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    Canonfire :: View topic - Disappearance of Magic - Overall Greyhawk Narrative?
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    Disappearance of Magic - Overall Greyhawk Narrative?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:25 am  
    Disappearance of Magic - Overall Greyhawk Narrative?

    My questions to the learned members of Canonfire are:

    Do you think there is an overall theme or narrative that is canonical for the World of Greyhawk?

    Do you have an overall theme or narrative for your particular campaigns, and if so what is it?

    A couple of things caught my attention and have made me think there might be an intriguing answer to my questions that link Mordenkainen's notion of "balance" with the foretold disappearance of magic.

    First, magic is disappearing from the Oerth by the time of Pluffet Smedger the Elder (998 CY according to the timeline in the wiki). Perhaps certain individuals in the late 500's CY know of such a fate for magic (through divine message, prophecies, Remminkainen's Book of Hours, magical time-travel, etc.). Such a Boccob-venerating wizard (or wizards) develops a theory of balance where no one philosophy, religion, race or other faction gains such an upper-hand they no longer look to magic to protect them from their opponents. By 570 CY, concerned that things are just too quiet in the Flanaess, plans are set in motion to release an imprisoned evil demi-god named Iuz. Etc., etc., etc.

    I'm brainstorming here, trying to generate a principle that can explain a lot of what goes on, and what consequences could occur especially for Oerth-spanning epic/divine scenarios. Should a good character struggle for a future Oerth that is safe enough that no one needs petition the gods for miracles nor dabble in the arcane? Should evil ones seek a magic free world where their brute strength and ruthlessness reigns supreme? Might an alternative theory of neutrality seek to destroy magic outright?

    Please share your thoughts on over-all themes for Greyhawk, as well as how to address the foretold disappearance of magic.

    Thank you.


    Last edited by A-Baneful-Backfire on Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:14 am; edited 2 times in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:35 pm  

    I seem to recall the article on Boccob in one of the last Dragon magazines mentioned that their clergy promoted the creation of new magic and the use of magic as much as possible, fearing that it was the lack of its use and creation that leads to its extinction ("use it or lose it."). Perhaps the low-magic races (talking 1st edition here), like dwarves, orcs, etc. eventually develop technology, and its widespread adoption and accessibility (e.g. anyone can ride a train, but only a few can cast airboat or wind walk) lead to a gradual turning away from magic.
    Forum Moderator

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    Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:52 pm  

    I like this topic. I haven't pondered themes in my campaigns in a long time. The Balance is indeed the main one of the setting in my opinion. It is embodied in alot of the major NPCs that inahbit the Flanaess. Balance also fit well with the Old Faith of the Flan and perhaps demihumankind. Only the overpowering presence of Evil as mentioned, beings like Iuz, has made those of the Balance seem to be more in favor of Good.
    At the end of my last Epic campaign most of the major evils like Iuz had been vanquished and many of the PCs were Good aligned but they were so powerful and into the politics of the land that I then turned the Balance on them until they became perceived as the new threat.
    The fading of magic is very interesting too, and I always felt it was a predestined bookend to give the campaign closure down the road much like Middle Earth going into a new age at the end of LotR. Hand in hand with the fading of magic surely must be the fading of deities. I mean the religions would never go, or maybe would homogenize, but no arcane magic would surely have to be coupled with a decline in divine?

    Good stuff. I'll think on more as the thread progresses.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:15 pm  

    I never really bothered with themes except on a campaign-by-campaign basis, but I have been pondering the loss of magic for a long time now. Frankly, I couldn't come up with a good enough idea of how or why it was happening. I did decide, though, that its loss would be the transition into a new "modern" era, and the plans for that gathered speed when "Greyhawk 2000" and d20 Modern came out.

