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    Canonfire :: View topic - Degrees of Separation
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    Degrees of Separation
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


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    Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:16 am  
    Degrees of Separation

    Minor Rant Alert -

    So as not to disturb the Acererak's Tyranny thread, I present this quote from that thread in a new one -

    mortellan wrote:
    AFAIK, the Acererak serving Vecna thing only came from the Vecna graphic novel (Hand of the Revenant?). Now I -do- like that novel and the info on Acererak is entirely compatible with the scant canon we have. I'm just sayin...

    . . . I will admit, I dislike Lyzandred and his forced inclusion in the mythos of Greyhawk concerning the likes of Zagig and now apparently Acererak. As if there weren't enough liches and mad wizards, this character was redundant in my opinion.


    Mort brings up a pet peeve of mine vis a vis Greyhawk design. Supposedly, in Hollywood, any two actors/films can be linked within 6 degrees of seperation. On Oerth, it seems more like any character/module can be linked by 3 degrees of separation or less. Everyone knows, worked for, fought, fought with, was apprenticed to, slept with, went drinking with etc. - everyone else within 3 degrees. It makes the setting, IMO, feel inbred if not incestuous. Bad design in my view to tie everyone to Zagyg or Vecna or Iuz or Acererak or members of the Circle of Eight etc. and worse to tie any of these overmuch to each other. Contemporaries? Fine. Anything more says, to me, the designer's design could not stand on its own and needed "help" in the form of a tie-in to some well established notable, who gets overexposed in the process. Too much of this sort of individual overexposure and the settings feels claustrophobic to me, a family tree with only a few branches, maybe a family bush.

    This is in part due, as well, to rigidly sticking to a too narrow timeline in Greyhawk iterations. The nearly same ground gets walked over again and again and attempts to bring new elements within the narrow range of the timeline seem shoehorned and promote "linking" to notables as a way to try to "justify" or "legitimate" the shoehorning. But shoehorning is shoehorning.

    Stop making every NPC some notable other NPCs cousin, bunkie, BFF, arch-enemy, lieutenant, sidekick, lover, lovechild etc. And advance the blasted timeline to help that process along. Either that or accept Oerth as some sort of redneck fantasy, where everyone is somehow incestuously related to everyone else, an inbred Oerth in 3 degrees of separation.

    End rant. That is all.
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    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

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    Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:07 pm  

    Okay, this is my third attempt at trying to write this post. The first two dealt with about a dozen different ways the "three degrees of separation" could be shoehorned into making sense, as well as about half a dozen other observations regarding the OP.

    And then I realized I was approaching this from the wrong angle.

    So just let me say this: first, I can easily see how all these major figures became interlinked, and it is rather annoying at times. Second, it would be nice if contemporary writers came up with something original, especially if it didn't interfere with current canon and didn't involve any of the half-demon/half-eladrin/tiefling/warforged dual-wielding good-aligned drow crap that's become so common over the last few years. Third, I agree that the timeline should be advanced, but not by much. And fourth, I don't think that it's necessary to advance the timeline, if only someone would go to the effort to organize the information we already have in some way that makes it easier to keep track of it all.

    But with all that said, I do understand your gripe, and at least to some extent I agree with it.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

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    Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:30 pm  

    GVD; feels stifled and interbred among the mortals then best not even consider the infernal or deities. For beings concerned with vast and timeless multiverse issues these soap opera wanna bees sure seem to send most of the time bickering and bed hopping.

    At least its not dull but can be overdone - Guilty Pleasure Embarassed
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

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    Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:59 pm  

    GVD you are preaching to the choir my friend. Yes very annoying when something is rehashed to something all ready done or linked to another notable character. Don't even get me started on the pointy eared ones. All I could say is amen my brother.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:05 am  

    Yep. Preaching to the choir. It would be nice if people could make up something new that stands on its own every once in a while. Its my only real criticism of the more recent Greyhawk material. The Iggwilv/Tasha thing in particular was simply unnecessary.
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

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    Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:11 pm  

    Actually, the six-degrees is how many people you would have to pass a package through to get it to anyone in the world... Kevin Bacon is a Johnny-Come-lately in this sense.

    As for the quality and originality of the material, sad to say that is the "productive" (not creative) process at work. The authors link everything together to save time on actually developing a background, wether it be a game module or a novel. This is why I stopped reading TSR/WOTC novels over a decade ago, they were, with a few rare exceptions, drearily repetitive. The modules were only marginally better. I am afraid that franchises seldom maintain good material, especially over a prolonged time.

    As for Bubbagump's complaint, I wholeheartedly agree about the pathetic "characters" that are churned out. Again, if you make a character exotic, it is much easier to make him conflicted, memorable, strange, etc. Beats actually developing a beleivable personality with good points and bad points all worked in. Probably the best authors who do that are George R.R. Martin and Larry McMurtry (at least with the Lonesome Dove Quartet). Both frequently write about
    ordinary people doing difficult things. Heck, I wanted to base a character off of Woodrow Call, just because he was so interesting, particularly his myriad flaws.
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