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    Canonfire :: View topic - Dark Sun is the 2010 Campaign
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Dark Sun is the 2010 Campaign
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2006
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    Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:02 pm  
    Dark Sun is the 2010 Campaign

    It has been announced at GenCon and on the WotC site that Dark Sun will be the next campaign world.

    So all you worry-warts, Greyhawk is safe for another year.

    And the Next Campaign Setting is ...
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814

    Spotlight Interview with James Wyatt:
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/2009August

    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:06 pm  
    Re: Dark Sun is the 2010 Campaign

    Saracenus wrote:
    So all you worry-warts, Greyhawk is safe for another year.


    Ahahahahaha!!! Laughing Thanks Sar! I needed that.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:15 pm  

    HALLELUJAH!!! Thanks be to Holy Pelor! Whooo-hooo! Happy

    All hail mighty Saracenus, Bringer of Joyous Good News! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:14 pm  

    That...is a relief. I was afraid with the release of the new Village of Hommlet that it would be Greyhawk.

    Of course, I like Dark Sun very much - but not enough to switch to 4e.
    Forum Moderator

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    Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:52 pm  

    Greyhawk was never a serious candidate this year. What's surprising is that with all the lauding on Dragonlance and Weis at Gencon my friends told me about with their 25th anniversary that they did the switcheroo and picked DS. I guess the psionic material in the next PHB was pretty much the clincher all along. Good for them.
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:50 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Greyhawk was never a serious candidate this year.


    That's good to know and I hope that Greyhawk never is a "serious candidate." Evil Grin

    With all the gaming systems out there, I don't think that Greyhawk is getting all that many "new" players -- though I could be wrong about that. But I just get the "feeling" that Greyhawk is played mostly by us "old timers." Sad

    Even here, in our most recent posts, we've been "hearing" how many Canoneers are actually playing in other gaming systems/worlds. That being the case, why mess with Greyhawk? Those of us actually playing in Greyhawk, or wanting to play in Greyhawk, like it just the way it is. Happy

    That's why I get the "feeling" that Hasbro/WotC is simply "screwing" with "us." Their changes are not attracting new players to the World of Greyhawk. So, let them spend their time on other gaming worlds. Cool

    Of course, there are those of you out there who have far more information in this regard then I do, so I gladly bow to your wisdom in this matter aforehand -- if I should be wrong here. Cool

    Just my two pennies. Happy
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:20 am  

    I'm beginning to suspect that it would not be in WotC's best interests to rerelease Greyhawk now. There are plenty of us grognards out there, and while we're few we're exceedingly vocal. Further, even though WotC has shown a willingness to ignore "canon" in other settings in the past, a certain degree of backwards compatibility is still necessary and I doubt any of their designers have the expertise to handle Greyhawk.

    Besides that, whole most of us on Canonfire might consider Greyhawk to be a very rich and unique world, in literary terms it's not that original, nor does it vary significantly from the "generic" fantasy world. On top of that contemporary fantasy literature appears to be drawing away from what was once the standard of fantasy - you just don't find that many books anymore about knights fighting dragons, for example. Thus, Greyhawk presents (for WotC, at least) a somewhat bland palate.

    And as far as I'm concerned, that's all a good thing. But I do hope they do something interesting with Dark Sun - I rather like that setting, and may mine whatever they come up with for ideas.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:33 pm  

    Of course, WOTC has been busy plundering the best of Greyahwk for 'generic' adventures for a couple years now...
    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:32 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I doubt any of their designers have the expertise to handle Greyhawk . . . most of us on Canonfire might consider Greyhawk to be a very rich and unique world, in literary terms it's not that original . . . contemporary fantasy literature appears to be drawing away from what was once the standard of fantasy . . . Greyhawk presents (for WotC, at least) a somewhat bland palate.

    And as far as I'm concerned, that's all a good thing.


    I agree. As I've noted here on Canonfire! before, "official" Greyhawk has been abandoned for years -- I give you Forgotten Realms. Wink

    How many Greyhawk based novels can you count? By comparison, you cannot count all the Forgotten Realms novels. In addition -- having read many of them -- novels that are supposedly based upon similar themes, contradict themselves repeatedly. I simply cannot believe that anything in Faerun is "official" canon. Confused

    I don't want to see that happen -- officially -- to Greyhawk. Sad
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:08 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    How many Greyhawk based novels can you count? By comparison, you cannot count all the Forgotten Realms novels.


    Even more important: how many existing Greyhawk novels do you want to count? I think I've read all of the Greyhawk novels over the years, and the only two that are decent (IMO) are Nightwatch by Robin Wayne Bailey, and Quag Keep by Andre Norton. (I admit to bias on QK - I read that right about the time I first started playing). EGG's novels are good to mine for source material, but I wouldn't hold them up as literary gems. The newer ones by Kidd and Emerson didn't work for me either.

    I wonder if Erik Mona's "Rose Estes Hate Page" is still around anywhere?

    -Phil
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    Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:25 pm  

    http://www.oerthjournal.com/mikaobah8.html

    blam
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:07 pm  

    Ugh, yes.

    Excuse me, I'm going to go scrub my brain with Drano now.

