Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk Wargaming
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Greyhawk Wargaming
    Author Message
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:42 pm  
    Greyhawk Wargaming

    One of my hobbies as I have grown older (professionally and biologically) has been war gaming. AD&D actually first got me interested in it when I ended up purchasing the Battlesystem rules (2ed) version many moons ago, and we occasionally incorporated into my high school era campaign. Furtoutiusly, my graduate education now focuses on war gaming and simulation a lot (as do my hobbies and my day job, and this has made me curious about possibilities with Greyhawk. So my question is…
    Did anyone ever write a Battlesystems scenario based on events of the Greyhawk Wars or other aspects of Flanaess history? I remember Patriots of Ulek had a scenario (though no map, that would have been handy), but just the short history that came with Greyhawk Wars boxed brought created dozens of easy possibilities to my mind. In hindsight, I wonder why no product was ever made to tie Greyhawk Wars and Battlesystems together (this would have been an easy marketing lay-up).
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:18 am  

    In my little Greyhawk home campaign we often wargame battles based around events the characters are involved in or are influenced by. Greyhawk Militia vs humanoids etc but then again we are a wargaming as well as a roleplaying group so that helps. Wink

    We do not use the Battlesystem as it is, IMHO, not really that good. We adopted a set of existing wargames rules and added magic to it. It seems to work and we have done about a dozen full scale battles with only the traditional level of gamer bickering.

    It just adds and extra dimension to our Greyhawk campaign that seems to be popular and allows the PCs to get involved in the bigger picture.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 403


    Send private message
    Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:44 am  

    I never used Battlesystem all that much (coming from a wargaming background, it was something of a let-down), and never did anything with that and Greyhawk.

    However, a couple of friends and I are slowly but surely painting some armies for use with Field of Glory. It's strictly a historical game, so there aren't any extant rules to encorporate magic or non-human troops, but we'll be putting together some for the purpose.

    My first armies are going to be Iron League and South Province. My friends are doing Frost/Snow/Ice barbarians and Ratik, if I'm not mistaken.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 494
    From: Dantredun, MN

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:57 am  
    Re: Greyhawk Wargaming

    tarelton wrote:
    In hindsight, I wonder why no product was ever made to tie Greyhawk Wars and Battlesystems together (this would have been an easy marketing lay-up).


    It's unrelated to the Wars, but the Castles boxed set is the closest to what you're looking for, containing three Battlesystem scenarios involving Castle Hart and the Horned Society. Anne Brown later gave a brief update on the post-war status of Castle Hart in the letters column of Dungeon Magazine #53 (IIRC, it was damaged badly by Iuz's forces, but still standing).

    Besides Castles and WGQ1, the only other GH Battlesystem scenario I can think of is between the Rovers and Horned Society in Ghost Dance in Dungeon #32.

    Check out WGA1-3 for more maps and foldup models. I assume Strongholds, Dungeons of Mystery and Cities of Mystery would be useful as well.

    More ideas for mass combat can be found in the troop figures on p43-44 of The Marklands, the "Order of Battle" information for Tenser, Robilar, and other NPCs in Dragon #37, and the GH news updates starting in Dragon #56 which contain a lot of information on skirmishing and troop movements leading up to the Wars. EDIT: Finally, there's a really stupid confrontation between some small "armies" in Slade's WGS2.

    I don't know the first thing about wargaming or if this has any relevance to Battlesystem, but there's a ton of "Armies of Oerth" articles over here:
    http://lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
    Posts: 594


    Send private message
    Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:41 pm  

    http://www.trolllord.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=37&osCsid=n61psad1bu13rp11dvqctg5262

    This is the best tabletop wargaming product around. It is made for C&C, but its rules EASILY adapt to any RPG that uses HD. I am serious when I say EASY, too.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:15 pm  

    Thanks everyone for the insight. I was not aware the BattleSystem was regarded poorly as a war gaming product. I am curious as to your opinions why.
    I remember the Castles set having some good scenarios in it as well. I did like the Greyhawk Wars Game, but it was too much of a strategic level model for my tastes. I still remain amazed that no one at TSR tried to tie in the two product lines more during that period.
    As for the folding scenery, from WGA1-3, I remember many a Saturday in the basement with the Elmer’s Glue trying to get the wall segments to stand up. That is another reason to avoid urban battles in my mind.
    I will take a look at Trollord, though it will have to wait until I am done with “Flint and Steel”, my latest acquisition which got me on this topic in the first place. I think I’ll fight a few French and Indian War (Seven Years War for WildCoaster) while listening to the soundtrack to last of the Mohicans.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:19 am  

    We never liked the BattleSystem as it was, compared to rules we were already using, too simplistic and clunky: if that makes sense. Just the common feelings on the matter and we do like our fantasy. Razz We have used Hordes of the Things (HotT) for De Bellis Multitudnis (DBM) and at least two in house rules. We now use an old set of wargames rules called Tercio which we have heavily modified, especially by bringing D&D spells in to it- “whoosh” went the fireball, “ouch” went the close order pike block.

    I will definitely have a look at those suggested rules though, thanks guys.

    Love your log on name Tarelton. I am from and work in the same city, Liverpool, as he was from and must confess to a fondness for old Bloody Ban though, of course, I morally despise him, especially his pro-slavery stance. Good luck with your FIW/SYW games. I must say I do like that whole horse and musket period, even the American Revolutionary War period. Sad

    Our next Greyhawk campaign battle is on Monday December 27th where my new “Splintered Light” gnolls and kobolds along with my “Eureka Miniatures” half-orcs will be getting their first day out on the table. We play a lot of the Conan soundtrack music till we get bored then Lord of the Rings but personally I love Turkish Janissary music when the baddies attack.

