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    Canonfire :: View topic - Elder gods
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    Elder gods
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:45 pm  
    Elder gods

    I've always preferred the idea that there have been many generations of deities. In many real-world mythologies, there's a succession myth: Zeus overthrows Cronus, who overthrows Uranus. Odin is the son of Borr, who was the son of Buri. Anu is the son of Anshar and Kishar, who are the children of Lahmu and Lahamu, who are the children of Tiamat and Apsu.

    Greyhawk has the other gods defeating Tharizdun, of course, though this is more of a Typhoeus-style defeating of the challenger to the throne than a succession myth (unless you want Tharizdun to be the former ruler of the universe, of course). And that only represents one generation, anyway.

    Elder gods, forgotten or dead in the present era, are handy things to have around. The PCs can explore their corpses, find artifacts created by them before the world was formed, or interrogate them to discover weaknesses of the current gods, or nemeses the younger gods have long since forgotten, or flaws in the cosmos itself. They can explore temples built by the elder gods to keep hidden the secrets of creation, now lying forgotten in the deserts of Pelion, or quest for the Dead Gods' Book. Elder gods bring with them an aura of unthinkable antiquity, and they're conveniently inactive, their spoils often fair game in situations where, for example, stealing Heironeous's axe would be impractical. And the players, of course, aren't expected to memorize them (if they're expected to memorize the names of any gods at all), because the whole point of them is that nobody remembers them anymore, except for perhaps a handful of sages, ancient immortal creatures continuing their tasks long after their original purpose died, or the gods themselves.

    In Greek myth, the oldest "gods," the protogenoi, personified abstract concepts. Out of primal Chaos was born Night and Eros and Tartarus and Gaea. Greyhawk has a few gods that seem like they might have risen fully-formed from the primal void - Istus, Boccob, Tharizdun, Beory, Nerull - but even here, I think it's interesting to postulate older versions that the present deities have replaced or usurped. Pelor, god of sunlight, the son of Ashelor, goddess of the luminous cloud from which the sun was born, daughter of Arelor, god of the light that existed before light, which is the only weakness of a primal vampiric monster or artifact. Istus, goddess of fate, daughter of Istana, goddess of thwarted destinies, who Istus cast down along with the stillborn universe that might have been. A few ancient titans still revere Istana in the hope that Istus's edicts can be denied and the earlier threads of fate rewoven. And before Istana was Isanaki, the sheep-headed goddess of nascent possibility, empty looms, and unwritten books, who sits forgotten in a long-abandoned wing of Istus's palace, but at whose loom anything can be begun again. Perhaps Nerull murdered an older, more neutral (or even benevolent) god of death whose scythe can counteract Nerull's own. Perhaps Boccob bound an older god of magic into his spellbook, and this is the source of his powers.

    I do think the gods created by Gary Gygax and others don't quite add up to a complete theogony. Other divinities are needed to bridge the gaps leading back to the beginning of all things.
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    Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:33 pm  

    Good topic. On Elder Gods I've always been mystified and confused by the relationship between the EEG and Tharizdun. A couple good sources...

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2008/06/thoughts-on-elder-elemental-god.html

    Quote:
    "In fact, Gygax himself stated as much himself:

    ...the Elder Elemental God I envisioned as an entity of vaguely Chronos-like sort, a deity of great power but of chaotic sort, and not always highly clever in thought and action. Eclavdra ... would prefer to have as "master" a powerful deity she might hope to influence, hence the EEG."


    and from DMPrata's Deitybase, the semi-notable Elder Elemental God(Eye?) is actually a trio?