    -Phil

    P.S. Standing offer: send me $1 and I'll burn a Rose Estes book in your name. Help save the world! Happy
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:07 am  

    I have absolutely NO intention of arguing with that statement! Laughing

    Both Maldin and Mortellan speak of their works as 'labours of love,' and that's what's missing in the Greyhawk novels. They were written by people who were simply paid to write them, not by people who wanted to write them. Big difference. Wink

    Neither WotC nor Hasbro spent any time "looking" for people who wanted to develope Greyhawk. They just paid some "already exisiting" writers -- as it were -- to quickly throw together a couple of books -- Quick Cash (profits)! And Greyhawk suffered for it. Razz

    I hope they keep their Hack and Slash hands off of our Greyhawk. Cool

    And . . . ta dah! Mortellan to the rescue! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:22 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    http://www.oerthjournal.com/mikaobah8.html

    blam


    First time I've ever seen or read this page (yeah, shame on me). Shocked

    I'm going to go throw-up now. Embarassed
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:33 am  

    nanowrimo is coming up in November. Perhaps we should all write GH novels? ;)

    http://www.nanowrimo.org/
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:56 am  

    Sounds GREAT to me! Happy

    But can we do that without Hasbro's imprimatur? Confused

    Somehow, I think that Hasbro/WotC is going to have all the "say so" in any venture involving Greyhawk novels. Evil

    So I don't think its going to happen. Cry

    Although others here would know about that sort of thing much better than I do. Cool
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:52 am  

    I am happy to have been wrong about Greyhawk in 2009. I hope to continue my erroneous ways until at least 5e!!!

    Of note - I looked over the Dark Sun Campaign Guide, and the Eberron Campaign Guide for that matter. I would describe both as "once over, lightly." IMO, these were not indepth campaign treatments, like those that appeared in earlier editions for a debuting setting. These are more campaign highlight books, IMO.

    May Greyhawk be ever spared such attentions!!! (And we won't talk about the 4e FR treatment).
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:32 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Of note - I looked over the Dark Sun Campaign Guide, and the Eberron Campaign Guide for that matter . . . these were not indepth campaign treatments . . . campaign highlight books, IMO.


    Thanks for that "heads-up" o' Mighty Reviewer of WotC (sucky) material. We appreciate that you're there, looking out for us. And you do a great job of it too! Happy
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:40 am  

    Comparing the 3rd edition Eberron Campaign Setting to the 4th edition Eberron Campaign Guide, the fourth edition version seemed much better, actually, and to have more campaign material in it. A big part of that was that most of the "crunch" - the new races, classes, spells, and other rules-elements - is in the Player's Guide this edition rather than in the campaign book, leaving much more room for non-edition specific rules-free stuff.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:06 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Of note - I looked over the Dark Sun Campaign Guide, and the Eberron Campaign Guide for that matter. I would describe both as "once over, lightly." IMO, these were not indepth campaign treatments, like those that appeared in earlier editions for a debuting setting. These are more campaign highlight books, IMO.



    GVD, do you mean the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:47 pm  

    JHSII wrote:
    You know, this is the first year when I shouldn't have even bothered to go to GenCon. Usually there's at least something that makes it worthwhile - but this year was a total washout. It's kind of like where they've been taking D&D.


    That's something I've been missing this year - where are all the reports about GenCon? Any news, anyone?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:25 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    That's something I've been missing this year - where are all the reports about GenCon? Any news, anyone?


    And cue "You kids get off my lawn" moment.

    The reason you are not seeing updates coming fast and furious is that there are a crap load of RPG blogs. This means that lots of folks that would post up at various message boards are now feeding their own content.

    Add in the critical mass of twitter reports and there just isn't that much that isn't being instantly transmitted.

    For example, my post about Dark Sun being the new setting here was after I heard it on my twitter feed. I got all the ENies winners as they were announced that night by twitter.

    As for posting D&D related new here? It is becoming less and less attractive with all the reflexive WotC bashing. Really what's the point if the thread is going just become the spring board for WotC = Evil/Incompetent screeds. Its become tiring and frankly boring.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:41 pm  

    Saracenus wrote:
    bubbagump wrote:
    That's something I've been missing this year - where are all the reports about GenCon? Any news, anyone?


    And cue "You kids get off my lawn" moment.

    The reason you are not seeing updates coming fast and furious is that there are a crap load of RPG blogs. This means that lots of folks that would post up at various message boards are now feeding their own content.

    Add in the critical mass of twitter reports and there just isn't that much that isn't being instantly transmitted.

    For example, my post about Dark Sun being the new setting here was after I heard it on my twitter feed. I got all the ENies winners as they were announced that night by twitter.

    As for posting D&D related new here? It is becoming less and less attractive with all the reflexive WotC bashing. Really what's the point if the thread is going just become the spring board for WotC = Evil/Incompetent screeds. Its become tiring and frankly boring.


    Hmmm. Somewhat insulting in tone, but I guess I can accept that explanation...


    Last edited by bubbagump on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:15 am  

    You know, I kind of think that Dark Sun is a good choice for 4E. They seem like peanut butter and chocolate (if you like those particular brands), or nuts and bolts; they seem made for each other. Maybe that's just me. I'm just glad that it isn't Greyhawk so they won't screw up a great setting.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:57 am  

    Saracenus wrote:
    As for posting D&D related new here? It is becoming less and less attractive with all the reflexive WotC bashing. Really what's the point if the thread is going just become the spring board for WotC = Evil/Incompetent screeds. Its become tiring and frankly boring.


    Indeed. It is something that has been bugging me for a while. Initially I was somewhat critical of the move to the very different 4e system, but I have mellowed with age and have come to look at it from a better perspective at this point(i.e. indifference). Happy Quite frankly I would NOT be unhappy if WotC would have chosen Greyhawk as their 2009 campaign setting. A new spin on old material is basically what every DM does anyways, so I'd expect the same from WotC. Take from it what you will, as usual, and move on.

