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    Canonfire :: View topic - Vancian Magic in Greyhawk
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    Vancian Magic in Greyhawk
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:48 pm  
    Vancian Magic in Greyhawk

    Do you think that Vancian magic is essential to the "feel" of Greyhawk?

    If so, why?
    If not, what sort of magic system would you use if you were creating Greyhawk from scratch?

    (I suppose the "if not" answer might work better in Heretic's Nest, but it's not really an alternate setting. I don't know.)

    The system worked in the original Dying Earth books because spells were rare, complex, and powerful forces that the wizard had to struggle to contain in his mind until he released them. There's a big thematic difference between Beldane's Irresistible Shards of Arcane Force, known to only three wizards in the world, and the ubiquitous Magic Missile. I see Greyhawk as more like Nehwon than the Dying Earth, with magic more accessible. For example, the Gray Mouser was a wizard's apprentice before becoming a thief. In a setting like Greyhawk, with magical universities and countless hedge wizards puttering around in rural cottages, I feel a system derived from the rarity of magic can be discarded without harming the setting.

    My first goal would be to make arcane, divine and psionic systems completely different in style. This rules out spell points, since power points have been part of psionics since 1e and I like the way they work. I was occasionally bothered by the fact that wizards and clerics used essentially the same magic with different spell lists.

    Though I am loathe to admit it, the 4e magic system is sort of a half step in the right general direction, if viewed as an extension of the 3.x Spell Mastery feat. A wizard has a number of spells that he knows so well that he can cast them whenever he wants, without needing a spell book. For other spells, he has to study his spell book to temporarily "imprint" the formulas into his mind.
    Permanent and temporary spells can be cast as often as the wizard desires. Maybe extra temporary spells can be imprinted if the wizard consciously chooses to limit the number of times that they can be used.
    The problem, shared by 4e "at will" powers, is the lack of a limiting mechanic such as fatigue. A wizard could cast Magic Missile every round for hours without breaking a sweat. The Recharging Magic system from 3e Unearthed Arcana might work, but it requires a lot of extra dice rolling and time tracking. A system that inflicts nonlethal damage based on spell level on the caster might work, so a wizard could knock himself unconscious if he casts too many spells too quickly. Maybe a threshold based on level, allowing the caster to ignore x damage in a time period, per minute maybe, so a few quick minor spells can be cast with no ill effects, but extended casting or a powerful spell will still be draining.
    Sorcerers would work the same way, but with more permanent spells and no temporary spells. Maybe a lower "fatigue" so they can cast more spells before collapsing.

    Clerics and druids, I would shift more toward invoking divine miracles. In early editions, low level spells were powered by the cleric's faith, mid-level spells were granted by the deity's supernatural servants, and high-level spells were granted directly by the deity.
    I would at least partly incorporate a general spontaneous casting system. The cleric's spells up to a certain level, based on character level, can be chosen from the spell list without preparation. When confronting a white dragon, a high-level cleric doesn't say "Curses! If only I had prayed for Flame Strike this morning." Instead he says "Oh mighty Pelor, grant me the gift of your divine fire so that I may strike down this fell beast!" He makes a level check, modified by Wisdom, or something, and if successful, he has a Flame Strike to cast. Higher level spells would still require preparation, the more powerful divine energy needing to be channeled to specific purposes. Clerics would suffer fatigue like wizards, but probably less, since they're channeling less of their own personal energy.
    Healing could be a problem if clerics can cast unlimited spells. In Hero System, the Healing Power can only affect a character once per day, unless later applications roll a greater amount of healing. Maybe once a character receives a healing spell, he can't be affected by a spell of the same or lower level for 24 hours. This prevents a mortally wounded character from being healed with 15 Cure Light Wounds spells. Potions would probably bypass this rule, maintaining their utility.

    Bards would work like sorcerers. Their spells are the magic tricks they know how to do, and they can freely use them.

