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    Canonfire :: View topic - and the heart of Vecna
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    and the heart of Vecna
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    From: Computer Desk

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    Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:04 pm  
    and the heart of Vecna

    Nice piece of fiction, although it does have some canon problems.

    On the content side; maybe its just me but I am growing tired of the melodramatic core of epic PCs. Not everyone has to have a noble background or distraught lost love. Where are the PCs from poor backgrounds who just wanted to be wealthy.

    Just a thought...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:57 pm  

    For me it was nice to see some motivation behind Vecna other than just hunger for power.

    Good going Galliskinmaufrius! I hope this is the first of many fine articles.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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    Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:03 pm  

    Crag: Thanks, I apologize for the canon problems.

    You're right for the content: afterthought, I realize that I (not willingly) repeated the Joseph Campbell's theory from "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". So my Vecna story is just another "cliché" or "déjà vu".

    Hey! Maybe Vecna was just driven by lust for wealth and power. But when I read Steven Wilson's chronology, I wondered why Vecna was so completely obsessed by the destruction of an entire Elven kingdom, Aliador, while he left Celene relatively in peace.

    smillan_37: thank you very much indeed.
    Forum Moderator

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    Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:49 pm  

    There is alot of semi-canonical Vecna stuff in publication like the comic book about his background. Having him hate on elves seems more epic than bullying Flan villages. Keep up the good work at any rate, Gallis! Smile
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:55 pm  

    Thanks, Mortellan!

    So why did Vecna hate so much the Elves? Why did he kill their King and razed their cities? I thought he wanted back something they kept... something or someone. And I said to myself: that's it, he wanted his love back.

    I made also Vecna to first learn the value of secrets in his depend.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 13, 2006
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    Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:19 pm  

    I enjoyed the piece Galliskinmaufrias. I guess you could say it was a little cliched but, let's face it, Vecna's an ancient bad guy and he could well have been the first in GH to say "I can't get a girl and that makes me SOOOOO MAD!"
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
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    Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:45 pm  

    Link?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:55 pm  

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=883&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    Galliskinmaufrius,
    Canon "problems" are nothing of the sort here. While canon can be a useful tool for comparing or sharing material that we create, it is by no means a requirement here on Canonfire! Don't feel there is any need to edit your material to adapt to canon precedents if you think you've done a better, or just different, version. Smile
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:35 pm  

    Thanks Ratlord.

    What a relief, so, we shall not fire the canon at me?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:05 am  

    Thought this was well done but my question on Vecna is and has always been. "Why the Circle of eight didn't kill him when they had the chance"

    When your dealing with a big bad like Vecna you got to figure Mordenkainen and friends would have found him and destroyed him before he ever got going, if he were that large of a threat
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:33 am  

    Well, Vecna first started getting going about 2000 years ago, so the Circle of Eight weren't around yet. He was already a demigod before any of them were born, and thus well beyond their power level.

    The Circle of Eight attempted to stop one of his plots in the introduction to Vecna Lives! I don't know if spoilers apply here, but...
























    ...All eight of them died (Mordenkainen stayed at home, and the eight dead Circle members were all later regenerated from clones), and they weren't even fighting Vecna himself, just a warlord equipped with his Eye and Hand.

    So the answer is that the Circle of Eight didn't stop Vecna because they weren't powerful enough. They never had the chance.

    There's evidence (in Die, Vecna, Die!) that Vecna was one of Zagyg's prisoners beneath Castle Greyhawk, freed after Robilar's ill-fated attempt at killing Iuz. Robilar, Bigby, Riggby, and so on nearly got killed just fighting Iuz; Vecna probably escaped sometime later. He would have been imprisoned beneath the castle for the entire lifetimes of most of the Circle members until that point, approximately 570 CY.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:51 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Well, Vecna first started getting going about 2000 years ago, so the Circle of Eight weren't around yet. He was already a demigod before any of them were born, and thus well beyond their power level.


    The LGG claims he "gained a foothold on godhood thousands of years ago" (186) which could mean nearly anything. In addition, Vecna Lives! claims the Hand & Eye "are items that have existed for thousands of years or even longer" (70). Also note that the 1E DMG (157) & Eldritch Wizardry (43) both state that Vecna "imbued" his artifacts with power himself, which would've been nigh impossible after his body was destroyed in the conflict with Kas.

