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    Canonfire :: View topic - Pre- & post-Wars city populations
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Pre- & post-Wars city populations
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 895
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

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    Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:50 am  
    Pre- & post-Wars city populations

    Someone put together an Excel spreadsheet showing the pre- and post-Wars populations of cities in the Flanaess. I think it was on the old Codex of Greyhawk site. Did anyone here happen to archive that file? Apparently I didn't. Sad
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 12, 2005
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    Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:44 am  

    I've got one that seems to be only post-War. No idea where I got it from, it's just part of my GH hoard.

    Happy to share if it helps.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1844
    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:49 pm  

    I started doing this in excel, giving the 1980 Gaz., 1983 Gaz. + Military, and the LGG figures. I guess to be thorough I should throw in the FTA figures too, although I think it only gives figures for the capital's population. If I (miracle of miracles, but it's a slow rainy day off work for me so who knows) finish this anytime soon I can post it, or upload it as the case may be.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2010
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    Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:31 pm  

    Such a file would be very handy. When I was working on the BK gazetteer project, I noticed that the LGG inflated the population figures by as much as 500% for some nations.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:15 pm  

    I'm up through Ratik. Yeah that's a big difference between the BK's pre-war pop. of 95,000+ and 475,200 after the war. Even with the demi-human 21% of the total population that aren't counted in the pre-war figure. Even a massive influx of Iuz soldiery wouldn't account for that. The pop. of Rookroost isn't that different though.
    There seems to be a similar situation in the Pomarj.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

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    Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:21 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    There seems to be a similar situation in the Pomarj.


    Well, you know how orcs & goblins breed.... ;)

    As for the human and demihuman population figures, we'll have to look for another answer.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:02 pm  

    I blame the god of retconning. Or Vecna. Whichever.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3250
    From: Michigan

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    Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:29 am  

    I remember Gary Holian said the 1st edition population figures only accounted for men fit for combat, while the LGG figures include the entire population. Looking through A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, it actually says that's only true for humanoids (but the AGttWoG figures do exclude brigands, nonhumans, wanderers, independent communities, and border regions), but that's as good a rationale for the change as you're going to get, and what the authors were thinking when they revised the populations.

    The assumption, then, is that the 1st edition and 3rd edition population figures aren't measuring the same thing.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:48 pm  

    Just running a few of these, most 1e populations are roughly 20% of the 3e populations. I'm done with the spreadsheet. I just need to add a few notes as to how I came to some of the figures. How do I get it uploaded?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 05, 2003
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    Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:18 pm  

    I remember this issue coming up on GreyTalk with some frequency back in '97 or '98.

    IIRC the 1ed figures were for fighting adults and the 2E figures were for 'able bodied adults' - i.e. not necessarily JUST those who fight. Judging from the the 3e figures I guess you could assume that the figures are for ALL living humanoids. Factor that in with a Post-War baby boom and better methods of census taking (ie it is now safer to travel to some smaller out of the way places that likely would have been missed in prior tallies), and you can probably have a fairly believable rationale.

    Also, I remember Stephene Tanquay (sp?) also doing a VERY similar project during that era. I once had a copy but when I looked just now I couldn't find it. It has been 10+ years and 4 or 5 computers ago. It was a great document, however, the only problem being (for me anyway) that many of the town names were in French.

    If the GreyTalk archives are still available you might look around.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
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    From: Dantredun, MN

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    Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:59 am  

    Jeff McKillop compiled a four-page "Population of the Cities of the Flanaess" with figures for 576 CY and 585CY. I don't have it saved but I printed a hardcopy out in '97 that I'll scan shortly.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
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    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

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    Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:12 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    Jeff McKillop compiled a four-page "Population of the Cities of the Flanaess" with figures for 576 CY and 585CY. I don't have it saved but I printed a hardcopy out in '97 that I'll scan shortly.
    That sounds like the one! Smile
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