    Paladins and rangers, I might completely change. Instead of choosing daily spells from spell lists, they instead chose from a list of powers that they are taught during their training and cannot change. A ranger from the Grandwood Forest would have different magical abilities than a ranger from the Burneal Forest. A paladin of Heironeous from an order in Irongate would have different magical powers than a paladin of Ulaa from an order in the Principality of Ulek. This would help to add campaign-specific flavor to the classes.

    I was thinking about this at work today, but I pretty much came up with a lot of these ideas as I was typing them, so they would obviously need polishing and playtesting.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri May 01, 2009 7:59 am  

    You stated that spell points are ruled out for the mage but then you are looking for a fatigue measure. Use the "spell" points and call them fatigue points.

    Or am I missing something??

    I use spell points for my mages. Once the points are gone, they are required to rest to regain their points. They are not required to memorize low level or commonly used spells, but complex or seldom used spells require preparation.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri May 01, 2009 12:10 pm  

    I think you're trying too hard.

    I, too, have thought about this particular topic and I came to many of the same conclusions you have. This is what I came too: Changing the way magic works, to make it more flexible for the caster, which, I think is what you're after, is that accurate? Would completely alter how the system works. You would have to change what 'hit points' are and how they are expressed in the system. All of the combat mechanics are based off of how many hit points characters receive. If you go tinkering around with how many spells can be cast by spellcasters, you will make spellcasters much more powerful than any other character class.

    As the mechanics stand, a fighter can swing his arm all day and deal damage, while a wizard, regardless of their level, will run out very quickly.
    A mechanic from Hackmaster that I really like that addresses this is Fatigue. It says, and I'm paraphrasing right now, that every round of combat that a character is active (moving, casting, etc.) is one point of fatigue. The maximum number of rounds a character can spend running around in combat is equal to one-half their constitution, after that they start having to make checks against the average of their wisdom and constitution or receive penalties to their strength and dexterity ratings.

    Aside from that, one system of spellcasting I thought of that might work, but never tried, is one where the wizard takes temporary constitution damage for each spell he casts. In a 3E system you can easily base that around a Difficulty Check.

    Personally, I like wizards in 2E better than in 3E. In 3E they really got the shaft, their spells are much more narrow and since everyone has more hitpoints, the individual effectiveness of their combat spells is less. And, of course, I like Hackmaster even more than 2E.

    In the end, my suggestion, is to check out how any of your changes to spellcasters affect the other classes and everything else in the system. A playtester for 3E told me that every change you make in the system, no matter how small, has an exponential effect upon the rules. That is why I like 2E, the rule set is MUCH easier to work with if you like to customize, like I do.

    good luck!
    The Grey Mouser
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri May 01, 2009 5:45 pm  

    No, I don't think Vancian maqgic is inherently a part of Greyhawk- it is inherently a part of the D&D rules system, and that is all.

    I've played Greyhawk a little bit using both Ars Magika 5e and Fantasy HERO rules, and it was still Greyhawk. The magic systems for both of these rules sets are very specifically non-Vancian, and they both worked perfectly well.

    The crunchy bits of the rules, Vancian Magic system or otherwise, simply aren't built into Greyhawk in any defining way.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 01, 2009 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri May 01, 2009 5:49 pm  

    Armitage,

    I believe that a Vancian-esque magic system is necessary. The system needs to restrict the constant use and easy access to magic, especially utilitarian magic. Here are a few examples as to why…

    Using a fictional, point-based spell system (I’ll call it FRED), a player can create any spell he or she has points for up to the campaign’s maximum effect rule. Once created, the spell does not require additional time to relearn it or excessive rest to recover it; he or she just burns Mana. His or her Mana pool recovers fully in 5 minutes or less. In effect, a FRED style Priest of Mayaheine could cast a “Major Wall Repair” spell every chance he or she gets during combat making siege attacks against battlements a waste of time. Watch out invaders if there is more than one because you’ll never get in thru those walls. If the same Priest has a spell that increases arrow accuracy, range, damage, and/or allows for an explosive option, he or she can walk the battlement walls amping up any archer’s firepower as needed. Yes, the FRED player could put limitations on his or her spell to prevent such apparent abuse, but that defeats the point of using the FRED system.

