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    Canonfire :: View topic - Origins of the Flan
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    Origins of the Flan
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:16 am  
    Origins of the Flan

    Crab a cup of coffee and something to eat, then start reading. Evil Grin

    In an interview with Paul Stromberg, in the Oerth Journal #12, Gary Gygax was asked: "Recorded calendars aside, which human or demihuman race has dwelled in the Flanaess the longest?"

    Gygax answered: "The flan. No question. Then the demihumans started "appearing" after some time, a few centuries."

    But this contradicts the Oerth Journal #1.


    Citing as his sources Gary Gygax, Len Lokofka, World of Greyhawk (TSR) and Greyhawk Adventures (TSR) Steve Wilson writes:

    "3247 SD The years of Conquest . . . The Flanae in the southeast (just west of the Hellfurnaces) . . . under the grip of the Seuloise fist.

    "3250 SD The Flanae, under the protection of Beory, Pelor and Rao flee their lands in mass, making a perilous crossing of the Hellfurnaces. They move North into the lands of Eastern Oerik, later called the Flanaess, as the first human inhabitants of the area. Initially, they were well received by the demi-humans dwelling there (-2266 CY).

    "3365 SD The founding of the first Flanae City in the Lortmil mountains in eastern Oerik, this is counted as year (1 FT/-2151 CY)."

    Now, before anyone cries "Apocrypha!" I will remind you that Mr. Wilson cited CANON materials as his source. (Something I have been experiencing with my contributions to the Greyhawk wiki. Happy )

    So, in the cited interview, was Gygax changing his mind, or changing already printed Canon materials? Confused

    In my discussions in the "mordy's hair" thread, some spoke of the Hellfurnaces preventing the Suel from having any significant cultural impact on the Flan, as our own ocean separated native americans from europeans.

    But it would seem that some Canon material makes obvious the fact that the Suel had an extreme impact on Flan culture before the Flan ever arrived in the Flanaess, as some Canon material obviously makes it evident that demi-humans lived in the Flanaess before the Flan. Remember, Mr. Wilson cited Canon sources for his work.

    Gary Gygax created the World of Greyhawk, true. But every author would find him/her-self very hard pressed to write "umpteen" books about something and then change his/her mind and completely negate their previous books with a different story in the newest book. It doesn't really work.

    These articles cause me to ask many questions, but we'll take them one at a time and all in this thread. As one question is answered . . . expect another.

    Before we can discuss the amount of influence, if any, that the Suel or Baklunish might have played in the developement of Sulm or Tenh or any other Flanae kingdom, we have to "know" just where the Flan originated.

    So, what does Canon dogma really say?
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:26 pm  

    Hmm....this is very interesting....

    I guess I'll go with the easy (and kind of cowardly, I admit! Happy ) answer and say; well some Flan lived in the Flaness and some across the Mountains.

    To speculate further; perhaps at some point in far distant pre-history; some Flan made a migration across the mountains while many (most?) of thier kin stayed behind. Perhaps these Flan eventually traveled to the Barrens and Tenh before more or less "settling" there. Later; those Flan who had stayed behind fell under the yoke of the Suloise (and/or Baklunish as well...) before some intrepid leaders (perhaps inspired by thier long-ago ancestors) decided to lead a mass exodus across the mountains. These Flan seperated into two major groups: those that stayed in the Sheldomar region and those that spread further East; eventually to the region south of the Nyr Dyv.

    The Sheldomar Flan took to the lands of what is now Geoff and Sterich while those that spread to the Nyr Dyv founded the (now-lost) cultures on the Isles of Woe and Sulm in the Bright Desert. These groups; perhaps too inspired by their former wicked Suloise overlords; set up societies too similiar to the dark Suloise and so, sure enough, in time, both of these cultures/kingdoms were brought low...

    I dont' know....just thinking out loud here; but this could also help explain the differences in custom/technology level, etc. among the various Flan regions/nations...


    Last edited by maxvale76 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:27 pm  

    Personally, all canon/dogma aside, I have always maintained that the Flan were always in the Flanaess alongside various demihuman and humanoid populatiions. It wasn't until the Great Migrations that other humans had any interaction and/or influence on the Flan peoples. I have also that the Olman are an offshoot of the Flan, seperated by a few thousand years.
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:05 pm  

    I think we tend to think that all humans originated from a common point and then migrated throughout the rest of the world (or are in the process of migrating), gradually becoming different races, like they did here on Earth. However, if each race of humans were created by their respective pantheons, there's no reason why each race could not have independently sprung up in different locations. With that in mind, I would say that the Flan have ALWAYS been in the Flanaess. They were created there! Smile
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:10 pm  

    gargoyle wrote:
    I have also that the Olman are an offshoot of the Flan, seperated by a few thousand years.


    Interesting, but you should know that this same article states:

    "-717 SD A group of beautiful dark skinned people called Kersi from over the southern sea from a large island continent they called AnaKeri arrived on the southern portion of the Flanaess in large wooden platformed outriggers (-6233 CY).

    "-15 SD First Protector Alianor-b-Hurn . . . first attacks the settlements of the Kersi to the south and proclaims their lands forfeit to the Seul peoples. He then begins planning "The great invasion of AnaKeri" (-5531 CY).

    "-2 SD Alianor with a large naval force attempts to invade AnaKeri . . . The Clerics of AnaKeri . . . call on their Powers . . . the powers encircle the island continent with a maelstrom . . . Few straggling ships return . . .

    "3247 SD The years of Conquest . . . the Kersi (the long distant descendants of those who first sailed from AnaKeri) to the south . . ."

    The "island continent" of AnaKeri sounds a lot like the "island continent" of Hepmonaland to me, where the Olman supposedly originated. And the "southern portion of the Flanaess" sounds a lot like the "Amedio Jungle" too. Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 6:

    "The Olman originated on Hepmonaland, raising a number of city-states from the jungles of that land . . . they built an empire . . . to include the Amedio Jungle . . ."

    Yep, sure sounds like the Kersi to me . . . Confused
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:44 pm  

    Okay, I'll take this on...

    First, concerning Gygax: It is well known that Gygax was wont to invent things on the spot, "misremember" things, and even (it has been suggested) mislead his interviewers and others concerning the details of his campaign. Thus, anything said by Gygax or quoted from him is highly suspect. Further, it is well known that Gygax's actual world and the world he eventually published were far from being the same - many details varied, and there's no telling which set of "facts" he was remembering at a given time. He could well have gotten details mixed up.

    Further, though some on these boards seem reluctant to accept it, it remains a fact that authors can and do "change the facts" of their subject with some frequency. Some of this happens because of faulty memory, some because the facts don't fit new storylines as well, some because they just rethink their ideas and come up with better ones, and some because authors grow and change and naturally begin to think differently. I can verify this with my own professional experience. As a former editor, a writer, and a public speaker for the last 15 years I find that I contradict myself with some regularity, and that in spite of the fact that I deal with nonfiction and not made-up worlds. And no, that's not peculiar to just me; everyone does it. Every person I've ever met in the literary and public speaking fields has gone back to their old materials at one time or another and discovered something that they couldn't believe they'd said. Establishing an entirely consistent "canon" - even of one's own works - is virtually impossible unless one takes tremendous care to avoid both mistakes and growth. So yes, Gygax easily could have contradicted himself and did from time to time.

    When it comes to Gygax it should be noted that he, Kuntz, and various others from the original campaign considered the very idea of "canon" to be ridiculous since it was the practice of their group to rework things on a constant and continuing basis. Several of them have stated they were stunned to find out people actually wanted to know "what really happened" instead of coming up with their own versions of events. Thus, I submit Gygax is not a reliable source. We must either attempt to reconcile what has been written or otherwise create our own explanations.

