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    Canonfire :: View topic - Unpublished Greyhack Manuscript???
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Unpublished Greyhack Manuscript???
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Sun May 17, 2009 1:00 pm  
    Unpublished Greyhack Manuscript???

    A few years ago, Kenzer & Co., publishers of Knights of the Dinner Table and the Hackmaster system, were going to publish Greyhack, a version of Greyhawk, for the Hackmaster game. The manuscript was fully preped and ready to publish but Wotc repeatedly refused permission under the license Kenzer had to publish 1E and 2E material.

    Does anyone know anything about copies of the unpublished manuscript for Greyhack for Hackmaster supposedly being available on the internets? Has anyone seen a copy? Is it legitimately the unpublished manuscript? Thoughts on getting a look at a copy? Is it worthwhile? FN1

    Post, PM or email (gvdammerung@yahoo.com) is fine.

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

    FN1 - I understand Greyhack was to be based on the 83 Box with two major divergences: 1) Oerik was destroyed and the leftovers transported to Aldrazar and 2) the history of the Flanaess was altered by roughly a third.
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    GVD
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
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    From: Ithaca, New York

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    Tue May 19, 2009 12:14 pm  

    How do you alter a history by "a third"? Every third name changes? Every year out of three didn't happen? The first 60 thousand years are the same, but the last 30 thousand are different?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue May 19, 2009 8:08 pm  

    I would assume that a variety of things were changed, amounting to roughly one third of the history having been altered. I doubt the alterations were random.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed May 20, 2009 1:17 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    How do you alter a history by "a third"? Every third name changes? Every year out of three didn't happen? The first 60 thousand years are the same, but the last 30 thousand are different?


    As I understand it, and my knowledge is third hand at best, the license for Kenzer to use 1E and 2E did not allow them to simply reprint 1E and 2E materials. Rather, they could either create wholly new material (e.g., Slaughterhouse Indigo, Sir Robilar's City of Brass) or could create derivative products (e.g, Little Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Existential Evil). The derivative products could contain or reprint only two thirds of the original text. The remainder had to be rewritten and wholly distinct from the original.

    As to how it could be judged that the one third new text standard was met, that's easy. There are compare programs that will match up two or more texts, identify which passages are identical or nearly so and which passages are not. It only requires that the manuscripts to be compared be scanned into databases that are them compared by the program.

    Greyhack was to be a derivative work of the 83 Box. Moving Oerik to Aldrazar was one obvious change that would have been worked to the 83 Box text with doubtless other changes flowing from that. To get a sense of this, see the Hackmaster Gawds and Demi-Gawds text (which not only provides some sense of what Greyhack was to be but is itself a derivative work that meets the one third test).

    Hope this helps explain matters.
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    GVD
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    Wed May 20, 2009 1:33 pm  

    From Jason Zavoda (who doesn't have a CF! account):

    Quote:

    Hey Allan,

    I'm not a member of Canonfire so I can't post but if you want to post a comment from me that would be great.

    I worked as a volunteer editor on the Greyhack project. There was a complete, rough, manuscript of this supplement though I have no idea if it has made itself out to the web. My personal opinion was that it was extremely rough and I have no idea if it was ever rewritten or if another draft of the manuscript was ever produced. If anyone has a link to it I could tell you if it was the one I read.

    Jason Zavoda


    Anyone know more?
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed May 20, 2009 1:36 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    [As to how it could be judged that the one third new text standard was met, that's easy. There are compare programs that will match up two or more texts, identify which passages are identical or nearly so and which passages are not. It only requires that the manuscripts to be compared be scanned into databases that are them compared by the program.


    I think it must have been more challenging for them than they anticipated, as from what I've read WotC rejected their manuscript and demanded rewrites time and again, until they gave up.

    I think rather than using an objective computer program, the "one third" rule was subject to WotC's arbitrary personal discretion. If they didn't think it was different enough, they sent it back and told them to rewrite it.

    It looks like their version of S4 provides hints about what Greyhack would have been like.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed May 20, 2009 1:50 pm  

    After some searching, I found this quote:

    Quote:
    From the December 2006 Kenzer & Co. message boards:

    The truth is we danced hoops around WOTC and made a lot of money off of them.

    They thought when we got the license we were going to do a silly little one-shot (unplayable) spoof and be done with it.

    When we cranked out several dozen books it sort of took them by surprise.

    Especially when they saw the scope of the PHB, GMG and the HOBs.

    When it won Game of the Year I'm sure it pissed them off to no end.

    I think dragging their feet later on the approval process was just their way of stemming the tide.

    But it's all good. We found an audience and HackMaster can survive without 'hacked' AD&D material.

    But that's a subject for another time.

    I'm not bitter at WOTC. I just see it as part of the game. We try to do Greyhack -- they block it.

    I'd love for Greyhack to see the light of day.

    NOTE: I should add I'm not sure of Greyhack's fate at this point. All I know is the last round of approval they changed the rules on the process. We changed what they told us to do and then disapproved it AGAIN for new reasons. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with that side of things. I think Mark is pulling his hair out... no wait...
    CF Admin

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    Thu May 21, 2009 7:14 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    It looks like their version of S4 provides hints about what Greyhack would have been like.


    Looks like I'll have to go back and look at that again: I don't recall there being much GHack mention in it when I read through it awhile ago.
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
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    Thu May 21, 2009 9:56 pm  

    Very strange. I could have SWORE i saw a Greyhack at Gencon. I remember looking at the Hackmaster stuff for my amusement. And I definitely remember the Flanaess to another world thing because that's the only thing that rings a bell in my head. Maybe I just read an upcoming product blurb. Huh.
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