    Quote:
    "In its true form, Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq appears as a huge, squid-like creature having ten hairy tentacles and being mottled with various shades and tints of purple and violet. It has a single golden eye that turns a fiery red-orange when the being is aroused. One of three Elder Elemental Gods (EEGs), Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq is a dark, creative deity that had spun form out of chaos in its portion of one universe and then lost control of it. Weakened and reduced to using its true form, the EEG fled to Oerth, hiding itself within the eternal darkness of Tharizdun's reign. When Pelor first shone and drove out Tharizdun, the EEG skulked into the dark recesses of UnderOerth (the underground world of Oerth), where it slowly regained its powers.
    Over time, the EEG drew the attention of evil giants. As the centuries passed, small groups of other races served as both worshipers and sacrifices to the EEG. Eventually, enclaves of ancient Flannae began to worship the alien being and were soon sacrificing to it. Discovering this corruption of her children, Beory became enraged. With matronly fury, she smote the evil god with her powerful staff, instantly changing the EEG into a column of stone. She followed this with a second terrible blow that reduced the column to rubble. In fact, the EEG was not destroyed but entrapped by Beory's blow. As a result, the deity is crippled and can only
    access the Prime Material Plane through these fragments. It greatly desires to be freed. It is unknowable what the EEG's true area of control is. What is known is that the deity provides personal power and prowess to those evil humans, drow, and giants who sacrifice to it. Temples and shrines are built around shards of the EEG. These shards are scattered throughout UnderOerth, in subterranean caves, labyrinths, and rifts. Most are hidden beneath mountain ranges, deep gorges, and oceanic abysses. It is in these places that the depraved worshipers of the EEG may be found.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:53 pm  

    I, as well, have always held the notion that the current generation of gods (in whatever campaign world you use) is merely the latest pantheon in a long succession of pantheons. Hence my musings on my Life, the Multiverse and Everything webpage. Each new pantheon attempts to wipe out all memory of the previous pantheons (sometimes quite successfully, given enough time, sometimes less so). Hence the theistic propaganda about how the current gods "created" all that there is.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
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    Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:39 am  

    I'd like to recall my theory about Tharizdun not being a god, but two or more pantheons of gods. Read it here.

    I think the gods who are in charge now have all committed a secret crime to access power and, then, told the story that the older gods they have defeated are definitively evil. But is that true? Were the Elder Gods banished because they were evil, or were they banished because the younger gods wished more power, and thus was the way to get more power.

    As usual Maldin's GUT always rules.
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    Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:11 am  

    Yes! Even the demons (tanar'ri) lords overthrew older, more primitive versions of chaos and evil, the obyrith. In some ways, the obyrith seem even more powerful than modern demons, but their influence waned because their nature was so alien to the human psyche, thus denying them worshipers (presumably).
    Forum Moderator

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    Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:24 am  

    Ah yes I was hoping the obyriths would come out too. Now you have me thinking that Elder Gods should not be limited to the human perspective. Any old race, the more alien the better, is going to have Elder Gods that are contemporary with humans'. Maybe Illithids, Aboleth, Beholders...

    Then there are the Elder Elemental Princes of which I am hazy on. Are they considered near deity level like Demon Lords? Are they the offspring of Elder Elemental Gods?

    Oh and let's not forget the Far Realms and their unknown entities. They have played into my campaign's Epic plots many times over.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:48 pm  

    Maldin wrote:
    I, as well, have always held the notion that the current generation of gods (in whatever campaign world you use) is merely the latest pantheon in a long succession of pantheons. Hence my musings on my Life, the Multiverse and Everything webpage. Each new pantheon attempts to wipe out all memory of the previous pantheons (sometimes quite successfully, given enough time, sometimes less so). Hence the theistic propaganda about how the current gods "created" all that there is.


    I've long been an admirer of that essay. While my list of "uses" for elder gods above depends on them being "real," I'm actually more interested in what people in the campaign believe to be true - the theistic propaganda, if you will - than what "really" happened. The myths I've included in this thread are blatantly propaganda (usually for Pholtus, in one case for Ralishaz) and there are no elder gods in them at all, but in most cases I think theologians of the Flanaess, like the Greeks, Babylonians, and Norse, would be willing to admit the presence of one or more older generations of gods who no longer rule the cosmos. This interests me quite a bit, though it's difficult to invent gods out of whole cloth and have them still feel like a firm part of the setting.

    Mortellan: the Elder Elemental God as portrayed by Gygax is a great example of an elder god. The aboleth powers, or "elder evils," also fit the description; at least some of them are associated with the Far Realm, but they've all allegedly been involved with the Material Plane since before the humanoid gods or even non-aboleth life came into existence. Similarly, non-mammalian gods like Ramenos and Merrshaulk would presumedly predate the mammalian deities. I'm not sure what you mean by "elder elemental princes" - would these be the same as the elemental princes of evil, or more along the lines of Gary Holian's Lords of the Elder Elements?

    At the same time, as above, I'd find them more interesting if I could fit them on to a family tree that also contained Pelor and Heironeous somewhere.