    Second, concerning the characteristics of the Flan: If we are to make a decision on this it appears necessary to choose a single source of canon, since even canon sources vary on the subject. For example, we have the '83 boxed set which seems to describe the Flan almost as a conglomeration of traits chosen from various races, while the illustration in "The Adventure Begins" depicts them as being very Amerindian-like. I've seen other illustrations (time prevents me from looking up specific sources ATM) depicting them as negroid, Celtic, and even blond and blue-eyed. And there's another choice no one has yet mentioned: they could have been entirely original. So either we choose a single source and say "they're like this" or we come up with another solution.

    Which brings in a little real-world reasoning. "Conventional wisdom" suggests human populations migrated and changed over the course of millennia, gradually shifting in culture and appearance as they went. But new evidence suggests this could have happened much more quickly. Seriously, how many of you look or act like your own ancestors from just a century or two ago? It has been documented, for example, that the size of babies' heads and various other traits have changed significantly over just the last 100 years or perhaps even less. Geneticists suggest that if you started with any two dogs you could reproduce every extant breed in only 400 years. So is it not possible that Flan tribes developed into multiple subcultures and appearances in only a millennium or two? Given the decreased life expectancy caused by their primitive lifestyles, coupled with the ability to reproduce unchecked, and with a little magic thrown in from various sources, it seems entirely possible they could have changed relatively swiftly.

    Third, concerning the origins and timing of the Flan arrival in the Flanaess: With the above two points in mind, it seems plausible that the Flan could have arrived from somewhere else. I dislike the idea they were once slaves/subjects of the Suel, but Gygax was known for "borrowing" from real history so he may actually have designed them that way. But we can't be sure based on the sources available. Wilson could have made that up himself. We can be sure the Flan were the "first" humans in the Flanaess, but that in no way means they were the first intelligent race there. I submit a good way of reconciling the two sources in the OP is to suggest that while demihumans were present in the Flanaess before the Flan arrived, they didn't make contact ("appear," to use EGG's words) for some time.

    So it seems plausible, and as far as I know doesn't conflict with canon, if we say that the Flan were subjects of the Suel for a while, then somehow escaped and began to inhabit the Flanaess where eventually they were well-received by an indigenous demihuman population. Following that they spread out, and due to the various factors mentioned above (and probably others as well) they gradually developed differing appearances and subcultures, some of which resembed that of Native Americans, some of which resembled that of the Celts, and some of which were entirely different.

    But the Flan were not the progenitors of the Olmans or the Touv. That has been dealt with in other publications.

    Oh, and I like the Kersi stuff, Scholar. Well done.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:54 pm  

    It depends on if you want to consider OJ as canon. I will point out that what looks to be a large part of the material for the OJ 1 timelines is original to those works and not derived from any published materials from Gygax, Lakofka, or any of the other sources Steve Wilson derives his work from. Also, some of it is later contradicted by published GH materials.
    Not to rule out the possibility that Gygax may have changed his mind on the matter, he was known to do that occasionally. Speaking for myself I'm going to go with what Gygax says as long as it doesn't contradict published sources that I consider canon, and it works for me. I have no problem with the Flan having been in the Flanaess longer than any other race (or at least demi-humans). The only problem with that in published sources is the line in "Exag, City of Clay" DNG #145 which says "About 2,600 years ago, the Flan people spread across the Eastern Oerik continent." Some have pointed out that this doesn't say that they migrated into the Flanaess but spread across, and may have existed in more localized parts of the Flanaess. This may sound weak to some and they would just as soon throw out the reference altogether, but I have no problem with it. As far as we know from published materials there is no evidence that the Flan existed outside of one area of the Flanaess before c. - 2,010 CY. Creighton Broadhurst's "Mysterious Places: Dominions of the Flannae" dates Flan civilizations in what would become the Bright Desert to c. -4,000 CY. The same article talks of the inhabitants of the Dragonshead Peninsula (Onnwal) in the kingdom of Caerdiralor as fleeing to the shores of those lands by sea at about that time. It might be assumed that the Caerdiralor were Flan, but this need not be the case, although it works just as well that as well as localized Flan in the yet-to-be Bright Desert there were some on the Dragonshead Peninsula. Someone might want to ask Creighton about this.
    I could see the Flan, localized in a section of the Flanaess around the Sea of Gearnat, having risen up in the civilization of Sulm and then spread out from there into the North, East, Central Flanaess and Sheldomar Valley for some mysterious reason around 2,600 years ago. It works for me, but not everyone's gonna buy it.
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:23 pm  
    Re: Origins of the Flan

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Now, before anyone cries "Apocrypha!" I will remind you that Mr. Wilson cited CANON materials as his source.


    He cited some sources, yes, but the vast majority of the timelines was stuff he made up.

    And they're largely contradicted by later canon sources. Many of the major events in the Suel and Baklunish timelines couldn't have happened (because canon placed the Suel Elemental Binders' creation to the time of the Baklunish-Suloise Wars and changed the origin of the Baklunish Caliphate to BH 1, to name just two examples. I made edited versions of both for my own purposes and I really had to shred them to make them comport with official lore).

    The OJ#1 timelines aren't merely apocrypha. For the most part, they're fanon, and only have as much relevance as you choose to give them.

    (However, The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory does use the Oerth Journal #1 Suel timeline as a source, which gives it some apocryphal value).

    Quote:
    So, in the cited interview, was Gygax changing his mind, or changing already printed Canon materials?


    Neither. He was contradicting one fan's interpretation. That's all.

    Quote:
    Remember, Mr. Wilson cited Canon sources for his work.


    Citing canon sources doesn't make the stuff you make up into canon. It just means it's partially inspired by canon (and Steve Wilson misinterpreted canon badly in places, for example in placing Vecna in the eastern Flanaess instead of in the Sheldomar where the Neheli settled).

    The Kersi stuff is either Steve Wilson's or Len Lakofka's original work. It's not canon either (though it's the reason why the small unnamed continent in Oerth's southern hemisphere is often known as AnaKeri or "Terra Anakeris" by fans).
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:46 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    It might be assumed that the Caerdiralor were Flan, but this need not be the case, although it works just as well that as well as localized Flan in the yet-to-be Bright Desert there were some on the Dragonshead Peninsula. Someone might want to ask Creighton about this.


    Caerdiralor is detailed much more extensively in the Onnwal Gazetteer downloadable from this site, for what it's worth (not "canon," unfortunately, but it certainly shares light on Creighton's intentions). That source makes them explicitly Flan: "Mystics of the fledgling Flan kingdom were led into the Headlands by dreams of knowledge and power."
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:56 pm  

    Ditto Rip on Wilson's OJ1 timeline--too much fanon to be useful. For a canonical timeline by Wilson, see the Greychrondex: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/ghchrondex.php
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:48 pm  

    Thanks for the link, Robbastard. Happy

    I notice that much of the "doings" of that timeline you linked are "undated." In fact (agreeing with you and Rip) I find that, even in Canon the dates for some events are often contradictory. Razz

    Speaking only for myself, I'd like a little less mystery in some of those things. Not all mind you, but given what we know about the Roman Empire I wouldn't mind "knowing" that Emperor so-and-so ruled from this date to this date -- definitely. Some of this stuff -- "he ruled anywhere from 500 to 5000 years ago" -- is a bit ridiculous. Some things can be pinpointed with a little more accuracy than that! Razz (There was a little hyperbole thrown in there)

    I've been busy over on the Greyhawk wiki and need to stop and tend to a couple of things, but more questions in line with this subject are forth coming -- as promised.

