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    Canonfire :: View topic - Vecna vs. Orcus vs. Nerull
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Vecna vs. Orcus vs. Nerull
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 17, 2009
    Posts: 14
    From: Arkansas

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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:51 am  
    Vecna vs. Orcus vs. Nerull

    Ok, so as mentioned elsewhere, I am in the beginning stages of starting (resuming in some ways) my Greyhawk campaign. I have decided to keep things fairly simple at least at first, so the game will start with some one off adventure hooks and basic encounters to allow everyone to get back in the swing of things. However, that doesn't mean I don't want to have a fairly rich background in place.

    To that end I am working on some encounters for the party that have the potential to become major plotlines in the campaign. One of these involves a cult of necromancers that are stealing corpses from the local village cemetaries. At first blush its just some evil clerics raising undead for some unknown fiendish purpose...but I would like to link it to something bigger. This is what gives rise to my quandry.

    For a cult of secret clerics raising undead, it seems that Orcus makes the most sense as the power behind it. However, it seems that Orcus really doesn't like or encourage his followers to raise undead. So then I started to wonder about the interrelation between the cults of Orcus, Vecna and even Nerull. As I understand it Orcus is on the cusp of godhood and could thus pose a potential rival to Nerull. Likewise, it would seem that a cult of Vecna could be behind the raising of an undead army.

    So I guess I wonder which makes the most canonical sense to be behind such a force. Also, would there likely be any attempt by the followers of Nerull or Vecna to try to stop Orcus' machinations or would they simply not care?
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 563
    From: brazil

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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:03 pm  

    nice plot!


    i believe that since is just a village, they wouldnt care.
    also, i think that any order have diferent ways to think, so there may be some orcus followers that think this is right, and some may think is not good!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 30, 2002
    Posts: 147
    From: 1313 StoneCastle Way, Free City of Dyvers, W0G 13F

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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:18 pm  

    Greets Xilinar, I'm a bit bias when it comes to Nerull and if I had a bad guy to steal the scene in a particular venture, it would be Nerull. Orcus I feel (mainly from my 1st Ed experiences....so long ago Sad ) is someone who will stick to the Abyss and Vecna is more content on sitting back, maybe awaiting the Federal Express delivery of his eye and hand Laughing along with me for my Tiamat mini... victims of lost mail, but not to deviate, Nerull seems more sinister and would most likely of your three be the "cooler" one Cool , but this is just my opinion, others will most likely present arguments for the others.

    Nerull, with his undead affiliations would most likely be best served cold within an ancient tomb, a garnish of poison ivy, and a misty glaze.... maybe one of those isles off of the western coastline of the old Great Kingdom could have an ancient and partially submerged tomb of some long forgotten WitchKing who Nerull was a principle God of worship? ...and buried is an artifact long thought lost ... maybe post marked to Vecna! Wink

    Good luck on whatever you decided, however the amount of info available here to assist you is grand and should keep your creative juices flowing with "witch-ever" Wink endeavour you take.

    Game on! Happy

    AncientGamer Cool aka Buster Budd
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:34 pm  
    Re: Vecna vs. Orcus vs. Nerull

    Xilinar wrote:
    For a cult of secret clerics raising undead, it seems that Orcus makes the most sense as the power behind it. However, it seems that Orcus really doesn't like or encourage his followers to raise undead.


    What makes you think that? There are references to Orcus not liking undead, but Orcus hates everyone equally, demons, undead, and mortals alike; he still encourages his followers to raise undead as much as possible. They're actually required to do so, or to bring corpses to those with the ability to do so, on every new moon.

    A pretty sorry excuse for a demon prince of the undead he'd be if he didn't like his followers to create more of them. The point of him not liking undead is just that he doesn't exempt them from his general hatred of everything in existence. He doesn't go easy on them or make an exception when he wants to destroy something. He doesn't say, "I generally want to torture everyone I meet in hideously unpleasant and probably obscene ways, but not you, because you're a vampire and I like vampires." Oh no, he hates the vampire just as much. But undead are still his thing. They're what his power are focused on, and the main theme of his realm and the main pursuit of his cultists.

