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    Canonfire :: View topic - AD&D 1e and/or 2e stats for Circle of Eight
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    AD&D 1e and/or 2e stats for Circle of Eight
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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    From: Charlotte, North Carolina

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    Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:35 pm  
    AD&D 1e and/or 2e stats for Circle of Eight

    I know I have run across the AD&D 1e and/or 2e stats for Circle of Eight, but I cannot remember where...

    Does anyone know where I could find these?

    Thanks,
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    Count Telemachus, Archmage of the Unicorn Conferderation
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    Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:33 pm  

    There are a couple of places:

    For 1st Edition; the back of the Rogue's Gallery has stats for Mordy, Tenser and Bigby (and though they aren't "Circle of Eight", it also has stats for "Citadel of Eight" members Robilar, Rigby and Serten).

    Also, the 1st Edition module WG 5 "Mordenakainen's Fantastic Adventure" has stats for Mordy and Bigby (and Yrag and Rigby).

    Note: WG5 reflects the PCs stats circa 560s CY; while the Rogue's Gallery is probably somwhere in the 570s.

    I'm also pretty sure their stats were probably in some old Dragon Magazine issues; but I have no ideas which ones; sorry!

    In 2nd Edition; there are several places to get stats for the Circle: the City of Greyhawk boxed set has all 9 of them (including Mordy); and these stats are re-printed in the "Vecna Lives" module.

    Updated stats for some of the Circle (Tenser, Jallarzi) and the "replacements" added to the Circle (Warnes, Alhamazad and Theodain) are in "The Return of the Eight" module; and some updated stats for members of the Cirlce (Otto, Jallarzi) are in the "Greyhawk, the Adventure Begins" sourcebook.

    Also, ex-Circle member Rary and Former Citadel member Robilar (or Bilaro if you buy into the bizarro-world-esque plot of the 3rd Edition "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk") have thier stats in the "Rary the Traitor" sourcebook/module.

    Finally, in the largely edition-less Living Greyhawk Gazeteer; stats are listed for the Circle; though, note carefully the discrepencies in levels and certain abilities in this book vs. "Greyhawk, the Adventure Begins"; though both are supposed to be in the same time-frame (591 CY).

    Personally, I like the stats in "Greyhawk Adventures" a little better; but then, I'm biased; I couldn't stand 3rd Edition and later material! (though the Gazeteer is Excellent!)

    I don't know if there was ever any "official" or even "semi-official" set of stats for the Circle for 3rd or 4th Edition; but I'm sure some one with much greater Greyhawk knowledge than me (like Rasgon or Cebrion or Smillian) will know the answer to this and point you in the right direction.

    Hope this helps!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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    Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:31 am  

    That most certainly does help! This is quite a comprehensive listing.

    I had Mordenkainen, Tenser, Rary, and Bigby; it is the others that are not as well published, so I will now be able to find them. Thank you very much!
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    Count Telemachus, Archmage of the Unicorn Conferderation
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:37 am  

    Mordenkainen's 3e stats were listed in one of the 3e books along with Eclavdra but I don't recall which one - possibly the Epic Level Handbook? Plus check out this month's Oerth journal!
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:53 am  

    A 3E Mordy statblock is in the Epic Level Handbook(ELH). Other are in Living Greyhwk Journal #0 (LGHJ#0). LGGaz has no statblock only short notes (ala human male Wiz20+.)

    3E Tenser was in a later Dungeon under a pseudonym. Mike Johnson rebuilt him here. That site also has fanmade 3E statblocks or notes on many NPCs.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:04 am  

    Mordenkainen, Eclavdra, and Robilar were all in the Epic Level Handbook. But that's third edition.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:35 am  

    True but they do give an idea of level progression for the npcs. It depends what year you want to play them if you want to be 'historically' accurate.

    I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't a side bar with some 4e stats for Mordenkainen in the Oerth Journal actually. We might never get an 'official' 4e version at this rate.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:36 am  

    As for 1e/ 2e stats...