    Only a year or three ago did I discover a reason for magic to disappear. One of the LG mods described a plant on another world that devoured magic in all its forms. The plant was just beyond a planar gate that stood in a tower containing a certain Codex of WoG fame. Upon reading that I ruled that the door to that gate had stood open for centuries and that magic had begun leeching through due to the plant's proximity. Thus, I "found" a way for magic to be draining away in a manner that was not easily discoverable nor traceable. Ironically, when I used that mod in my own game, the players left the door wide open when they exited, allowing the drain to continue at a faster pace.
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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:45 am  

    Mortellan,

    Thank you for pointing out the Old Faith. I'm wondering if they could be a neutral faction ultimately in favor of a magic-free and therefore more "natural" Oerth. Perhaps motivated by the magic abominations of the Ur-Flan, might they be viewing their own magic as a temporary expedient that should ultimately be removed from the hands of mortals?

    I also just remembered one more reference to the interference of magic on Oerth. Don't high level divinations or spells stop working during the event's of "Vecna Lives?" Could this be an example of one side getting more power (Vecna advancing in divine status) and disturbing the magical balance?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:38 am  
    Magic Consequences

    If there's no more magic, are you as DMs going to let that affect the weather since there doesn't seem to be enough water on Oerth to support the weather that the Flanness has?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:54 am  

    A-Baneful-Backfire wrote:

    I also just remembered one more reference to the interference of magic on Oerth. Don't high level divinations or spells stop working during the event's of "Vecna Lives?" Could this be an example of one side getting more power (Vecna advancing in divine status) and disturbing the magical balance?


    Vecna used Tovag Baragu to erect a shield around Oerth, blocking it off from the outer planes (and most gods). Presumably, things return to normal at the end of Vecna Lives!, but the adventure does not explicitly say so. -- I used these events to result in a resurgence of the Old Faith (and a rise of plague in urban centers), since I ruled that druids, and other priests who worship gods/forces on Oerth or the inner planes retained their powers. -- It's possible that the barrier remains until someone manages to switch the artifact off, or until certain planets are no longer aligned with certain standing stones.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:59 am  
    Re: Magic Consequences

    Raymond wrote:
    If there's no more magic, are you as DMs going to let that affect the weather since there doesn't seem to be enough water on Oerth to support the weather that the Flanness has?


    Given that the laws of physics are all kinds of screwed up in Greyhawk's multiverse, I foresee all sorts of changes, ultimately ending up in a destruction of Oerth and its planetary system. But, in the interests of continued gaming, IMC that will take a long, long time. And, of course, the multiverse will eventually remake itself somehow.

    Even more likely, some errant group of PCs will eventually just fix everything and the loss of magic won't be a problem.
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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:14 pm  
    Re: Magic Consequences

    Raymond wrote:
    If there's no more magic, are you as DMs going to let that affect the weather since there doesn't seem to be enough water on Oerth to support the weather that the Flanness has?


    My initial response is sure! I am trying to contemplate the consequences of the loss of magic. Maybe the Flanaess becomes a desert (or an iceberg). Not that I have any idea just how the weather would change on Oerth, nor that I know how deep its oceans are.

    Any sort of climate changes would be helpful. I could use them to help indicate the magnitude of the fading magic, gradually building up as a campaign rolls along.

    What other climate/geologic effects occur as magic fades? I can think of the Dramidj getting colder and the Hellfurnaces erupting less frequently. Any others?
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:20 pm  

    FWIW, Frank Mentzer has frequently opined that the great philosophical struggle is magic/faith vs. science/technology. Perhaps the increase of technology on Oerth by 998 CY leads to the disappearance of magic.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:58 pm  

    I deal with the disappearance of magic in a very simple way:

    It's not going to happen.

    Magic, like the Oerth, is eternal. It is an intimate part of the world. The Oerth without magic is like humanity without the ability to think or feel-it is simply impossible. The ability to think, reason and feel is what makes us human, and magic is what makes the planet Oerth. These are the alpha and the omega, forever intertwined.

    The problem is that Pluffet Smedger the Elder, in 998 CY, is quite simply wrong. Magic may be less commonly practiced, but by the same token dwarves, elves and orcs are still as common as they ever were, swords and shields are the main tools of war, and neither the gun nor the internal combustion engine have proven able to function.