    Beside the obyriths, there are the neutral evil baernaloths and the lawful evil "ancient Baatorians." There are supposed to be equivalent beings representing neutrality and good, but they haven't been officially named, unless the neutral kamerel and the lawful neutral aphanacts are among their number.

    There are also the "Ancient Brethren" from Die Vecna Die!
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    Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:29 pm  

    Rasgon: Yes Elemental Princes of Evil, Elemental and Evil associations get me confused sometimes.

    I thought of another Elder association, not sure if its meant to be Elder gods though, but it is Rob Kuntz's Lost City of Elders.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:38 pm  

    I make that association too. One player of mine still wants to make a Dagger Obelisk. I am hoping RJK will detail the Lost City of the Elders at some point rather than having to do it myself. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:37 am  

    That's what Garden of the Plantmaster was. Supposedly there's more to the city than just the garden, but you get a pretty good idea of what the city is supposed to be from that module.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:14 am  

    Just some notes on “elder gods” –

    The Titan Myth (aka Cronos) has been imported into GH “canon” via the Dragon Magazine article (357?) on titans.

    Many of the gods introduced into D&D for the first time in 3rd Edition, which have weak or questionable ties to GH (via 1) the default setting idea and/or 2) cross-references to known GH figures), would seem immediate possibilities for “elder gods,” e.g., Zarus, Erivatius. There are also similar 3rd Edition gods which bring with them entire new pantheons, e.g., Tarmuid.

    It is also possible to use gods introduced for the first time in 2nd Edition “generic” products that were later incorporated into GH, e.g., Dargeshaad/Gavendes.

    Then there are the "elder" sorts of gods associated with demi-humans or monsters too boot.

    Lots of possibilities.

    Cool topic.
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    Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:40 pm  

    Most accept the premise that the current collection of deities banded together to imprison Tharizdun to perserve the multiverse. However given the circular nature of creation and entrophy within GH; how can we assume the current creation cycle is the first one. Perhaps the deities and Tharizdun are not fully aware of the true extent of the endless cycle. These elder beings are the remnants of former cycles of creation.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:37 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Many of the gods introduced into D&D for the first time in 3rd Edition, which have weak or questionable ties to GH (via 1) the default setting idea and/or 2) cross-references to known GH figures), would seem immediate possibilities for “elder gods,” e.g., Zarus, Erivatius. There are also similar 3rd Edition gods which bring with them entire new pantheons, e.g., Tarmuid.


    Zarus, or another figure like him, is arguably necessary if we want to create a (real or imagined by mortal theologians) genealogical connection between the various pantheons. That is, we need a common ancestor for the human gods, one not part of an existing pantheon, to be a bridge between the pre-human elder gods, who are the shared ancestors of all the racial pantheons, and those gods who are specifically human. Zarus has been criticized because he's lawful evil ("Why is it evil for humans to worship a racial deity but not dwarves?") but I would argue that's even an advantage, since it explains why the younger human gods rebelled against him, deposed him, or simply ignore him.

    Erivatius and the other members of the "long-forgotten pantheon" from Dungeon #123 are also strong candidates to be ancestors of the modern Oerthly gods. Erivatius is god of aging and death, lieutenant of the evil goddess Vourzoun. Also mentioned was Faynsor, the good deity of knowledge and time. They're all conveniently dead now, but perhaps other remnants remain.

    Another lost pantheon is the one that Demogorgon destroyed through his machinations (mentioned in his Demonomicon article), which was digested by the Abyss to form the race of loumara demons. Like Erivatius's pantheon, they could simply be the gods of another world; another possibility is that these were the gods worshipped by the ancestors of the Olman people before they turned to the alien deities of the Central American pantheon.

    Tarmuid, as described in Races of Destiny, is only 600 years old or so, though the 4th edition Manual of the Planes rewrote their origin to make the illumians an elder race, eons old and associated with the forgotten pantheon of the outer planar desert ruins (similar to the one alluded to in the 2nd edition adventure Dead Gods). If you choose to use the latter version, Tarmuid and the other illumian gods would certainly be elder gods of a sort, though it remains an open question if they have any connection to the currently active gods.

    Quote:
    It is also possible to use gods introduced for the first time in 2nd Edition “generic” products that were later incorporated into GH, e.g., Dargeshaad/Gavendes.