    If the fans are the ones who keep saying they are happy Greyhawk is staying buried, well then guess what? It is likely to be buried...

    ...forever.

    It's a little thing called "The Self-fulfilling Prophecy". And why wouldn't it be buried? Cuz Greyhawk iz teh best? There is more than enough interest in other worlds for Greyhawk to be left alone and eventually be buried, especially if the fan base works hard enough to keep it on that track. WotC sucks if they don't release Greyhawk, and they suck if they do. What a winning set of parameters that have been set for them, eh? No wonder WotC could care less about doing much of anything with that ol' "Damned if you do. Damned if you don't." thing called Greyhawk.

    Nobody at WotC will ever do Greyhawk "the right way" so far as *everyone* is concerned, so either you want Greyhawk of some kind, in some form, or you don't want it at all- for this edition or possibly any edition. Wise up folks. The more time that passes, the more nails that are going into the coffin. Greyhawk isn't buried yet, put there seems a lot of people lining up to dig their proverbial shovelful of oerth from the ground.

    This is of course called "Kicking your own arse." folks. Wink

    When such bashing is so prevalent then this is not exactly the first place you want to come and post news. Thanks for doing it anyways Saracenus, knowing what some of the responses might be.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:11 am  

    Over all I'd have to say I'm happy with WotC... Sure they are fun to complain about, but they have done a good job at keeping the game alive and thriving in the face of MMORPGs, CCGs, and console game systems that have sucked off a huge percentage of the type of people that are traditionally interested in fantasy game experiences. Some of the tools on thier website, like the 4e character builder, are frankly amazing. Most of the artwork they are commissioning, purchasing and/or publishing is outstanding. Given the amount of money WotC is making from it's other product lines (like Magic the Gathering) I'm glad they just haven't stopped producing D&D to focus on more money making endeavors

    I don't agree with their marketing structure of producing splat books until the current edition collapses under the weight of all the rules. I'd much rather see them produce a solid core of rules and then turn their focus to turning out really well produced campaign worlds and adventures... but a business has to make money and perhaps that wasn't economical enough to do. Still, other than some editing/play testing issued that I think arise from how quickly they produce the books, they are pretty well written, illustrated, and put together... much better than the 2e splat books that seemed to be 70% reprinted content, 15% tables and forms, 10% "how to roleplay your character since we don't imagine your have an imagination," and 5% original content.

    I also have mixed feelings about the current writer's agreement. On the plus side, just about anyone can write an adventure using WotC's simplified format. Submitting it and getting it purchased by WotC is also vastly simplified. Unfortunately it produces weaker, 'templated' adventures that are lacking in much flavor.

    I also would love to see Greyhawk revisited by WotC... I think the Living Greyhawk campaign was wonderful. True LG wasn't perfect and some of the material it produced was silly or just poorly done. But I haven't seen anything since 1st edition and the original campaign box set getting so many gamers interested in the setting. Not only interested but personally involved since the campaign was run by fans (triads, regional officers, gamedays, authors, etc)

    The worry I have with WotC revisiting Greyhawk would be how they did it with the Forgotten Realms. They needed to shoehorn some "Core" materials and new 4e mechanics and concepts into the campaign setting and chose a method that was basically "Burn it all to the ground and rebuild it how we want it." Now Greyhawk toyed once with something similar but MUCH less extensive with very mixed quality in the "Fate of Istus" to explain the mechanical shift from 1e to 2e but it was nowhere NEAR the Forgotten Realm's Spell Plague. Could you imagine half of the Flanesse being completely destroyed by an impact with a rogue planet populated by Genesi, warforged, dragonborn, etc to explain how they suddenly populate the world... magic is broken and reborn to explain the mechanics shift. Rary and most of the Circle of eight are destroyed or missing as are many other major NPCs. The changes made to the Forgotten Realms to introduce 4e into it were EXTREME. Certainly not something to make a devoted fan of the setting jump up and down in delight.

    I also worry that WotC has lost (through lay-offs, job transfers, and other attrition) most of their old core of Greyhawk Loremasters. I would love WotC to put more support into Greyhawk, but not if they can't or won't incorporate new things into existing canon a lot smoother than they did with the Forgotten Realms.
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:43 am  

    Well now, wait a moment.

    Being pleased that Greyhawk has not been 4ed is not the same as saying "Let Greyhawk be dead forever." This is particularly true if the alternative is any kind of Greyhawk, just so long as they spell "Greyhawk" correctly. No reason to be in a hurry.

    It is well to recall, perhaps, that Greyhawk has been dead for years at a stretch and has come back time and again. And it was Greyhawk fans who prompted Greyhawk's resurrection, not the IP holder acting on their own initiative in the first instance. No reason to panic.

    Looking at FR, Eberron and DS, I'll stand by my happy that GH is not 4ed.

    FR got timeline advanced TO THE EXTREME!!! Technically, the backstory remains intact but for all intents and purposes it is a new, post-magical- holocaust setting. Greyhawk Wars times 10 with a cosmological twist to boot. I'm happy GH didn't get "revived" in such as fashion.

    Eberron got 4ed in a retcon-ish kind of way. Here's Eberron. Now, here's Eberron only different! Nice trick to at one and the same time make a revised setting boring because it is same ol, same ol AND make it annoying because it is also different. This takes skill - a skill I am happy has not been applied to Ye Olde Hawke.