    Nerull has a similar attitude toward undead. When he goes out on his excursions, he slaughters undead with just as much enthusiasm as he slaughters the living. He doesn't want to see the world populated with undead instead of living people - he wants everything still as the grave, because he's murdered everything that moves. But in the meantime, he doesn't mind his clerics animating corpses; they're not any more annoying to him than they were when they were alive, after all, and it just gives him the opportunity to destroy them himself later on, if he feels like it.

    Unlike Orcus, though, undeath isn't Nerull's main focus. Nerull is primarily the god of the dead, underworld, murder, darkness, and so forth. Undeath isn't really part of his portfolio. His clerics are often adept at creating them, but Nerull has a lot of other things on his plate, so undeath isn't really something he spends much time thinking about. If it moves, he wants to kill it, but there are so many things to kill that undead aren't a priority in any sense.

    Cultists of Nerull don't worship undeath; they worship death, the stilling of the heart, the slowing of the lungs, the dust of the grave. They worship murder and the dismal caverns where dead souls weep eternally. Some may turn themselves into undead, believing the undead are closer to their deity than the living. Some may use undead minions because walking corpses are an atmospheric, stylish thing for a death cultist to have, or because the undead are really good at murdering people. But all other things being equal, Nerulliacs are just as happy to be around regular corpses as animated ones, if not more so. It's more a matter of "if this subterranean temple is going to be filled with bones and stinking bodies anyway, they might as well walk around and make me a sandwich."

    Vecna's priests often know about creating undead too; their god is undead, after all. However, that's not Vecna's focus, and it's not his priests' focus either, generally. Vecna is the god of secrets, magic, and intrigue. He's interested in the secrets of undeath, but no more so than the secrets of the Great Kingdom or the secrets of dragons or the secrets of conjuration/summoning, enchantment, or any other school of magic. Undead to Vecna are just another means to an end, so it's unlikely his cultists are just going to be creating undead for its own sake. If they're making undead, it's so they can do research on exactly how little you can feed a vampire before it goes into a coma, or they're trying to create a new kind of wight that steals charisma, or they're trying to make invisible spirits that can listen in on the conversations of the Greyhawk Thieves' Guild.

    Of the three beings you mention, then, Orcus is the only one whose cult is focused primarily on creating undead - not as a means to an end, but for its own sake, because that's what their primary reason for being is. You worship the Demon Prince of Undeath because you revere undeath and all that's related to it. If you didn't, you'd probably stick with Graz'zt or Baphomet or Malcanthet or whoever else. There's no reason to worship Orcus unless undead are something you're very much in favor of.

    That said, the culprits could be any number of groups; just because Orcus is the most fervent about doing this doesn't mean the others won't as well, if they have a reason to. Any gods or fiends who allow their clerics to create and control undead (which is most of the evil ones, and some of the neutral ones) could be behind it, given sufficient motivation.

    Kyuss is a hero-deity who considers undeath to be his primary focus (that, and getting freed from his prison), so cultists of Kyuss might work as well. Of course, Kyuss's undead are pretty distinctive, more likely to be filled with green worms than normal ghouls and spectres.

    And we mustn't forget Iuz! The Lord of Pain has more than his share of necromancers and undead minions. Not his primary focus by any means, but he has no problem with his cultists making them.

    As for Orcus reaching for godhood, he's done it before and Nerull didn't seem to mind. Orcus was probably a demigod or lesser god, so he wasn't really in Nerull's league; plus, as above, they really aren't really in the same business, since Orcus was focused on undeath and Nerull wasn't. Vecna was too obscure to matter in those days, but he isn't really in the same business Orcus is in, either. Orcus's main opponents would be Graz'zt and Demogorgon, and the drow goddess Kiaransalee, who was responsible for Orcus's death. When Orcus returned to life, he drove her out of the Abyssal layer she had claimed as her own, and she and would be very afraid of Orcus getting enough power to finish her off once and for all.

    Check the wiki:
    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Orcus
    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kiaransalee
    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Nerull
    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vecna

    I'm also proud of my (2nd edition) article on Nerull that I wrote forever ago:
    http://canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=749
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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    From: Arkansas

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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:59 pm  

    Thanks Ras, that was a very enlightening reply. It confirmed some things I thought as well as brought to light some issues I hadn't really considered before.

