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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Hopping Prophet
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    The Hopping Prophet
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:45 pm  
    The Hopping Prophet

    Looking over various modules and magazines I can't seem to find any adventures which deal with Wastri, The Hopping Prophet. This has always surprised me since he's technically a demigod and therefore a fitting challenge for high level campaigns. Has anyone created such a thing? Is there a high level adventure involving him in some issue of Dungeon that I missed?

    Here's what I know or have been able to deduce about Wastri thus far;

    1. Wastri was a student of Keveli Mauk, the founder of the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    2. Wastri got lost in the Vast Swamp while his Sueloise brethren were migrating south to the Tilva Lands. He ran into some sort of ancient stone temple and and was presumed dead for a while, then he reappeared with divine powers.

    3. Wastri developed an affinity for amphibians when he achieved godhood, so his ascension has something to do with these creatures.

    4. Wastri's former association with the original Scarlet Brotherhood under his master Mauk left him with extremely racist views. When he achieved godhood those Suel notions of 'purity' became corrupted to incorporate his new amphibious nature, but he was originally a Sueloise human.

    5. Wastri preaches a doctrine of hatred against all non-humans but makes an exception in his views for bullywugs and other frog-like creatures.

    6. Wastri lives in the Vast Swamp, a massive bog south of the kingdom of Sunndi, and he launches frequent raids north into that mountain ringed kingdom looking for demihumans to impale.

    7. Wastri was a very high level monk with plenty of wisdom and self discipline but not a lot of intelligence.

    I looked at all the online material and printed stuff I could find, and the 'inferred' story regarding Wastri I'll detail below. If anyone can see any glaring holes in my theory please let me know;

    While traveling through the Vast Swamp Wastri and his fellows stumbled across an ancient stone temple to the god Ramenos. Ramenos is a largely forgotten chaotic evil lesser deity who looks like a frog. He is thought to have a relationship with the yuan-ti deity Merrshaulk, and these two gods are both aspects of the primordial World Serpent archetype. Both gods spend most of their time sleeping on the same layer of the Abyss. At one time Ramenos was highly active and much more powerful than he is now. Before he fell into torpor for unknown reasons Ramenos is credited with having created a race of amphibious humanoids who later suffered a series of misfortunes and degenerated into what are now the Bullywug and Kuo-Toan races.

    While exploring this forgotten temple Wastri somehow roused an aspect of Ramenos. At the time Wastri was a 20th level monk and therefore he had achieved Outsider status. The demon god saw this in Wastri and decided to invest the monk with a measure of his power before falling back asleep. This sudden influx of chaotic evil divine magic drove the highly lawful Wastri mad, and he slipped into a long torpor like unto that of the god who had exalted him.

    Hundreds of years later Wastri woke up and slowly started to put his mind back in order. His memories had been altered and the creatures of the swamp flocked to worship him in dim ancestral recognition of his sponsors forgotten power. Wastri began preaching a twisted rendition of the doctrine of the Scarlet Sign, exalting amphibious forms of life AND humanity above all other creatures.

    This doesn't account for Wastri's endless hatred of demi-humans, but my theory for that goes something like this; Ramenos wasn't always in torpor. Someone or something PUT him into torpor, and the gods of humanity couldn't have done it because his ancient race fell into obscurity before men ever walked the Flanaess. The demi-human races such as elves and gnomes were active during those days however, and it seems likely that the gods of their respective pantheons banded together to defeat Ramenos and his fellow cold-blooded siblings. Ramenos knows this, and his hatred for the gods of the mortal races who supplanted his children lives on in Wastri. If anything it seems likely that Ramenos granted Wastri great power because he was terribly racist and held a dim view of the races Ramenos wished to avenge himself against.

    If these things are true then we have a good bead on why Wastri is the way he is. He never does much because he's lazy like Ramenos. He loves frog creatures because Ramenos created most of them and he feels a kinship with them.

    This would also answer another gnawing question I have; why are Death Slaadi Chaotic Evil instead of Chaotic Neutral? It states in the Monster Manual that Death Sladdi represent a corruption of the Chaotic Neutral alignment by Evil, and that there are rites they perform to undergo that metamorphosis. Who made those rites? Why do Slaadi feel the urge to perform them? Who do they learn these rites from? What chaotic evil divine agency was responsible for such a tradition? Ramenos is a good candidate I think.