    Now, its DS - back to the arid future! A bunch of stuff has been declared "did not happen" as the timeline resets wiping out whatever came after the reset date. Its like watching a rerun on television! Thanks but no thanks, Greyhawk is the rich setting it is because of its tortured history. I own the 83 Box; great setting but I don't want another copy with a 4e price tag attached just to have a 4e price tag attached.

    Besides, let's be fatalistic here, Wotc will revive the GH IP just to keep the IP. So, if anyone is worried that GH will be declared no more eternally, I'm here to tell you - not - going - to - happen.

    The real question - as it always has been - is HOW should GH be revived.

    Once upon a time TSR actually solicited gamer input into its settings at Gencon seminars (Milwaukee, Mecca Era). I know because I was there and took part in the process. More recent example, Paizo and its customer-centric game design of the RPG by the same name.

    Wotc solicits no comment, no input, other than "Will you buy whatever we decide to sell you." Sorry if that plain stament of fact sounds like Wotc "bashing." Facts don't lie.

    Given the "no input" policy of Wotc and its record of 4e restarts, I see no reason to make happy talk. Greyhawk has not been 4ed and I'm pleased as punch. Happy Maybe next edition? Cool

    GVD - "4e delende ets!" Wink
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:41 pm  

    Greyhawk will not be considered for 2011. Let me say that again, it will not be a setting in 2011.

    From all I have read on WotCs site and various blogs/twitter feeds by WotC Design & Developer folk as far as they are concerned they have done 2 base fantasy worlds (FR & Eberron) and they are going to stretch into a non-traditional setting with Dark Sun in 2010. So, the next setting will be completely new and really take D&D somewhere it hasn't gone for a campaign.

    With this in mind the soonest we might come back to a "traditional fantasy world" is 2012. That means Greyhawk is competing against Dragonlance and Mystra for a "potential" slot over 2 years from now (and there is no indication that trad. fantasy is on the menu then).

    While I know this might warm the cockles of some on this site that Greyhawk has dim prospects as a campaign setting for 4e but it is downright depressing to me.

    By not being out there, we are a dying breed. It means that there will not be eDragon and eDungeon articles supporting our setting because in order to garner support there, there needs to be a campaign setting in the pipe or already out.

    Example: Divine Power the return of Domains. Now that supplement is chock full of the baseline generic world Domains. However, both FR and Eberron will get world specific versions this month in eDragon and eDungeon.

    This means we don't get some of our own writing stuff and potentially being thrown a freelance gig if by a miracle they do Greyhawk.

    It also means that we don't get support in character builder. There are no Greyhawk specific backgrounds, deity feats, or other Greyhawk goodness.

    While some of you might think that not having those things is just dandy, it means that its just that much harder to get new folks to play in our sandbox because they use those tools and are going want to have them supporting their game of choice.

    So while some of you are high-fiving each other and barely containing your glee that Greyhawk was "spared" I am feeling that we really don't deserve an updated Greyhawk and WotC has actually spared the rest of the gaming 'verse from having to deal with us.

    BTW, if what I am saying gets your panties in a twist. Good. My contempt is getting through to you.
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:04 pm  

    They will do Dominaria or Alara next (gods I hope I'm kidding).
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:05 pm  

    Saracenus wrote:
    Greyhawk will not be considered for 2011. Let me say that again, it will not be a setting in 2011.

    From all I have read on WotCs site and various blogs/twitter feeds by WotC Design & Developer folk as far as they are concerned they have done 2 base fantasy worlds (FR & Eberron) and they are going to stretch into a non-traditional setting with Dark Sun in 2010. So, the next setting will be completely new and really take D&D somewhere it hasn't gone for a campaign.


    You can't be much more blatant that this.

    "Space...the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Dunfalcon. Its five year mission- to seek out new avenues of revenue, to stretch the imagination, to keep its crew of gods and quasi-deities from killing each other; to boldly go where no gamer has gone before...."

    aw AWWWW Aw aw aw aw aw... Wink

    Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if WotC, in the interest of expanding their base, took the 4e rules into the sci-fi realm(which I think they would suit very well) and brought back Star Frontiers or Gamma World. People have their favorite among the two, but I'd vote for Star Frontiers because of dralasites and yazirians(and some other stuff).

    Not being aware of the slow degradation of Greyhawk content in 4e books, yes, perhaps we Greyhawk fans have finally slit our own throats. As Hasbro is loathe to EVER sell off IP(they really do want to control EVERYTHING related to traditional gaming), we might not see Greyhawk until the copyright expires, and by then, who will even care? And yes, that is somewhat depressing. Perhaps Greyhawk is just being put fully on the back burner for a while though. You starve something just long enough but not kill it, and then you feed it, it will generally be very grateful(the "it" being Greyhawk fans, the "gratefull" bit corresponding to us buying anything Greyhawk when it comes out again). It's wait and see time I guess.

    And so it is left up to the fans to keep interest in Greyhawk alive a while longer.
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:03 pm  

    TAKING A BREAK
    Well, reviewing my last post I see my all black-clad assassin personality is wanting to come out to play. That means I am not finding the fun or joy of gaming here and its time for me to take my leave.

    Ceb,

    Cebrion wrote:
    As Hasbro is loathe to EVER sell off IP(they really do want to control EVERYTHING related to traditional gaming), we might not see Greyhawk until the copyright expires, and by then, who will even care?


    Greyhawk isn't covered under copyright, its a Trademark (TM). I believe Russ Taylor told me that all they have to do is publish something every 6 years with Greyhawk content and they have refreshed it. Trademarks do not have an expiration date so long as you keep them up. I believe that Expedition To The Ruins of Castle Greyhawk was the last one.

