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    Canonfire :: View topic - Ethnicity in the Flanaess
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Ethnicity in the Flanaess
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 23, 2003
    Posts: 7


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    Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:24 am  
    Ethnicity in the Flanaess

    What human ethnic groups (as opposed to races - e.g. Flan, Oeridian, et al.) are currently extant in the Flanaess?

    For example, we can reasonably assume that nation-states such as Keoland and Furyondy would feature the Keoish and Furyondians, respectively, as their dominant ethnic groups. What other groups could be assumed to exist?

    Thanks for any and all responses!

    Lord Hobie
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:59 am  

    I'm sure language has a lot to do with ethnicity. Rural speakers of Velondi would have a distinct subculture in Furyondy and Veluna, for example, much like the Nyrondese-speaking underclass in Nyrond. There might also be a distinction between Keoish-speaking provinces and more Aerdi-influenced regions where Common was prevalent.

    Keoland might still have enclaves of Flan-looking descendants of the Yaheetes who were stirred to rebellion by the Hand and Eye of Vecna long ago, distinct from the mainstream Keoish culture. Any place where people are still recognizably Flan in a mostly Suel-Oerid region would likely be a subculture, often identified by the name of the old Flan tribe or kingdom that was extant in the area before the Migrations. Another example might be the Harashim descended from the old Kingdom of Ahlissa, or the Lathu described on the Living Greyhawk Almor page.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:57 pm  

    Much of it is homebrew but Rob Vest's house-rules section on his website has his list of languages, which is fertile ground for pulling out various ethnic groups in the Flanaess. http://homepages.ius.edu/rvest/Greyhawk/GHLanguages.html. Plus it's just plain good stuff. Smile
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:06 am  

    IMO ethnicity would be a much more common dividing line in 590s CY Flaness than race. Real world equvalents are a good comparative example, and here I note Samwise in his introduction to the Grand Shelomar Timeline

    Quote:
    Looking at it after, I can see that the Great Council of Niole Dra and the founding of Keoland happened right around the time William the Conquerer was making himself King of England.



    William the conquerer?!?!?! The one who spoke french, before the advent of Middle English? My point is simple: Though the bulk of "Canon," talks about the races of the Flaness, in my mind, these distinctions are much less important than ethnicity or nationality at this point. In modern times it is almost a revivalist notion to talk about "Celtic," culture. Scottish, Welsh or Irish is a much more viable line of discussion.

    This is particularly true when the age of the great nations of the Flaness are examined. Keoland is approximately 1,000 years old. The Great Kingdom was founded nearly 800 years ago. Even the satilite nations in the Sheldomar are more than 600 years old.

    For old racial lines to be the dominant societal division seems unrealistic. Though there are always those to venerate their past (Americans wearing kilts, African Americans in tranditional dress, etc.) it is along national or ethnic lines that most identification occurs. There is a clear excecption in places where there has been specific racial segregation, isolation or preference (the American South or the Scarlet Brotherhood).

    For these reasons IMG most conflicts occur amongst nationalities, with the broad exception of the Sheldomar/Baklunish antimosity. Everyone hates/fears the Baklunish, and they view everyone in the East the same. The Flan from Geoff have little in common with those of the Rushmoors, and nothing with the Tenh. THey dont even know where Tenh is, or if it exists.

    What the Flan of the Sheoldomar do cling to are the tales of the 7 Kingdoms (my creation). These were 7 fairly insignificant city states that existed before the rise or Vecna. However, these tales have suffused most of the culture in Gran March and Northern Keoland (where my campaigns are set), and people who have not a drop of Flan blood often tell the same tales. Only amongst the noble houses, and only the most anachronistic of them, do they still try to marry Suel or Oerdian partners. Most are more worried about being "Keoish," if they have vision that far reaching. For many of the nobles the idea of Keoland is a little too far off, and they dream and talk of the "Court," refereing to Hookhill.

