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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Tomb of Horrors
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    The Tomb of Horrors
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:26 am  
    The Tomb of Horrors

    I'm actually pretty surprised that I have not been able to find anyone's opinion of this module on these forums. (maybe I am just a terrible searcher)

    So as my first post I just wanted to see:

    What did/do you think about this module (S1)?

    Who was unfortunate enough to take their real characters in?

    Did you crush it or did it do it's job?

    And would you ever play it again?



    I really think I hate everything about this adventure from the "no saving throw....everything, to the fact it ignores ALL of the rules. I have a ton of respect for gygax and everything he blessed us with in his life, and as I said realize the reason why this module was created....but why Gary.....why did you make something that could eventually be formatted into a pdf file only to land in the hands of a mad-man killer DM?

    I wonder if Gary is killing God's characters in heaven with Tomb of Horrors right now...or if such an evil thing is banned up above. lol

    P.S. we actually did have 2 survivors. They were flung into the ocean and picked up by the people we left in our ship outside. I am sure those characters are nor incontinent and have Post Tomb Stress Disorder now.


    Last edited by kwflange on Thu May 16, 2013 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:39 am  

    I DMed it (with prereolled characters) just a bunch of months ago.
    TPK after 2 hours of play (the false entrance).
    After the first session, my players grew bored and told me they didn't want to finish it. They're avid for storytelling and roleplaying so I cannot really blame them. I have a personal love for old school modules, if reworked in a more colorful and meaningful way but my players seems to be too much into "modern roleplaying" to appreciate it eheh.
    Personally, I never found it as lethal as it was proclaimed, most of the traps do just a little damage and some (like the green face) can be easily avoided.
    I played it using 3.5 rules using a crossover version of S1 and the web adaptation you can download from wotc.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:54 am  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    kwflange wrote:
    I'm actually pretty surprised that I have not been able to find anyone's opinion of this module on these forums. (maybe I am just a terrible searcher)

    So as my first post I just wanted to see:

    What did/do you think about this module (S1)?

    Who was unfortunate enough to take their real characters in?

    Did you crush it or did it do it's job?

    And would you ever play it again?



    I really like ToH, not for its own self so much as for its expanded self - ToH, RtToH and College of Wizards (which are all tied together).

    Back in the day (1e), I lost multiple characters (I think I tried 3 times or so before giving up) in the Tomb and (as DM) killed multiple parties.

    I'd play it again but only in its expanded version, maybe tying in its spiritual heir - the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb - somehow. Its the connections I like; the grinder aspects, not so much.
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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:38 am  

    ToH just requires a different kind of thinking, that's all. Standard combat tactics and reliance on roleplaying just don't apply here. One must consider each obstacle and try to figure out "how can this kill me?" It also helps to research the location thoroughly before entering.

    I've DMed it several times and never really had much problem with it. Yes, someone usually dies there, but that's almost always because a player gets impatient and incautious and pulls some bone-headed move like jumping into a statue's pitch-black mouth.

    I'll definitely use it again.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:36 am  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I really like ToH, not for its own self so much as for its expanded self - ToH, RtToH and College of Wizards (which are all tied together).


    It also ties to Dead Gods (really heavily, in fact; Acererak's tampering with the Negative Energy Plane is the reason why the main villain of Dead Gods becomes undead, and part of the adventure involves a jaunt to the world where the City of Moil was originally torn from) and A Guide to the Ethereal Plane (which describes the Moil demiplane that Acererak made his base for a time). In 3e, parts of it ended up in the Epic Level Handbook and Libris Mortis, and Moil was updated in Dragon #353. In 4e, some of Return to the Tomb of Horrors and the 3rd edition Tomb of Horrors (revised) is in Open Grave.

    The revised version (not the 2nd edition Return to the Tomb of Horrors, but the 3rd edition revision of the original module) solves some of kwflange's problems with the adventure, by the way. There are no save or die effects and all the 3rd edition rules are followed. You can still get it here.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:52 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    ToH just requires a different kind of thinking, that's all. Standard combat tactics and reliance on roleplaying just don't apply here. One must consider each obstacle and try to figure out "how can this kill me?" It also helps to research the location thoroughly before entering.


    Agreed. This is definitely an example of a dungeon where the characters should leave (probably after someone dies), do some research and come back with more optimized spells and equipment. Then, repeat until done. "What's with the floating skull? Oh my gods!! Retreat!" Parties don't seem as willing to run away as often as they used to. Fools! ;-)
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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:05 pm  

    [quote="IronGolem"]
    bubbagump wrote:


    Agreed. This is definitely an example of a dungeon where the characters should leave (probably after someone dies), do some research and come back with more optimized spells and equipment. Then, repeat until done. "What's with the floating skull? Oh my gods!! Retreat!" Parties don't seem as willing to run away as often as they used to. Fools! ;-)


    The problem wasn't so much the needing to run away. We made it through to the end with almost all party members alive (I think the retarded elephant thing killed some one and some one else ended up falling in lava on the teeter-totter of utter damnation.