    Of course I am not a lawyer or expert on trademarks so take this with huge grains of salt.

    So in short, you will have a lonely life waiting for the Greyhawk IP to slip away from Hasbro.
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:20 pm  

    Hmmm,

    Greyhawk was the main world of 1st edition... then almost nothing for second edition and then the main campaign again in 3rd edition... not enough data points but perhaps it will establish a pattern of being revisited every odd number edition... or perhaps every prime number edition.

    I could definitely see WotC going SciFi for 4th edition. I don't think they would reach back as far as Star Frontiers or Gamma World since, other than a few of us, there isn't a fan base and they would have to generate one from scratch. I could see them doing a 4e Star Wars though.

    Still, I think it would be interesting to see them revive and update Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Boot Hill, and the rest of those golden oldies.
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    Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:16 pm  

    Saracenus wrote:
    While some of you might think that not having those things is just dandy, it means that its just that much harder to get new folks to play in our sandbox because they use those tools and are going want to have them supporting their game of choice. . . .

    BTW, if what I am saying gets your panties in a twist. Good. My contempt is getting through to you.


    Okay. The "no new product = no new gamers" argument I get and support - to a point.

    But I'm not getting the contempt. I'm thick or you are more well mannered than you are willing to give yourself credit for being. Smile

    In all events, I certainly hope you continue to post at Canonfire as your contributions are most appreciated. Even if I may not agree with you about this or that. Smile

    Cebrion wrote:
    And so it is left up to the fans to keep interest in Greyhawk alive a while longer.


    This is the crux of the matter. To me this is largely how Greyhawk is supported - rules neutral creations by people who know whereof they speak or care to try, have a genuine interest born of genuine interest, and dare to imagine.

    I'm middle aged. I didn't get here overnight and I'm not too happy having arrived. But having made the trip in more or less one piece, I know that my future is now actuarially less than my past. That gives me a _personal_ perspective on any number of things, among which is my chosen hobby and favorite setting within that hobby.

    I've seen rule set after rule set for any number of games and not one decent rule set has ever been better than the non-rules material to which it was applied. Rules either don't matter or get in the way. The best rules don't matter in the sense that they let you get on with the business of gaming with the non-rules material.

    When rules demand non-rule materials change, I'm skeptical at best. I get the business side of things but I'm not in the business and don't buy the notion that business needs justify either the means or the end, particularly in a business premised on the imagination. If all that can be sold are new rules and non-rules material altered to fit the new rules, I call that a failure of the imagination.

    This places my stick firmly in the mud, I suppose, and definitely lets me out as Wotc's chosen audience. You can't sell me anything just by labelling it "official" or calling a different thing by a familiar name. I've seen too many rules sets come and go to be impressed by another, which will ultimately go as it came. Only the non-rules material, the ideas, will survive, if that.

    Greyhawk for Greyhawk names sake is no Greyhawk. 4e D&D is demonstrably D&D in name only. 4e FR is practically FR in name only. 4e Eberron is better but only by fits and starts. 4e DS is DS restarted to accomodate 4e. In none of these setting situations have the changes been made other than to accomodate a change of rules set. The imagination of Wotc has failed as the business has become about selling rules sets and associated changes, not selling worlds of the imagination.

    Wotc is the whore of Babylon. The moneychanger in the temple. Make that the "official" whore of "Dungeons & Dragons TM." The "official" moneychanger of the temple of "Dungeons & Dragons TM." Not phrases likely to endear me to Wotc but then I'm middle aged, headed for old too soon and am not really pleased to pull punches when being more "politically correct" will get me nothing but a Greyhawk that is Greyhawk more in name than anything else as in 4e FR, Eberron and DS. I'm not that desperate or innocent.

    I might change my tune - might - if I heard one word spoken about how a 4e GH would do other than adapt GH to meet the needs of a new ruleset. Does a 4e Greyhawk have a soul? Does it have a single new and imaginative story to tell? Or is the story all about the rules? All I hear is 4e 4ever! That says nothing and insults the intelligence of anyone long grown familiar with rules coming and going.

    Tell me how a 4e Greyhawk is good for Greyhawk's story. I play for story, not for rules. What cool things would a 4e Greyhawk bring to the Greyhawk setting? All I hear is crickets. Nothing.

    Contempt? The very notion of 4e Greyhawk is so berift of story ideas, let alone setting rationale, that contempt is not possible for there is nothing to be contemptuous of. The idea is hollow. Intellectually and imaginitively bankrupt.

    4e is the "triumph" of form over substance when it comes to settings, of blind "offical D&D" idoltry. No? Again, tell me how 4e Greyhawk is good for Greyhawk's story, its setting?

    I do not define myself or my game in terms of others. I don't need hordes of new Greyhawkers, particularly if the "Greyhawk" they are familiar with bears little resemblance to the Greyhawk I know (an advantage of getting old). Popularity is highly overrated if it means you sell out who and what you are (another advantage of my oncoming dotage).

    Bah! Ignore me. I'm an "official Grognard TM." But let me end on two positive notes, having waxed grandeloquently vile and senile:

    1st - Canonfire produces better material - more imaginative and higher quality - that much of what Wotc produces setting-wise; and

    2nd - Wotc can redeem itself as Paizo has distinguished itself - open the design process to fan critique and input. If not, for what good reason why not?

    YMMV.