    Oops am wandering off!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:37 am  

    Though I have Battlesystem, I am not much of a fan of it either. I have used regular (A)D&D rules for large battles, but with a few battlefield modifications which mainly involve various effects for/against troops in closed and skirmish formations. We could use templates and such a' la Warhammer Fantasy Battles style, but I do not. Spells with areas of effect, like a fireball are handled as follows:

    Fireball- A closed formation of troops takes 2x damage on a failed save, regular damage on a successful save. Skirmishers take full damage on a failed save, half damage on a successful save. Total the damage, and then proceed to remove hit points worth of models until the damage total is reached, or nearly reached but without going over it. For example. An 8th level Wizard casts a fireball spell that causes 31 points of damage at a unit of 25 Orcs(5 h.p. each) in closed formation. The Orc unit fails its saving throw, taking 62 points of damage to the unit. The Orc player removes 12 Orcs(60 h.p. worth of them), and records that the Orc unit has 2 h.p of damage on them, which is not enough to kill another Orc(who is instead merely scorched a bit). Heroic characters/leaders within units are not killed outright by such uses of battle magic, but instead must suffer damage equivalent to the hit points of a basic trooper in the unit- in this case 5 hit points of damage, as they are at the forefront of units where the brunt of damage will most likely be suffered. Even still, heroic characters are allowed a further individual saving throw to avoid this damage, which is then applied to the rest of the basic troopers in the unit instead. This keeps heroes "heroic", but does not allow them to simply "hide" in a unit and not be affected by anything. If enough damaged is sustained by a unit to kill every basic trooper in a unit, any remaining damage will bleed over onto any heroes in the unit who will divide the remaining damage among them as evenly as is possible Any damage leftover after a lesser character within a unit is divided among any remaining characters. Also, unit saving throws are based on the best saving throw of any model in the unit. Yes, heroic characters are very beneficial to units that they join, but they also paint a huge bullseye on those units(and themselves) as well. Here is an example of how damge is dealt to a unit with heroic characters in it:

    The above unit of 20 Orcs is led by a Warleader with 28 hit points, a Witch Doctor with 19 hit points, and a Sergeant with 16 hit points, for a total of 23 models in the unit. The unit is the unfortunate target of a meteor swarm spell(roll damage for all any overlapping areas as apply it ALL to the targeted unit), which the unit fails to make its saving throw against, causing 161 points of damage to the unit. 115 hit points of damage is enough to wipe out all of the 5 h.p. Orc troopers and deal 5 points of damage to each character, with remaining damage to be divided among the three characters. The character with the lowest remaining hit points is the Sergeant(11 hit points left), so each character then takes 11 further hit points of damage, accounting for 33 hit point of the remaining damage, which is enough to kill the Sergeant. Now it is the Witch doctor who has the fewest hit points left(3 h.p.), so both he and the War Leader now take 3 points of damage each, killing the Witch Doctor. The remaining 7 hit points of damage are now applied to the War Leader, reducing him to just 2 hit points. Surrounded by the scorched remains of every orc he marched to battle with, the Orc War Leader is almost guaranteed to emulate Sir Robin at this point. ;)

    Area spells are handled this way for one main reason- if they weren't, no unit would ever form up in closed formation, as it would basically be a death sentence for any unit small enough in size to fit fully within a 20' radius(an 8" diameter circle), which most any closed formation units will fit within. It's a fantasy game, so you want magic to have an effect, yet still not be overly effective. To that end you don't want the magic to be so destructive that it is spell casters that rule the battlefield rather than warriors, or that spell casters are so destructive that, more often than not, each side will relegate their spell casters to holding their actions in hopes of dispelling enemy magic before it can annihilate their own forces. I have found that the above solution works very well in keeping every sort of unit or individual character(spell caster or no) relevant to the battlefield. Otherwise, in 3E+, quickened fireballs followed by additional fireballs would see armies vanish in a puff of smoke, in just a few rounds- GAME OVER! Sounds pretty lame, eh? So, these changes also go towards making the actual battle last longer than it takes just to set everything up in the first place! Laughing

    I use a similar damage method with missile troops. For example, a whole unit of 1st Level Warrior archers will fire at an enemy. When firing at an enemy in closed formation there are no penalties other than regular penalties for range. When firing at skirmishers, range penalties are doubled, or if at short range a -1 penalty is applied. Whole units of archers in closed formation more than two ranks deep can all fire at the enemy, with a penalty of -1 to hit(-2 vs. skirmishers), plus range penalties, but cannot do so at enemies in short range. A unit with bows of any kind may fire in two ranks at any enemy at any range as normal(they are still -1 to hit when shooting skirmishers). Roll to hit for all models and total the damage. Apply the damage, removing as many enemy models up to, but not going over, the damage rolled. For instance, a block of 20 archers with longbows in closed formation fire arcing shots at the above Orc unit, at medium range, causing 21 points of damage. 4 Orcs are removed as casualties, while 1 hit point of damage is recorded on the unit. I often use a die of some sort to show leftover damage on units. Damage to heroic character is handled as it is above for spells, with reflex saves being taken by them to avoid missile damage(which is of course still passed on to the unit the the character(s) succeeds in their special saving throw).

    Lastly, I handle heroic characters in a similar way. When a character attacks, their damage is dealt to the enemy unit as a whole as in the previous examples. In instances where characters come into contact with enemy characters, they may specifically target each other.

    Also, in very large combat I use "to hit" odds to speed up play. For instance, in the example above, the 1st level Warrior Archers would need to roll 17's to hit the Orcs AC of 6. Assuming that each of the 20 Archers roll one of the possible results to hit on a d20, those that would roll a 17, 18, 19, and 20 would hit. Therefor the Archers would hit 4 times and I would roll 4d8 damage for their longbows(for 3E+ games I would also roll again for the 20 to see if it was critical hit, and if so apply the additional damage to the enemy unit). The 4d8 resulted in 26 points of damage, killing 5 Orcs and records 1 hit point of damage on the unit.