    Back in awhile. You have been warned! Evil Grin
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:49 pm  

    To help this out I threw together a timeline of pre-Migration Flan events, including the Bright Desert articles in Dungeon and the WotC site. I pretty much stuck to published sources. Some of my dating may be wonky by a hundred or so years, but some of the material seems to contradict itself, or maybe I just can't read. Add to it or make corrections as you will.

    c. -4,000 CY -- Refugees from the vile Flan kingdom of Caerdiralor on the Dragonshead Peninsula, fleeing from the magical destruction of their capital Myrsyrna, land on the coast of the grasslands of what will one day become the Bright Desert. Unable to escape through the Abbor Alz and hunted by the native nomadic Flan horse tribes, the refugees are driven into hiding. Places of Mystery: Dominions of the Flannae WoTC website, and Into the Bright Desert DNG # 98.
    c. -2150 CY – First year of Flannae Tracking calendar. Player’s Guide to Greyhawk
    c. -2010 CY -- The Flan people spread across the Eastern Oerik continent. Exag, City of Clay DNG # 145
    c. – 1900 CY to c. -1210 CY -- Under the tutoring of the semi-divine Vathris, the six tribes of the region that will one day be the Bright Desert form six kingdoms – Durha, Itar, Sulm, Ronhass, Rhugha, and Truun. The Sulm, influenced by the dark priests of the Caerdiralor begin conquering their neighbors. They defeat all except Itar, who is their only rival in strength. After three decades of warfare the Sulm defeat the Itar on the Plain of Spears, killing Vathris. The Sulm invoke an earthquake that cases the Itari capital of Sennerae into the sea of Gearnat. Under the influence of internal corruption, Sulm begins to decline. Places of Mystery: Dominions of the Flannae, Into the Bright Desert DNG # 98, Rary the Traitor, Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook, Bloof of Heroes LGJ # 3.
    c. -1500 CY -- Kerpatis becomes “protector” of Tostenhca. Return to White Plume Mountain.
    c. -1100 CY -- Xagy and the fire goddess Joramy create Queen Ehlissa’s Wondrous Nightingale. 1st edition Dungeon Master’s Guide.
    Keraptis is driven out of Tostenhca.
    c. -1000 CY -- Flan tribes inhabit the Pomarj (the Kingdom of Krovis?). Slavers
    c. ? The Flan citadel of Veralos trades with the Flan kingdoms of Nuria, Sulm and Itar.
    c. -800 CY -- Keraptis establishes himself in White Plume Mountain by slaying a druid of the Elder Age, Aegwareth, who guarded the mountain. Return to White Plume Mountain.
    Thingizard, Witch of the Fens already a resident of the Great Swamp north of White Plume Mountain. Return to White Plume Mountain.
    c. -700 CY --The Sulmi necromancer Kyuss is exiled from that kingdom, finding refuge in the Amedio jungle with his followers. Sulm falls to a curse invoked by its own king, Shattados, when he uses an artifact known as the Scorpion Crown. The lands of Sulm are transformed into the Bright Desert.
    c. -620 CY Krritarius, a half-Flan, half-Suel archmage of the Suloise Empire travels in the Flanaess, finding the serpent symbol of Keraptis in the Rakers. Hidden Agendas: Secret Societies of the Flanaess DRG # 256
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:36 pm  

    Wow.....I feel like an 8th grader at a college Physics class... Happy

    While I own a fair bit of 1st and 2nd Edition Greyhawk material; I have no 3rd Edition or Living Greyhawk stuff (mostly 'cause I took one look at the 3rd edition Player's Handbook and ran for the hills....HATED it); so at lot of this is new material to me.....but I like the gist of much of it...

    Looks like some of my earlier out-loud thinking wasn't too far off! As for whether the Flan were always on the Eastern side of the Hellfurnaces/Crystalmists; seems to be debatable.....I think I'll go with they migrated there....but BEFORE the demihumans showed up.....but to each thier own....
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:11 pm  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    Wow.....I feel like an 8th grader at a college Physics class... Happy


    Happens to me all the time. You get used to it. Wink
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:42 pm  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    While I own a fair bit of 1st and 2nd Edition Greyhawk material; I have no 3rd Edition or Living Greyhawk stuff (mostly 'cause I took one look at the 3rd edition Player's Handbook and ran for the hills....HATED it); so at lot of this is new material to me.....but I like the gist of much of it...


    This is of course one reason to keep an open mind about new things, as 99% of the 3e era Greyhawk content published by WotC was all about background and not about the rules system whatsoever. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer for instance contains little more than something like "fighter 8" for some of the NPCs, and that translates to any edition. It is just a big book of fluff.
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    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:47 am  

    Max, glad you're having fun! Happy

    Although I appreciate what's being said about "timelines," that really has little to do with the "events." For example, the OJ #1 article says that the Flan settled in the Flanaess in -2266 CY while the timeline submitted by Smillan shows Flan events within the flanaess taking place in -4000 CY, a difference of some 1750 years . . . in the timeline. What does that have to do with the events? Confused

    Another example; the OJ #1 shows the Flan beginning their calendar in -2151 CY, while Smillan's shows the Flan doing this in -2150 CY, a difference of one year. The timelines are "off" to varying degrees, but that doesn't change the events.

    As for Flan "slavery," Bubbagump, I would point out that Rome began as a village and then proceeded to conquer their neighbors. The OJ #1 article espouses something similar for the Suel:

    "-900 SD The first of a group of traveling Grey Elves . . . meet with tribal leaders of the Se-Ul (People of Ul). They strike up a friendship . . .

    "-551 SD The Se-Ul began systematized trading with . . . The Baklun in the northern plains, and the Flan who dwelt just west of the mountains . . .

    "3247 SD The years of Conquest and Prosperity begin . . . Slavery becomes common and widespread in the Seuloise lands; this continues for many centuries . . . The Flanae in the southeast (just west of the Hellfurnaces), the Oerid . . . the Kersi . . . the Baklun . . . several unnamed small tribes . . . all fall under the grip of the Seuloise fist. The entire of the western half of Oerik, is controlled by the Seul. But the drow and darker forces, and a fear of other elves, halt the eastern expansion. (-2269 CY)"

    So, in this timeline, the enslavement of all these people took place over the breadth of 3700 years. Rome didn't take quite that long to do it. Wink

    Irongolem, you certainly have a valid point, but I would simply point out its flaw in regards to my topic.

    The Flan were created in Los Angeles, the Oerid in New York, the Suel in London, the Baklun in Cairo and the Olman in Moscow . . . all well and good. But its all genetics, Flan are Flan, not Oerid's.

    It is unreasonable to assume that Beory, Rao and Pelor created the Flan in Los Angeles, New York, London, Cairo and Moscow simultaneously . . . and they all know that they are -- genetically -- Flan and recognize each other as such. It would only be possible if the Gods made this knowledge available to them by divine means, yet we are told in Canon that the Gods actively seek to hide similar such knowledge from "us." That's quite a contradiction.

    As for Canon . . . I don't like it any more than "you" do, but . . . whatever WotC says is Canon, is Canon. They own it. Greyhawk is their legal property.

    That's why I was asking the more knowledgable here; What does Canon say about all of this? Confused
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:10 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    It is unreasonable to assume that Beory, Rao and Pelor created the Flan in Los Angeles, New York, London, Cairo and Moscow simultaneously . . . and they all know that they are -- genetically -- Flan and recognize each other as such. It would only be possible if the Gods made this knowledge available to them by divine means, yet we are told in Canon that the Gods actively seek to hide similar such knowledge from "us." That's quite a contradiction.


    I didn't mean to imply that the gods created the Flan simultaneously at different places in the Flanaess. I was merely saying that they didn't need to migrate TO the Flanaess from any place else. They could have originated at one spot there and then migrated throughout. The gods of other pantheons could have created their particular race of humans elsewhere on Oerth. -- Sort of like how each civilization starts out with a single city (or settlers) in different parts of the world in the Civilization computer game. Smile
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:00 am  

    I quite agree. It would certainly explain how they all "found" each other, how they all have their own version of how the world "began," etc. Cool

    At first, they each thought that "they" were "it." Then . . . who are these others? Shocked Good stuff. Happy

    But you understood my statement, each race was created in a specific place. Cool
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:08 am  

    Canon doesn't have much more to say about the history of the Flan before the Oerid-Suel migrations than Smillan posted. We know, from Ivid the Undying, that some Ur-Flan (the so-called Necromancers of the Trask) warred with the elves of the City of Summer Stars. Steve Wilson made Vecna involved with this, but it seems unlikely that he was a part of that particular event.