    My overall theme for Oerth is that the swords and the sorcery are akin to what the laws of physics are in our real world, something that remains eternal, however much social mores change, however much nations rise and fall, however much countless generations live and die.

    Guns do not work on Oerth.

    Magic does not disappear.

    The world does not industrialize.

    The dwarves, elves, dragons and other fantastic creatures do not vanish.

    Social and political ideas change. New theories of magic are continually devised. Mankind's knowledge of the world he lives in constantly expands. Nations rise and fall. The world of 998 CY is unrecognizable in a sociopolitical sense to someone of 591 CY.

    But the simple, clear and indisputable fact that guns do not work, that the world will not industrialize, and that sorcery has precedence over science are as much a fixed, unchanging part of the Oerth as the laws of science are in our reality.

    They cannot be changed.

    They are eternal.
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    Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:02 am  

    If magic is so much part of Greyhawk (and yes, it most certainly is), then isn't the threat of its disappearance the ultimate calamity, and therefore the ultimate motivator for a campaign/adventure/quest?

    Knowing what CruelSummerLord thinks of a Greyhawk without magic, if he was the player in such a campaign, we know how committed his characters would be to preventing it!

    Doesn't Greyhawk in the late 500's CY have less magic than it did before the Rain of Colorless Fire/Invoked Devastation? Isn't every adventure to the Sea of Dust partly a search for "lost" magic? And yet, such a loss of magic has not been accompanied by a rise in tech.

    By addressing the notion of overall theme, I'm trying to encourage discussion about what would be the primal motivation for Greyhawk characters. For Dark Sun its overcoming deprivation and Dragon-kings, Forgotten Realms had (does it still?) weave and shadow-weave, Red Steel had the mutation forming curse and constant need for a cure. I'm trying to discern if Greyhawk has one of its own tucked away somewhere. Or is Greyhawk just to be left with confronting a ravening godling like Iuz as its "point?"
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    Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:23 am  
    Point not/ Point not/ Watch the beat

    I think the "point" is that it's wide open for anything you want to do or not do. I find those other scenerios to be restricting though I must admit to not playing in those settings.
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    Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:35 pm  

    Interestingly and I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong but there is no canon adventure/supplement that deals with directly trying to defeat Iuz the deity. Now Iuz the Evil is the ultimate backdrop for adventuring in his land but nowhere is the god detailed himself. City of Skulls tries it's best to steer clear of Iuz's Palace and the Vecna or ToEE mods use him indirectly as well. Even the last known GH type book, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk had Iuz as a cameo not the antagonist IIRC. What does all this mean? I'm not sure, but I think Iuz as an everpresent backdrop of Evil is key but he is not the big bad Sauron-like villain that must be brought down ASAP either. 'Iuz' is more of an organizational or political threat at the PC level, just like the Slavelords or the Giant-Drow plots were. Kyuss in Age of Worms was much more of an immediate threat to the world, as was Vecna in his first mod.
    Basically, two main themes of GH are either battling numerous evil organizations in a backdrop of impending war, or opportunistically exploring ancient ruins during same said times.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:11 am  

    Iuz's statistics are given in From the Ashes, I think, and Iuz the Evil contains numerous suggestions for how the PCs might bring him down for good.

    The Soul Husks must be destroyed, his talisman destroyed, his Abyssal allies turned against him, until Iuz is weakened enough to be brought down in. Combat with the PCs. Naturally, it isn't assumed this happened, but the final destruction of Iuz is at least available as a PC goal. This would hardly eliminate all conflict on Oerth, but it'd be a very epic way to end a campaign.

