limits, that's part of the fun.

    Fantasy worlds (and Greyhawk is no exception) are generally inclined to be more tolerant and less racist than the real world. If you want a more "real world feel", half orcs would generally be feared, despised, and often hated. They would certainly be considered social inferiors and subject to a lot of harassment... ranging from refusal of service to police beating them up for the heck of it to lynch mobs and scapegoating.

    But that rarely makes for a good game, so if you are going to allow a half orc PC, either ameloriate that somehow or be very sure the player knows what they are in for.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:26 pm  

    It goes without saying - you control your game.

    Granted predjuice isn't fun but if the PC goes in with his eyes open. It can be a gold mine for roleplayers. If the PC wants a reason to behave with a "chip on his shoulder" problem solved.

    As a DM use it as an adventure device; daily mobs and social slights aren't fun but the occassional bar fight or drunken lynch mob can be. Use it as a plausible reason to steer the party to certain adventure locales.

    It has some benefits for the party; not welcome in the upper class areas but a rough border town tavern. These types would rather talk to a half-orc then a cultured paladin.

    Boils down to POV Wink


    Last edited by Crag on Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:22 pm  

    FWIW, orcs cross-breed with almost anything and only 10% of these pairings can pass as the non-orcish parent; the rest are statistically orcs. Half-orcs are specifically those human/orc hybrids who can pass as humans. Brutish, Neaderthal, unfrozen caveman lawyer looking humans, but human. That's AD&D's take, anyway.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
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    From: brazil

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:04 am  

    on a polemic subject: orcs are always sons of rape?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:21 am  

    One could assume. From the AD&D description, I kind of infer that female orcs are basically beat into submission and incapable of consenting to anything. Maybe a human has a pig fetish or something, but I would almost say any orc coupling is rape. (I am speaking specifically of the 10% that make up AD&D PCs, BTW.)
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:37 am  

    rossik wrote:
    on a polemic subject: orcs are always sons of rape?


    I would never say always about anything. If someone has an idea for a half-orc character who's the child of a happily married orc and human couple, I'd encourage it wholeheartedly. Maybe the orc was raised by humans (or dwarves, or half-orcs, or whatever). Maybe the human was raised by orcs.

    Not to mention a half-orc who's the offspring of two half-orcs. There's no reason half-orcs have to rape one another.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:16 am  

    rossik wrote:
    on a polemic subject: orcs are always sons of rape?


    Historically speaking the attitude of males (and probably females) seems to be "any port in a storm," so I would assume that any frontier area where there is a shortage of female humans you might find human males seeking the "comfort" of female orcs. This matter gets further complicated in my campaign by the inclusion of the enslavement of humanoids. This is usually the result of intertribal warfare, especially in places like the Pomarj. One orc tribe defeats another tribe of orcs, hobgoblins, etc... and sells the captives to human slave traders who, though their nation may have qualms about the enslavement of humans and demi-humans, certainly has no problem with making slaves of savages like orcs and goblinoids. Orc tribes also are often eager to unload "weakling" half-orcs on slave traders. IMC the Scarlet Brotherhood is a big player in this trade as a means of gaining wealth and as a cover for their spying and espionage. Now of course they're getting involved in dealing in human slaves in places such as the Sea Princes and Great Kingdom through contacts with the Slave Lords of the Pomarj (My campaign is set in 576).
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
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    From: brazil

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:08 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    rossik wrote:
    on a polemic subject: orcs are always sons of rape?


    I would never say always about anything. If someone has an idea for a half-orc character who's the child of a happily married orc and human couple, I'd encourage it wholeheartedly. Maybe the orc was raised by humans (or dwarves, or half-orcs, or whatever). Maybe the human was raised by orcs.

    Not to mention a half-orc who's the offspring of two half-orcs. There's no reason half-orcs have to rape one another.


    god, dont know why, i always thoght that they couldn't have children...
    maybe thats Darksun stuff (the half dwarven people :P)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:28 pm  

    Actually some of the third edition fluff for Orcs has their women as near equals, keeping in mind equal is a very broad term. Specifically, if the female is strong enough to assert her will, then she has power. And while orcs are known for their love of the three "F"s (Food, Fighting, and Fornication), the simple fact is orc women make stronger children to lead the next generation than anyone else. Half humans have a devious streak to them that can be a burden or a blessing, depending, but the rest are just weaker orcs. Good for runts and fodder, but not good strong fighters who can actually accomplish anything. So Orc females would have that as their place of honor. They aren't particularly of the mate for life variety, so I would surmise that a leader would want a strong orc woman at his side, even if it means taking her from the former leader. And given their strength, there is every indication that orc women are the only ones who can "really" take everything a strong orc male has to offer sexually (which is a very disturbing image).

    And as for the nature of human fathers, males aren't the only ones with a hefty need for the three "F"s. Its perfectly possible to rape a male prisoner. Of course after he was done being raped, he would then make a good meal or sacrifice, which is just efficiency.

    So to more succinctly answer the question, no not all orcs are the product of rape, but that's only because Orc women only half mean it when they say stop (unless they are sticking a knife in your gut, in which case she means it - just sayin!). Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:49 pm  

    The simplest answer is most half-orcs are concieved through force within border areas or within societies that have mixed humanoid populations.

    Some nations actually encouage humanoid cross-breeding and male orcs seem to have few inhibitions; Iuz encouges the conception of losels (orc/baboon cross). Granted their can be loving half-orc families but these should be exceeding rare.

    Predjuice obviously would be more severe within societies that have suffered orcish raids and especially within the border areas. Within the more protected interior half-orcs may be more of an object of curiousity rather then scorn as the people are eager to see the monster they have only heard stories.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:52 pm  

    (just notice that i wrote "orc" instead of "half orc", but all the arguments are being very helpfull!)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:17 pm  

    Okay, yeah, most (95% or better?) half-orcs are the results of rape and or forced mating (which could be construed as a type of rape). Two half-orcs could fall in love and create yet another half-orc (I've never seen anything that suggest they won't breed true - in fact its stated as such in 3rd - or at least in Ebberon). I don't see an orc and a human finding love, but then again, this is fantasy. As long as its rare, so be it.

    Also, for orc raised half-orcs, they don't see it as rape (despite the fact that it is), as almost all orcish customs on sex involve conquest and savagery. so they concept that their mother (or father) was raped would be foreign, or at least inconsequential. "So what my mother was raped, she was a slave, of course she was raped. Its the orc way!"
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