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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk - My Likes & Dislikes
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    Greyhawk - My Likes & Dislikes
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 11, 2007
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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:10 pm  
    Greyhawk - My Likes & Dislikes

    I am sure I will ramble, and make this a long drawn out, long winded .... bla bla post and for that I am sorry in advance.

    edit: My group plays a mix of house rules mostly 2E rules, but we also use 1E and Unearthed Arcana as well depending on what we need. We never went past 2E rules just out of dislike for 3.0+

    I have played this grand game for like ..... "ever" ... well maybe not that long, pretty much since the game released hehe. I have played in most of the campaign worlds ... Dragonlance (huge fan of that world but it is just too story driven) Forgotten Realms (never could get into that world that much, it was just to cluttered, and unorganized) Ravenloft (I like most of what it is, and its good for side adventures) and yes I have gamed in Greyhawk.

    Out of all the worlds, I just feel more at home with this world, I guess ever since Mr Gygax DMed myself and several others in a mini adventure at Dragon Con many years ago, I have just had a special place in my heart for this world.

    I do not know the history of this world like I see alot here talking about huge Migrations from the Sea of Dust and the bloodlines of the Kingdom of Greyhawk dating back to the dinosaur days etc etc, I hope to one day learn all of this but I love the feel of the world.

    I do however have issues with it. It seems a little cluttered, too many nations and kingdoms and little room for wild lands ... unexplored lands etc etc.

    I had in the past thought of taking the world and changing it to a feel that I liked. Although in doing so, I do understand that changing this world as I wanted to would be considered blasphemy by many. I also prefer the world "post" Greyhawk Wars which I am sure many would also consider blasphemy.

    My idea which is still way way unrefined and organized was more along the lines of the wars took a heavy toll on the World of Greyhawk. Most of the world was left in ruins because of the War.

    The two primary good nations left were to be Nyrond and Furyondy with the City of Greyhawk becoming a city state more or less annexing the lands around it to handle the huge influx of refugees from the destroyed nations.

    The two primary evils would be Iuz to the North and to the East it would be the Great Kingdom which I had planned to leave mostly intact and at the height of its power.

    I had planned to shake of the number of gods and shrink the numbers of those down as well. The Dwarves and Elves etc etc would retreat into the cities and close there borders.

    The west would be overrun by humanoids and giants guided by the dark arms of the Drow.

    That sort of thing.

    Would I be strung up around here for having those sorta of thoughts in turning my campaign world into that? I am just not happy with how the world is set up, it just seemed cluttered to me (cringes and ducks out of the way).

    Like I said, that is just the basics without really thinking it out really hard.

    Anyways I will end this thing but just thought would ask you guys what you thought of this and how bad it would be to discuss this style campaign world around here especially since I would not want to offend or disrespect folks at this Website.

    /hug
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:23 pm  

    From my point of view. Your the DM, it's your campaign, as long as you and your players are having fun, go for what ever make's your game FUN !!! Smile
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:08 pm  

    Yeah, I treat GH the same here. Pretty much nothing in canon matters until I have introduced it. For all my players know everything east of Greyhawk City unexplored wilderness until I say otherwise.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:09 pm  

    Might be this place is is relaxed enough for me to fit in
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:49 pm  

    Here is a quick way to find that out.

    Which Mordenkainen is better? Head full of hair or bald?
    Forum Moderator

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:13 pm  

    Greyhawk is indeed cluttered in the Flanaess proper. I think Gygax wanted this when he was setting it up to be a backdrop for his pet war-gaming projects to go along with his Castle Greyhawk game. The wilderness is of course on the fringes of the map. A key to enjoying GH is the past. This setting is more Forgotten Realms than FR is in my opinion. If you'd rather play in a Greyhawk that is more wide open you could try the Migration Era that you mentioned. This is just after the Sea of dust is made and before the Great Kingdom ends up ruling the whole map. Plenty of wilds and old Flan/Elven lands. Etc.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:38 am  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Here is a quick way to find that out.

    Which Mordenkainen is better? Head full of hair or bald?

    Bald of course, I saw a really cool pic of him as a bald guy, he looked really mean hehe


    as for the timeline .... I like the post war timeline simply because in my opinion it changed and shaped the world in a very cool way, made the world darker, more sinister, made it so all hope looked lost in a lot of ways and it puts the power back into the players characters hands to try to save what good is still left and fight against an evil that appears almost to great to defeat.