    It was just once we got to Acerack we were doomed. He just poped up every round to steal some ones soul with no save followed by another terrible ability or so (gotta love 2 actions a round...grumble lol). And was somehow able to do this through walls etc. (So even once escape was attempted he got a few people) And then when the druid and his cohort made it back up the steps Acerack just tossed them into the ocean. I don't know if this was the DM sparing them or a real trap lmao.

    I don't know that I would want to play this even in 3e. I forget what the demi-lich was like in 3rd. But if I recall it was in the epic level hand book and would prob still easily kill a few 14th level characters.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:05 pm  

    In the revised version, the characters don't fight the Epic Level Handbook version of Acererak at the end of the module. They fight a lesser (CR 12) construct he's created to help fuel his apotheosis.

    Open Grave has stats for both Acererak's true epic form (who the PCs encounter at the climax of Return to the Tomb of Horrors) and the lower-level construct designed to be fought at the end of the Tomb of Horrors module.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:11 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    In the revised version, the characters don't fight the Epic Level Handbook version of Acererak at the end of the module. They fight a lesser (CR 12) construct he's created to help fuel his apotheosis.

    Open Grave has stats for both Acererak's true epic form (who the PCs encounter at the climax of Return to the Tomb of Horrors) and the lower-level construct designed to be fought at the end of the Tomb of Horrors module.


    It is nice that it got rewritten into something that could actually be used in a campaign WITHOUT the intent of it killing all of the characters. I think if it was played out for players who have not been in the original AD&D version it would be pretty cool.

    For players who are familiar with the original it would probably be too much of a "Doom-bot" senario though lol.

    Personally I am going to just pretend Acererack bad mouthed Vecna and got the smack down long before any of my players were born. And all texts and tobs featuring him were destroyed. Since Vecna is the lord of secrets and all lol.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:55 pm  

    I didn't really enjoy it from a player's point of view... either it killed you if the DM was playing it straight, or the DM had to pull punches and give you extra clues to steer you from danger, or some player cheated and already knew where to go and what to avoid.

    I loved actually reading the module though, Gygax is really funny sometimes. I particually loved the Gem in the throne room that detonated doing rediculous damage... and then spend the next several weeks as a chortling puddle of orange goo as is slowly resolidified into a gem again. Not that there would be any surviors of the blast hanging around long enough to watch it.

    I'd agree with Bubbagump and Iron Golem though. When we did Tome of Horrors we were to young and impatient (as players) to back out and do some research. Years later when we did Labryinth of Madness (which our DM imported into Greyhawk up in the Rakers) we ended up spending a really long time doing a lot of detailed research... Divinations, scrying, hiring sages, tracking down NPCs reputed to have been to there. It was a lot of fun figuring out new ways of finding out more information and it saved our platemailed butts when we finally made our return.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:05 pm  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    kwflange wrote:
    I'm actually pretty surprised that I have not been able to find anyone's opinion of this module on these forums. (maybe I am just a terrible searcher).

    You're just a terrible searcher! Laughing You can find a review of this module at CF right here:
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=32

    kwflange wrote:
    So as my first post I just wanted to see:

    What did/do you think about this module (S1)?.

    Loved it, as much for its nostalgic value as for it being the ultimate meat grinder.

    kwflange wrote:
    Who was unfortunate enough to take their real characters in?)

    I ran a group with their real characters, which turned into a series of unfortunate events for them.

    I think this module sometimes gets a bad rap. Yeah, it ignores rules and can probably safely claim to have killed more parties than any other module published, but that was the point: its the ultimate deathtrap and dares high level characters to challenge it. The tomb is not hurting anyone or threatening the world, its just sitting in the middle of a swamp minding its own business. The party has to seek it out for one reason: to loot. If they don't do their homework, I say they deserve what they get! There is a solution to every trap and monster in ToH (including Acererak), its just not spelled out for the players.

    That said, I would not run this module with inexperienced players - there is no fun in that.
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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:51 pm  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    Luz wrote:
    The party has to seek it out for one reason: to loot. If they don't do their homework, I say they deserve what they get! There is a solution to every trap and monster in ToH (including Acererak), its just not spelled out for the players.


    Thank you for the link. I think every review I have ever seen has been far too kind to this module but then I had a bad experience with it.