    Now I need to go gum my mush. Laughing Hey! What are those kids doing on my lawn! Laughing

    Evil Grin
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    Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:37 am  

    Trademark is certainly a little bit different of a story so far as doing something with Greyhawk at a later date in concerned. Just a mention hear and there, every so often, and Greyhawk could just lurk and linger in perpetuity.

    I think Greyhawk 4e is, to a certain degree, a bit of a misnomer to be honest. Look and the Forgotten Realms Players Guide(the thin hardcover- I think I've got the right book title). It is nearly all fluff, with little crunch. It is a little bit scrawny for a hardcover book, but it does the job of passing on information to somebody wanting to know a little bit of what the Forgotten Realms is about. Due to the time in which it was published, it of course has the 4e tag on it. You can have a "4e" book for Greyhawk too that need not be crammed full of rules, or any rules. It is very possible to develop a campaign world without attaching a slew of rules to everything, but I do think it would be realistic to assume that some rules won't be tacked onto some things, particularly things like deity specific cleric skills/powers.

    Going back to the Greyhawk Folio/83' boxed set, it really is rules light too. Stats for deities, as if those are going to be used all that often, plus some *optional* abilities for clerics. Yep, the usual suspects of course! Bloody clerics/deities! Happy Then we have classes/levels for the various rulers, but that information is so minimal that it can be translated to any game system even, let alone any edition of AD&D/D&D. That's it. The LGG follows a similar format, and would have included more stuff if the authors had their way. Dungeon and Dragon magazines both had a good dose of 3e/3.5 rule content for Greyhawk, but along with it came a load of background too. Sure, some may have liked little of it or a lot of it, or somewhere in between, but it was there to be used or not used as you will. Regardless of how much anyone liked or dislike that content, I am willing to bet that most people were happy that it was in the magazines in the first place.

    It is simple enough to take a kernel of goodness from here and there in any new material, because at this point, for DMs with established Greyhawk campaigns that is all you can do. These folks' Greyhawk campaigns went off on their own tangents long ago, so anything new will have to be reviewed and mined, or not. If somebody doesn't want to make that effort, that's their choice. I don't like everything Greyhawk that has ever come out, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to see more Greyhawk. I'd rather have the opportunity to make use of any new Greyhawk bits that I may like rather than not have the opportunity at all.
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    Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:50 am  

    I think that what WotC (or any other Gaming company) should do (or have done) is produce a good set of core rules and then leave them alone. Perhaps once a year or every other year publish an update to optionally errata things that play has found were a bit problematic and to introduce some optional variant rules, but avoid splatbooks. 3rd edition collapsed under the shear mass of supplemental rules and I fully expect 4th edition to do the same. Actually, I kind of think that its actually planned to as part of WotC's business plan (make lot of gamers rebuy all the books every 4-6 years.

    After establishing their rule set they should turn to publishing one or more campaign worlds. The campaign worlds should be published without ANY rule mechanics. It should describe the lands, NPCs, gods, weather, politics, etc but without any of the 'mechanics' of a rule system. Except for one book that should be how X rule system applies to Y campaign world... a list of monsters, gods, NPC, etc and what their suggested stats would be under a particular ruleset. This way if the rule set changes they don't have to 'remake' the world to explain the change of rules.

    Next they should focus on publishing adventures. The adventures should be specific to a rule set (it would be to difficult to run them without stats and mechics) and possibly, but not necessarily specific to a campaign world or giving recommendations for its placement in various different campaign worlds.

    I think Greyhawk, and any other campaign world, would best be served as being kept, at it's core, mechanics free and then allow 'Player's Guides' or 'Campaign Guides' that explain how a certain edition or rule set would work with the unmechanical world description.

    For example:

    In the Greyhawk world setting it would be explained that Llynwerd is king of Nyrond from year X to year Y. It would describe his personality, his habits, his style of ruling, notable traits, etc... and perhaps that he is a warrior. But it wouldn't define his class, level, etc.

    The 1st edition campaign guide would note that Llynwerd, king of Nyrond, is suspected of being a 12th level fighter and give some suggested stats/magic items/etc in the 1st edition rule set.

    The 3nd edition campaign guide would note that Lynwerd, king of Nyrond, is suspected of being a Marshal 3/Fighter 3/ Knight Protector 12 and give some suggested stats/magic items/etc in the 3rd edition rule set.

    The 4th edition campaign guide would note that Lynwerd, king of Nyrond, is suspected of being a 17th level Warlord/Knight Commander and give some suggested stats/magic items/etc in the 4th edition rule set.




    This way everyone can choose their favorite rules, their favorite world, and get the book that applies those rules to that world... and then its just buying adventures that would fit that world and set of rules. It won't happen because it doesn't maximize the money the gaming industry can get from us, but it would be a better service to their customers... I wish gaming companies were run like some other (rare) companies were that yes, made a profit, but less than they could have because they were more interested in developing a loyal and satisfied customer base.
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    Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:20 pm  

    Hooboy this thread took off.

    Going with the Saracenus model of 2010 Darksun, 2011 (new-world), 2012 Medieval Fantasy, there is one thing that will happen for certain. That is 2 years of potential GH IP conversions to 4e. It has happened already to pace in books like Open Grave the core books (Deities) and soon in their GH-derived mega-adventures (Giants and Tomb of Horrors), and there is the 4e Hommlet special and the Demonomicon next year and who knows what else I've missed not having a DI account. In two more years the stealthing of GH will continue like this even with it being the year of Darksun. So by 2012 (unless the Mayans are right) we could have quite a bit of 4e GH already in place before the first setting book is even discussed. Despite my personal wishy-washyness to liking 4e this cobbling of core material is after all how 1e GH got started.