    I would say that if the Flan migrated from outside the Flanaess, they weren't necessarily the first humans there. Rather, there may have been multiple waves of human settlement, with the Flan one of the last waves, mostly absorbing the previous human settlers (in the way the Celts absorbed the paleolithic inhabitants of Britain, but modern English people still share DNA with the preserved corpses of ancient pre-Celtic remains).

    There's some support for this in canon. The Sinking Isle culture described in Greyhawk Adventures may have been human, and seems to have preceded the Flan. There are similar "lost races" - the Doomgrinder culture, the creators of the older burial mounds in the Cairn Hills, and so on. There are also references to Neanderthals.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:28 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Canon doesn't have much more to say about the history of the Flan before the Oerid-Suel migrations than Smillan posted.


    Understood. Canon leaves all such "questions" only vaguely answered. Confused A bit disappointing, but it leaves room for plenty of good novels. Happy

    Tell me, these maps I'm seeing of Oerik, what year (our time) did they come out?

    In the OJ #1 Wilson speak of three Suel tribes that "fled" into the west and across the ocean. According to the "new" maps of Oerik that I've seen, they had to flee over a vast amount of territory only -- having reached the end of the landmass -- to bring themselves closer to their "hated" brethren by crossing the ocean.

    The new maps plainly show that by reaching the "utter most west" of Oerik, they were much further away from the Suel Imperium than if they crossed the ocean only to land on the eastern most shore of the Flanaess. Confused

    So I'm assuming that Wilson created his timeline before the advent of the "newer" Oerik maps? Confused
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:29 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    So I'm assuming that Wilson created his timeline before the advent of the "newer" Oerik maps? Confused


    The map showing the whole continent first appeared in the Dragon Annual #1, which was published in 1996. So yes.

    Although the "ocean" they fled across could have been the Celestial Sea (south of the Celestial Imperium) rather than the Solnor.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:23 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Although the "ocean" they fled across could have been the Celestial Sea (south of the Celestial Imperium) rather than the Solnor.


    Hmmm. Confused

    I've been looking at the Duicarthan Oerik map. I think I prefer over the mountains into Zindia and into the Pearl Sea. Having had previous dealings with the Kersi, they could have headed to AnaKeri. They could have been an influence on later Kersi civilization.

    As to Smillan's posted timeline, if the Flan crossed over from Onnwal, to the Bright Desert (given Onnwal's and Sunndi's location) do we have "Canon" material showing any early contact between the Flan and the Olman of Hepmonaland?

    Incidentally, the only "picture" I have is from the LGG. The Flan are definitely portrayed as being Negroid/Celtic in appearence, while the Olman are definitely native american in appearence. Is this portrayal of the Olman consistant with other Canon materials?
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:32 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    do we have "Canon" material showing any early contact between the Flan and the Olman of Hepmonaland?


    No.

    Quote:
    Is this portrayal of the Olman consistant with other Canon materials?


    Yes. They're pretty much Aztecs in all but name.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:55 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Another example; the OJ #1 shows the Flan beginning their calendar in -2151 CY, while Smillan's shows the Flan doing this in -2150 CY, a difference of one year. The timelines are "off" to varying degrees, but that doesn't change the events.


    The conflicting dates for this event are both from Steve Wilson. Likely in the OJ Timeline Steve didn't take into account that there was no Year 0 CY, so he came up with -2151. He corrected himself in the GreyChrondex where it is -2150.

    Can you explain what you mean by "that doesn't change the events"? In the case of there being two separate dates for the beginning of the FT calendar that is true, but there are some events, regardless of the dating in the OJ Timeline that are going to conflict with the events of the timeline you can put together from published more "official" sources. Also I'm not sure anymore what the original question you were trying to get answered is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just really confused at this point.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:18 pm  

    That's just me, Smillan, trying to juggle too many individual "points" in a single subject, simultaneously. Laughing

    In the instance you just quoted -- the arrival of the Flan into the Flanaess; When they arrived would be the timeline, their actually arriving would be the event. An example:

    "They arrived in 1942!" "No, no, no, they arrived in 1827!" Shocked

    See? These "two" are arguing over the timeline of the event, they are not arguing over the fact of whether or not the subject arrived.

    Some are saying that the Flan were directly created in the Flanaess. Others are saying that they arrived in the Flanaess from somewhere else; the Suel Imperium or the Dragonshead Peninsula for example. My question was an attempt to get at "the truth."

    (Bubbagump interjects: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! Razz Evil Grin )

    I'm curious if there is anything in Canon that says -- "this is where they came from and that's it." Apparently, there is not.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:20 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Also I'm not sure anymore what the original question you were trying to get answered is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just really confused at this point.


    I guess I should have just reread the thread more closely. Duh!

    Where did the Flan originate?

    Based on what we can gather from sources that might come close to being considered canon by most folks, I would have to say that we'll never know although we can make some likely guesses. Where were they first in the Flanaess? I'd go with the areas around the Sea of Gearnat given the history there and not wishing to totally contradict the content from Exag, City of Clay which had them spreading throughout the Flanaess c. -2010. I'd say most likely they didn't come by land from the west since there would probably be other Flan in other places in the Flanaess before c. -2010. That is unless they evolved into the Flan from more primitive stock, though then you would probably have other races of humans in the Flanaess. there may well have been, but I assume not in my line of thinking because I don't want to conflict with what Gygax said about them being the first humans, preceding the demihumans. So that leaves us with 1) They either came by sea 2) they came through some supernatural or higher technological means.

    If they came by sea, then where did they come from?

    Option 2 gives us plenty of room for speculation, ranging from "that's where the gods who created them put them" to "they came from another plane via a dimensional portal of some sort. Maybe something like the Belching Vortex of Leuk-o."
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:01 pm  

    Good points, all, Smillan. Happy

    I suppose I liked the OJ #1 scheme of things because it meshes so well with our own world, humankind originating in one place and spreading out -- it relates. Makes for some good plot lines too. Cool

    But then, a multitude of pantheons creating their own idividual races in different parts of the world does follow our own mythology quite closely and that works well too. Its all a matter of POV. Wink

    I'm just looking for a way/ways to reconcil the different explanations into a logical oneness. But once again, as in our real world, the Oerth "archeologists" don't agree either! Evil Grin Laughing Laughing

    I think Wilson's Kersi are a nice touch. They would tie in well with the Olman. Although, according to the Duicathan map, they're from two different continents. Confused

    Continents? Have those things been measured? Are they as big as Australia? Does anyone else think (now that I've seen the map) that the "Super-continent" of Oerik is way too big?

    Is the "break-up" of the Oerik super-continent going to be WotC's 4e RSE? Sure looks "ripe" to me. Hey, its what happened on our world. Confused Evil
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:13 pm  

    The problem with the OJ #1 scheme is where the heck the Flan originally came from. Over the Hellfurnaces? From where? Their appearance is so distinctive compared to other races that they presumedly came from somewhere fairly isolated. They ought to have developed on a continent of their own, really - like the Flanaess (not technically a continent, but close enough).

    What's south of the Hellfurnaces? The Zahindi lands; are they supposed to be Flan, then? We also have the Olman and Suel in the same general area. West of the Baklunish lands is the Oeridian homeland, and west of that, the Celestial Imperium.