    With this kind of un-developed cannon I can see a truly epic module being put together for when Wastri DOES decide to make his move. A journey to the Abyss, frog-like demons, the resurrection of the ancient amphibious race (Aurans? Batrachians?), the coming of the World Serpent aspects when the time is ripe for them to wake and eat the world, and so forth.

    In all the books I've skimmed Wastri has always seemed to be an afterthought. He's just some dude who sits in a swamp croaking about how much gnomes suck and planning to go stab them with his bullywug friends. But if he is in fact a demigod elevated to power by an aspect of the World Serpent that's another matter entirely. He goes from being a lame footnote to a terrifying threat.

    Wastri is, after all, The Hopping Prophet

    And if you believe what's written in The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement, he's much older than Iuz.

    [/i][/b]
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:15 pm  

    you sure know A LOT more than me, but in greyahwk city box set, theres one adventure called "bathing time of the hopping prophet" (or something like that).

    maybe its a start, huh?
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    Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:26 pm  
    Boxed?

    Can you tell me anything else about this boxed set? When it came out or anything like that?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:49 am  

    Rossik is refering the City of Greyhawk box set, also called the Blue Box. It is compatible with both AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition products, and in addition to two booklets and some maps it also includes a series of encounter cards. One of these is entitled "Bath Time for the Hopping Prophet" and is a low level encounter which is set in the city of Greyhawk.

    Here is a link to the boxed set on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/City-Greyhawk-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0880387319

    Also, as to the information on Wastri's origins in the original post, I am thinking that I remember it as only being conjecture; not stated fact. Other than that, the real reason that Wastri hates demi-humans can, of course, be found here:

    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/title/wogstrip24a.htm

    Laughing
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:18 am  
    lol

    Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. As for the comic....that's totally hilarious. Happy

    While it's true that most of what I wrote out is conjecture culled from various sources, I really wish there was solid cannon available for Wastri. A god of racism strikes me as a truly great villain from a role playing standpoint. Most adventures involve cutting down monsters and demons. Opposing racism when the Hopping Prophet and his agents are trying to foment bigotry and intolerance gives players a chance to really uphold their ethos.

    I'm toying with the idea of creating a good sized module as a long term project and submitting it to the site. I'll need a sounding board to discuss ideas as I go and perhaps offer up fresh encounter options to make it memorable.

    Is anyone in the Cannonfire community willing to stretch this thread out and provide advice for such a project?
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:20 am  

    Information on Wastri is also given in the second Greyhawk Gazetteer, the original DA2 The Temple of the Frog may also have info but I am not sure I never owned it (can be adapted at any rate ). I believe I seen a 3e update on that adventure somewhere also.
    P.S. you have a lot of good info as it is.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:40 am  
    Re: lol

    Horgast wrote:
    Is anyone in the Cannonfire community willing to stretch this thread out and provide advice for such a project?


    Already been done a little bit:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=889

    Plus a few other references:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=867

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=848

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=829

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=520

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=445

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23

    There are a few more tiny references in other articles(I didn't even search the forums where there is sure to be some discussion on Wastri), but it is always great to see more material added to the whole so be sure to either submit whatever you write up as an article or post it as a project thread.

    I'm sure that I am not the only one who looks forward to seeing some additional material having to do with Wastri.
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:00 pm  

    You should also check out the October 2002 issue of Dragon Magazine, wherein Gary Gygax gives some info on the origin and inspiration for Wastri. "Up on a Soapbox", p. 16; "The Incomplete Villain".

    Joe
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:14 pm  

    That would be Dragon #300(just in case anybody was wondering). Time to go dust it off. Wink
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:28 pm  

    Nightgor wrote:
    Information on Wastri is also given in the second Greyhawk Gazetteer, the original DA2 The Temple of the Frog may also have info but I am not sure I never owned it (can be adapted at any rate ). I believe I seen a 3e update on that adventure somewhere also.
    P.S. you have a lot of good info as it is.


    Wastri is not named in Temple of the Frog as that module was for the Blackmoor limited run setting for the original D&D game of the time. However, that Blackmoor setting has been by degrees incorporated into Greyhawk's Blackmoor. Soooo . . . either there are independent Northern and Southern froggies or they are related. There is one possible connection that jumps to mind.

