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    Canonfire :: View topic - Buying magical items?
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    Buying magical items?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 21, 2010
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    Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:59 am  
    Buying magical items?

    How do feel about buying and selling magical items? I have been searching on this topic and I found this:
    http://worldofgreyhawk.net/greyhawk/gods/boccob.htm

    I must say that I strongly disagree with this. I usually care about canon but in this case I really don't care. I have read the rules about buying and selling magical items from DMG and I'm fully aware that Core rules allow this kind of business, but in my opinion clergy of Boccob is against it.

    Clergy of Boccob are guardians of mystic lore. They may be stone-hearted and uncaring, but they respect magic. And dealing with magical items like furniture is not respect. Idea of unenlightened fighter wielding magical sword makes them uneasy and even though they don't care about good and evil, they do care about proper use of magical items to their fullest potential and that their owners understand them (and if possible, love them like they do).

    Servants of The Uncaring use their influence to suppress magic item business, "redirecting" wizards and sorcerers to use their skills of magical crafting in scientific/creative/holy way rather than being just ordinary craftsmen. And clergy of Boccob is the ultimate authority of arcane casters.

    So I allow minor magical items to be sold and bought, but no magical shops. Medium magical items are heavily overpriced. Major magical items are ridicolously overpriced.

    How do handle this kind of magical item business in your Greyhawk world?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    From: Modena, Italy

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    Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:25 am  

    I am with you, same point of view.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 26, 2002
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    From: Canada

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    Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:35 pm  

    One thing I truly hate about 3E and subsequent editions of the game is how magic is naturally assumed to be a tradeable commodity and PCs should have a number of magical items for play balance. What is supposed to be rare, mysterious and precious becomes yet another cheap common piece of merchandise.

    If I had a campaign, I'd simply change the rules for magic item creation as they apply to PCs and NPCs alike. Magic items simply can't be created until you reach the 1E/2E levels that allow you to do these things. You can only brew potions or scribe scrolls at specific levels, for instance, and you can't create a permanent item until you reach 18th level and gain access to the permanency spell.

    Those magic items which can be purchased are almost always limited-use ones. You can buy healing potions, or oils of impact and sharpness (and these are always a hot commodity when monsters that can be only hurt by magic weapons are much more common than the magic weapons themselves are), wands and scrolls more rarely, but more powerful items almost never. Non-permanent items like potions and scrolls aren't as difficult for wizards to produce in sizeable quantities, and indeed many wizard guilds brew potions and scribe scrolls as an important revenue stream.

    But if you were to enter into a wizards' guild and ask to buy an enchanted sword or shield, you'd be laughed out of the building by the wizards...if you weren't blasted on the spot for wasting the mages' time.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
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    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

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    Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:50 pm  

    I can see at least some rationale for suggesting that Boccob's followers would be eager to sell magic items. If they are dedicated to preserving magical lore, then it follows that one of the best ways to do so is to put it in the hands of as many people as possible.

    But, that doesn't mean I'm in favor of magic shops. In fact, I detest the idea. With that said, I can see how circumstances might move the occasional caster to make and sell magical equipment - money is as tight in my campaigns as magic, and so it's not that unusual to find spellcasters of significant power who need the cash. Also, since acquiring magic often entails certain risks, it's not that unusual to find casters who have been permanently debilitated and must lower themselves to selling magic to obtain what they need to continue their researches.

    HOWEVER, I still feel that magic items shouldn't be readily available for sale, and I strongly disapprove of 3.xE's insistance that such equipment is necessary for play. In my campaigns only lower-level potions and scrolls can be bought in shops, and even then they're not all that common. Only on rare occasions can other minor magic items be found for sale, and even then it's usually because my players have gotten stuck or have had a bad run of luck and need a little boost. Powerful magic items are never for sale, especially through magic shops, and at best must be commissioned at great cost from extremely powerful spellcasters - usually involving some sort of dangerous quest or mission for the caster in question.