    Using the D&D standard spell system (Vancian), the mages will run out of such spells pretty quickly. This is important in keeping non-spellcasters viable.

    Imagine spellcasting out of combat, for profit even. What if any spellcaster could cast “permanent light” or “wall of stone” whenever he or she wanted. He’d make a mint as a merchant and probably put the chandlers and masons out of business; every stone home would have such light. Easily cast “message” spells could substitute for the telegraph, and Kings would instantly know the conditions of war from his general 100 leagues away and respond quickly. Wizards with “write” spells could open their own Medieval Kinkos for all your copying needs. Do you want your Greyhawk to turn into a world of muggles vs. wizards and witches? Sorry Mr.Potter, I couldn’t help myself.

    Vancian magic is part of the Greyhawk flavor. The world just wouldn’t run the way it does if you do not limit the production of useful magic.

    Cheers
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri May 01, 2009 7:48 pm  

    Magic being too available in a non-Vancian magic sytem is somewhat of a fallacy. First, one must assume that it not too difficult to acquire the services of a true wizard/cleric, which is likely not the case as otherwise it would imply that wizards/clerics are not rare at all. Second, one must assume that people have enough money to pay for even those things that a wizrd/cleric would consider trivial magic, such that it would make a wizard/cleric rich. Thirdly, all this magic apparently has no prohibitive costs involved, ans so it is cast ad infinitum.

    In a non-Vancian system, permanent magic usually requires the expenditure of "experience points" on the part of the character for an item that can get taken from them(as in Fantasy HERO), similar to how it works in D&D 3.X(where do you think they got the idea from?). The process can also(or instead) require ritual magic that is expensive or requires rare components(which themselve are either dangerous or expensive to acquire). Trust me when I say that a non-Vancian magic system is very easy to keep under control. The DM just has to actually make an effort to do so, and under those game systems that do use a non-Vancian magic system a lot of this is taken care of already.

    If you alter the D&D sytem to be non-Vancian then course you will also need to alter other parameters to suit the changes. Otherwise you will of course have a broken system that will be completely open to abuse if the DM allows it.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sun May 03, 2009 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat May 02, 2009 5:34 am  

    IMO. Vancian magic is essential to Greyhawk and any other system of magic, while certainly doable, is a step or more away from what makes Greyhawk, Greyhawk. I say this on two accounts.

    First, Vancian magic is part of what defined D&D from its get go until 4e. Greyhawk, because it was released so early in D&D's history, became almost equally defined by Vancian magic. I recognize that this is an "old man's argument" and that, if you only began playing Greyhawk yesterday with 4e, you might not know what Vancian magic is and might not care even if you did.

    Second, Vancian magic supports the idea of the scholarly wizard researching spells, which are limited, even rare, resources and the more valuable because of that, which is inherent in the conception of notable GH wizards (when they are not out adventuring). Other systems can get close to this feel but none equals or betters Vancian magic, IMO. 4e's "always on" powers are particularly antithetical to this "feel."

    While it is possible to make some game design arguments in favor of Vancian magic, such arguments are not Greyhawk specific.

    While it is also possible to make some contextual arguments within Greyhawk canon that Vancian magic is essential to the setting, such arguments are laborious almost to the point of nitpicking and might be arguably countered by pointing out that such occurrences are ever as much a product of the rules of the time as anything inherently and uniquely Greyhawk.

    So, I'll stick with the first two points. They are not unassailable but if you were playing back in the day and paying particular attention to the setting and not just the game, I think they hold water in the main with only minor leaks.