    Units engaged in melee roll to hit for all unit members, dealing damage to each other as detailed above. Generally, units must check Morale at 25%, 50%, and 75% casualties(for large, individual models these are figured as a percentage of their total hit points). A unit that fails a Morale check when at 25% of its model count or less has lost its will to fight and is assumed to have broken and fled in any direction to get away from the enemy(i.e it is removed from play). The presence of heroic characters can offset this, and heroic characters can also choose to not flee with the unit and instead fight on -you guessed it- heroically! Cool They might instead be sticking around to fight on obstinately/stupidly too. Laughing

    That is just a taste, and I have more of this written down in a notebook, but you can see how you go about doing things using standard (A)D&D rules. It might sound a bit complex(mainly due to my lengthy explanation in order to convey exactly what I mean), but it really isn't. The best thing about it is that no conversion to another mass battles system is really required at all, just a modification of how various effects in the regular (A)D&D rules are applied to a battlefield setting.

    I have also used siege rules from 1E-3E books, and I have found that they all work well in conjunction with the system I have developed.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:13 am  

    WildCoaster,
    Thanks much. Bloody Ban was quite the character. I do think, to be fair, his reputation also derived from a keen sense of public relations on his part as well as his skill in the field. There were several other junior British commanders who were, in my opinion at least, as talented, though not so skilled at self-promotion (Maj Ferguson comes to mind). A fascinating contemporary of Tarleton was Light Horse “Harry” Lee, who is remembered today more for his famous son. His command, Lee’s Legion looked very similar to Tarleton’s Legion, even down to the uniforms, which had interesting consequences for a band of Carolina Loyalists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyle%27s_Massacre)

    I fully concur that the Conan soundtrack is appropriate for any medieval battle. Heck, it is appropriate for any even vaguely martial endeavor (I started listening to it while scripting Lanchester Laws for class). For the the horse and musket period, I think I am leaning toward the baroque (nothing says Age of Reason like a harpsichord or Corelli).

    In honor of Tarleton, I think the first battle I run shall be Cowpens…
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:19 pm  

    Tarleton,
    Poor old Patrick Ferguson, not the most Christian way to treat a body. Perhaps he should have taken that shot at Washington after all? Must confess ARW/AWI is not my personal favourite though, more a fan of Nicholson at the Kabul Gate or Napier in Abyssinia but as I am English that is hardly surprising. Happy

    I use a tape of fife and drum music for horse and musket games along with some French regimental marches CDs I picked up in Musée de l'Armée in Paris. I think baroque is a fine choice though- spot on! Will have to watch Barry Lyndon again now!

    Bringing it all back to Greyhawk though; you have to salute Commandant Osson with his dash and bravery- the JEB Stewart of the Greyhawk Wars. Sadly like with JEB bravery is just not enough….. Cry
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:44 am  

    I've got a friend from South Carolina with a family story that says an ancestor was captured by Tory militia under Ferguson's command. The militia were going to hang him, but Ferguson ordered that he be held as a prisoner. My friend lays flowers on Ferguson's grave occasionally as a way of saying thanks. I was always partial to Francis Marion as a young history geek. I remember thinking how funny it was when he was getting trashed in the British press just after Mel Gibson's The Patriot came out. Fair play I guess since I grew up reading about "Butcher" Tarleton and all the, from an American point of view, horrible stuff he did.

    Though I dislike much of the GH Wars, I agree with your assessment of Osson. He makes a fascinating fictional character.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:47 pm  

    Ferguson, or at least his corpse, got a bad deal…of course, the Watauga men did not appreciate his threat to burn out their families. I suspect that made it kind of personal to them as well. Overall, he had a reputation as smart officer who knew how to wage a counter-insurgency campaign. For him, however, time ran out before he could put much into practice.
    I think Tarleton really liked the idea of being an object of terror after Waxhaws (though that incident seems more like a confused act than a massacre), and played up the image of a merciless officer. The problem of course was that was exactly not the image that Cornwallis wanted for his army and it played right into American hands. Both the Watauga men and Danield Morgan’s troops were incited by it to the point where they considered offering “Tarleton’s Quarter” when they won their respective battles.
    As for the Patriot, I think I saw it when it was called Braveheart. As I understand, they just gave everyone muskets instead of swords.
    WildCoaster, so know Sir John Moore in Spain or Wolfe at Quebec?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:22 am  

    Still urinating on a body and defiling it is still a bit rich in my humble opinion but what do I know? My home of Liverpool was built on the tears and suffering of slavery and even had a statue to Tarleton till 1943 and still has a street named after him. I know about Tarleton Quarter and think actions like that are just stupid. It was hardly the brightest and best of campaigns for England. Trying to direct a war from the other side of the Atlantic in the age of sail wins no prizes especially with Spain and France against you too! I must confess not really my area of interest though- funny that…. Embarassed

    I must say I am not a big fan of Mr Gibson with his callous disregard for historical accuracy. I mean at the Battle of Stirling Bridge there actually was a bridge but then I could go on and on of my love for him.

    Sir John Moore in Spain, please do not get me started on Napoleonics though and yes I do have a soft spot for the Heights of Abraham and generally anything that involves a good old fashioned tussle with the French.

    Just going to the GH Wars. It is just the dullness of it for me. I do not know how others feel but it is too bland and with the exception of Osson that is.

    I have got my Greyhawk little campaign game this time next week so am all excited.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:05 am  

    Not a big fan of Gibson, for numerous reasons, though I think he has matured into a good director. I've given up a long time ago on historical inaccuracies in most film, so that usually doesn't bug me much anymore. The most annoying thing to me in Braveheart was the break in character by interjecting the romance with Isabella. It took the theme of the undying love Wallace had for his wife and threw it out the window. Yech! A film I really enjoyed despite all the historical inaccuracies was the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven (Not the almost unwatchable theatrical release).