    Circle of Eight Stats
    Here is what I have on those luminaries:
    From Rogues gallery I (1980):
    Bigby; (M13; Hp 42; S 11, I 17, W 16, D 18, C 15, Ch 10; AL N)
    Mordenkainen; (M16; Hp 61; S 10, I 18, W 12, D 17, C 17, Ch 18; AL N)
    Tenser; M14; Hp 56; S 10, I 16, W 11, D 16, C 16, Ch 18; AL LG)

    From Mordenkainen's fantastic adventure (1984):
    Bigby (M10; Hp 39; S 8, I 17, W 14, D 17, C 15, C 12; AL N)
    Mordenkainen (M12; Hp 52; S 10, I 18, W 15, D 17, C 17, C 18; AL N)

    From City of Greyhawk boxed set (FFF booklet) (1989):
    Bigby; (M18; Hp 46; S 9, I 17, W 15, D 17, C 15, Ch 12; AL N)
    Drawmij; (M16; Hp 44; S 7, I 18, W 17, D 16, C 15, Ch 9; AL N)
    Jallarzi; (M14; Hp 38; S 10, I 18, W 17, D 18, C 9, Ch 17; AL NG)
    Mordenkainen; (M20; Hp 66; S 10, I 18, W 15, D 17, C 17, Ch 18; AL N)
    Nystul; (M16; Hp 57; S 7, I 18, W 17, D 10, C 15, Ch 15; AL N)
    Otiluke; (M16; Hp 39; S 5, I 17, W 8, D 17, C 10, Ch 11; AL N)
    Otto; (Pr5/M14; Hp 45; S 16, I 17, W 15, D 7, C 15, Ch 16; AL N (NG)
    Rary; (M23; Hp 50; S 7, I 19, W 19, D 11, C 12, Ch 16; AL N)
    Tenser; (M20; Hp 60; S 10, I 17, W 11, D 16, C 16, Ch 18; AL LG(N)

    From Vecna lives (1990):
    Same stats as FFF booklet except Nystul has only 45 hit points.
    From Rary the traitor (1992):
    Rary; (M24; Hp 52; S 7, I 19, W 19, D 11, C 12, Ch 16; AL NE)

    From Return of the Eight:
    Mordenkainen; (M26; Hp 72; S 10, I 18, W 15, D 17, C 17, Ch 18; AL N)
    Bigby; M18; Hp 46; S 9, I 17, W 15, D 17, C 15, Ch 12; AL N)
    Drawmij; (M16; Hp 44; S 7, I 18, W 17, D 16, C 15, Ch 9; AL N)
    Nystul; (M16; Hp 57; S 7, I 18, W 17, D 10, C 15, Ch 15; AL N)
    Otto; (Pr5/M14; Hp 45; S 16, I 17, W 15, D 7, C 15, Ch 16; AL N (NG)
    Tenser; (M21; Hp 41; S 10, I 17, W 11, D 16, C 14, Ch 18; AL LG)
    Jallarzi Salavarian; (M14; Hp 38; S 10, I 18, W 17, D 18, C 9, Ch 17; AL NG)
    Warnes Starcoat; (M20; Hp 54; S 14, I 20, W 17, D 18, C 15, Ch 17; AL N)
    Theodain Eraison; (M17; Hp 35; S 15, I 18, W 15, D 17, C 13, Ch 16; AL CN)
    Alhamazad the wise; (M19; Hp 39; S 7, I 18, W 17, D 13, C 8, Ch 14; AL LN)

    If you wanted a 4e version of Mordenkainen by 4e standards take his current level and multiply times 1.5 the curve is literally set that high where lvl 30 = lvl 20. I tinkered with a 4e version for 2 weeks working to get the system where it needed to be. After such a time I scrapped it. It wasn't anywhere near what he even was in the ELH. Further, as play "ends" at 30th level according to those rules, I saw no point in going on.

    If you're going to play 4e, kill off everyone and start over. Why do you think they did that with FR. *sigh*
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:23 pm  

    Lol - my campaign has converted to 4e seamlessly and instead of upping the pc levels, I lowered them from 11-14 down to level 10. Pcs feel a bit more powerful in 4e apart from wizards and clerics being reigned in as regards to combat spells somewhat.