    The idea that magic might eventually fade away was added as an afterthought to the first boxed set by the editors as a nonsensical way of explaining in-character how Oerth might eventually become our own world so that Pluffet Smedger's writings could end upnin the hands of TSR. The numerous physical differences were not explained. This is basically never mentioned again except in late descriptions of Boccob, some of which suggest that the drain on magic might be caused by Tharizdun, which would make Tharizdun the end-game villain of the Greyhawk campaign, as he was in the Gord books.
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    Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:26 am  

    Yeah Iuz's stats are in FtA and for that matter in the 83 boxed set. This of course reminds me of a classic discussion(and tangent) about god stats being set up as bait for powergaming in books like D&DG. Demipowers are acceptable in my opinon so I'll move on...

    After reading rasgon's post I re-read a bit in Iuz the Evil that I hadn't seen in years. It was so chuckle-inducing and overexplained that I had to share:

    Adventure Themes
    There are several broad themes for adventures in the lands of Iuz, each of which can yield many adventures and even campaigns in their own right. These are discussed below, but a word of warning first: skip the ‘save the world” stuff. luz is the most malignant force in the entire Greyhawk game world and he’s going to be around for a while. This world has just been at war and has been subject to tremendous upheavals. The last thing the campaign world needs now is an apocalyptic upheaval all over again as Our Mighty Heroes slay the fiendish Demipower. Anyway, this is boring, because it degenerates into the worst kind of powergaming. I mean, what do you do after you’ve killed the Number One Bad Guy?. Player characters of almost any level of experience should have their hands full simply helping the effort to keep Iuz at bay. Even inflicting a major strike against his forces should be the goal of a long campaign with experinced PCs of high level, and the repercussions will be very great. If you have PCs who think they can just drop in on the Old One and dispatch him, invite them to reflect on the fact that it will be easy for him to send, say, a hundred fiends after them for revenge should they fail, which they will. Remember that soul gem. Add a score or so of summoned invisible stalkers and aerial servants, for starters and the entire Boneshadow and then see if your players look quite so cocky about the prospect.


    Naturally this was written before 3rd edition. (hah)

    I am fairly sure the Boccob reference rasgon makes is from a Dragon Magazine article. If I had it handy I'd see what it says, but my vague recollection is that it was a doom and gloom myth as part of his dogma that builds off the notion that the end of the Epoch of Magic is coming and somehow Boccob or his religion can do something about it.

    If you think about it in an overall theme of Fading Magic and Iuz, the final defeat of Iuz and all that goes along with him (his profane magic, demons, undead, lairs, etc.) would go a long way to removing -more magic- from Oerth. The collateral damage Iuz causes during his reign might have also weakened magic in the Flanaess (the razing of Vesve for example).
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    Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:41 am  

    Greyhawk was conceived as the crowded sandbox of D&D. Subsequent worlds took advantage of the lessons learned or at least thought they did to focus on various themes for more coherent campaign aspects of gameplay. Greyhawk in comparsion tested these themes and therefore became a rather cluttered quilt of ideas. Some decisions were taken with little forethought other then – this could be interesting?

    Of course as greyhawk made its way to the market the public as curious as we are sought answers and reasons which caused the creators to gather the endless scraps of information into some kind of coherence some of which is more successful then others – which we all enjoy picking apart. The point is, unlike the other game worlds that were conceived as functional campaigns, greyhawk grew organically and while most of the growth works other parts even their creators admit should be pruned.

    In fact, most of the early writers seem rather surprised at the interest of the players in the background as most felt greyhawk would simply be used as a platform for adventures with little interest in why the gameworld is the way it is. Of course once the interest was apparent the writers were under tremendous pressure to capitalize on the demand – which could explain the mixed results.

    And what does this have to do with magic and villians?

    Greyhawk was never conceived with an original point or overarching theme other then have fun. The theme(s) if you must have one were added later. Gygax was a literary fan and historical buff so it is no surprise the game world takes liberally from both sources – he admitted as much. Though even he admitted he was influenced by the local trends at the time like tolkien perhaps a little too much.

    Gygax later when confronted with the public demand for an ultimate foe fought the idea as stifling as warnings abound within the early editions of such a course. He truly hated the idea of “winning greyhawk” and cherished the idea that greyhawk was what you made it.