    I do not know alot about the migrations and the ancient histories, I do plan (in time) to learn and I am more familiar with the current timeline plus it is fun reshaping a world like this, more or less, it gives you the shot to add new and exciting thigs.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:17 am  

    Damaja wrote:
    chaoticprime wrote:
    Here is a quick way to find that out.

    Which Mordenkainen is better? Head full of hair or bald?

    Bald of course, I saw a really cool pic of him as a bald guy, he looked really mean hehe


    as for the timeline .... I like the post war timeline simply because in my opinion it changed and shaped the world in a very cool way, made the world darker, more sinister, made it so all hope looked lost in a lot of ways and it puts the power back into the players characters hands to try to save what good is still left and fight against an evil that appears almost to great to defeat.

    I do not know alot about the migrations and the ancient histories, I do plan (in time) to learn and I am more familiar with the current timeline plus it is fun reshaping a world like this, more or less, it gives you the shot to add new and exciting thigs.


    Well, that's all I had to know.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:50 am  
    Re: Greyhawk - My Likes & Dislikes

    Damaja wrote:

    Would I be strung up around here for having those sorta of thoughts in turning my campaign world into that? ... [snip] just thought would ask you guys what you thought of this and how bad it would be to discuss this style campaign world around here especially since I would not want to offend or disrespect folks at this Website. ... [snip] Might be this place is is relaxed enough for me to fit in


    Not only is Canonfire laid back enough for you to do this kind of thing, but, we even have a great place for it! In the forums is the Greyhawk - Heresy! sub-forum, *and* in the Articles section, there is the Heretic's Nest. So, not only do we like this stuff, but we encourage it!! Shocked

    Feel free to post in the General Discussion, or in the places where all of the heretics hang out! Have fun, and post often!

    P.S. - Mordenkainen is much cooler bald, and I even illustrated him that way in Issue #25 of the Oerth Journal ezine, but there's still a sense of nostalgia about him with an appearnce of the more stereotypical wizard with longer hair.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:52 am  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Well, that's all I had to know.

    So ... this is bad?

    Icarus wrote:
    P.S. - Mordenkainen is much cooler bald, and I even illustrated him that way in Issue #25 of the Oerth Journal ezine, but there's still a sense of nostalgia about him with an appearance of the more stereotypical wizard with longer hair.

    The picture I remember the most is the one I think I saw in a Living Greyhawk PDF I have tucked away somewhere. hmm maybe I need to look a pic of him up with hair hehe
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:59 am  

    I actually do not care, haha. But, yeah, 3.0 rolled around and suddenly Mordenkainen goes all Ming the Merciless.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:16 am  

    Well, I never moved past 2.0 but the pic I saw as him bald was pretty tight hehe
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:22 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk - My Likes & Dislikes

    Damaja wrote:
    I do however have issues with it. It seems a little cluttered, too many nations and kingdoms and little room for wild lands ... unexplored lands etc etc.


    I don't agree with that part. Note that the population in these nations is really thin, a tiny fraction of Europe's during the Middle Ages. Even the largest nations are going to be largely monster-haunted wilderness, with unexplored ruins and places humans haven't set foot in for centuries.

    But sure, we're happy to hear about your alternate takes on the setting.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:23 pm  

    He probably had a mid-life crisis, bought a new black dragon to ride around on, shaved his head to cover up his hereditary baldness, and got a twenty-year old girlfriend.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:46 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk - My Likes & Dislikes

    rasgon wrote:
    I don't agree with that part. Note that the population in these nations is really thin, a tiny fraction of Europe's during the Middle Ages. Even the largest nations are going to be largely monster-haunted wilderness, with unexplored ruins and places humans haven't set foot in for centuries.


    I don't completely agree with this. Yes, there's plenty of ruins and monsters, mostly underground or in impassable terrain I'd wager. To be sure I did a quickie map to illustrate. I am using Living Greyhawk's all-canon inclusive map and a non-scientific yet conservative approach, by which all towns, keeps, etc have a 'patrol area' of 1 hex around them (highly conservative as I said). I gave major cities like GH or Rel Astra 2 hex radius patrols. As you can see the Flanaess is pretty cluttered. Of course I got tired on the fringe areas, but you see what I mean. Now if you just applied that system to the original Darlene map with its scant major settlements you'd have a less cluttered area yes, but what is the maximum 'safe zone' around these settlements truly? Note I didn't take roads or trade routes into account. It's highly developed no matter what real world density figures say.

    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:21 pm  

    I don't agree that most towns would have a whole 30-mile hex around them that could be considered "cleared." Not remotely that much. I'm not sure what you mean by "conservative," but it looks to me like you're choosing to err on the side of making the Flanaess a lot safer than I would. Even roads and trade routes are subject to random encounters - bandits, monsters, and the like.