    The gods tend to be level 33-36 solos so 'mortals' will come in under that. Level 30 isn't the new level 20 either. Level 20 is the new level 20 - levels 21+ are epic levels, which have just been stretched out and some monsters have been adjusted to become more epic in scope.

    I think Graz'zt is a level 33 solo so I'd pitch Iggwilv in at a level 30 so and Mordenkainen can probably be a level 27 solo in his later incarnation. I think Iuz is probably a level 24-26 elite so Modenkainen might even be able to take him down one on one but that isn't his style, plus Iuz is surrounded by powerful bodyguards. Bulding them to reflect the flavour of their earlier incarnations is the challenge...
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:17 am  

    Sorry 4e just isn't my flavour. I prefer Vancian style magic the reason the spells were big is b/c of the things sacrificed to cast them. I didn't see spellcasters as needing to be reigned in much, melee however was getting ridiculous from what I saw. blech.

    However, if you can make it work in your campaigns more power to ya. =)
    I'm just glad I keep files like that around so when ppl ask I can make em smile. Happy
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    Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:16 am  

    Yes there have been pros and cons for each edition. I was never a massive fan of the vancian system to start with, switching the optional channeling rules when 2e spells and magic came out. Plus I really struggled to convert my 2e human dual classed shadow mage (rogue) to 3e. I complied with all the 1e/2e rules for changing class and I even used the optional 1e rules for zero level characters when training to be a wizard and 3e stitched me up so my spell-casting was neutered by my multiclassed status.

    My character has been converted beautifully to a 4e shadar-kai (fluffed as a corrupted human) infernal warlock with rogue multiclass. Our group has also taken to the cooperative combat style quite well. Our grey elf fighter-mage-thief (also an arcane trickster in his 3e incarnation) has yet to play. The way wizards have been scaled back in combat with far fewer spell choices might freak him out but he still has massive power with ritual casting so we'll see.

    Personally I was starting to struggle with higher level monsters in 3e. They took ages to draft, had mutliple abilities I'd never use, and often fall to save or die effects before they had a chance to shine. I'm finding 4e easier to DM at higher levels so far...

    I will say though that I do still rely upon 1e, 2e, and 3e stat blocks to try and convert the 'flavour' of pre-exisiting npcs.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:31 pm  

    Well, as I've allready stated numerous times, I can't stand 3rd Edition; and while 4th doesn't seem as bad; it's way too 'war-gamey/mini-centric' for my tastes....something about seeing every stat in terms of how many squares it effects just really rubs me the wrong way...but to each thier own! Happy

    I did have one quick question for Duicarthan though; where are the stats for Mordy, Bigby, Drawmij, etc. in Return of the Eight? In the back it lists Tenser, Alhmazad, Theodain, and Warnes; and has Jallarzi's stats as well; but I don't see the others anywhere...particularly not a 26th Level Mordy. Just curious....
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:13 pm  

    Since the thread deals with 1e/2e stats...

    Despite the constant reassurance from the authors within the books of the time that stats are less important the role-playing and most PCs should expect one or two stats above 15 at most. It is hard not to notice that when the authors translate their beloved characters a lot of 17-18s seem to be present and non-existant are the 5-7 stats mentioned within the books.

    Personally I often found the flawed characters 5-7 much more interesting to play then the superstat 17-18. Guess I believed the authours when it was about fun rather then stats.

    Just saying....
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:07 am  

    You make a strong point, JHSII. This is one reason I've finally (and not at all easily) come around to liking the idea of using point-buys for statting characters. However, I just don't see the need for some of the more intricate systems mentioned in various rulebooks.

    For my games, I usually just assign a certain number of points and tell the players to distribute them however they want - with the proviso, of course, that they have to stick within "reasonable" limits (no 1st level wizards with 25 STR in my campaigns!).

    Doing this allows me to decide how weak or powerful I want the characters to be (in a broad sense, at least), and I can make adjustments for the type of players and style of play by simply giving more or fewer points.

    Of course, such a system won't work if you have players who insist on min-maxing, but I don't let that sort of player into my games if I can possibly help it.