    The closest theme Gygax eluded to back then, I omit the later destruction due to the well known issues, was an extention of the gord novels. The decay of magic and ultimately all of the multiverse at the hands of Tharzidun. Even this theme is protrayed more as an inevitable process much as the laws of physics rather then malicious choice. The results might be preceived as evil by the creatures of creation much as in our own world. The eventual decay of the universe would be mourned but the decaying atoms simply are much as Tharzidun is presented in much the same inevitable end to creation.

    Of course the deities compelled by self-preservation acted to slow the eventual outcome. It is rather a misnomer - “Boccob the Uncaring” - as Boccob seems to be the most focused on the problem almost to the complete exclusion of his worshippers. Of course much like us - few think that in, pick a number, 34 trillion years from now the universe will end. Life is to be lived now and so more pressing concerns take prority. Therefore the deities and the other races become distracted with their own interests. Iuz is merely one such distraction but the sand continues to flow through the hourglass and the time of tharzidun continues to draw neigh.

    Just a thought...
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    Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:44 pm  

    Tharizdun's connection to any decay of magic is intriguing. But I have one question - which has no correct answer as far as I can tell.

    Is Tharizdun, in his imprisoned state, the one who is draining magic (perhaps via worshipers), or is it the prison in which he is confined?

    (I am intrigued by the concept of Tharizdun's prison. Perhaps it drains in the magic and once it is all gathered there is no longer any chance of Tharizdun's escape, yet Oerth is forever changed into a mundane, magic-free place. Entropy is a pain in realty as well as fantasy. OR perhaps the Balance must be maintained to keep the prison intact. Constant maintenance is more a more likely requirement to counteract entropy. Just deciding on the nature of the prison could have significant effect on a campaign, even without a direct confrontation with Tharizdun, the prison or his worshipers.)

    Hey, one more question: If magic did begin to fade away, which would go first; high level magic or low level magic? What's your rationale?
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    Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:14 pm  

    The talk of Tharizdun's prison running on magic got me thinking. Is Oerth alone in being drained of magic, or is it the entire multiverse? I recall the Earth-based adventure, City Beyond the Gate, having limited magic because Earth was essentially cut-off from the planes. Perhaps as Oerth's magic fades, its connections to the rest of the multiverse become more tenuous. This would imply that Tharizdun's prison is on Oerth (or one of its inner or demi-planes), if we went with that theory. I like that better than the entire multiverse being drained of magic... But, if it is only one world being drained, then why would Boccob care? Plenty more magical fish in the sea. Hmmm. Perhaps the prison is draining magic from the entire multiverse, but Oerth is most affected due to its proximity. Eventually, Oerth is sealed off, and the prison is shattered as it is starved of magic, and Tharizdun ends up in just a larger prison, like in the Gord novels. But, can you really contain entropy forever?
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    Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:16 pm  

    I think, in general, higher level magic would go first. Imagine the worlds magic source as a group of power points. Eventually, you won't have enough p.p.s to cast 9th level spells... but you have enough remaining to use lower levels. That would be my rationale anyway.
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    Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:43 am  

    Entropy cannot be contained but its immediate and total effect can be detained or decreased. Tharizdun (and the entity Entropy) are coalesced forms of Entropy that consumed everything else. That should be unavoidable, for even though death and decay affects everything the process will also create or at least allow for creation.

    Overarching themes work very well in literature. In fact, one could argue that a literary work (of fantasy) without such a theme would seem rather bland and uninteresting. A campaign with such a theme could also work as long as there is a start and an end. But, IMO, a campaign world that is intended to exist and provide continuous play cannot have such a theme excpet as a general background without affecting play.
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    Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:03 am  
    Two Things

    1. I wondered about how I might handle fading magic. I keep wondering about maybe my PCs encountering less magic but their own use of it would stay by the book instead of trying to figure out if low level magic is affected or high level magic is affected or how magical creatures are affected.