    Having today actually downloaded a pdf of the module and what it is SUPPOSED to be like, I can see that our DM was not only railroading us into it (remember the lord of the 9 hells threatening to kill us and everything we hold dear with some how no threat of the gods intervening) But it was also refereed incorrectly. Most of the traps were far more devious than in the module (which seems impossible had you not been at our table lmao) and Acererak was stealing our souls before we ever had the opportunity to approach him. He was also casting spells. When truely we should have been able to grab the scepter of Asmodeous and leave considering no one made any attempts to touch him. We did however encounter the "dust" version of acerrack but no one had the chance to be misfortunate enough to attack it, it just flailed about and collapsed as our one mage ran from it and the rest of our party tried to figure out where this souls sucking creature was that was wasting us 2 at a time.

    I almost wish we had the chance to play through this correctly with no knowledge of it. Almost only because I think we would have done alright if no one tried to touch him...but then of course we would have. So I am not THAT into the idea lol.

    As far as "doing our homework" you have to remember Acererack was the first Demi-lich and only as of the time line when we played this. So no knowledge exsisted of such a creature to be found from tombs or Legends and lore. Also we were told that even the the Gods were unable to pierce the tomb to find out what had become of Acererack or anything else within it. So in the world we attempted it in, no one had ever heard of something like this or how it could ever possibly be defeated. Not even the god of death Weejas. Vecna, the only one to have supposidly known of him previously was not a God but merely a rumor in this world, so even the master of secrets could not be asked. Not that we would want to tangle with him had we known of his where-abouts lol.

    Oh well. I've played it and at least personally lived to play another day. I still believe a Deus Ex Machina is appropriate for all 4+ year characters to fall to this evil evil module, as long as they never wanted to enter in the first place because you worry that you can't defeat it just from the rumors lol.

    However if you are one of those players who think you can take anything on and want to go in and loot the place...I would probably approach this the way Gary did and be far less empathetic lol.

    EDIT: now that I have read through the original module I understand what it is supposed to be like and have changed my post to reflect the answers I have found.


    Last edited by kwflange on Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:23 am; edited 2 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:03 pm  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I really like ToH, not for its own self so much as for its expanded self - ToH, RtToH and College of Wizards (which are all tied together).


    How does it tie into College of Wizardry?
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    Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:24 am  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    Thanael wrote:


    How does it tie into College of Wizardry?


    Voldemort studied in the Tomb of Horrors under Acerreack and now Harry has to stop him.

    I thought that was all in the preface.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:20 pm  

    I remember reading something somewhere long ago that Gary developed it to put players who got too big for their britches in their place. The player who feels that his character is unstoppable and is vocal about it.

    I ran the 2E version of it. I gave my players 'god calls' in case they ran into something real bad, and they did. Half the party died fighting Acererak (3 players), one character lost all his equipment. It was pretty brutal and they did defeat him.

    I'm about to run it again with the characters in the back of the module. When i proposed that to my group, one of them likes the idea of a thinking module, some players started to cuss me out!

    Anyway. I like the idea of no-save die traps. Heck, if you fall into lava and get a save, the lava ain't doing its job!

    I like the module and I look forward to running it again with my group.

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    Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:18 pm  
    Re: The Tomb of Horrors

    kwflange wrote:

    Having today actually downloaded a pdf of the module and what it is SUPPOSED to be like, I can see that our DM was not only railroading us into it (remember the lord of the 9 hells threatening to kill us and everything we hold dear with some how no threat of the gods intervening) But it was also refereed incorrectly. Most of the traps were far more devious than in the module (which seems impossible had you not been at our table lmao) and Acererak was stealing our souls before we ever had the opportunity to approach him. He was also casting spells. When truely we should have been able to grab the scepter of Asmodeous and leave considering no one made any attempts to touch him. We did however encounter the "dust" version of acerrack but no one had the chance to be misfortunate enough to attack it, it just flailed about and collapsed as our one mage ran from it and the rest of our party tried to figure out where this souls sucking creature was that was wasting us 2 at a time.

    Yeesh, your DM is truly evil Laughing ToH is tough enough, sounds like he made it completely impossible for you to succeed.
    kwflange wrote:

    As far as "doing our homework" you have to remember Acererack was the first Demi-lich and only as of the time line when we played this. So no knowledge exsisted of such a creature to be found from tombs or Legends and lore.

    I'll consent that, in those days, a demilich was unheard of and even if the party did their homework, it was unlikely they'd defeat him. Again though, the module did leave an out for the PCs (which, unfortanately for you, your DM did not allow) which was not to battle Acererak at all. Of course, I'm sure Gygax knew full well most players wouldn't use that option...damn, this module was genius!
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    Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:31 pm  

    GreyMouser wrote:
    I remember reading something somewhere long ago that Gary developed it to put players who got too big for their britches in their place. The player who feels that his character is unstoppable and is vocal about it.