    So tell us a little about your campaign, WildCoaster. I'm assuming it's set in your namesake? I usually centered my GH campaigns on that area, although my current 4e campaign, which started out as the update to their Keep on the Borderlands has been quietly ported into western Sterich. It's been fun gradually revealing little bits of GH lore to the players, though I'm having to tweak some things to fit in some of the 4e core elements, and I'm also changing the history a little to suit my tastes.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 409


    Send private message
    Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:21 am  
    Companion Rules

    Any one ever compare Battle System to the War Machine rules? I've never used either.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:21 pm  

    WildCoaster wrote:
    Just going to the GH Wars. It is just the dullness of it for me. I do not know how others feel but it is too bland and with the exception of Osson that is.


    The GH Wars is painted in very broad strokes, with few details mentioned in any sort of meaningful degree. Osson is the only thing which is really covered, and even that is not detailed very much(i.e. few to no battle accounts). It is up to us to add the details, if we wish to. Four events that I would love to write up and run as campaign events is the fall of Admundfort, its eventual rise from the clutches of Iuz/Vayne), the Siege of Chendl, and the Battle for Celene Pass. Of course that all goes to my own campaign which was strongly focused in the central portion of the Flanaess, with Iuz, the Horned Society, and the scum of the Pomarj/Wild Coast as the main antagonists of the players' characters.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:34 pm  

    The events in the Wars that took place in the Great Kingdom seemed to get better treatment; maybe because of the content in Ivid the Undying? Maybe too it was more like a "real" war. I've always had a strong dislike for Iuz's whole Great God of the North ploy. Other content I enjoyed were Gygax's "From the Sorceror's Scroll" articles that detailed some of the military actions leading up to the wars, and the RJK "Greyhawk's World" articles that seemed to be a continuation of those. I seem to remember a thread where someone was planning on using Furyondy's naval raid on Dorakka in 578(?), from one of those articles, as the setting for an adventure.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:08 am  

    Quote:

    The GH Wars is painted in very broad strokes, with few details mentioned in any sort of meaningful degree. Osson is the only thing which is really covered, and even that is not detailed very much (i.e. few to no battle accounts). It is up to us to add the details, if we wish to.


    Well good luck with that, if you decide to have a bash at it. Happy
    Please excuse my vulgar colloquialism but in my humble opinion, “you cannot polish a turd”.

    But what the hell do I know? Confused

    If anyone can do it I am sure it would be you guys.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:54 am  

    As regards the Vatun-Stonefist-Tenh phase of the war, I find your vulgar colloquialism to be very apt. Smile
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:54 pm  

    Yes, that bit is the worst.

    As to polishing a turd, detailing a battle as an exciting encounter is a worthwhile endeavor. I've already done so once with a humanoid incursion from the Pomarj into the Welkwood. That one was just a few hundred individuals per side, but after running that scenario in a single game session, I could see how the principles I used could be applied to something on the scale of thousands of individuals per side.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:04 am  

    lIs that example of an incursion posted anywhere or available to read Cebrion? If so I would be very interested in seeing it? I am not against chronicling battles or encounters at all just some of the GHW ones are not inspiring but after reading GHW again I must agree that there are some interesting gems after all. Fair does on that one.

    My least favourite bit in GHW is the Scarlet Brotherhood deploying their jungle savage troops outside of their jungles-‘cos of course they would be really effective infantry in their loincloths and with their deadly jungle weaponry on a pseudo-European battlefield.

    smillan_31, I took the liberty of posting a bit about my own wee little game on the journal thread as I thought it a more appropriate place than clogging up this thread.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4336

    It is nothing to write home about but as you asked…..
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:14 am  

    That incursion is only on paper, but I know that I still have it.

    As to the whole SB thing, I agree completely. The SB feature in my campaign as a seldom seen adversary, but the players are inordinately afraid of them, as they never know when they'll show up. Wink That whole attack on Gradsul surely must have looked like some hokie Hollywood version of D-Day set in Greyhawk- complete with drop ramp landing craft made of lashed together logs no doubt. Laughing Well, maybe not, but I'm still not a fan of what occurred. The campaign against the Iron League and the Sea Barons is much more to my taste, but still not exactly on target. In my opinion, the SB would be worming its way into places of influence and pitting nation against nation through cunning subterfuge and set-ups. It's a great way to not have to sacrifice all sorts of resources fighting a war against nations who have no intentions of declaring war against you to begin with. Plus, the SB still then has the option of plausible deniability. "How horrible that our former ambassador went rogue and sought to answer some personal grievance against your nation by inciting your neighbor to attack you. You can rest assured that we will conduct a thorough investigation of the matter, and take steps to insure that this will not ever happen again." Laughing

    Beyond that, the SB could engage in Imperialism without much trouble in many instances, once the Greyhawk Wars had weakened the resistance capabilities of suitable targets. That is the SB of my campaign. Cool

    Anyways, enough of that. Back to wargaming, though still related to the SB. I have run a few seaborne conflicts as well, though nothing on the level of fleet engagements. These took place between Hepmonaland the Onnwal(3 smaller SB vessels ambushed a heavily armed Onnwalian merchant ship) and between the SB and the Sea Barons( 2 SB ships vs. three heavily armed Sea Baron raiders). While uncommon, such encounters make for a nice diversion from your usual wilderness adventure or dungeon crawl.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:39 am  

    Quote:
    The SB feature in my campaign as a seldom seen adversary, but the players are inordinately afraid of them, as they never know when they'll show up.

    Spot on, brilliant, exactly how it should be. Now that is a scary capable SB! The threat and fear of them achieving much more than the mere brutal application of violence. Happy

    Making your enemies fight pointless wars against each other expending valuable lives and treasure while you simply wait.

    Also ruling indirectly through proxies. Who cares what flag is flying as long as you control the govt and call the shots. If the populace think they are free and independent all the better as long as you know the truth.

    No insult intended, but for a real world example, the USA and USSR did just that successfully globally for decades during the cold war.