    So. All you youngsters - GET OFF MY LAWN! Wink Laughing
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    Sat May 02, 2009 12:29 pm  

    Armitage - I recommend trying other gaming systems where they use a Spell Point system mechanic. The two that come to mind are Rifts (or any Palladium system) and Exalted. One of the first things you'll notice is that the relative power-level of the spells are much different than in D&D. As Cebrion said, and I paraphrase, if you can just wait a little while to recharge your mana points to cast, you will quickly put everyone else out of business. To address this, the magic in these systems is much less powerful. However, in Exalted, if you are an Exalt and have access to real magic, and not just thaumaturgy (mortal magic), the world looks VERY different, mostly because everything is powered by magic.

    The archetype for wizards in Greyhawk is based upon the historical Dr. Dee. The academic who laboriously pours over ancient and esoteric tomes looking for the missing ingredient to his next spell. Which, by itself, opens up new reasons for adventurers to adventure and explore dusty old crypt, or stealing books of lore out of libraries.

    The Grey Mouser
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    Sat May 02, 2009 2:13 pm  

    No.

    Because story/fluff of Greyhawk for the most part is rules independent. In regards to magic, Greyhawk says it exists and there are practitioners but it does specify how magic works, it leaves that to the rules you are using.

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    Sat May 02, 2009 7:34 pm  

    I too have struggled with magic systems. I've been thinking about some changes recently, that removes the Vancian stigma of spell memorization, whout making mages and clerics walking magic death. Or walking magic healing. 8)

    I've toyed with the idea of spell points, and thought of a simple system for mages... just make spells cost a number of points equal to their level. So, a 3rd level Lightning Bolt is 3 points. TO get the number of spell points, you just add together the points values for the number of spells a mage would get at that level. So, a 3rd level wizard who gets 2-1st and 1-2nd level spell, would have 4 spell points per day.Thus, they could could cast 4-1st level spells, or 2-2nd level spells, of 1-4th level spell, or any combination that equals 4 spell points, in a "rest to rest period". This means that mages are a little more powerful, as the can cast higer level spells earlier, but at the cost of less casting per day. I chalk this up to the unnatural strain on the body that manipulating arcane forces provides. To regains spell points, characters must sleep for at least 1/2 of the number of hours they've been awake, rounded down. So, if a caster puts in a 16 hour day of wakefulness while adevnturing, they must sleep at least 8 hours to regain their spell points. If they only go 6 hours before bedding down for the night, they only need 3 hours of sleep to recharge their spell points.

    They way I limit this, and also make magic seem more powerful, is by severely limiting the spells available. For each level, I give them a choice of 6-12 readily known spells which all mages know. For instance, my list of commonly known first level spells would be: detect magic, read magic, identify, comprehend languages, shield, armor, magic missle, light, cantrip, wizard mark, sleep, charm person. Anything else... they have to seek out someone to teach them the spell formulae to inscribe in their spellbook. Some might be pretty easy to find without much effort. Others will be harder. Named spells are ESPECIALLY rare (Bigby et al guard their secrets carefully). Also, requiring material components will limit the "spell-casting tank" syndrome. Thus, mages need more time to adventure, to find new spells! Also, as preists below, if they want to try and use their spell points to empower a spell for which they do NOT have the formulae, they can give it a try, but there should be a hefty chance of it failing (possibly spectacularly).

    As for preists, I'm thinking of changing the nature of their magic slightly, without having to change the system too much. Like someone here said, low level spells should be powered by the faith of the cleric, mid-level by the deity's agents, high-level by the deity. I would use spell points the same way here - a 4th level priest with 3-1st and 2-2nd level spells would have 7 spell points. Again, I justify this by saying that mortals can only channel so much of the divine each day before the power wears them out. However, I see priest magic less as actualy spells, and more as divine miracles in answer to prayers. So, each spell isn't really a spell per se, but a prayer known by the priest to invoke whatever effect is required. The prayer is a ritualistic incantation which is required to get the attention of the deity to channel their grace. With low-level stuff, it's stuff the deity wouldn't think twice about... simply invoking the name of the deity to get the effect. Now, to make things interesting, I put in the caveat that if a priest wishes to try a (spell) prayer for which they DON'T know the proper ritual wording, they can try it, but there's a chance of failure, or worse. Thus, priests are constantly having to talk to their superiors in the church to learn the proper prayers by which they can invoke the miracles of their deity. Gives priests a reason to adventure too.