    Here's an interesting blog post showing the difference between a typical Greyhawk hex and the real world in Medieval times.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:21 am  

    Good blog reference. I maintain however that the LG map I've utilized in this thread is supported by that blog post's findings. All the red 'cleared' areas I've marked are the urban and castle areas. We obviously don't see all the farming thorps and villages that support the towns with food. And coming from someone who lives in a city with 30 miles of farmland dotted with villages in all directions, sure GH may not be safe from human/oid predators, but I consider those areas of the central Flanaess band 'developed' land not wilderness.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:29 am  

    Everyone has opinions and don't get me wrong, in no way am I saying anyone here is wrong or that I am right. It's just the way I feel and I plan to try to do something different with my Greyhawk once I really sit down and start working on it. I want to make it a dark, sinister, mostly evil dominated world where the fate of alot of things rests in the players hands.

    That sorta thing
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:33 am  

    I'm with Rasgon on this one.

    What's the circumference of a 30 mile hex? 30 miles is a goodly distance for a fast moving cavalry unit. As infantry, in the 82nd Airborne, we were required to do 5 to 7 miles a day with full packs -- twenty miles was called a "forced march."

    So, how often is any one spot within the hex actually "searched?"

    I would imagine that any metropolitan area able to search such a grid with any great amount of frequency would have one heck of a military -- as in large -- with lots of troops to spare for patrol -- reasonably cavalry.

    I don't see any place in Greyhawk that meets that criteria except the national capitals and other such large cities.

    For example; How far is it from Greyhawk to Dyvers? How often do caravans get waylaid on that road in your campaign? How heavily do you think Greyhawk and Dyvers patrol such an important trade route?

    Just my opinion though. Cool
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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:22 am  

    Giving me something to ponder for sure.
    But ... there are some areas in Greyhawk, (in my opinion) that are just bad areas, areas where you never really anything about, places that if they vanished noone would really notice hehe + certain places I simply dislike so I dunno yet which route I will go with it.

    Whichever route I take, it is going to be alot of fun getting back into the game especially the World of Greyhawk.


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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:03 pm  

    In discussing the “security zones” around major settlements, I think we are taking a very limited approach by measuring it as simply the speed of a “patrol, men” from the random encounter table. The outlying farms and villages actually form part of the security network around the bigger population centers in a synergistic fashion. While the village militia may not be able to stand up to the orc warband, they can report their presence. Even if the village is wiped out, the fact that it was destroyed provides information to the regional authorities. A patrol (at least a good one) is not going to be fast moving, but rather methodical, visiting each village along its route to talk with the local leaders and visit the taverns to find out what is going on (as well as to get a drink or two). As a village grows, it sprouts hamlets that in turn grow and set up their own suburbs. In a few generations, this inkblot effect could very well cover the Flanneasses.

    As for Mystic-Scholars’ anecdote about the 82nd (Hooah), the irony is that modern military equipment is much heavier and bulkier to carry than in the age of muscle power. I was regularly hauling 120+ lbs up mountains in Afghanistan (and for more than seven miles, but that is the difference between a Marine and soldier), but that included not only my weapons and body armor, but ammunition for the mortar, my radio, batteries, and a full day of food and water. A Greyhawk patrol would carry their weapons and armor, maybe a some bread and cheese, and a water bottle, which they would fill from whatever clean-looking stream they came upon. They would most likely arrange their schedule so that they would spend the night in the settlements they visited, which would further help them police the area, and provide a visible presence. If they did have to provide camping gear and the like, they would likely have a mule accompany them, much as the Romans had one for every eight soldiers.

    As far as the depth of the settled area around a city, it would depend on the population. It was not cost effective to move a wagon load of grain much more than twenty miles over even the best of roads, so that could be an argument to limit the expanse of the settled zones. However, G. Gygax’s was either a very skilled, or a very lucky speculative cartographer and demographer. Most of his major settlement, you will note (and certainly almost all of the ones with more than 25,000 people) are on a navigable waterway, which was how any large medieval metropolis (such as Paris) was fed. The Free City itself is on a major river, along which there are farms for leagues in every direction.