    My biggest concern is that Wizards isn't keen enough to do it this way and will just be content with plundering GH for ideas to pad their splatbooks. And also I'm concerned they won't be open to fan input like has been discussed above. WotC is very insulated to submissions and critique anymore. The chance we get another fan friendly team like Holian, SKR, Weining and Mona to lead on GH are near nil unless 4e is embraced.
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    Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:46 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    So by 2012 (unless the Mayans are right)


    Repent! Repent! The end of Greyhawk is coming!

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    Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:51 pm  

    Varthalon wrote:
    It won't happen because it doesn't maximize the money the gaming industry can get from us, but it would be a better service to their customers... I wish gaming companies were run like some other (rare) companies were that yes, made a profit, but less than they could have because they were more interested in developing a loyal and satisfied customer base.


    Welcome to the wonderful world of publicly traded companies. It is not about making the customers happy - it is about making the stock holders(some or whom ARE the customers) happy by making their stock worth more(i.e. making profit and increasing the value of the company). It gets better when some of the stock holders are investment groups whose ONLY interest is profit. It's a vicious reality, and one that must be accepted and worked within. The people who work on stuff truly love their work, and do want to do a good job of things, but they don't always get to do exactly what they want to themselves(not that you'll ever hear much of anything about that due to NDAs).

    And so, with that in mind, I'd rather there be something Greyhawk rather than nothing Greyhawk.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:42 am  

    I don't think anyone here is asking for Greyhawk to be buried once and for all (and yes, I'm one of the people who is happy GH isn't the next 4E setting). I just feel that I want to see good Greyhawk product, not some butchered abomination like 4E Forgotten Realms. Now, with that said, I suggest we take this particular discussion (which is a valid one) to another thread, as this one is supposed to be about the 4E Dark Sun announcement, not our feelings about the future of Greyhawk.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:29 am  

    Who's to say that the same thing would be done with Greyhawk as was done with the Forgotten Realms? I would be very surprised if the response to what was done with the Forgotten Realms didn't reach somebody's ears at WotC. It's not like D&D fans are quiet and never speak out about their opinions or anything. Wink I'm just not as skeptical as others are.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:25 am  

    I am kind of curious about how they are going to do Dark Sun. I never had a group play on Athas but I had all the materials and it's an interesting campaign world... and brutal. In the original version all the races and classes were slightly powered up, character creation started at 3rd level, and it was recommended each player have 3-4 characters that they rotated so they could swap one in as another was killed or taken out of the action for awhile.

    I have heard that the plan is that all the races and classes in the original setting will be in the 4e campaign setting so we should be seeing PC races for mul (half-dwarves), thri-kreen (six limbed humanoid insects), Aarakocra (bird men), and Pterrans (kind of a smaller, speedier, lizard man) and new classes of gladiator (one-one one combat specialist), preserver (uses arcane magic carefully so it doesn't suck life force), defiler (sucks life force to power their arcane magic), templar (no gods and thus paladins in the setting but templars kind of fill the niche without all that good alignment bother), and trader (a diplomatic/negotiating rogue sub-class).
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:57 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    My biggest concern is that Wizards isn't keen enough to do it this way and will just be content with plundering GH for ideas to pad their splatbooks. And also I'm concerned they won't be open to fan input like has been discussed above. WotC is very insulated to submissions and critique anymore. The chance we get another fan friendly team like Holian, SKR, Weining and Mona to lead on GH are near nil unless 4e is embraced.


    Oh, I think it goes well beyond that. CONSPIRACY THEORY WARNING:

    I suspect Wotc is developing a "core" or "points of light" setting that will, in fact and very intentionally plunder what Wotc sees as the "good bits" from a variety of settings, like the 4e core gods - Asmodeus, Bane, Pelor etc. Why? Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation GO JOE Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

    With the success of Transformers and GI Joe movies (frighteningly "franchises" is probably the right term), I think it inevitable that Hasbro will be looking for more "action" toys or games that can be translated successfully (at least from a commercial standpoint) to the screen.

    With the success of LotR, the Hobbit on the way, Narnia in the bag, Harry Potter setting up the youngsters for fantasy etc. I see a majot D&D movie leveraging the "core" as all but inevitable. I say "major" to distinguish what will be produced from the amateur-hour D&D "movies" that have already been made. Say what you want about Transformers and GI Joe but they look good. The prior D&D movies looked awful. I expect the next Hasbro helmed D&D movie to look every bit as good as Transformers. The story? That would be another matter.

    So, the rape of Greyhawk (charitably, think Sabine women) is on. Other settings will likely get something similar.

    Dungeons and Dragons the Movie - Join Elminster and Mordenkainen as they battle Dragotha to save the Seven Sisters from Asmodeus. The action rages from Waterdeep to the City of Greyhawk to the climatic battle in the depths the Abyss in the Astral Sea! Starring: Bill Murray as Elminster, Patrick Stewart as Mordenkainen, John Cleese as Asmodeus, and Angelina Jolie as all Seven Sisters! With Keanu Reaves as Fighter! Tom Hanks as Wizard! Margaret Cho as Cleric! And Miley Cyrus as Thief!
    Razz
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:11 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    So, the rape of Greyhawk (charitably, think Sabine women) is on.