    While reading this thread I had a new idea that would probably take care of it. If magic needs to seem like its fading, any magic-related roll should probably have adjusted probabilities reflecting the amount of fade. I recall some players use the chance of success for learning new spells percentage. There is the save vs. magic saving throw. Maybe +1 swords still do +1 but encountering them would be come less often as magic-users fail to successfully create them.

    2. The statistics for Iuz are detailed in the GREYHAWK ADVENTURES book.
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    Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:11 am  

    This is exactly the theme delt with in White Wolf's Mage game. Science is just another form of magic but the paradigm to use it has to be changed so it becomes more powerful thus making any other forms of magic less and less powerful. Essentially the Scientists change the way everyone thinks about the world and that changes the basic nature of reality around everyone. The same thing could happen in Greyhawk as technology gets more prevalent, people's reliance on magic lessens and the nature of reality on Oerth changes. Slowly but surely, Magic as is know changes and becomes science instead.
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    Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:15 pm  

    Although I am curious about the opinion of a true tharzidun expert such as maldin concerning the nature of his prison rather then a humble neophyte like myself. Some ideas to combine the opinions expressed.

    As oerth is the closest inhabited world the effect is more pronouced and noticeable, dark sun enthusasts are screaming as I write. As I postulate; resides among the demi-planes or outer planes as I hate the idea of an indiana jones scenario – hey discovered the tomb of the god of entrophy. The influence of tharzidun to my mind is insanely potent and no material tomb could contain it. I support the thought that the prison drifts within the multi-planar void to explain the effects on the various worlds. Once it got trapped in a planar eddy near dark sun and all but drained the world before breaking free.

    I like the idea that the prison is draining magic from the entire multiverse which explains Boccob's intense interest in the problem – its not a single world but everything which jibes with the pan-multiverse threat posed by tharzidun. For all we know the other gods and goddesses demanded boccob take up the challenge to safeguard the flow of magic to the prison – maintenance as it were.

    Perhaps the various magical glitches occur when the flow becomes polluted with either too much positive or negative engeries thus the neutral philosophies of most of the power players on oerth. Of course when either good or evil gains a dominant position a glitch inevitably occurs during which tharzidun has more freedom of actiion as the magical flow to the prison weakens – if only for an instance. Coincidence that during the severe magical conflugations on oerth that the sleeping god seems to slumber less soundly. Provides a rationale for the cult of tharzidun and their apocolyptic agenda even if the cultist do not realize it – tharzidun is trying to disrupt the magical flow.

    I also like the whole if oerth is drained the prison shatters simply to enlarge the size of the confinement but I also assume the influence of tharzidun would be enhanced somewhat. Much like a convict escaping solitary confinement but then must still get over the wall as it were. No wonder boccob works so hard as tharzidun could do so much more damage once released from the confines of solitary to potentially excelerate the destruction of the multiverse.

    Paltry post but I tried...
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    Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:24 pm  

    The 1E Manual of the Planes, in an Appendix on Alternate Primes, posits three ratings for a Prime Plane: Physical Factor, Magical Factor, and Temporal Factor.

    Greyhawk as a "standard AD&D campaign" has a rating of 0, 0, 0

    Earth as a "typical 20th Century World" has a rating of 5, -4, 5

    Thus, if I wanted to use the fading magic idea (for example, in a time-travel or prevent the decay campaign), I would have the Oerth's MF drop by about 1 point per century to arrive at -4 by c. CY 980.

    If I wanted to have rising technology as the explanation for the fall of magic, the PF would rise a corresponding 1.25 points per century.

    Some excerpts:

    Physical Factor 0 [Oerth c. CY 580]
    Language possible for most intelligent creatures. Animation of inanimate objects possible. Size does not limit flight ability or intelligence. Firearm combustion impossible. Creatures over 10 feet tall possible.

    Physical Factor 1 [Oerth c. CY 660]
    Flight possible for most winged creatures. Sentience and language possible for most intelligent creatures. Firearm combustion impossible. Creatures over 10 feet tall possible.