    And I agree with CruelSummerLord: 3.xE makes magic item crafting far too easy.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:19 pm  

    Rules don't make magic item crafting too easy, only DM's do. There is a reason for those weird ingredients, which you may not be able to just pick up at the local market. Good luck getting that bottled *Beholder Fart* for the Wand of Stinking Cloud. Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:22 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Rules don't make magic item crafting too easy, only DM's do. There is a reason for those weird ingredients, which you may not be able to just pick up at the local market. Good luck getting that bottled *Beholder Fart* for the Wand of Stinking Cloud. Wink


    Thank you for reminding me about this one. I'm ashamed to say that as a former 2E player I had forgotten all about "roots of mountains" and all this stuff.

    So it's safe to assume that the prices of magical items entail the cost of fantastic ingredients, such as ~1000 gp's for "Beholder fart" which is a fair price. But where to get it? Can you just buy it just like that? I don't think so...

    Hmmm, suddenly magic feels like magic again :) And I do agree that creating magical items is far too easy in these new editions... Rulewise...
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:32 am  

    My views on magic items, as a DM, is that there are those that attract "trouble" and those that do not. For instance, many pc's may carry a +1 sword, but due to the laws of abstraction, may not really know it is magic. There are a ton of ways to role-play that kind of thing.

    Magic Items that create "trouble" are those that simply cannot be explained as something mundane. Most wondrous items, though listed in the DMG (usually) are still mostly unique. The knowledge to create them is as guarded a secret as are most higher levels spells. I do not necessarily play that there is a moratorium on magic, but in my Greyhawk it is a difficult tradition to pass on and there is an extremely limited supply of people who even care about magic at all.

    Magic Items are incorporated into the progression of a 3E character. Now, to me this means that you are expected to use the treasure tables as presented in the reading on the monsters you fight. Eventually you will come across plenty of useful stuff.

    Now, as far as selling, trading, or buying new magic items, that is where I usually get stingy.

    Selling a magic item is no problem, at least in getting its maximum value. There is a threshold of cost where the difference between getting paid and an attempt at its theft are fairly close, but for the most part magic items are easy to sell in places such as Greyhawk City.

    As for buying magical items, I do a couple things. First, when I create or use a city, I roll what magic items are there at all based on NPC levels, various guilds, etc. They are there from the start and only change when items are sold. When a player asks me for a magic item, it comes down to that player researching information about magic items he may find useful, and his exact request is translated into his character coming into the desire on his own via research. Wizards usually have an easier time at this. Being knowledgeable is part of the class, to me.

    So after the knowledge is gained, the PC then either has to track down supposed whereabouts, or pay to have it made wherever that is possible.

    I have had the same player hand down a magical sword from father to son from one campaign to the next.

    I believe magic items can be used to enrich both character and story.

    A good example is that my party recently slew a dragon. They found a randomly rolled Orb of Storms in its hoard. They, upon discovering its use, knew they had to hide it so that no one knew they had it. They also came to the conclusion that if word of the dragon's death spread, as it would, than anyone who tracked the orb to the lair and was deterred by the dragon might come looking.

    They basically buried it in a lead box for a long time.

    Later down the road, they entered a conflict between a local Baron trying to dominate their hometown. They pulled out the Orb and used it as a deterrent to dissuade the Baron from his schemes.

    That is the most recent thing, though.

    Still, the idea of magic items being bought and sold in stores like any commodity is ludicrous. Sleight of Hand just became the best skill in the game.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
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    From: Charlotte, North Carolina

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    Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:32 pm  

    Let the Clerics sell magic items in some cases, but there should be a test undertaken to see if those purchasing the items are worthy of the magic, the more powerful the item, the tougher the test, and tests may prove fatal.

    This will dissuade PCs from attempting to purchase magic items unless they really need them.

    It may not be wise to allow the sale of major items at all, and medium items would only be sold to characters on a mission which directly advances the agenda of Boccob, which being "The Uncaring" will not happen often if at all. Perhaps if magic itself was threatened...

    Be careful though, if too much magic can be purchased it takes away from the special talents of the characters that can create magic items...

    Just my 2 cents...
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    Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:38 am  

    I let players buy most potions freely. I also allow them to commission the creation of items from local guilds (dependent on the level of the local wizards). I might also encourage them to see out particular wizards, clerics, or guilds for more specialist items.

    Generally though I might seed a particular item into an adventure or have an npc gift them an item at the end. Magic Marts are a no go.