    Wastri is a denizen of the Vast Swamp. That is also the location of the Tomb of Horrors. In the Return to the Tomb of Horros module a connection is made between a northern Flanaess (Yatil Mts.) necromancer and the southern cult that has grown up around Acererak's tomb. While not Wastri specific by any means, the ToH connection illustrates a north/south axis in a necromantic context. If one would choose, there could be a similar north/south axis in matters bachtrian.

    IMC, I connect the two and Wastri is a Flanaess-spanning threat, manifesting most notably in the Vast Swamp and Blackmoor. YMMV.
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:09 pm  

    Dragon #359 mentions an ancient civilization of sorcerous amphibians, now ruined, in the Cold Marshes.

    The World of Greyhawk boxed set (1983) said the Vast Swamp was Wastri's current home, implying he has lived elsewhere in the past. According to the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, there are ruined Wastrian temples in the Troll Fens as well, and mentions large numbers of Wastrian clerics in the Hool Marshes.

    My own interpretation is that Wastri made his base in the Troll Fens when Zagig captured him in 505 CY, and he returned to his original home in the Vast Swamp after his escape in 571. But he could have been anywhere in 505.

    The connection with Ramenos is one I had also considered; Monster Mythology mentions ancient temples of Ramenos in the southern wetlands, ruins of the advanced ancestors of the bullywugs. I assume that the ruin the mortal Wastri stumbled into was one of these. I think Wastri was somehow turned into an avatar of Ramenos, but has since become independent, using his spark of Ramenos's divinity to fuel his own apotheosis.

    The module Temple of the Frog is about a technological alien from another world who is creating hybrid frog-people for some reason. It'd have to be pretty radically reworked in order to have anything to do with Wastri.

    Gary Holian has suggested (in chat) that Wastri's antipathy toward demihumans isn't just Scarlet Brotherhood prejudice, but a remnant of the ancient days when the amphibian peoples who once dominated the Flanaess were routed by the elves and their allies, as recounted in the story of the Great Embarkation. Wastri and his followers somehow seem to believe that the origin of the human race is amphibious (perhaps they think humans were created by the ancient amphibian peoples or their gods), and that the strange hybrids Wastri is creating are somehow closer to humanity's rightful state.

    As for death slaadi, in 1st and 2nd edition and even edition 3.0, they're chaotic neutral, although it's suggested they've been corrupted to some degree by dark powers. With their death association, I think Orcus would make the most sense. Ramenos has nothing in common with them other than the fact that they look vaguely froglike. I would object strenuously to connecting slaadi any closer to mortal amphibians - they're personifications of chaos, creatures made from the substance of the Outer Planes, and any resemblance to mortal creatures is superficial. They're not related to frogs any more than glabrezu are related to dogs, or abishai are related to gargoyles. They shouldn't feel any kinship to the frog-god of the bullywugs.

    All known death slaad NPCs are listed as straight chaotic neutral in their stat blocks, so I don't think death slaadi are as corrupt as D&D 3.5 implies. I kind of hate the implication that they're corrupted at all; they're the most powerful non-unique members of the race that's supposed to stand in for the entire chaotic neutral alignment; making them corrupted by evil does a disservice to all chaotic neutral characters and the alignment as a whole. Slaadi shouldn't have any tendencies toward either good or evil. If you must make death slaadi corrupt, they should be balanced by a good-tending slaad caste of similar power.
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    Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:30 pm  

    I agree rasgon Wink

    Slaadi should remain (CN); the alignment espoused is often misunderstood. Since the original poor explaination with the PH; players confuse CN behavior with insane randomness. A lot of people have been uncomfortable with the neutral alignment. Good vs Evil is easy to explain to players.

    The Chaotic Neutral alignment is not the alignment of insane madmen . Entire societies within GH are CN and must function.

    Simply put; CN believe in personal trusted relations to achieve their common goals. These individuals distrust distant authority figures with power over their lives. These individuals espouse the benefits of local authority and champion individual rights. So societial abuses can be quickly discovered and resolved.

    If you know them, if you know what they care about, then you can rely on them to do their best to protect your interests, and if those interests are common to your own, they make excellent friends and allies.