    Saying the Flan are native to the Flanaess doesn't necessarily mean that they were created there; it just means they've been there for so long that no one remembers when they first arrived. There may well be an ancestral human race that begat all the others (except possibly for the Rhennee), but the Flan look so different that I think they were separate from the Oeridians and Suel for a long, long time (unless you're going for a mythological "sons of Noah" feel, which might be interesting - but even then there needs to be a land where the legendary progenitor of the Flan first settled, some distance away from the lands of the other human progenitors). I'd like to think they were separate because they were in the Flanaess, separated by the mighty Crystalmists. Otherwise finding a place for them might be difficult. Having them originate on another world seems to be stealing the Rhennee's schtick.

    But I do like the idea that other human races preceded the Flan, at least in some parts of the Flanaess, as in Erik Mona's article on the Cairn Hills, which traces many waves of settlement in the Cairn Hills region all the way back to the Wind Dukes of Aaqa (who were, I shouldn't need to add, not remotely human). Various Greyhawk supplements note pre-Flan cultures, from the "Nerull's Bane" culture to the Sinking Isle to the mysterious creators of the Doomgrinder. Some of these may not have been human, of course.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:57 pm  

    This, of course, is the core of all problems for us Greyhawk fans. Greyhawk is a mutt. The simple truth is that too many questions were left unanswered, to many cooks stirred the pot, and too many of them didn't give a rat's patootie about canon. We'll never know the answer, because there isn't one. In many cases, if you stick with all canon sources there can't be an answer because canon contradicts itself. But that's also what makes it fun, no?

    I think, Scholar, that you're in danger of running into a brick wall here. Canon is just too unclear in this case. Which means you've got to come up with your own solution.

    Which means you've got to do some research and make logical conclusions about it.

    Which means you've got to write us an article so we can pick it apart.

    Which means you might - just might - come up with a solution that gets accepted by a significant portion of the community.

    Which means there's a small possibility you could end up being one of the many who are responsible for any new canon that gets published.

    Which means you'll be the one we're all kvetching about someday.

    Which means you're doomed.

    Which is why I say...

    "You can't handle the truth!" Cool
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:39 pm  

    Damn it people, ya' just gotta' love Bubbagump! You da' man! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    rasgon wrote:
    The problem with the OJ #1 scheme is where the heck the Flan originally came from. Over the Hellfurnaces? From where?


    I'm agreeing with you on this, Rip, ole' buddy. The more I dwell upon it, the more I think a separate developement is necessary here. What about this, Myare' Mysticum, or perhaps the Tharquish Empire? I mean, Columbus doesn't have to be the only one to do it. Shocked

    They are "fleeing" . . . whatever. Perhaps, like the Suel, their fledgling empire succumbed to Dread Tharizdun, only it was worse for them? Shocked Damn, I'm beginning to like this train of thought . . .

    They do not receive a "warm welcome" when they reach Hepmonaland (though it was so long ago that neither they nor the Olman can remember it), they then looped around to the north passing through the Lendore Isles finally making landfall at the Hestmark Highlands, settling parts of "modern day" Sunndi as they continue to migrate towards Onnwal and the Dragonshead Peninsula, say circa -6000 CY? What years was Sulm and its fellow city-states vibrant entities? Sulm, an empire built from their fragmented memories of past glories!? Confused

    (Starting that aritcle, Bubbagump! But, hey, you asked for it! Evil Grin Laughing Evil Grin )

    I mean, has anyone even written "fanon" about Myare' Mysticum, or the Tharquish Empire? What color skin do these people have? Those two empires of "today" need not reflect the Flan of 6500 years ago, why, the land could even be occupied by a totally different race of people! So we can even forget "modern" skin color! Surprised Happy

    Hey Mikey! I like it! Cool Happy

    Well!? Confused
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:31 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...has anyone even written "fanon" about Myare' Mysticum, or the Tharquish Empire?


    Actually, someone around here is writing up the Tharquish Empire as we speak. Could be Cebrion, but I just can't remember. You might (or might not, who knows?) want to find out who and collaborate.

    And Crag is all over the Celestial Empire. Come to think of it, we know that modern day Native Americans are associated with Asia, so it's possible the Flan could have come from the Celestial Empire waaaaaay back when it was settled only by primitive, godless tribesmen. That theory could work well with the "enslaved by the Suel" idea. Just a thought.
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:00 pm  

    Yes, I'm working on Tharquish. I'm up to around 10,000 words so far(plus a few maps), and I only have about 1/3 to 1/2 of it done. The format is somewhat of a cross between the LGG and the 83' boxed set books.
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:46 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Yes, I'm working on Tharquish. I'm up to around 10,000 words so far(plus a few maps), and I only have about 1/3 to 1/2 of it done. The format is somewhat of a cross between the LGG and the 83' boxed set books.


    Sorry to threadjack, but...

    I've really been looking forward to that, Ceb. Lemme know if there's anything I can do to help.
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:07 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    This, of course, is the core of all problems for us Greyhawk fans. Greyhawk is a mutt. The simple truth is that too many questions were left unanswered, to many cooks stirred the pot, and too many of them didn't give a rat's patootie about canon. We'll never know the answer, because there isn't one. In many cases, if you stick with all canon sources there can't be an answer because canon contradicts itself. But that's also what makes it fun, no?

    I think, Scholar, that you're in danger of running into a brick wall here. Canon is just too unclear in this case. Which means you've got to come up with your own solution.


    Testify, brother!

    We as Greyhawk fans become too bogged down in trying to accurately and painstakingly adhere to canon, when Gygax fully intended us to make up our own answers and tailor things to our own particular wants and needs. Canon exists as a resource that you can use as inspiration. If you don't like it, ignore it and make up whatever you want.

    Research shouldn't have to be a mandatory chore, and you shouldn't feel obligated to listen to anything Gygax, TSR, WoTC, or anybody else says. I only do research for my Canonfire stuff if I feel like it, and otherwise will quite willingly contradict canon if I want. That doesn't stop my work from being enjoyed by other fans, who can take something they like if they see it, but certainly don't have to take the whole thing.

    I don't consider anything to do with Living Greyhawk canon, for instance, and if contradict it then that's just too bad, despite whatever WoTC might say.

    You yourself are the ultimate and final arbiter of what you (and your players if you game, which I don't) consider canonical truth. Use official sources if you like, but otherwise just ignore them if they get in the way of your own vision.
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:10 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I think Wilson's Kersi are a nice touch. They would tie in well with the Olman. Although, according to the Duicathan map, they're from two different continents.


    They're actually most likely a reference to the nomads said to inhabit the southwestern Sea of Dust in Greyhawk Adventures, page 90: "Some of the natives show Suelish origins, but the majority are from farther south: a tall, slender, curly-haired folk with blue-black skin and slanted eyes." From the description, they don't resemble the Olman at all (and don't resemble the Touv either).

    My assumption has been that these are the natives of the "Zahindi" lands south of the Sea of Dust, but Steve Wilson invented the Kersi and their homeland, AnaKeri, instead. There's no real reason to believe they originated on the distant continent marked on the Duicarthan map, though, even if you accept the OJ #1 story of their arrival.
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:55 am  

    rasgon wrote:


    but the majority are from farther south: a tall, slender, curly-haired folk with blue-black skin and slanted eyes." From the description, they don't resemble the Olman at all (and don't resemble the Touv either).