    I haven't had a chance to test these yet, but to me, they put the mystery back into magic, and make it more "magical". It also makes spellcasters a little more spontaneous. I have also toyed with the idea of only allowing bonus spells for INT/WIS to those characters who stick with the old Vancian magic system (the theory being, because they are using a much more rigid system of memorization, it makes it easier for them to remember extra spells, instead of having to channel stuff on the fly).
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    Sat May 02, 2009 8:10 pm  

    GreyMouser wrote:
    Armitage - I recommend trying other gaming systems where they use a Spell Point system mechanic. The two that come to mind are Rifts (or any Palladium system) and Exalted.


    To be honest, I lean more towards Hero System, particularly with the Long Term Endurance rules in effect.

    For a "5th-level" wizard with Speed 3, Endurance 30 and Recovery 5, casting a 3-shot Magic Missile each Phase would burn 27 Endurance in 1 Turn. Another Phase of casting and he'll start taking Stun damage from fatigue if he doesn't rest. He would also lose 8 Long Term Endurance each Turn, which would take 8 hours of rest to recover; a day-and-a-half without resting.

    The rulebook even says "This rule is particularly useful to keep wizards from casting spells too frequently."
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    Sun May 03, 2009 6:53 am  

    Over the past almost three decades there have been people setting games in GH using systems like Rolemaster, T&T, C&S, and systems by guys like Steve Jackson and Robin Crossby. And a glance at this forum's section on other systems shows that there's people interested in a wide variety of non-DnD rule sets.

    Some of those systems have DnD-like spellcasting mechanics, but some of em don't.

    I'm not about to say that Gary Gygax's spellasting mechanics are essential to setting games in GH. There's about 30 years worth of guys who prove they're not.

    This thread strikes me as a thinly veiled edition war. And man am I tired of edition wars.

    nematode
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    Mon May 04, 2009 2:13 am  

    I don't see it as an addition war.  4e does use a semi-Vancian limitations too, though not completely. There are still spells limited to once per day, once per encounter, etc.  Sure, it's more open, but still has its Vancian aspects.  Surely the 4e spell system works for Greyhawk and just furthers the point that Greyhawk is not dependent on Vancian magic for its flavor.



    " Mordenainen would have blasted more of the Iuzian troops at the Battle of Critwall Bridge, but he had cast all four of his memorized fireballs for the day. " or something similar is simply not what defines Greyhawk. The rules mechanics simply don't impact the back story in this way. Well, unless you are reading some Mika Oba fiction, but one way or another we all know how people feel about that. Razz
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    Mon May 04, 2009 7:56 am  

    The only real Greyhawk tie-in to the magic rules selection that I can see is tenuous and open to interpretation. Zagyg created the wand of wonder and/or wand of a wonder, IIRC. These are of greatest benefit to the wild mage from 2nd ed. Tome of Magic, as they allow a wild mage the chance to cast any spell known to them, not merely one memorized. I have used this as part of the justification for having Zagyg be a wild mage IMC. However, if any mage can cast any spell known to them, there is no real motivation for the creation of a wand of wonder. Zagyg was trying to free himself from the limitations of Vancian magic.

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    Mon May 04, 2009 12:39 pm  

    Its not any mage can cast every spell rather its any mage can cast the spells they know of and have access to within their spellbooks.

    I have always maintained the mages and priests for that matter should be much more reclusive about the resources for magic formulae. The blow to spellcasters which suffers a theft or fire within its scriptorium (priests) or personal libraries (mages) should be devastating; especially mages since the established faiths can request from its religious centers that copies of it prayers be sent to replace losses.