    Rape of the Sabine women. That was charitable? Shocked

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Starring: Bill Murray as Elminster, Patrick Stewart as Mordenkainen, John Cleese as Asmodeus, and Angelina Jolie as all Seven Sisters! With Keanu Reaves as Fighter! Tom Hanks as Wizard! Margaret Cho as Cleric! And Miley Cyrus as Thief!
    Razz


    Dude, now that's twisted! Evil Grin

    And something Hasbro would do! Evil
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:13 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    So, the rape of Greyhawk (charitably, think Sabine women) is on.


    Rape of the Sabine women. That was charitable? Shocked

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Starring: Bill Murray as Elminster, Patrick Stewart as Mordenkainen, John Cleese as Asmodeus, and Angelina Jolie as all Seven Sisters! With Keanu Reaves as Fighter! Tom Hanks as Wizard! Margaret Cho as Cleric! And Miley Cyrus as Thief!
    Razz


    Dude, now that's twisted! Evil Grin

    And something Hasbro would do! Evil


    Well, the Sabine were raped in the context of being abducted as wives by the Romans, not in a purely sexual act limited to just the act. In the same way, Wotc might "rape" Greyhawk but to the purpose of taking abductees to place and keep in the "Core." Better than "Funny" Castle Greyhawk one-shot style use of Greyhawk. Charitably.

    Dungeons and Dragons: The Movie! With, Dennis Leary as Elf! Harvey Fierstein as Dwarf! And voicing Dragotha, James Gandolfini!

    Wink
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:56 pm  

    You might be onto something there GVD. Also, Marlon Wayans was in the last D&D movie and he was in GI Joe...what's that have to do with anything? I don't know!!!! Neutral
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:54 am  

    I'm still trying to figure out if that was said in Henchman #21's voice or Henchman #24's voice. Laughing
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:01 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Well, the Sabine were raped in the context of being abducted as wives by the Romans, not in a purely sexual act limited to just the act.


    True, but no one ever said that they were willing! Evil Grin

    Wait a minute! Marlon Wayans as Henchman #21, or maybe #24!? Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Mort, Ceb, you guys are too much! Next you'll be resurrecting Abbot and Costelo to play the comic relief! Laughing Laughing Cool
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:01 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    Well, the Sabine were raped in the context of being abducted as wives by the Romans, not in a purely sexual act limited to just the act.


    True, but no one ever said that they were willing! Evil Grin

    Wait a minute! Marlon Wayans as Henchman #21, or maybe #24!? Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Neither is Greyhawk "willing." At least not in my view.

    Dungeons and Dragons: The Movie - Appearing as Beory, Rosanne Barr! As Boccob - Jerry Seinfeld! As Pelor - Laurence Fishburne! As Vecna - Colin Ferral! And as Iuz - Andy Serkis!

    Directed by Martin Scorsese(sp). Story adapted by M. Night Shyamalan. Smile
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:56 pm  

    The twist ending of M. Night Shyamalan?

    It was Forgotten Realms all along Evil Grin
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:57 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Neither is Greyhawk "willing." At least not in my view.


    As long as those of us who truly love Greyhawk live, then Greyhawk will never be "willing."

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Dungeons and Dragons: The Movie - Appearing as Beory, Rosanne Barr! As Boccob - Jerry Seinfeld! As Pelor - Laurence Fishburne! As Vecna - Colin Ferral! And as Iuz - Andy Serkis!

    Directed by Martin Scorsese(sp). Story adapted by M. Night Shyamalan. Smile


    You need help, my friend! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Sadly, it just might really happen that way. Shocked Sad

    We must maintain the bulwark! Evil Grin Cool Wink
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    Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:15 am  

    I seriously doubt a movie is in the near future for D&D. In order to have a movie you have to have a story, and D&D lacks that (or, you could say it has millions of them).

    No, WotC's strategy is almost entirely focused on increasing its market. They want to do so by mainstreaming D&D (yeah, right) and divesting it of it's "geek" reputation, and also by making it as dependent as possible on the computer.

    That said, if WotC's strategy works, Hasbro will undoubtedly begin to market their IP (D&D) in other ways. As I've predicted before, they'll likely go into action figures, LEGO building sets, video games, and all that kind of stuff. Only THEN will they think of doing a movie, and only if they think they have a compelling story to tell that will support toy and game sales. This hypothetical story almost absolutely will involve little more than combat of some sort - an epic battle between good and evil, with only enough sidestory to keep interest between fight scenes. I give you G.I. Joe and the Transformers movies.
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    Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:39 am  

    I think the probability of a D&D movie is higher than ever before... With the success of LotR and Harry Potter producers are more willing to risk Fantasy movies than ever before. That being said, I still think it's unlikely that there will be a D&D movie (more likely than ever, but still pretty damn unlikely) because its been done twice before and failed.

    The original D&D movie was so bad it made me almost want to be ashamed I played the game. Its definitely on my list of all time worst movies. The second movie, Wrath of the dragon-god (or dragon-king?) was actually a fairly good movie from a gamer's perceptive, but it still tanked in the main stream.

    I agree that WotC's focus right now seems to be main-streaming and un-geeking the game. I'd add that its also an effort to bring the game into something that can compete in the MMORPG/CCG/Console Game environment. Unfortunately I don't really like the approach they are using of making the pen and paper game as 'computer gamish' as possible.

    1st Edition is a RPG with rules based on wargaming rules
    3rd Edition is a RPG with rules that try to mimic reality as much as possible.
    4th Edition is a RPG with rules that try to emulate computer games... which is kind of ironic since the computer games it is mimicing are games that mimic 1-3rd edition.
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