    IE: The local tanner would prefer the local mayor have more local authority and would support him in this endeavor.

    CN Reasons (Support Mayor)
    1) He knows the mayor - he trusts him.
    2) He doesn't know the local lord; he could be a decent fellow or not.
    3) Something harmful to his family occurs but because of his personal relationship with the mayor he knows he can get help.
    4) The lord is unfamilar with his problems and may not care.

    It is in his interest to support the mayor.

    CN Reasons (Oppose Mayor)
    1) He knows the mayor as a mean spirited fellow - he distrusts him.
    2) He doesn't know the local lord; he could be a decent fellow or not
    3) Something harmful to his family occurs and his pleas are ignored.
    4) The lord is unfamilar with his problems and may not care.

    In this scenario: the tanner may leave to bring his concerns to the local lord asking people near the lord's castle about him before asking for an audience. If the lord is corrupt or unconcerned; the tanner will return to the village and oppose the mayor. If their isn't sufficent local support to form an opposition; the tanner would leave the village and settle elsewhere.

    Both are CN mindsets dependant on the personal relationship the CN person has with those around him. Whether he trusts the local authority to govern. If he does trust the local authority he feels secure and supports it. However if he distrusts the local authority; he opposes the authorities or leaves to settle elsewhere.

    The judgements of CN individuals are based upon their personal relationships and personal goals.

    Doesn't seem the ethics of an insane madman that charges a gorgon to me. Confused
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    Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:13 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    That would be Dragon #300(just in case anybody was wondering). Time to go dust it off. Wink


    Summary at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html :D

    Cebrion wrote:
    Horgast wrote:
    Is anyone in the Cannonfire community willing to stretch this thread out and provide advice for such a project?


    Plus a few other references:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=520


    Thanks for the plug, too!
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    Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:25 am  

    The wiki entry on Wastri includes a pic: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wastri
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    Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:48 am  
    excellent compilation

    Thank you all for the links and references to pre-existing work. It took me a while to skim them all and I plan to incorporate as much 'existing' Wastri cannon written by other parties into my project as possible. I do this for three reasons;

    First, the content is more likely to be compatible with 'mainstream' campaigns and therefore more likely to get used. I'm not writing this just for me. Besides that it's respectful of the community.

    Second, writing a campaign arc (Savage Tide, Age of Worms, etc) is a huge undertaking and any advantage I can leverage to reduce my workload is welcome. Many hands make light work and the project becomes less daunting. Plus it helps me get to know other DM's.

    Third, the best thing about published modules (in my opinion) is that they aren't 'tailored' to a certain group of players. This makes them feel more realistic and it absolves the DM of having to choose between 'using kid gloves' and 'trying to kill the players'. I'm a miser when it comes to giving out treasure. I'm filled with paranoia that I might go overboard and allow incidental power creep to ruin the challenging flavor of the game. Every time I haul out a module my players brighten up because it means their characters might actually get something cool which I don't have to feel horribly guilty about.

    I have some posting requests for anyone reading this with a lot of spare time on their hands who feels inclined...and/or up to the challenge;

    1. Pre-stated monsters with a "Wastrian" flavor running the gamut from CR 1 to CR 20+. Powerful is fine. Epic is fine. Obscure prestige classes in published 3.5 supplements are fine. Please no 'fringe d20 publishing group' prestige classes, as I'd like to keep this somewhat legit. Savage Tide did a real nice job giving Scout levels to certain monsters, if any of you are familiar with it. Some of the folks in EpicHawk were also complaining about a lack of epic content for Greyhawk. It'd be nice to give it to em 'Wastri style'.

    2. Sample templates for the "Batrachian" or "Auran" humanoids the players will encounter. My goal is a template I can slap onto a humanoid to make it frog-like...for some reason I'm reminded of The Shadow Over Innsmouth as portrayed by H.P. Lovecraft.

    3. New spells and/or magical items which might have been developed by the Wastrian clergy or affiliated groups. On a side note, escaped pilgrims from the Black Academy (Return to the Tomb of Horrors) could easily find their way into the content. New necromancy is always fun and welcome.

    4. Artwork. I know it's a lot to ask, and most people will immediately brush it off but...drawing is a talent I lack and someone out there might feel the inclination. I had to try.
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