    Just because something is in the rulebook doesn't mean the players have access to it. This helps explain why some bookworm mages adventure or why talented acolytes are thrust out into the harsh wildness with little more then a holy symbol and a blessing. The mage and the priestly order want to discover and possibly obtain new spells.

    Which should explain the security around these valuable and in the religion context sacred collections. IMO spells shouldn't become a swap meet approach - trade this for that - think of the prestige to be the only mage or faith in town to cast whatever. The discovery of a scoll or the spellbook of a defeated mage should be played by the spellcaster as more valuable or a sacred event rather then mere treasure. No mage or priest should volunteer or trade their mystical knowledge.

    Of course priests can attempt to occassionally gain access to the scriptorium But the religious insitution makes that decision (used as a subtle means to reward rp behavior or punish its lack) and the religious insitution decides which spell and how many are offered (cruel DMs could roll randomly). Of course the mage suffers again because just because he can cast a new spell doesn't mean he has found a new spell and he would become a laughing stock if he asked to have a peek at another mage spellbooks. Even an aprentice asking his master (teacher) would probably have to agree to a favour before he was offered a spell (DM choice.

    The single common spell given for both mage and priests was read magic as part of their training and then a single random graduation spell as it were. Earn the rest yourself and boy were the PCs excited and grateful for each spell that was discovered; I never made it easy and prefer a low-moderate magic quotient.

    IMC some spellcasters never had access to more then a few spells; each discovery or even potential spellcaster opponent because an intense encounter. The threat of loss or theft become akin to paranoia to preserve their hard won spells.
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    Mon May 04, 2009 6:06 pm  

    The charm of Greyhawk, for me, has always been that is a rough and tumble setting with magic and magic items lost in ancient tombs that need discovering. Magic is the province of the highly specialized, and not something you can get out of the average imperial or royal library (unless there is a plot reason why you can). Monster claw at the edges of society, ripping at the fringes. Evil men and monsters alike vie to destroy the works of man, elf, dwarf, gnome and halfling.

    None of these things require a specific set of rules. I have used 3.5 and 4E both to great effect. Despite a fairly different rules system, the story has maintained in tact and is going on just fine. Do I like Vancian magic? Not as such, but I generally use whatever the system throws my way and just deal with it. Happy

    I could easily make Palladium's system work, or GURPS, or even old World of Darkness (I know all of those fairly well). So no, its so very not necessary.
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    Thu May 14, 2009 5:49 pm  

    Gooday

    I have ran and played on Greyhawk under D&D 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions. I have also ran Greyhawk under Palladium 2nd ed and Rolemaster 2nd ed.

    All of these games used different spell slot/spell point systems.

    However all of these games had wizards, clerics, druids and some kind of Mystic/Psionist.

    Wizards used magic in different ways to cast spells, but they all learn from eachother or a spellbook.

    I prefer for wizards to learn a spell, then gain/use/rest to regain mana, but this doesn't take spellbooks or putting in time to learn spells out of the picture.

    Clerics pray for spells, in a trance like state they commune with their god or one of the gods powerful minions to recieve divine insight into the mysteries, and learns a new spell. This also means if the player wants their character to take a spell or spell-list that is vastly inappropriate for that religion, then they don't get it.

    I don't think Vacian magic (fire and forget as I call it) is essential to Greyhawk.

    I do think classic fantasy elements are, eg; wizards learning from spellbooks, clerics praying for guidance, holy/unholy ground, holy/unholy symbols, dangerous magic in artifacts and spellbooks, the more magic the person weilds the more armour interferes with it.

    One campaign I allowed no arcane failure for 1st-3rd spells in chainmail, 4th-6th spells in studded leather, and 7th+ spells in no armour.

    I agree that spellcasters should be protective of their magic lore, learning spells from a guild or mentor should be seen as a favour, and may require a quest before or after the learning. This builds adventure and character interaction opportunities, and gives possible allies/enemies for arcane casters, which divine casters gain just from worshipping a deity.
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