    In some ways 4e offers an improved system in that anybody with the right ritual can make any item if they are the right level but it's too mechanical - it needs a DM to add flavour and time restrictions. Monsters don't need magic items so you only give them one if you really want it to be a theme or if you want the players to get it. Item bloat seems to be a thing of the past.

    Further, you can circumnavigate the need to perpetually upgrade items by ticking the box for inherent bonuses in the builder - this grants the players free bonuses based on the items they'd be assumed to possess within the maths of the game. It means you can focus on the special properties of items instead of mechanical bonuses and you don't have to upgrade your +1 flaming dagger for a +2 flaming dagger.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:38 am  

    I am okay with 3rd edition's system for making magic items, for the most part. However, imo, they have the costs way wrong. I look at magic items as a commodity based on their price: If a +1 sword is just over 2kgp, and a nice house is also 2kgp, then it must be as easy to buy a +1 sword as it is a nice house (depending on where you are). While these item are so expensive that your average day laborer earning a few silvers per day will never own one, adventurers acquire silly amounts of wealth in 3rd ed.

    Since I don't like "Magic Marts" (the Living Greyhawk term for being able to run to the corner store to buy magic items), I'm in favor of either jacking the costs of non-consumable magic items way up OR giving out less treasure. If you do the former, you end up with PCs with a lot of wealth that they can use to build a keep (like they should be thinking about by 9th level anyhow) and their magic items are what they find while adventuring (i.e., human bad guys shouldn't have tons of stuff on them either). If you do the latter, then tipping the bar wench 1 gp makes you seem silly rich, but they can perhaps save up for a favored item if they find one to buy. I think there's a happy medium for each DM based on their own views of campaign balance. I personally prefer low-magic settings where a platinum piece gets the notice of the local thieves.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:54 pm  

    All you have to do is to control the availability, not alter the cost.

    There are plenty of workers who can build plenty of nice houses, but there are not plenty of wizards to make plenty of +1 swords. It may cost you a good amount of cash just to travel around to find a wizard who is either willing to make you a +1 sword, or who has one for sale. Likewise, if a character is creating a +1 sword, the material may only cost 2,000 g.p., but that is only if the character has those materials on hand. If they don't have the materials then they may have to go and get them, and getting information as to where these materials are and then either going to get them or have somebody bring them to you incurs its own additional costs.

    That's how they getcha. Wink
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    Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:51 pm  

    I am stubbornly against it. If there is more than a +1 anything below level 5 characters in a campaign, unbalance takes over. +2 equivs around level 7 etc...

    A careful subject this is. A DM must maintain the balance of the die rolls through the potency of magic items their PCs receive. Very fragile.

    Buying and selling? A for sure no-no.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:02 pm  

    I completely share your sentiments but I think there is a necessary caution involved.

    If you use CR levels to set encounter difficulties you have to remember that the structure of the challenges assumes a certain wealth of magic items. If you clamp down too far the challenges can be too tough.


    This is not the only concern of course but it is a genuine one. I also don't think it is wrong for players to like magic toys and get them on occasion.


    Sigurd
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:15 pm  

    I appreciate all the concerns being shared here, but . . .

    Example: What if a high level party were to "conquer" a great Red Dragon? Surely such a dragon is going to have more than one +1 sword? (Not to mention even more powerful swords) Confused

    Any character I play is going to want to "sell" these swords (or the equivalent of such items). Who has need for more than one +1 item/weapon, except to sell them?

    I think there would need to be limits to the gaming "rule" you would suggest.
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    Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:19 am  

    I'd be more inclined to liaise with the players to find out what items they would like to complement their characters and seed tailor-made items into the dragons lair and/or items that can act as plot hooks to your next adventure e.g. an heirloom from a nearby kingdom, a cursed item, or a map.
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:51 pm  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    I'd be more inclined to liaise with the players . . . and seed tailor-made items into the dragons lair . . .


    Spoken like a true DM! Happy

    Still, I like to add just a little "realism" into my game. For instance, such a Dragon would obviously have "eaten" many a hero in it's time and thus be in possession of said heroes' armor and weapons. After all, a "Red" never gives up -- or gives away -- anything it acquires. Wink
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:47 pm  

    I always channel the buying/selling of magic items through the Guild of Wizardry. Only healing potions and some low-level items can be found outside of it (churches or curio shops).

    Just my 2 iron drabs...

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