    No ... that is their Torhoon blood showing Razz
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:21 pm  

    I'd leave the origins of the Flan right where they are- in the Flanaess. That's where they are from, and that's where they have always been. They may have spread outwards from there a bit, but they didn't have to migrate from the "Africa" of Oerth or anything. Quit watching that NatGeo genome project special already! Laughing
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:40 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    To help this out I threw together a timeline of pre-Migration Flan events, including the Bright Desert articles in Dungeon and the WotC site. I pretty much stuck to published sources. Some of my dating may be wonky by a hundred or so years, but some of the material seems to contradict itself, or maybe I just can't read. Add to it or make corrections as you will.

    c. -4,000 CY -- Refugees from the vile Flan kingdom of Caerdiralor on the Dragonshead Peninsula, fleeing from the magical destruction of their capital Myrsyrna, land on the coast of the grasslands of what will one day become the Bright Desert. Unable to escape through the Abbor Alz and hunted by the native nomadic Flan horse tribes, the refugees are driven into hiding. Places of Mystery: Dominions of the Flannae WoTC website, and Into the Bright Desert DNG # 98.
    c. -2150 CY – First year of Flannae Tracking calendar. Player’s Guide to Greyhawk
    c. -2010 CY -- The Flan people spread across the Eastern Oerik continent. Exag, City of Clay DNG # 145
    c. – 1900 CY to c. -1210 CY -- Under the tutoring of the semi-divine Vathris, the six tribes of the region that will one day be the Bright Desert form six kingdoms – Durha, Itar, Sulm, Ronhass, Rhugha, and Truun. The Sulm, influenced by the dark priests of the Caerdiralor begin conquering their neighbors. They defeat all except Itar, who is their only rival in strength. After three decades of warfare the Sulm defeat the Itar on the Plain of Spears, killing Vathris. The Sulm invoke an earthquake that cases the Itari capital of Sennerae into the sea of Gearnat. Under the influence of internal corruption, Sulm begins to decline. Places of Mystery: Dominions of the Flannae, Into the Bright Desert DNG # 98, Rary the Traitor, Blight on Bright Sands Sourcebook, Bloof of Heroes LGJ # 3.
    c. -1500 CY -- Kerpatis becomes “protector” of Tostenhca. Return to White Plume Mountain.
    c. -1100 CY -- Xagy and the fire goddess Joramy create Queen Ehlissa’s Wondrous Nightingale. 1st edition Dungeon Master’s Guide.
    Keraptis is driven out of Tostenhca.
    c. -1000 CY -- Flan tribes inhabit the Pomarj (the Kingdom of Krovis?). Slavers
    c. ? The Flan citadel of Veralos trades with the Flan kingdoms of Nuria, Sulm and Itar.
    c. -800 CY -- Keraptis establishes himself in White Plume Mountain by slaying a druid of the Elder Age, Aegwareth, who guarded the mountain. Return to White Plume Mountain.
    Thingizard, Witch of the Fens already a resident of the Great Swamp north of White Plume Mountain. Return to White Plume Mountain.
    c. -700 CY --The Sulmi necromancer Kyuss is exiled from that kingdom, finding refuge in the Amedio jungle with his followers. Sulm falls to a curse invoked by its own king, Shattados, when he uses an artifact known as the Scorpion Crown. The lands of Sulm are transformed into the Bright Desert.
    c. -620 CY Krritarius, a half-Flan, half-Suel archmage of the Suloise Empire travels in the Flanaess, finding the serpent symbol of Keraptis in the Rakers. Hidden Agendas: Secret Societies of the Flanaess DRG # 256


    Nice work, smillan!

    Others have noted the differences in various Flan cultures (Sheldomar vs Northeastern, for example), and the primitive state of most of the Flannae at the time of the Great Migrations.

    My theory on this is that Flan culture went through a number of cyclical phases, similar to the cultures created by RE Howard--rising from a primitive state to great civilizations, then back to barbarism after some cataclysmic event (think of Howard's Cimmerians being descended from his Atlanteans).

    We therefore find a number of "high Flan" civilizations prior to the Great Migrations: the Isles of Woe, Tostenhca, Sulm/Itar, Fleeth (as seen in Vecna: Hand of the Revenant). I see the Rovers as descendants of the survivors of the Isles of Woe, & the Tenha as descendants of the people of Tostenhca (who may have also came from the Isle of Woe themselves). I suspect that the Southwestern Flan of the Sheldomar & Velverdyva reverted to their barbaric states by the time of the Great Migrations due to the depredations of the Empire of Vecna, with the only great remaining Flan cities in that era being Ykrath & Tycheron.
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:53 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    My theory on this is...


    Now THAT is a theory worth exploring!

    (*bubbagump adds another project to his ever-growing stack of stuff, grumbling merrily all the while*) Wink
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:57 am  

    Found another Flan ref in the Places of Mystery feature in LGJ # 19. No set dates other than pre-Aerdi, but the subject is the tombs in the Headlands (called the Dragonsheads by the Flan) east of Onnwal built as the resting places of the Hradikar, a class of Flan warriors serving the Ahlissan throne. That's the ancient Flan kingdom of Queen Ehlissa fame, not the more recent Aerdi principality/kingdom. The Hradikar heroes Vestakan the Huntress, and the brothers Graguul and Venod are mentioned alongside Krovis and the warrior-chief Torvan, both from the Pomarj peninsula across the Sea of Gearnat. I'm not sure if that is meant to say that the Hradikar are part of a similar culture shared by the latter two Flan heroes and/or if they were contemporaries.

    Gary Holian wrote the article so maybe we can get him to dredge his memory or dig up any notes about this.

    One other good tidbit, the Ahlissan capital was at Karnosa, which was near where Irongate now is.

    Another thing that's dinging around in my head. I seem to remember seeing a reference somewhere to Tenh warriors carrying kukri knives and kukri-like swords (I'm assuming something like a falcata), and a separate ref to Flan warriors in the Bright Desert having similar weapons. Does anyone remember where either of these sources might be?
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    Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:29 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    My theory on this is that Flan culture went through a number of cyclical phases, similar to the cultures created by RE Howard--rising from a primitive state to great civilizations, then back to barbarism after some cataclysmic event (think of Howard's Cimmerians being descended from his Atlanteans).

    This is closest to my thinking. I like the Flan as natives of the Flanaess, but they need not always have been Flan "as we know them". I'm rather inclined to the view that elder "cultures" or "societies" die out, but the people just change.

    I also think the Flan, being a bit of a muddle in real-world imagery, have been disproportionately targeted by people looking to hang a "hook" on them; some single feature (ie kukri blades or "american indian-ness") by which to classify them.
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    Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:44 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I also think the Flan . . . have been disproportionately targeted by people looking to hang a "hook" on them; some single feature (ie kukri blades or "american indian-ness") by which to classify them.


    I don't see anything particularly wrong with that type of identification. The ancient Celts of the Hallstat and Le Tene eras -- several hundred years before Caesar met them -- warred with each other as much as with anyone else, yet each tribe was still easily identified as Celtic. Confused

    Their various tribal smiths fashioned iron weapons and jewelry that were of similar design. They wore "clan" colors to identify themselves as "tribes" -- a universal custom. They wore long sleeved shirts and pants -- unlike the Greeks or Romans. They painted themselves for war, some even fought naked -- a Celtic trait regardless of tribe. They traded with each other and had a coinage that was accepted by all the tribes. Cool

    Saying that the Flan had such similar traits and attributes that identified them specifically as Flan -- regardless of tribe -- would not be a great stretch. Happy
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    Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:08 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    I don't see anything particularly wrong with that type of identification. The ancient Celts of the Hallstat and Le Tene eras -- several hundred years before Caesar met them -- warred with each other as much as with anyone else, yet each tribe was still easily identified as Celtic. Confused

    Their various tribal smiths fashioned iron weapons and jewelry that were of similar design. They wore "clan" colors to identify themselves as "tribes" -- a universal custom. They wore long sleeved shirts and pants -- unlike the Greeks or Romans. They painted themselves for war, some even fought naked -- a Celtic trait regardless of tribe. They traded with each other and had a coinage that was accepted by all the tribes. Cool

    Saying that the Flan had such similar traits and attributes that identified them specifically as Flan -- regardless of tribe -- would not be a great stretch. Happy

    Interesting that you bring up the Celts in this discussion. Despite their physical description, the Flan in my own campaign are based as much on both the Celts and Slavs as on Amerindians. I've been working (slowly) on a background wherein the Flan are actually three different groups of peoples, that mixed their traditions and cultures long before the coming of the Suel, Oeridians or Bakluni. Someday I hope to have it ready and posted to CF.
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    Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:22 pm  

    gargoyle wrote:
    the Flan in my own campaign are based as much on both the Celts and Slavs as on Amerindians . . . I've been working (slowly) on a background . . . Someday I hope to have it ready and posted to CF.