    Like you depiction of Gradsul Cebrion, sounds as cheesy as the French landing craft in the latest Robin Hood movie! Laughing

    Must confess I have never had the gumption to have a go at Naval warfare though. One of my PCs is a wizard and a fireball just seems to guarantee victory or at best mutually assured destruction. Might copy you though and try a more reasonable engagement.
    Quote:
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:07 pm  

    Someone has to defend the SB Wink

    Within the much maligned SB supplement - factions section.
    Initially the SB followed the course espoused by cebrion but korenth zan belongs to the strong arm faction that believes in direct action. This faction took power before the war hence the aggressive martial stance.

    Granted it is a convenient development to add another wartime foe but it does offer a reason. As hitler said about the invasion of the USSR "kick in the door and the house will collapse" supremacists tend to underestimate their opponents and overestimate their own forces.

    Since the martial reversals following the war strategem seems to be written as a middle ground. Military retrenchment and a return to the emphasis on covert activities.

    As to the wargames:
    Perhaps a series of adventures containing battle scenarios could be created. Such wartime adventures would provide a means to allow the characters to be become more invested in the war and hence its aftermath. Several players seem to feel disappointed that the war passed them by as it were.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:04 pm  

    WildCoaster wrote:
    My least favourite bit in GHW is the Scarlet Brotherhood deploying their jungle savage troops outside of their jungles-‘cos of course they would be really effective infantry in their loincloths and with their deadly jungle weaponry on a pseudo-European battlefield.

    smillan_31, I took the liberty of posting a bit about my own wee little game on the journal thread as I thought it a more appropriate place than clogging up this thread.


    Thanks for the link. The Scarlet Brotherhood bit is my second least favorite, but just by a nose. Besides the ridiculousness of it, I also thought it was a shame to change the character of the Brotherhood from a secret society that works through infiltration and assassination to one making open war. Kind of like turning Hassan-i Sabbah into Rambo.

    The only time I've ever used the Scarlet Brotherhood (Up until now where I'm working the Vermillion Queen into my 4e Sterich campaign - Evil Grin ) was a pirate attack at sea when the party was sailing from Prymp to Elredd.

    I'll add my vote for someday seeing Ceb's Pomarj skirmish as an article.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:05 pm  

    I actually made up a short list of named battles from GH wars and other sources. I will see if I can dig it up.
    The only battle that was detailed at all was the Battle of Celene Pass. For characters, there are really two ways I could see playing it. The first would be to simply play out the battle and have the characters do what they can on the scene by scouting out at night or setting traps and the like in front of the Defenders of right. While this could be played up along the lines of 300! or Zulu, I think the battle would best serve as background. Running the battle itself is somewhat challenging, as it is a series of human(oid)-wave attacks against a defense in depth. It has all the allure of refighting the Somme with lead soldiers. There is not much room for tactical cleverness in handling forces, more just determination and good die rolls.
    The second idea for the battle would be to have the characters play the messengers who are sent to get help (perhaps even the messenger the Celene elves claim never arrived?).
    I could see both as adventures for low-level characters (1-3?) who are serving as auxiliaries. If one uses the written material, it would be a good follow-on to Patriots of Ulek.
    As for the SB, I think the best historical model for them is Imperial Athens. They are essentially a maritime power that strikes at the periphery of the continent when there is an opportunity. While their army is generally not powerful, it is more of a police and occupation force, quite capable of facing down insurgents and bandits. However, the debacle in Idee vs. Ahlissa showed that they could not stand up to regular troops. I would also think the advance on Keoland through the Dreadwood and the attempted landing at Gradsul (I do not even want to know about the French landing craft) struck me as a little bizaare for a realistic group like the SB.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:09 am  

    You are limiting your thinking so far as the Battle for Celene pass is concerned. It isn't the Somme. It is so much more than that, and in way so much less. It also isn't Thermopylae, which others might also choose to make it simply because it would be easy to steal that idea. My group(and myself) have drifted away from playing D&D for while now, but it was very much my intention to play out not only the Battle for Celene Pass but the Siege of Chendl, and to that end I wrote up some preliminary notes for both while back. The Battle of Celene Pass is not as fully realized as is the Siege of Chendl(which in not complete either), as I meant to play it out second.

    As it doesn't matter whether my players were to stumble upon it(mainly as it is not completely detailed, and they will still need to accomplish the scenario goals anyways) here is the overview of my Siege of Chendl scenario, but a few caveats first-

    *The scenario is not designed to represent the whole siege, or even the most important area of it(obviously), but the PC's aiding in the breaking of the siege- not the most important aspect of the siege, yet still important to the overall defense of the city.
    *The scenario was deigned with two PC's in mind(Lazarus and Levon). Many of the PCs split up and returned to their homelands for the GH Wars. Some were to go on adventures of their own, or simply ride the war out, while for others I was in the process of creating special scenarios, like this one, for them.
    *The Iuzian units are not properly deployed on the map, nor are all of them present(I just wanted to get the map started).
    *The scenario is very much based upon what terrain and miniatures I have, and have built to a playable level.
    *The forces in the scenario have not been properly weighed so far as the overall difficulty of the scenario is concerned,. and is more a list of what I have available to use in the scenario. I do not consider this such an important thing, as "the timely arrival of reinforcements" of one side or another can help achieve the level of desperation on the part of the PC's that you are looking for.

    Here is the scenario rough draft:

    Scenario build-up for the PCs:

    Lazarus(with Squire Ranald) and Levon have journeyed further north into the lands of Furyondy, as they and a growing force of knights and men-at-arms move to aid in breaking the Siege of Chendl.

    During the journey north, the entire force comes under attack as they pass through a small village. The force is ambushed by a contingent of crack Iuzian troops, priests, a sorcerer, and a group of undead. Not only has the enemy penetrated deep into Furyondy, but the entire population of the village, now animated as zombies or charred skeletons, makes up much of the enemy force. The forces of good prevail, but they are horrified that the forces of evil have so fully penetrated into the lands of Furyondy, and that they are now forced to fight the desecrated remains of the very people they are sworn to protect. Rather than engender despair, the entire event further bolsters everyone’s resolve to see this great evil driven from the lands of the righteous.