    In the forward to Return to the Tomb of Horrors, pg.3:
    Quote:
    Before I put it into manuscript form for publication, I carried the scenario around with me in my briefcase, so as to be ready for those fans who boasted of having mighty PCs able to best any challenge offered by the AD&D game. After an hour or so of time spent within the weird labyrinth of Acererak's final "resting place', the players whose characters were survivors typically remembered suddenly that they had pressing engagements elsewhere. clutching their precious character sheets, they fled the table.Those who had already lost their vaunted PCs had previously departed, muttering darkly about "impossible deathtraps."

    Kwflange, if you seriously would like another shot at this dungeon, I strongly reccomend the follow-up Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Even if you know the original, it will not spoil the adventure.
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    Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:34 am  

    After Jeff D's iconic cover, of course (down below.) IMHO, this module will always be a classic, whether it kills your favorite character or not. A top 3 favorite of mine from back in TSR's heyday.

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    Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:22 pm  

    Excellent rendition, Glad. Is that done in pencil crayon or some other medium? Looks great anyway.

    Ah, the classic Jeff Dee cover. One of his best, I thought. The Erol Otis back cover piece was equally cool, too. A really good move on TSR's part to redo the cover - the old monochrome cover by Dave C. Sutherland III left something to be desired, no matter how charming it was or how nostalgically fond I am of it today. Besides the awesome work done by Dave Trampier, the rest of the interior artwork was also mediocre at best.
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    Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:25 am  

    Luz wrote:
    Excellent rendition, Glad. Is that done in pencil crayon or some other medium? Looks great anyway.

    Ah, the classic Jeff Dee cover. One of his best, I thought. The Erol Otis back cover piece was equally cool, too. A really good move on TSR's part to redo the cover - the old monochrome cover by Dave C. Sutherland III left something to be desired, no matter how charming it was or how nostalgically fond I am of it today. Besides the awesome work done by Dave Trampier, the rest of the interior artwork was also mediocre at best.


    Thanks, Luz....it was done in pen, colored pencil, water colors and a touch of acrylics.

    And yeah, I feel the same way about DCS's monochrome cover from the original. It's very nostalgic, but not exactly the most asthetically pleasing piece of RPG art I've ever seen, IMHO.
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    Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:23 pm  

    well, just want to share with you guys:

    i DMed ToF last friday, as a "last game of the year". we just finished our arc of adventures in Furyondy and we are going to Greyhawk City and surrounds.


    The game was just for fun, as a "dream", so we all knew the pcs were going to die.

    we play for something like 16 or 17 years, but never been a fan of dungeons per se. so, the players had no experiece beyond the basics of dungeon crawl!

    a group of 9 characters, mixed classes, and all 6 level (hey, some guys at DF had sad they finished the module with 1st level characters so...).

    the bard, 2 thiefs and the mage got crusched by the the stones in false door number 1. the pits in the right door were actually funny!

    the torch bearer lost he torch at the green devil face, but not his hand!
    then, they got sex changed-butt naked- alig. changed at the 10x10 little room, till they pulled the sticks the wrong way and fall in the 100' pit trap.

    we all had lots of fun and laughs, and reading how some guys had survived, i must say i love this module. yes, theres some save or die, but your are suppose to think 3 times before doing things like stick your hand in the box, or take that evil looking skull for yourself ;)

    (edit: oh, one more thing- i read the moule several times, but i still dont think i get how do the players find the entrances! the are "ground level" or are in the same place as the black stones that make the skull face?)
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    Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:46 am  



    From a side view of Acererak's mound, rossik, it would look something like this as far as where the entrance is. I've always envisioned the party going up the side of the mound where I have the 3 little stick figures drawn (southern side) and having to find the 3 entrances on the northern side of the mound's cliff.

    I've always chuckled slightly at the description of the rocks that create the "skull mound" because Gygax writes, "and if these are viewed from a height of 200' or so above the mound, it will be seen that the whole is shaped like a human skull...."

    Cause', ya' know....every adventurer checks their surroundings from 200' up in the air. Laughing
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    Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:10 am  

    even your doodles are great, glad!
    thanks for the help, if this is correct, im can rest in peace as i've done the same thing, ehehhe


    about the heigh, in City Of Greyhawk boxed set, theres a cool colored map, and the book said that it was draw by a flying wizard, so he could capture the feeling of the city :P
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    Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:52 am  

    I have seen a version of ToH where most of the traps consisted of teleporting/summoning various planer monsters instead ganking you. cant recall where I was it though.

    Personally Ive never played it, or DMed it but i sure as hell would love to try it. Even if Just for the giggles.
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