    I guess what I meant when I said that Orcus doesn't care about undead is that in his hatred for everything, he feels contempt even for those worshipping him. It would seem he wouldn't be pushing his followers to make more, but then again it could be a momentary whim or perhaps one of his high priests, in a personal power grab, could be trying to raise undead legions for his own purpse and is simply telling the others its Orcus' will...

    In any case thanks for the reply, its given me much to consider and I will check out the links too!
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:13 pm  

    I think Orcus, as prince of the undead, must gain some power (and grow closer to true godhood) whenever someone creates undead in his name. He hates the undead just as he hates the living (and demons, and regular corpses, and long lines at the post office, and rocks and clouds) but I think it's in his interest to have his followers create as many undead as possible (unless they create so many that their secret cults are exposed and the local authorities wipe them out, of course). He hates his living followers too, but he still wants more of them. They bring him power, loathsome as they are.

    The main limit is common sense. Most places won't look kindly at demon cultists digging up corpses and murdering people, so they have to stay somewhat unobtrusive until they've gotten enough power to kill anyone who tries to stop them.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

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    Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:41 am  

    Hello Xilinar!

    I do not remember where I read a very interesting theory about necromancer cultists, but there it is, as much as I can recall the tale:

    Acererak, the demi-lich from the Tomb of Horrors had a purpose which is rooted in his connexion with the Ur-Flan. As the Ur-Flan want to free mankind of the gods’ domination, Acererak thinks that the gods enslave the mortals for their worship to draw power from it, and harvest the souls after death. But, the gods would harvest nothing if the mortals are soulless. Therefore, to free mankind, Acererak has the mad project to make every mortal an undead, so that the Gods would leave the world as it becomes useless for them.

    So a cult dedicated to Acererak would have necromancers very busy to create undead not only with dead people but with living people too.

    Maybe, Rasgon could remember better than me this story...

    [edit]
    This is where the tale comes from :
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=875

    Quote: "A world without life, [Acererak] surmised, is a godless world."
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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    Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:49 am  

    Its interesting you mention that Galli, I was thinking that waaaay down the line I might involve the Tomb of Horrors in some way and it would be an interesting twist to have ol Ace behind things...

    Most of The players I have played thru these dungeons back in the early 80s and have VERY fond memories of them so I would like to let them revisit them level permitting. On the other hand, I am still struggling with the medium of the virtual game table so I dont want to tackle something too complicated (plot or encounter wise) until I get more comfortable with the medium.

    Thanks again, its very helpful just to discuss things to jog my memory and imagination...sort of a DM's Mordenkainen's Lucubration ;)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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    Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:20 am  

    Wee Jas would most assuredly have a representative (cleric or magic-user) sent to the village in order to investigate. The idea of undead being created for chaotic intentions would not be favorable to her. If one of the PCs follows Wee Jas, this would be a perfect way to bring the PCs into the action.
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    Count Telemachus, Archmage of the Unicorn Conferderation
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    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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    Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:32 am  
    Medical Students

    Hi all -
    Lets not forget that Medical Students would often hire thugs to steal corpses so that they could understand the human body. With Olves, Dwur, Orcs, and the hundreds of races out there (or just the dozen or so of the "domesticated" races that might bury their dead) there is a vast potential for even small towns to have their cemeteries raided. This is because a larger city, such as Greyhawk or Dyvers might have their medical students study bodies from a farther region (to limit the distrubances in the local cemetaries).
    I realize you're thinking more along the lines of evil clerics, but wouldn't it be cool for the PC's to be thinking their in the midst of uncovering and ending an evil cult only to discover it is well intentioned medical students?
    Be Well. Be Well Studied.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:43 am  

    Wow...thats brilliant! I can see having the players encounter a few such instances of evil clerics and then stumble upon what seems to be another such tampering. Upon entering the situation, perhaps with spells and swords blazing, they discover its 'merely' a group of chirurgeons looking to prepare for their midterms.

    Its an interesting conundrum in that they are not essenitally evil but they are still disturbing the dead, but only to benefit the living...

    <maniacal cackle> I think I can use this...
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:18 pm  

    I have to say, I am partial to Orcus. Maybe it was the 1st ed monster manual and all those quests for his wand.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
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    Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:29 pm  

    Don't forget Kyuss. If your campaign is occuring near Wormhall or Wormcrawl Fissure near the Rift Canyon in the Bandit Kingdoms, Kyuss should be involved.
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