    To stat out the Co8 with such a system I'd recommend giving each NPC about 75 points and then adjusting for level (if using 3.Xe) or 80 points if using one of the older editions. That should go pretty far toward making them rather powerful and exceptional characters.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:36 am  

    maxvale76 wrote:

    I did have one quick question for Duicarthan though; where are the stats for Mordy, Bigby, Drawmij, etc. in Return of the Eight? In the back it lists Tenser, Alhmazad, Theodain, and Warnes; and has Jallarzi's stats as well; but I don't see the others anywhere...particularly not a 26th Level Mordy. Just curious....


    To be honest, I do not know. I found this reference guide on the web a long while back, right around the time Return of the Eight came out. Though I guess, it makes sense b/c Mordy is lvl 27 in the ELH 3e. *shrug*
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    Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:20 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    For my games, I usually just assign a certain number of points and tell the players to distribute them however they want - with the proviso, of course, that they have to stick within "reasonable" limits (no 1st level wizards with 25 STR in my campaigns!).

    Of course, such a system won't work if you have players who insist on min-maxing, but I don't let that sort of player into my games if I can possibly help it.


    To be honest bubbagump; I am not a fan of point buys because their must be an overwhelming urge to mini-max no matter the foritude of the players as that +1 for one more point is too much of a temptation. Everyone knows the "point thresholds" and then the players and DMs end up in a laughable conversation where the players explain they want Str 16 - not for the extra point of damage but to explain the extra inch of bicep in his drawing of him while the DM nods and pretends he is clueless about the real reason. After all their is a reason so many magical items raise stats out there.

    But most of all; it removes the sheer randomness from the characters created. People often end up in ruts and seek to recreate certain stereotypes. I use the random rolls to avoid the 26th MU I have played in a row syndrome. Although I enjoy the 4d6 arraign as desired method sometimes the fabulous wizard or conan warrior just isn't there. See the rolls as an opportunity to be a thief you haven't tried in years or create a cleric with serious attitude. If the dice really like you ask yourself - should I give up the chance to play a pladin - never tried it - to be another conan-type for the hundredth time.

    See the random rolls as a chance to stretch your gaming experience don't box yourself into certain stats and certain classes.

    But that's just me Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:41 pm  

    Yes, that sort of thing definitely happens. However, with my longest-running group I don't have to worry about it. I can certainly understand how it would be a problem in many, many cases, though.

    And as far as stretching ourselves as gamers, after 30+ years I and the others in that group have progressed to the point where we prefer to stretch ourselves in other ways. Stats, whether low or high, rarely make much difference in our games. My other groups, though, are an entirely different story.

    Another reason I like to use point-buys is that I sometimes enjoy running one-shots that vary from my usual gaming style. I generally detest ultra-high-level "god" campaigns, but from time to time I get a hankering to run that kind of scenario. On the flipside, I sometimes get a hankering to run scenarios for terribly weak characters as well. I also run the occasional one-shot for monstrous characters, non-adventuring character types, and that sort of thing, too. It keeps me from getting in a rut.

    And when I run games for people I don't know well and that I don't intend to stick with long-term, I find point-buys help the players to feel that everything is "fair". When I owned the LGS I ran lots of instructional and promotional scenarios in order to promote business, and I found new players were encouraged if they weren't saddled with unexpectedly weak characters and if the games weren't dominated by unexpectedly strong PCs.

    In other words, point-buys are a tool I use to achieve a particular effect and nothing more.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:44 am  

    The way I've been doing it for a very long time is pretty standard, roll 4d6 for each stat, take the best 3 and generally things work out pretty good. When I adopted 3rd ed, I added in that the hero should have atleast a +0 modifier. In the years since I have noted that in spite of whinging and whining at the minimum result initially, most of my players that rolled such mediocre stats have risen to unprecedented levels of popularity in the setting precisely because the common folk see them as one of their own. They seem very proud of their character's survivability.

    As far as the Circle goes. I like to think that their stats are so high because they are the stuff of legend and leave it at that...

    Damien.
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