    ***Lazarus and Levon continue their journey to Chendl along with the rest of the war party. ***

    The reinforcements now include the following:

    • Lazarus(12th level Paladin- Knight of Furyondy), mounted
    • Levon(14th level Invoker), mounted
    • Squire Ranald(Fighter 2/Paladin 4th), mounted
    • Prince Evan (the Duke of Willip’s eldest son- 7th level Fighter), mounted
    • 6th level Cleric of St. Cuthbert, mounted
    • (6) Ducal Guard (5th level Fighters- Knights), mounted
    • (10) 2nd level fighters(Light Cavalry- Squires), mounted
    • 6th level Fighter(Captain- Knight), mounted
    • (2) 3rd level Clerics, foot
    • (2) 3rd level Fighters(Sergeants), foot
    • (19) Men-at-arms, foot
    • (12) Archers, foot
    • (19) Spearmen, foot

    All forces are mounted, though certain units will ride their light horses near to the battle, dismount, and fight on foot as they are trained to do(for the purposes of this scenario, the horses of any friendly foot units are not anywhere near to the battle). The city defenders at this section of wall include the following:

    • 6th level Fighter(Captain), foot
    • 5th level Paladin, foot
    • 4th level Cleric, foot
    • 4th level Wizard, foot
    • (3) 3rd level Fighters(Sergeants), foot
    • (19) Archers, foot
    • (19) Halberdiers, foot
    • (19) Warriors, foot
    • (4) Light Ballistae & Crew, in towers
    • Cauldron of Greek Fire(10’ diameter full damage, + 5’ splash damage), 1 use; gatehouse
    • Ample supply of rocks upon the walls to drop on defenders near the walls(-2 to hit, 3d6 damage)
    • Defended barricades inside the city, behind the gates
    • The gates have been battered down to half strength from catapult fire
    _______________________________________________________________________

    The forces of good must contend with the following Iuzian forces:

    • 10th level Blackguard, mounted
    • 11th level Necromancer, foot
    • 5th level Necromancer, foot
    • 8th level Iuzian Cleric, foot
    • (3) 4th level Iuzian Clerics, foot
    • (5) 3rd level Ogre Barbarians, foot
    • (12) 5th level Fighters(heavy infantry)
    • (12) 5th level Fighters(heavy infantry)
    • 5th level evil Ranger(Feral Wardogs handler)
    • (20) Feral Wardogs
    • (19) Ghouls
    • (30) Skeleton Spearmen, foot
    • (30) Skeleton Warriors, foot
    • (40) Zombies, foot
    • 6th level Orc Fighter(Captain), foot
    • 5th level Orc Adept, foot
    • (20) 2nd level Orc Fighters(Heavy Infantry), foot
    • 3rd level Orc Fighter(Sergeant), foot
    • (20) Orc warriors, foot
    • (20) Kettite Mercenaries, foot
    • (20) Kettite Archers, foot
    • (8) Skeletal Knights(5th level fighters), mounted
    • (8) 6th level Fighters, mounted(“evil knights”)
    • (20) Orc Archers, foot
    • (20) Goblin Archers, foot
    • (1) Catapult & Crew
    • (1) Siege Tower

    Things the good guys must deal with are as follows:

    • Destroy/disable the battering ram so that it cannot break down the city gates.
    • Destroy/disable the siege tower.
    • Stop the ladder units from gaining the city walls, if possible.
    • Kill/drive off the enemy HQ.
    • Aid in defending any wall breach.
    • Keep Prince Evan from getting himself killed

    The numbers may seem overwhelming, but the good guys have the advantage of Levon. The evil necromancers and clerics have few area destruction spells, relying more on bolstering their troops, animating dead, and attempting to dispel the magic of any defending spell casters. They do however have some nasty surprises, which they will hold in reserve to use against enemy heroes. If protected, Levon will be able to wreak much havoc. Enemy forces will make a point to go after him as soon as he lights off his first destructive spell.


    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -


    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:11 pm  

    Battle of Celene Pass info:

    "Avoiding the large tracts of forest due north, Turrosh swung his armies northwest, down the ridge of the Lortmils between Celene and the County of Ulek. The gnomes, halflings, and dwarves of the hills fought with courage and skill, but many of the boldest and best trained soldiers were away in Furyondy. The orcs drove further northwest, virtually unopposed until they reached Celene pass. There a combined force of reservists-humans, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and even elves from Celene-made their stand.

    The Battle of Celene Pass was bloody and hard-fought. The advance scouts of the League of Right (as the defenders styled themselves) had just reached a sharp bend in the pass when they sighted the first orcs, advance scouts like themselves. By order of Rourk Splinterstone of the Ulek dwarves, the scouting party, no more than 200 strong, piled up a hasty barricade of dirt and stone-a wedge-shaped redoubt along the far side of the pass. Realizing his command was hopelessly outnumbered, Splinterstone dispatched runners under the cover of night to both Celene and Ulek. Though the messengers risked the dangers of the pass, unknowing whether the orcs roamed there as well, those who remained faced a grimmer fate. If the messengers were slain, or reached civilized lands too late for relief parties to effect a rescue, Splinterstone and his men could do nothing save fight to the bitter end.

    The first assault came under cover of darkness-a standard orc tactic. The attack was nothing more than a wild charge, an attempt to overwhelm the defenders by sheer numbers. Under Splinterstone’s cool command, though, the barricade held. Waves of orcs pounded the bulwark through the hours of darkness, only retreating with the dawn. The morning sun revealed a scene both stunning and horrifying: countless orc bodies lay in gory heaps before the rocky wall, as though adding their mass to the redoubt. The dwarven casualties, though far fewer, were still severe. Despite his troops’ dire need of rest, Splinterstone ordered a second and even a third wall erected behind the first.