    Okay, Dargeshaad is a demigod mentioned in Return to the Tomb of Horrors; again, he might simply be a god of another world, since the Negative Energy Plane doubtless connects to more than one, but he could be an elder god too if that was desired. Who is Gavendes?

    You might also add Anguileusis, the imprisoned demigod who plays a role in Bruce Cordell's 2nd edition trilogy of sahuagin adventures.
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    Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:00 pm  

    Rasgon's knowledge of obscure deities astounds even me sometimes. I was about left in the dust until he mentioned Anguileusis. That's a mod I actually ran so I see where he's coming from.

    How about something more close to home and misunderstood like, the Earth Dragon?
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:02 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Rasgon's knowledge of obscure deities astounds even me sometimes.


    Blame GVD; he brought them up. I had to get Google to remind me who Erivatius was, and it took Jason Zavoda's index to identify Dargeshaad. I still don't know who Gavendes is.
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    Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:52 pm  

    GVD eh? Well there's plenty of blame to go around for him too! Gavendes, hmm, yeah I'm finding nothing pertinent on that name either.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:48 am  

    I was able to find out a little bit of info on Garden of the Plant Master, which is recommended for characters of levels 8th-9th. I was thinking it would be for higher level characters than that seeing as it would have spun of from Modenkainan's Fantastic Adventure(if set in Greyhawk rather than Kalamar that is). I may still hunt down a copy, as the mage in my campaign who has the Tome of the Black Heart is around 12th level and he could bring some lower level characters along with him on his quest to find the city. I could also treat the Dagger Obelisk "gate" as a gate to the alterante world of Kalamar rather than to a pocket plane as I had thought to do.
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    Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:45 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Ah yes I was hoping the obyriths would come out too. Now you have me thinking that Elder Gods should not be limited to the human perspective. Any old race, the more alien the better, is going to have Elder Gods that are contemporary with humans'. Maybe Illithids, Aboleth, Beholders...


    I'm definitely a fan of generations of gods and other beings, in particular demons :D

    Cebrion wrote:
    I was able to find out a little bit of info on Garden of the Plant Master, which is recommended for characters of levels 8th-9th. I was thinking it would be for higher level characters than that seeing as it would have spun of from Modenkainan's Fantastic Adventure(if set in Greyhawk rather than Kalamar that is). I may still hunt down a copy, as the mage in my campaign who has the Tome of the Black Heart is around 12th level and he could bring some lower level characters along with him on his quest to find the city. I could also treat the Dagger Obelisk "gate" as a gate to the alterante world of Kalamar rather than to a pocket plane as I had thought to do.


    WRT GotPM, the original CU version is for levels 6-12, but I think 9-12 is in general more apt in general, given it's hideous dangers.

    It's relation to the LCotE is both deep, and tangential. As published, it sits within the LCotE, but PCs can't very easily exit the Garden to explore the City, so in that sense, it's tangential and stands alone well. From a historical POV, IIRC it was the primary means for Mordenkainen to enter the LCotE in the first place, but I could be mixing that up with other stuff. I'll ask Rob when we talk next.

    The original manuscript for LCotE clocks in at about 90 pages, and is definitely on the list of ones to be expanded and published (a la Bottle City) over the next few years by Rob. If you're interested, there's additional hints and lore dropped on the PPP boards @ http://piedpiperpublishing.yuku.com/forums/24
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    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:50 am  

    Crag wrote:
    Most accept the premise that the current collection of deities banded together to imprison Tharizdun to preserve the multiverse. However given the circular nature of creation and entropy within GH; how can we assume the current creation cycle is the first one. Perhaps the deities and Tharizdun are not fully aware of the true extent of the endless cycle. These elder beings are the remnants of former cycles of creation.


    The first edition Manual of the Planes said in its entry on the Demi-Plane of Imprisonment, "The forebears of the beings known as the Great Powers of all alignments defeated this creature and its servants..." I've always liked this idea, that Tharizdun was imprisoned in days so ancient that the present gods aren't old enough to remember it.

    It's since been established in canon that Pelor, at least, had a part to play in Tharizdun's imprisonment. Whether any other present deities did depends on how many are of Pelor's generation.

    In 22 Questions on Tharizdun, Gary Gygax suggests a cyclical weakening of Tharizdun's prison, so even without assuming successive universes, it's possible that imprisoning Tharizdun is something each divine generation has to do again.