    Physical Factor 3 [Oerth c. CY 820]
    Flight possible for large hollow boned creatures. Explosive chemical reactions such as those found in firearms are erratic. Creatures over 10 feet tall possible.

    Physical Factor 5 [Modern Earth, Oerth c. CY 980)]
    Bipedal creatures over 10 feet tall unlikely. Flight restricted to small hollow-boned creatures. Most liquids and gasses inert, but combustion such as that found in gasoline engines or firearms possible.



    Magical Factor 0 [Oerth c. CY 580]
    Most individuals of most sentient races can cast spells, if given proper training. Magic-users must study their spells and clerics must pray for spells.

    Magical Factor -1 [Oerth c. CY 680]
    Maximum 8th level spells possible. Rare individuals of one or two sentient races can cast spells.

    Magical Factor -3 [Oerth c. CY 880]
    Maximum of 6th level spells possible. Clerics can gain only 1st and 2nd level spells.

    Magical Factor -4 [Modern Earth, Oerth c. CY 980]

    Magical Factor -5 [Oerth c. CY 1080]
    Spells that rely on Powers of other planes do not operate. Maximum of 3rd level spells possible.


    The most interesting outcome of this is not the loss of spell level so much as the rapid-dwindling of spell-casting races.


    If I wanted something more complex than this I would look to TORG.
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    Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:01 pm  

    I had an even more unusual slant on Big T and the reduction of magic, but I must warn you it goes of the rails quite a bit:

    Tharizdun has been mis-interpretted throughout the years. I actually think that he is not a god in the sense that we think. I think he is actually the embodiment of magic which has been mis- interpreted as an evil power, magic being a chaotic force,hence the reduction in the level of magic in the world of Oerth once he is imprisoned.

    The basic idea can be found at:

    http://windfolar.blogspot.com/

    Just click on the image of My Theory behind Tharizdun & Asmodeus


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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:23 am  
    Earth Analogue

    Gygax purposely changed some of the Earth norms to make Oerth more un-Earth-like. For example, the people in the jungles of Oerth may resemble people from nortic areas of Earth or something like that. I don't have the details in front of me. He didn't want people to say, oh this is the ancient Greek anologue setting in this corner and the Roman in that corner so he mixed up stuff on purpose. In contrast, Mystara and Forgotten Realms are more of a direct analogue of Earth with some parts taking directly from French influences (see X2) or native American influences (see Maztica).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:28 pm  

    Nice blog jacko

    Love the map and the guild thieves chart

    Interesting theories about the connection between tharzidun and asmodeus however I prefer simple motivations. The "infected" angle gives the demons an excuse for their behavior. It's not really their fault disturbs me.

    Personally, I say no excuses -
    Demons hold your heads high and let the blood drenched flag fly with pride
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    Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:56 pm  

    IronGolem wrote:
    A-Baneful-Backfire wrote:

    I also just remembered one more reference to the interference of magic on Oerth. Don't high level divinations or spells stop working during the event's of "Vecna Lives?" Could this be an example of one side getting more power (Vecna advancing in divine status) and disturbing the magical balance?


    Vecna used Tovag Baragu to erect a shield around Oerth, blocking it off from the outer planes (and most gods). Presumably, things return to normal at the end of Vecna Lives!, but the adventure does not explicitly say so. -- I used these events to result in a resurgence of the Old Faith (and a rise of plague in urban centers), since I ruled that druids, and other priests who worship gods/forces on Oerth or the inner planes retained their powers. -- It's possible that the barrier remains until someone manages to switch the artifact off, or until certain planets are no longer aligned with certain standing stones.


    See also this bit concerning the book Imaginary Landscapes in Vecna Lives! (p. 24):

    "If the reading character qualifies, he finds a chapter where the divinations of
    the world disappear as Magic (a living being) dies, leaving only the art of subjective divination. In the tale, the hero (such as there is one in this odd, little book) discusses the death of Magic with the Incomplete Man-a character whose body is constantly dividing and reassembling during the conversation. The Incomplete Man takes credit for the death of Magic, which he brought about to make himself whole."
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