    For the next three days, the Defenders of Right clung to their rocky position against wave after wave of orcs and goblins. When the relief column from Ulek finally arrived, the grim troops were astonished to find Splinterstone and 30 of his men still alive, tenaciously holding the pass behind the last redoubt. The relief force’s commander had long since given then up for dead. For his bravery, Rourk Splinterstone received a small barony, and his troopers were gratefully pensioned for the remainder of their lives.

    Rourk’s defense halted the orcish advance. Once again the Despot of the Pomarj broke off his attacks, this time to deal with rebellious chieftains back home. Though Turrosh Mak could yet hold his empire together, further expansion would have to wait."

    ---Greyhawk Wars Boxed Set


    As I don't want to type any more, and for other reasons, I'll stop there. Other than for the Battle of Emridy Meadows, this turns out to be one of the more detailed battles described throughout the entirety of Greyhawk lore. Now, I really hate the lazy, cut-n-paste aspect of some things, cough-Rourke-cough, but what can I say? Some people seem to have an appreciation for such "cleverness", though I am not one of them.

    Anyways, I ended up making a few modifications to the above information for my own campaign(none of which is featured in the above text- that is the original, unaltered text from the GHW boxed set). My changes mainly involved the dwarves' specialty- mining, and a change in the dwarf leader's first name of course. Wink I also added a few more details so far as to unique individuals are concerned(and no, none of the gnomes are named "Cyrano" or "Ziggy" either!), including a few of the PCs/NPCs from my campaign. If I do post anything on what I did, I'll try and remember to note any thing that is a change or addition. I still need to locate those notes. I did type up some preliminary notes for the few PCs and NPCs that would be taking part in the battle, or that will be connected to it, as the case may be. If I find everything, perhaps I will take the time to finish typing it up and post it.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -


    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:16 pm  

    Nice, Cebrion, very nice. I, for one, am very grateful -- not having the Greyhawk Wars Boxed Set. Its very much appreciated. Thanks again. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:33 pm  

    Ditto here Cebrion Wink

    I have the boxed set and also eagerly await updates.

    I hope others flesh out various aspects to make the wars seem more real rather then here is what happened...players want heroes and fools to measures themselves it is easier to engage them. The battle scenarioes need not well defined to be viable given the talent on the board I trust several members to create such scenarios moreso then WoC.

    Query; The battle scenario will it also encompass a min-adventure that would allow DMs to interject their players into the scenario?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:34 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Query; The battle scenario will it also encompass a min-adventure that would allow DMs to interject their players into the scenario?


    Emphasis mine. The DM is always "allowed" to do whatever they want to. Like a friend of mine's license plate frame used to say "Because I'm the DM." Laughing

    Beyond that, wow, you are a greedy lot! A scenario is nice and all, but could you write it up in adventure form? Laughing No. I have three adventures underway(and they have been underway for a few years now- I am horrible! Razz). Well one of them is a 3-part offering more in line with the Greyhawk super-module, but the other two are more normal in size(20-30 page old school format). I have notes on 5 more, give or take.

    If I post another battle scenario, that is all it will be. Like me, you will have to find a reason to get the PCs to the locale. I find that involving the characters personally in great events, even if it is only in a minor way, is the best way to suck players into the action, such that they will play their characters to the edge of survivability, such that you will usually end up with an heroic, epic story being told. At lower levels, characters can be scouts for armies, and at mid-level they can take on a role similar to that of Special Forces. At higher levels, the characters can take on the role of battlefield leaders, and they should, as at that level they may have much more to lose(i.e. they are hooked into the local rulers or are the locale rulers). For warrior-types this makes sense, but it also makes sense for a priests to be leading units of zealous followers too. Rogues can lurk within units of foot-slogging chum, ready to suddenly leap out and slay an enemy champion, or skirt a battlefield, looking for a weak point where they can wreak havoc; perhaps leading some scouts/skirmishers in such an endeavor. As to wizard-types, well they are most often going to serve as artillery, and they will always have a role to play. Regardless of the character type, there will be something for them to do in a large battle.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:17 am  

    Fair enough Ceb

    Though it never hurts to ask..beg...grovel...

    I just can not believe the perfectionist cebrion is going to allow his magnificent idea to be warped due to laziness. Where is the fire in the blood - the hunger in the soul?

    I guess the creative juices wane as some age - did I forget to mention taunt? - oink oink Wink
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
    Posts: 594


    Send private message
    Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:36 pm  

    I am incorporating TLG's Fields of Battle set into my next game. Its rules for mass scale combat are pretty well done. They are made for people who do not like to mess around with it too much. Plus, they "drop" right into the normal game, so you can place PC's in battle right along side a unit of soldiers and not have to worry about playing him any different. There are also rules of incorporating your hero into a unit causing the whole unit to become more powerful.

    It deals with sizes, equipment type, and scale for soldiers. There is a simple matrix for making one miniature represent multiple ones.

    My C&C game is heavily mixed with AD&D anway, so it runs great without any tweaking. Any game system that uses HD, though, really would have to do VERY little work to make it fit. That is by design, from what the author tells me.

    Use any miniatures or game system with HD (d20). Plus it comes with a ton of cut out chits and 3D paper model siege engines. Though if you really want your miniature war machines to be badass, go here: http://shop.warlordgames.co.uk/war-machines-47-c.asp

    There's not a whole lot prettier than a hilltop fort equipped with a scorpion aimed across the Ulek/Pomarj border.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:06 pm  

    Haha. The creative factor is not waning, nor the enthusiasm level, but the lack of time factor is more relevant. Also, I'm exploring Fallout: New Vegas at the moment. Yes, the lack of time factor has really been bad the last few days. Laughing

    Not to worry though, as I have no interest in World of Warcraft, and so wont' disappear completely. Wink
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:55 pm  

    Ceb, I liked the scenario you drew up for the relief of Chendl. I kind of figured in my campaign design (a hobby since I have not played in a decade) that it would be an 8-10th level adventure or so. The way I would use your scenario is to start off with the battle (in media res and the script an adventure for afterwards... perhaps chasing down one of the major enemies who escapes, or gatherin intelligence or being assigned a mission after the battle by the King.