    Or, alternately, Tharizdun was imprisoned for the first time relatively recently, as the gods reckon time, long after the time of the elder gods.
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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:15 pm  

    Haven't even looked at this site in quite awhile but you guys got me thinking on this with the talk of gods from other worlds. What if there was only one world originally. Then, due to cosmic catastrophe or meddling of the Elder gods, it split to form it's current form? Maybe Tharizdun isn't trying to destroy everything but put it back to it's original form. Which would still cause destruction of everything that has formed since. That would be a really good selfish reason for the current gods to keep him imprisoned as they don't want to lose their little corner of the multiverse.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:09 pm  

    Hello all,

    I wanted to address a few points as I am catching up after an abscence.

    I think the biggest failing of GH gods/myth, is the lack of any significant creation myths. That seems to be the seminal purpose of most real world religions: Where did we come from and why are we here? I have used a few different myths of my own devising in various campaigns, and they have worked well, but I have never seen or read one which would be compelling enough to use as a canon/fanon style myth. i.e. my myth worked well for the story I was telling, but couldn't work, or wouldn't work well applied to GH as a whole, or even to a single god. This, it seems to me, would be an excellent topic for a post fest.

    In my campaign cosmos, I have constructed deities/demons/elementals a little differently. IMG, demons, devils, elementals, are "Powers." These are creatures whose power is something internal. "Deities," are generally more powerful than the "Powers," but this is because they are focus and the funel of the belief and faith of thousands or millions of worshippers.

    A god may have been a power, and a power may become a god by acquiring worshippers. There is ascension and descension among the ranks. Pantheons, as i concieve them, come and go. They are more powerful than the "Powers," but wane much faster, due to their dependance on worshippers.

    In my conception, elementals are the oldest of creatures, which would explain their attraction/affinity for Tharzidun. Becuase they are so basic, so different from "life," they are IMG more bizzare than creatures from thee far realm.

    Denziens of the outerplanes are also very old, but they tend to have generations also, even if they are far longer than those of gods. This follows the principal that eventually everyone slips up; when they do, someone else on the ladder pulls them down or passes them up. The fact that the Obryiths fell at about the same time the current generation of gods rose is concidental in my game.

    I recently started a new path in one of my campaigns with the Princes of Elemental Evil, (most of the ideas came from assistance provided by CF! contributors). It is in this that these ideas are starting to come into play, and the idea of elder gods is causing distress (or will be). The Princes are older IMG, than all the current gods, and date back to the Wars of Chaos.

    So, did the battle of Pesh predate the current gods? the Isles of Woe? IMC the answer is yes for most of the gods.
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:36 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Who is Gavendes?


    Dargeshaad first appeared in the 2E College of Wizardry accessory (Copyright 1997). Gavendes is another name for Dargeshaad, hence “Dargeshaad/Gavendes.” See College of Wizardry, p. 10. Gavendes translates as “Slaughterer.”

    College of Wizardry, as first presented, was related to Greyhawk tangentally and directly. Tangentally, there were conversion notes for placing the accessory in the World of Greyhawk. See College of Wizardry, p. 9.

    Directly, Bruce Cordell, who wrote College of Wizardry, also wrote Return to the Tomb of Horrors (Copyright 1998), set explicitly in the World of Greyhawk. In Return to the Tomb of Horrors, Cordell incorporated almost all of the backstory from College of Wizardry into Greyhawk, including Dargeshaad, the Warlock Strife, the Black/Bleak Academy and even NPCs. Moreover, College of Wizardry directly references (the then forthcoming) Return to the Tomb of Horrors, see College of Wizardry, p. 30, and by necessary implication (as the Tomb is iconically set in Greyhawk) the World of Greyhawk.