    I look forward to reading it. Cool

    The Celts occupied much of Europe. The Germanic tribes, who displaced the Celts -- for the most part -- after Rome's victories against them, actually migrated to Europe out of today's Slavic territories as well as modern day Estonia and Latvia.

    The ancient Greeks spoke of the Keltoi (Celts) as occupying some of these same areas early on. No doubt there is some sort of biological relationship between these peoples. This is much in line with your theory of Flan developement. Happy

    Looking forward to that write-up. Working on something myself. Wink
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    Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:51 pm  

    Ceb, if you are reading this, and think it is worth it, crop it into an article for me. But, it is short, fun and not too far off topic to drop in here. Mort is you are reading this, it would be cool if you sent Ceb a little sketch of it:

    Thunder Bow of the Rovers

    The Thunder Bow of the Rovers, thought to have been used by the Chief of the Wardogs in the great battle of Opicm River, is carried in a winter wolf skin bow sock. It is a double recurved composite short bow, about four feet long, made from red buffalo horn, hide glue, prairie dog sinew cables and a core of antelope toe bones. The string is of doe rawhide. It is a minor but venerable artifact from the northern Flan known by the outside world as the Rovers of the Barrens. On one limb it has a bundle of eagle feathers and the other owl and sage. At one tip it has a golden knapped glasssteel point lashed in with blue rawhide, making it an effective short spear or lance. As of yet, it has proven indestructible. While it is, like most magical bows, deadly accurate, its special qualities come into effect only when used with a charge into battle. When thus carried in the left hand, and swung about the back to the right- or vice versa- with hoots of an owl, the carrier becomes unable to retreat from battle until there is a victory- such as the death or retreat of his enemy. All allies of the carrier within hearing distance of the hoots gain in morale, and without save, all of this enemies that hear fumble their next attack.

    Endnote: Modeled largely after Dog Solier Thunder Hawk's bow described in “A Few Horse Tales”, Primitive Archer Fall 2002.
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    Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:12 pm  

    i like to borrow from certain native american myths for the origin of the flan in my worlds. certain legends tell of how mankind originated in a great cavern beneath the earth, and crawled up through four different 'levels' or 'worlds'; each time leaving behind a bunch of people who didn't want to go any further. the last group broke out on the surface and had great trouble with the sun until they learned to adapt.

    depending on which tribe you hear the legend from, the number of layers/worlds vary, as do the exact origin. some tribe recount it as how humanity survived the great flood that all native american tribes (north, central, south, and islands) also happen to have a story of, rather than the origin of man.

    of course, i've been known to use rather odd origin stories from time to time. ^^
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    Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:24 pm  

    I just purchased a book on the Southern Piautes and was planning on adapting a few stories to localize them arround Atlatl Rock in the Valley of Fire, as certainly variants of the sorties were told there over time. I wonder if one might be appropriate for Greyhawk- Wolf and his brother Coyote. Well, I do think those two are ancient Gods of the Proto Olman of Berghoff and perhaps introduced by the Flan.
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    Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:07 pm  
    Piaute and Arapahoe

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I just purchased a book on the Southern Piautes and was planning on adapting a few stories... I wonder if one might be appropriate for Greyhawk- Wolf and his brother Coyote. Well, I do think those two are ancient Gods of the Proto Olman ....


    As the Rovers of the Barrens have clearly been discussed and their Flan origins ... I thought that I would mention that I tend to compare those Flan natives as similar to the Algonquin natives of North America. I am making an assumption there ... They are called the "Arapahi", and I equate them with the Arapahoe, both culturally and linguistically. I use the Arapahoe language and even some of their religious stylings, rather than one from the Southwest desert or the Eastern Woodlands that are more common "indian" references. I don't strongly make direct analogies, but I do use Arapahoe influence liberally, making a sort of historical-fantasy. The Ghost Dance was one that was even put into a GH adventure in Dungeon magazine. So ... I don't see any reason not to use Wolf and Coyote, but I tend to use a different group, because I think that they fit with the geography and culture that the Rovers exist in.

    Just my $.02 ... and one penny for the "Need a penny?" tray.
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    Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:48 pm  

    I would rather believe the flan originate within the flanaess. Remember most of the historical material is written from point of view of the "immigrant oeridian and suloise cultures" which entered the flanaess.

    Of course this is to be expected because the enormous impact to the region these immigrants had within the region and history is written by the victor.

    To these "immigrant oeridian and suloise cultures" the natives (flan) would tend to be lumped together regardless of obvious differences. It is a common aspect of humanity to simply dehumanize the enemy rather then attempt to understand.
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    Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:55 pm  
    Re: Piaute and Arapahoe

    Icarus wrote:
    ... rather than one from the Southwest desert ... because I think that they fit with the geography and culture that the Rovers exist in.


    I switch on ya. I was talking about the other end the Flanesse in the Southern Mountains of the Hold of the Sea Princes rather than up north in the Rovers. Razz

    Berghoff has a climate like central Mexico and the Tomoachan module describes various animal gods that seem out of place compared to the other Olman gods.
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    Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:16 am  

    The many Indian tribes of North America are actually broken down into relatively few language groups, due to their relations to one another, for instance; the Choctaw and Chickasaw were said to be descended from two brothers (though they warred with one another constantly).

    Likewise, Wolf and Coyote belong to many cultures spread throughout North and South America as well as "prehistoric" Asia, from whence the American Indian came (In fact, there are those who link Coyote with Loki, of Norse fame).

    If you're going with an American Indian culture for the Flan, then Wolf and Coyote would no doubt be familiar to all the Flan, irregardless of their location within the Flanaess.
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    Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:00 pm  

    It's possible that the Flan could have come by sea from the far west of Oerik in very ancient times, by sailing westward until they came to the Flanaess. Put this together with hints that they were confined to a part of the Flanaess (Pre-Bright Desert, Dragonshead Peninsula) before something caused them to spread throughout the entire Flanaess. If they had entered by encountering the Tilva Straits it is possible that the entire group could have bypassed those lands, which could have proved inhospitable to them for various reasons, and landed in the Sea of Gearnat region. Another thing to support this is that mankind, from my reading of canon most likely originated in the far west of the Oerik continent, and I think it unlikely that they came by land. Of course that precluded various gods creating the sub-races of man separately and placing them in different places, among a host of other possible explanations.

    BTW, related to the earlier discussion on the original thread that started this one, regarding what the Flan look like physically; to any who adhere to the hamitic school of thought I found a really nice flickr gallery of people from the region of northeastern Africa whose people were described as "hamitic". To me these sets typify what I think the purer Flan and strongest Flan-blooded mixes look like - http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72157603646908778/, http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72057594063070918/, and http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72057594063223528/.
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    Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:54 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    BTW, related to the earlier discussion on the original thread that started this one, regarding what the Flan look like physically; to any who adhere to the hamitic school of thought I found a really nice flickr gallery of people from the region of northeastern Africa whose people were described as "hamitic". To me these sets typify what I think the purer Flan and strongest Flan-blooded mixes look like - http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72157603646908778/, http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72057594063070918/, and http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72057594063223528/.

    Those are -excellent- pictures...and good lord, those people are stunning!
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    Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:02 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    I also think the Flan . . . have been disproportionately targeted by people looking to hang a "hook" on them; some single feature (ie kukri blades or "american indian-ness") by which to classify them.


    I don't see anything particularly wrong with that type of identification. The ancient Celts of the Hallstat and Le Tene eras -- several hundred years before Caesar met them -- warred with each other as much as with anyone else, yet each tribe was still easily identified as Celtic. Confused

    You illustrated my point exactly.