    So, back to the point, I like the idea that ethnicity and nationality are far more intrinsic to politics and daily life than race, at least along the Flan/Oerdian/Suel axis. The Baklunish have created a special place for themselves along side the SB and Giants with their invasion of Bissell.

    Just my 2 cents.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:45 am  

    I mostly agree with Anced that the old races extant at the time of the Great Migrations are no longer meaningful distinctions in the modern Flanaess.

    However, there are many examples of ethnic groups remaining separate for thousands of years in the real world, mostly due to linguistic or religious differences. To give a few examples: the Welsh (a separate group in William the Conqueror's time and still fairly distinct today), the Basques, the Kurds, the Jews, the Yazidis.

    What we shouldn't have is people saying things like, "Oh, Robilar's an Oeridian man." Or "Jallarzi Sallavarian is pretty friendly for a Suel." But they might say, "the Lathu are a Flan-descended people in southern Almor" or "Gord of Greyhawk has the olive complexion associated with the Oeridians (He's actually part elf and part cat, possibly with some Rhennee blood? And his father isn't even from Oerth.)." I'd say the Tenha or the Geoffites are as much Flan as the Welsh are Celts - which is to say, they're a Celtic people, but they're certainly distinguishable from their ancestors. Or the Urnstans are Suel in the same sense that the French are Franks. Maybe.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:51 pm  

    Rasgon,

    I think we are absolutely on the same page. There are defined and definite excecptions to my outline, and you hit good examples. There are3 still people throughout the world (Earth and Oerth) that defined themselves by race, or are defined by their race. However, titles like Franks, Celts, Romans, Gauls, etc., are far in the past. They could be relevent, if we made them so, but French, German, Italian, Irish, Scot, and English are more how the world is defined. Even in Africa, where groups feel that they go back millenia, the groups are often recent, and not racial but ethnic (though some groups claim a racial distinction that is solely ethnic).

    This is a more reasonable, and I think interesting view of Oerth.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 699
    From: On a Cape on the East Coast

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    Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:40 pm  
    Very good points about Ethnicity

    There are some really good points made here.

    I think that in our modern world, alot of people confuse race with ethnicity or nationality. People often say "race" when they mean these other things. They refer to their ancestors as "english" or "german" when these aren't races, they are nationalities.

    I think that it is much the same in Oerth. Just as our own country is an amalgam of anglo-, african-, and oriental-descended peoples, the nations of the Flanaess are very integrated in regards to Flan, Oeridian, Baklunish, and Suel. Linguistics go along the same lines. Few people would be surprised to hear Baklunish being spoken in the Free City, and just as little suprised to see a Baklunish person. Now if they saw an actual Ketite, Zief-ite, or Ekbir-ite person, they might be interested in their arrival in Grayhawk. A Modern analogy is that there are plenty of Hispanic people living in Texas, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are Mexican. and Cubans are most commonly thought of as having the same features of Mexican people. But in actuality, there is a large percentage of Cubans who are black. One wouldn't identify them by race, they would identify them by nationality. You wouldn't refer to him as a "Touv guy" ... one would recognize that he is Keoish, regarless of where his ancestors came from. (Although Keoish Touv might be an extreme example.)

    Few people take the time to distinguish between race and nationality in Greyhawk. As Rasgon mentioned, people wouldn't really be identified by race ... people in a Metropolitan culture don't do that. (At least not the majority of them.) It would be akin to saying, "He's pretty friendly for a white guy." Or, "Well, you know all Hispanics do that." Now if they said, "He's just as hostile as anyone I've met from the Scarlet Brotherhood", that wouldn't raise a single eye, I wouldn't think.

    The only exception that I can think of to this idea is that the Rhenee are both a race and a culture unto themselves. theirculture is found nowhere else, so their ethnicity, language and race are one and the same. So, in referring to them, others wouldn't be incorrect to discuss them that way.
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