    NB – Sorry for the tardiness of my reply. Real life has been giving me a run for my money for some time.
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:12 pm  

    I hadn't read that before. Interesting stuff. Working the College of Wizardry backstory into Oerth would be challenging; using its own conversion notes, the Dragon of Shades caused "the Invoked Devastation that created the Sea of Dust." The Invoked Devastation, as we know, created the Sea of Dust only indirectly by inviting retribution in the form of the Rain of Colorless Fire. What's interesting is that the Dragon of Shades was summoned by the High Sorcerer of Mathghamhna, a Baklunish spellcaster, in order to stop a demigod (Dargeshaad) who had been unleashed by another Baklunish spellcaster who defected to the Suloise Empire, making the Devastation mostly the fault of the Baklunish. If the Baklunish then brought down the Rain of Colorless Fire because they blamed the Suloise for the whole thing, that makes them look really bad... they're pretty much history's greatest villains. Yes, Dargeshaad was evidently awakened in the Suel Basin, and the Warlocks who served him were likely disproportionately Suloise, so I can see how the Baklunish might have interpreted the Warlock Strife as an attack by the Suloise... but it still turns the whole thing into at best a tragic misunderstanding, and at worst a scapegoating.

    It's so at odds with other portrayals of the Baklunish-Suloise Wars that incorporating it into one's own version of Greyhawk would be a pretty radical change. Not necessarily a bad one, but certainly different.
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:35 pm  

    I don’t see too much trouble reconciling CoW with known GH history:

    The Warlock, exiled from the College of Wizardry (more properly Mathghamhna, see College of Wizardry, p. 6) and “a renegade Baklunish sorcerer who defected to the Suloise Empire,” released Dargeshaad/Gavendes to augment his personal power but Dargeshaad eventually rebelled and attempted to conquer the world. The High Sorcerer of the College of Wizardry unleashed the Dragon of Shades to stop Dargeshaad. The Dragon of Shades defeated Dargeshaad but went on to commit so much wanton destruction that it brought an end to the “Elder Age” while ushering in a Dark Age – “The Cataclysm was the Invoked Devastation that created the Sea of Dust.”

    The Warlock is clearly Baklunish. The High Sorcerer is likely Baklunish as well because the College of Wizardry was located within the Baklunish Empire. The Warlock, however, goes over to the Suel. The Suel likely accepted the Warlock because a) he had considerable power/knowledge (ie summoning Dargeshaad or knowledge of the Language Primeval) or b) the Suel had no choice once the Warlock summoned Dargeshaad. The exact explanation is unclear.

    The more troublesome part is the reference to the Invoked Devastation and the creation of the Sea of Dust. The Suel brought down the Invoked Devastation on the Baklunish. The Baklunish then unleashed the Rain of Colorless Fire which created the Sea of Dust where the Suel Imperium had previously been. See 83 Box, p. 8. Cordell got it backwards – the Invoked Devastation did not create the Sea of Dust – at least not directly.

    However, in the interests of harmonizing the texts and as noted, it might be said that the Invoked Devastation did “create” the Sea of Dust because the calling down of the Invoked Devastation by the Suel was what prompted the Baklunish to call down the Rain of Colorless Fire that created destroyed the Suel Imperium and created the Sea of Dust. “Creation” at one remove.

    The role of the Dragon of Shades in all this was “Rampaging across the length and breadth of the land, the creature brought a paroxysm of darkness and destruction with every wingbeat. . . . Only after the Dragon had desecrated the face of the World and its passion burned low did it dissipate, allowing the wan light of day to reveal the full destruction the creature had wrought.” Again, looking to harmonize texts, perhaps the Dragon of Shades had some role in the coming of the Rain of Colorless Fire.

    Was the Rain of Colorless Fire the breath of the Dragon of Shades, metaphorically or actually? Since Dargeshaad was fighting on the Suel side (after a fashion as he was summoned by a Baklunish sorcerer gone over to the Suel) and the Dragon of Shades was fighting on the Baklunish side (after a fashion as the Baklunish High Sorcerer summoned the Dragon of Shades to fight Dargeshaad), this could work.

    Alternatively, the Dargashaad/Dragon of Shades conflict could be a literal or metaphorical overlay to the more familiar Suel/Baklunish conflict and/or the Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire. Either wholly symbolic embellishment or a subtext/hypertext to the conflict.

    There is no need to absolutely decide but I think that the Dargeshaad/Dragon of Shades mythology can be harmonized with the Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire mythology so long as the College of Wizardry is not taken absolutely literally. Taken literally, to a certainty, Cordell intended to add the College of Wizardry backstory to Greyhawk but just as certainly he got his facts garbled.