    Quote:
    There's evidence (in Die, Vecna, Die!) that Vecna was one of Zagyg's prisoners beneath Castle Greyhawk, freed after Robilar's ill-fated attempt at killing Iuz. Robilar, Bigby, Riggby, and so on nearly got killed just fighting Iuz; Vecna probably escaped sometime later. He would have been imprisoned beneath the castle for the entire lifetimes of most of the Circle members until that point, approximately 570 CY.


    I was unaware of that until now, Rip! Could you point out the page number for me? My pdf search function doesn't bring up anything regarding Zagyg.


    Last edited by Robbastard on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:09 pm  

    Ragr wrote:
    I enjoyed the piece Galliskinmaufrias. I guess you could say it was a little cliched but, let's face it, Vecna's an ancient bad guy and he could well have been the first in GH to say "I can't get a girl and that makes me SOOOOO MAD!"


    Actually, Ragr, were you or Galliskinmaufrias aware that Vecna did have a canonical crush?


    DVD! (95) describes a mural in Vecna's palace, which pictures "a handsome young wizard . . . wearing a crown and s[it]ting on a throne of snakes," who "looks on with a wistful smile as a hooded executioner prepares to strike a noble woman wearing an elegant dress and jewelry of a fashion that is unknown to the heroes. Corpses litter the ground around the figures. (This scene is Vecna watching the execution of the noble woman he had chosen to be his wife. She refused to wed him, so he killed her family one by one, saving her for last. Vecna never sought another wife after that.)"
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:53 am  

    That's an awesome find Rob! Good work! Happy
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:33 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    I was unaware of that until now, Rip! Could you point out the page number for me? My pdf search function doesn't bring up anything regarding Zagyg.


    Well, I said evidence, not proof. Zagyg isn't mentioned directly, but there's what I consider a strong hint. Die Vecna Die! says on page 5: "According to the lore of some recordkeepers, the cult enjoyed a resurgence almost twenty years ago, although it was stifled. About seven to ten years ago the faithful congregated once more."

    Assuming the adventure takes place in 591, then about 20 years ago was 571, just after the time when Iuz was freed from beneath Castle Greyhawk in 570. Ten years ago was 581, when Vecna Lives! was set, so that resurgence is no mystery.

    The fact that the adventure mentions a major resurgence shortly after the nine demigods were freed (they didn't all escape at exactly the same time, we know) suggests to me that Vecna was one of those demigods, and the "resurgence" represented the cultists suddenly regaining clerical spellcasting after the long-awaited return of their patron (who subsequently stifled them himself, as they were bringing too much attention to him). Another, more prosaic, theory is that Vecna's cultists swarmed to the Greyhawk region at that time to investigate the rumors of recently freed gods, to see if they could learn the secret of binding gods themselves. When their efforts didn't come to anything, they subsided again. But I prefer the former explanation; I don't think a few cultists skulking about the City of Greyhawk and perhaps the upper levels of the castle and then going away again really constitutes a "resurgence." I'm not aware of any other major event in 570-571 that would excite the Vecna cultists' attention.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:10 pm  

    Ah, I read that, but didn't make the connection. It's an interesting possibility, and Vecna is a more attractive NE demigod (his alignment in DVD) than Mona's suggestion of Chitza-Atlan.

    It would also explain how Vecna became familiar with Iuz, considering that the Archlich crafted a pair of tablets as "a set-up, secretly aimed at a handful of demipowers who met Vecna's criteria" (DVD, 2).

    This also fuels the speculation that the Godtrap may have also helped more than just Zagyg ascend to divinity. Considering Iuz was born in the mid 5th century, some have wondered if his imprisonment (or freeing) was an unintended consequence. Such might also explain how Zagyg, as wily as he is, was able to capture someone as crafty as Vecna--it was all part of his plan (Vecna had a cult long before this time, but he may have only been a quasi-deity).

    Furthermore, in my research, I haven't found anything indicating Vecna was active between 505 & 570 CY, so it very well may have happened.
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