    I said "disproportionately"; I didn't say it was good or bad. But people are apparently compelled described the Flan -as something- (they are Celtic/Germanic/Amerindian/Indian) far more than they say the Suel are Romanesque, or the Oeridians are Basque, or the Baklunish are Persian (well, the Baklunish get typecast a lot also, but not in quite the same manner). If you like it, great. Doesn't bother me. I even understand why it's done. Just pointing it out.
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    Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:41 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    BTW, related to the earlier discussion on the original thread that started this one, regarding what the Flan look like physically; to any who adhere to the hamitic school of thought I found a really nice flickr gallery of people from the region of northeastern Africa whose people were described as "hamitic". To me these sets typify what I think the purer Flan and strongest Flan-blooded mixes look like - http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72157603646908778/, http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72057594063070918/, and http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/sets/72057594063223528/.

    Those are -excellent- pictures...and good lord, those people are stunning!


    The photographer does seem to focus on pretty girls and women Smile . Can't say I blame him, though I have to say that even the men are very handsome, and I've often thought people from this region are amongst the most beautiful in the world. Gygax's "More Meat for GH" article in DRG 55 mentions that the people of the Pale (FO) are "particularly handsome."
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    Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:07 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    But people are apparently compelled described the Flan -as something- (they are Celtic/Germanic/Amerindian/Indian) far more than they say the Suel are Romanesque, or the Oeridians are Basque, or the Baklunish are Persian . . .


    I understand your position. I believe most people are simply trying to establish a "reference point" if you will, an effort to give themselves a "mental image" of what a certain people might look like. Like what Smillan has done with his links. Cool

    (Of course, most of those pictures are of "Cushites," to be more accurate. As I said before, many of Ham's descendants were actually of lighter skin tones.) Happy

    But using cultures of our own world to identify fantasy cultures is nothing new. Remember the Riders of Rohan? They're nothing more than Vikings . . . on horseback. Happy

    Many of the customs of the Flan -- such as painting themselves -- reminds me just as much of the Celtic peoples as they do the American Indians. Happy

    Given the fact that the descriptions of the Olman are much more "Indian-like" than that of the Flan, I choose a more Celtic-like persona for the Flan. Although the Rovers do put me more in mind of the Huns, or maybe the Mongols. Evil Grin

    But that's just me. Cool
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    Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:56 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    But using cultures of our own world to identify fantasy cultures is nothing new. Remember the Riders of Rohan? They're nothing more than Vikings . . . on horseback. Happy


    Anglo-Saxons to be more accurate. Wink
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:10 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Anglo-Saxons to be more accurate. Wink


    Alright smarty-pants, err, I mean Smillan, here we go again! Laughing

    They are all of Germanic descent . . . actually. And the "people" we call "anglo-saxons" are actually a mixture of three Germanic tribes -- Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Shocked

    Yep! Modern day "anglo-saxons" are descended from three tribes, even though the unfortunate Jutes get very little mention. Evil Grin

    The Norse, the Finns, the Swedes and the Danes were vikings, all. And they are all of Germanic descent, as are the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Franks (a.k.a. France).

    White flag, Smillan, no more word games. I promise. (insert evil laugh here) Laughing Evil Grin

    Though you have a point, perhaps Anglo-Saxon would be a better description for the Riders of Rohan. Happy Cool
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:35 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...no more word games. I promise. (insert evil laugh here) Laughing Evil Grin


    Spoil sport Exclamation Wink Hengest and Horsa!

    I don't recall seeing it mentioned recently, but IIRC American Indians were frequently compared to Celts during the conquest of America- though I seem to recall that body paint had something to do with it.

    Another point worth mentioning is that I think American Indians genetically go back to Central Asia 20K- give or take- as do Europeans. They are not an offshoot branch of modern Chinese.
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:04 am  

    It seems to me we're going in circles here. Can we not just agree that the Flan show signs of both Celtic and Native American influences? And given the fact that their exact history and description is unclear in canon sources, it would seem there is considerable room to construct a multi-sourced origin that incorporates still other cultural elements. The various canon references to their origins and culture might require a little work to reconcile, it's true, but when all's said and done I suspect it would be relatively easy to simply note that several cultures combined to create what we now call the Flan, and that these spread across the Flanaess and diverged again into the present sub-cultures we see in the Rovers, the Tenha, et al. Perhaps it's not either-or, but both-and.
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:04 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    Perhaps it's not either-or, but both-and.


    What! Are you suggesting that the Picts bred with the Britons, who bred with the Saxons, who in turn bred with the Normans? Shocked

    Hengest and Horsa!

    (Or, in modern English . . . Shades of Heinz 57!) Evil Grin

    "What's that?" (Bubbagump whispers into the Scholar's ear) "You mean that really happened?" Shocked

    Ahhhhh! Shocked Thudd!

    (*Damn, I should have known not to let him get that close! The Scholar reaches for the anitdote . . . again!*) Mad

    Yeah, the Flan are a little bit of everything. I'm working on that article, Bubbagump, at least for my own WoG. I'll e-mail it to you, when its done. Whether or not anyone else ends up liking it, well, I don't worry about that. Happy Cool
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:55 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Yeah, the Flan are a little bit of everything. I'm working on that article, Bubbagump, at least for my own WoG. I'll e-mail it to you, when its done. Whether or not anyone else ends up liking it, well, I don't worry about that. Happy Cool


    Who cares if anybody likes it. I just need it to add to my ever-growing pile of evidence against you! Wink
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:55 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    It seems to me we're going in circles here. Can we not just agree that the Flan show signs of both Celtic and Native American influences? And given the fact that their exact history and description is unclear in canon sources, it would seem there is considerable room to construct a multi-sourced origin that incorporates still other cultural elements. The various canon references to their origins and culture might require a little work to reconcile, it's true, but when all's said and done I suspect it would be relatively easy to simply note that several cultures combined to create what we now call the Flan, and that these spread across the Flanaess and diverged again into the present sub-cultures we see in the Rovers, the Tenha, et al. Perhaps it's not either-or, but both-and.


    Nicely put. I've been studying all the sources for the American Indian influences. From Gygax we have the title Sachem (DRG #56), a direct ref. Other things from him imply American Indian influences such as their name for themselves being People of the Plentiful Huntinglands, and the names of Rovers (Kishwa Dogteeth, Chada Three Lances, Golden Dove), as well as the names for their clans (Great Stag, Bear Paw, Red Horse, Sly Fox, etc...), the Wardogs, which look like a reference to warrior societies, and finally, the description of Rover warriors in the encounter tables of the Glossography which gives them bone and wood breastplates. By contrast though they use the title Ataman, a cossack title; the description of their "herds," though what they herd isn't stated; and that some of the tribes provide medium cavalry, which implies chain armor (Though the description of Rover warriors in the encounter tables challenges this); and their use of the lariat as a weapon, which is more of a Mongol/Central Asian thing. Taken from this I see the Rovers as a hybrid Plains Indian, Cossack, Saami (If you assume they probably herd reindeer) culture who physically resemble Cushitic-language speakers, which is how I imagine Gygax meant it. This view however was totally run over by the Dungeon adventure "Ghost Dance" which, except for giving one of the NPC's a Shawnee name, described them as perfect caricatures of Plains Indians, even to the point where they describe gold coins as "small yellow metal disks". Since I prefer the former view, Ghost Dance doesn't quite make my canon list.
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:25 am  

    The only North American Indian "light calvary" of renown are the Kiowa, Commanche, Sioux and Cheyenne. I prefer the Mongul/Hun culture for the Rovers. Happy

    Pictures I've seen of the Rovers have a more "oriental" type armor. And the social caste would be more appropriate too. They were also mainly calvary archers. Cool

    Genghis Khan and Attilla for the Rovers . . . for me. Wink
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:42 pm  

    I'm doing a "Short Story" based in a Caerdiralor setting right now. It should be ready in a couple of days and I'll submit it to CF.
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