    Damja, I never went beyond 2E myself except to get story ideas. When an NPCs statistics take up more than an entire 8X11 page, there is just far too much going on. If you are looking for wild lands amidst all of the settlement, I think the forests provide it, as hsitorically, outcasts hid in them (and not just the nice ones like Robin Hood...)
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:07 pm  

    I think a network of settlements could well synergetically blanket the Flanaess, but won't as long as it retains its current population density (approximately that of the Siberian steppe, according to the above link). The issue, as I see it, isn't if it's possible to provide security for a 30 mile hex, but whether it makes sense to do so in a region that's mostly wilderness, which applies to most hexes in the Flanaess, forested or not. The blog I linked to tries to make an argument that a fantasy world *should* be more densely populated than the Flanaess, which is certainly arguable, but if you'd rather see a Flanaess that's less civilized and more full of monsters and mysteries, dragons and ruins than roads and villages, that's more like what Gygax designed. He designed a world whose population is a tiny fragment of medieval Europe's, where settlements are appropriately few and far between. There's certainly room for settlements not on the map, but not very many unless you drastically increase the amount of people availlable to put in them. While the map of the Flanaess looks like it's completely divided into nation-states, the amount of territory, say, Keoland claims isn't much like what it actually controls. Verbobonc is one of the more peaceful and settled regions, yet a horde of elemental evil could form right under the noses of several good-aligned nations. The same could have happened virtually anywhere on the continent. Whether the hex is forested, mountainous, or plains, a DM should feel free to insert petty monstrous nations, lost tribes, or anything else imagination can conjure up outside the relatively small island of farms and streets that recognizes the human or demihuman monarch.
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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:38 pm  

    I never figured out the population density, but what you say makes sense. I would assume the best farmland would be settled first, and the more marginal land would be slowly brought under cultivation.

    I think when we played Grewyhawk, I just assumed the land was more densely populated. There was still significant space and wild land between settlements, but I just saw the nations as more settled, not necessarily peaceful, but a place where ones guard could be let down a little. Humanoid tribes and rapacious monsters would not last long, or would have to be particulalry clever to spend much time in a country, unless they were in the hill, mountains, or forests. However bandits, and those who could blend into the populace would be a problem. I kind of used feeling that Follet had in Pillars of the Earth.

    Playing off the idea of isolated tribes offers a few encounter possibilities, if only for a little (dark) humor. Hans von Luck had an interesting anecdote along these lines in his autobiography. During Barbarossa (1941), his recon unit drove into a Russian village in the middle of the steppe. He got out, and spoke to some of the villagers to get the lay of the land. At the end of the conversation, the village headman said something like, "You seem like nice Germans, but you understand that we hope the Tsar beats you." Von Luck did not know how to explain that there had not been a Tsar for over twenty years.
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    Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:45 am  

    Hello Damaja;

    I have some similiar views to you: I am happily stuck in 2E and have flat out hated all of the 3E stuff and view the 4E stuff as basically an entirely different game....a sort of World of Warcraft on paper/board game with a very light role-playing fluff coating.

    I LOVE Greyhawk; enjoyed Dragonlance for the first two trilogies (Chronicles and Legends) and never really got into Forgotten Realms. I envy you that you got the chance to play with Gary; and I too rather enjoy the whole sequence of the Greyhawk wars and the immediate aftermath. (I.e., all of the stuff thru 591 CY)

    I do have some minor differences of opinion...I don't really think the world is too cluttered...there are many different nations; but I like the fact that at least a multitude of different nationality types and structures are out there. I also think Greyhawk has more than enough 'wild' lands for exploration.....after all, the Flaneass is such a TINY part of its continent; you could make whatever you want throughout most of the western parts of it. Conversely; you could also do what you will with the other continents to the North, West and South (Hepmonaland)....there are plenty of 'canon' views on these topics; but as D&D has always maintained from the begining; take whatever you want and run with it: it's all about using your imaganation!

    Oh yeah...I'm one of the few...but I like Mordy with hair WAY better than without Smile ....now, he just looks like any of the millions of sheep; I mean people...I see in the mall with a shaved head, an earing and a goatee.....showing off thier 'originality'.....and all looking the same..what's next...Celtic knot tatoos around his arm? Happy
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:48 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    He probably had a mid-life crisis, bought a new black dragon to ride around on, shaved his head to cover up his hereditary baldness, and got a twenty-year old girlfriend.


    Mord has had a young chick (Rautheene) for an apprentice since 2nd ed, according to "The Wizards Three": http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mordenkainen13.jpg
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    Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:34 am  

    I think that most agricultural lands would be within a day's travel of a road or settlement. Beyond that you have herdsmen ranging over a wider area who are quite vulnerable to attack from raiders and wild animals. Patrols can't be in more than one place at once so even the roads are not completely safe.
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