    I might timeline it like this:

    1st – Suel begin conflict with Baklunish, both sides subsequently using mercenaries

    2nd – Warlock is exiled from CoW, goes over to the Suel

    3rd – Warlock summons Dargeshaad to placate/cement/establish his place among the Suel

    4th - Dargeshaad provides knowledge as to how to call down Invoked Devastation to Warlock, who provides it in turn to Suel

    5th – Invoked Devastation unleashed on Baklunish, Dargeshaad freed from Warlock’s control in the process

    6th – Dargeshaad possesses Suel Emperor but is detected by High Sorcerer, who is detected by Dargeshaad in turn

    7th – High Sorcerer summons Dragon of Shades as Dargeshaad moves to destroy CoW

    8th – Dragon of Shades descends on Suel Imperium bringing Rain of Colorless Fire. Dragon of Shades destroys Dargeshaad (and possessed Suel Emperor) but also the Suel Imperium

    Because the Dragon of Shades and Dargeshaad conflict is personal, most might not know of their roles behind the scenes. They just see the “side effects” of that conflict – Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire. Thus, GH continuity remains intact.

    The Suel remain “bad” guys – starting the fight and willing to use the knowledge of how to call down the Invoked Devastation – while the Baklunish are by some measure more “good” or tragic after being betrayed by one of their own. That the Baklunish are betrayed by one of their own doesn't transform the Baklunish, as a whole, into villains, nor does it make the Suel/Baklunish conflict really a Baklunish/Baklunish conflict.

    Obviously, YMMV
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:18 pm  

    I use Tharizdun as a manipulator of personnel, not the evil world destroyer that everyone goes with. In my Campaign he was imprisoned by the gods because Asmodeus could not let him remain free and created a complex web of decite to fool the gods into believing that he is this evil and corrupt entity. He is infact 'Magic' personified, one of the ancient brethren, who has evolved into the creature that is now imprisoned. A Chaotic creature tainted by being imbibed with a touch of law.

    Whilst Tharizdun is imprisoned he still has the ability to lure individual with the promise of power, strength, riches or any other prize by reaching out to people and speaking to them through dreams to get that person to try and free him. This also has the effect of making some of those that he has reached to appear to be crazy as they hear voices etc and has lead to the Cult of Tharizdun being raised.

    The Destroyer of worlds idea to me seems pretty redundant. This is only my opinion but is a way by which I have linked a lot of loose ends in the Greyhawk history and also explains why the strength of magic seems to have declined.

    a basic description of the link between tharizdun and Asmodeus is at:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LxFbDd7OKYU/SXOrwvmyxvI/AAAAAAAAAAs/ySV9crYzYJU/s1600-h/TheTheory+behind+Tharizdun+%26+Asmodeus.jpg
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    Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:36 pm  

    I don't see Tharizdun as an intentional destroyer of worlds, but as a megalomaniac that is self-destructive due to an all pervading madness married to unrelenting evil. This is very similar to the Elder Elemental God who is pretty much madness(with a twist) deified. To be a follower of either, one simply must have more than a few screws loose. :D

    I see this odd sense of self-destuction as the weak point in such elder gods that allowed the newer gods to gain the upper hand in the fight against them and drive them away/imprison/destroy them. I like most of these old elder gods still lurking about in the fringes, with only one maybe having been destroyed long ago; incidentally taking out the god who did it in the process no less. It makes for a great legendary tale, and perhaps sews the seeds for the return of a supposedly dead god who never got the chance to gain a proper foothold among the races of Greyhawk.
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    Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:10 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    It makes for a great legendary tale, and perhaps sews the seeds for the return of a supposedly dead god who never got the chance to gain a proper foothold among the races of Greyhawk.


    Or an actual dead god. One of the coolest things Planescape added to D&D IMO is the idea of dead gods floating in the Astral Plane that can be "explored." And, of course, the companion idea that dead gods might be resurrected.
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    Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:34 am  

    That too, though I didn't mention it as it is already touched upon in Planescape. In my view the Elder Gods are not so much dead as simply forgotten or dormant. They don't need to be resurrected so much as simply awaken or be rediscovered by someone who worships them, thereby drawing their attention back to Oerth once again. The Dead Gods angle from Planescape can be easily worked in too of course. There's even a whole book on it(for those who don't know). Happy



    Starting at $94.99 on Amazon?! Wow!!! The PDFs disappear and the values go nutso! Bloody horrible. Just had to say it, though let's not look at this as an excuse to go off on a PDF tangent now. On the upside, maybe I can sell a few things and pay off my car loan. :D
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