    As far as the siege of Chendl itself, I had come up with the idea of it as a low-level adventure for players in the Vesve region. There is a short mention in GW how Iuz's army was slowed just enough by woodsmen and elves so that Chendl could prepare. In this case, it would be more a case of the characters skirishing with lead elements or possibly attacking the siege train before they retreated into Chendl itself (and met other noted defenders such as the Fellowship of the Torch).
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2003
    Posts: 200


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:19 am  

    As far as the SB goes. Perhaps they were using more direct involvement in the wars as a way of distracting everyone from what else they were really doing. Keep everyone distracted with a big fire while the little sparks start catching somewhere else. It could also be a way of distracting it's own people from what is going on back at home. As for Jungle troops being out matched, the Zulus did quite well against troops that had rifles. Don't discount ferocity and will. You are also making the erroneous assumption that the majority of Greyhawk troops would be well armored and equipped. Yet the majority would be peasant levies and lightly armored and poorly trained troops if we follow a medieval model. As for magic being a huge factor in battle, keep in mind that most mages will be countered or neutralized by their opposites number on the enemies side. Unless one sides mages are very weak or unskilled, I see very little actual magic that would tip the balance of battle going on. We played in a game where we were attacking a town that was heavily defended by the forces of good. So the first thing we did was send in assassins to take out as many spellcasters as they could to weaken the other side. That way our mages could overwhealm the enemy as we sent in the foot soldiers to do the actual fighting. That way the town was finally brought under the enlightened rule of it's new evil masters and was plundered and raped of all of it's people and resources. What a glorious day that was. LOL
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 02, 2010
    Posts: 14
    From: Cheshire, England

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:53 pm  

    As for the SB, Perhaps it was a huge distraction to draw attention away from other schemes, of course it could have been a huge balls up- but that is the wonderful thing with the SB you always have the luxury of rationalising whatever stupid arse thing they do as a mystery wrapped within an enigma. Personally I would hate that in a campaign as that would effectively make them infallible and that in turn would sap the will from players to oppose them and to live in general. Give me the lurking at the back but fallible SB any day.
    Quote:
    As for Jungle troops being out matched, the Zulus did quite well against troops that had rifles.

    The Zulus are the best of the best when it comes to indigenous native armies and overall did not do quite well- they lost.

    Even their greatest victory at Isandwhana was described by their king Cetewayo as if, “An assegai (Zulu spear) has been thrust into the belly of the Nation...there are not enough tears to mourn for the dead". At Ulundi they were slaughtered. In the very unbalanced colonial battlefield the rule is the western armed and trained win. There are exceptions, Isandlwana, Little Big Horn and Adowa leap to mind but all are also defensive victories not ones were the native forces are shipped over seas.

    The charming lads on page 23 of Greyhawk Wars, who look decidedly South American jungle dwelling, might be top draw troops in their tropical home but in Keoland or Idee are at best good skirmish infantry totally out of their surroundings. You are not going to win battles with that.

    I think the composition of medieval armies varies right through out, the not inconsiderable, time period that is medieval. There are some small very well equipped and trained armies in the Italian City Wars or the War of the Roses, for example, and also mass armies of levies too. One thing which virtually all medieval armies had to some degree was cavalry and that is one thing even the Zulus were scared of. Also have to look at Cortez and Pizarro’s success against the sophisticated and well organized empires of the Americas.
    Quote:
    As for magic being a huge factor in battle, keep in mind that most mages will be countered or neutralized by their opposites number on the enemies side. Unless one sides mages are very weak or unskilled, I see very little actual magic that would tip the balance of battle going on.

    Surely that is like removing artillery from a modern battlefield. If magic existed people would use it and adapt it to the battlefield environment. True you might match each other guns but then again you might not. Fantasy battles without magic are medieval battles (arguably with zulus, Aztecs, assassins etc.) but for me that takes half the difference and fun out of wargaming it.
    We did our Dec 27th table top wargame- 15mm miniatures with 15 regiments on one side and 18 on the other. We have a magic turn, use bless spells to raise morale and fireballs to damage units etc. It all seemed to go well but then again my group are wargamers too. If you are not it might well be easier to rationalise your battles with Lee Van Cleef led ninja assassins, or whatever works for you.

    I suppose it is really what works for your group. My group tends to be heroic or very mercantile about matters, it is not really in to much looting and rape but whatever floats your boat- I do hope it was not LARP mind you. Wink Wink

    Sorry VonBek I meant to ask is your log on name from the Moorcock character? I must confess to being quite a fan of his, all the best WC.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:09 pm  

    vonbek wrote:
    As for Jungle troops being out matched, the Zulus did quite well against troops that had rifles. Don't discount ferocity and will.


    To be brief, what the Zulus did accomplish, they accomplished with over-whelming numbers, not ferocity. When the British ran out of bullets . . . it was over.

    To demonstrate, I give you Francisco Pizarro and his 200 conquistadors versus Atahualpa's 80,000 Incas, a.k.a. "jungle troops." All those people speak Spanish today.

    Alexander the Great also faced over-whelming numbers but, like Pizarro, he came out on top. His superior tactics and better trained/armed troops versus the poorly trained and poorly armed Persian troops caused the fall of the Persian Empire.

    Smaller numbers of better trained and better armed troops have defeated superior numbers throughout our history. So the SB's "jungle troops" don't really impress me. I think that they "lose" every time when in an all out battle against the armored troops of the Flanaess.
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:33 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    vonbek wrote:
    As for Jungle troops being out matched, the Zulus did quite well against troops that had rifles. Don't discount ferocity and will.


    To be brief, what the Zulus did accomplish, they accomplished with over-whelming numbers, not ferocity. When the British ran out of bullets . . . it was over.


    ...and in any case, losing thousands(even tens of thousands) vs. hundreds is not "doing well". You might as well say that the Persians did well in piling up their dead at Thermopylae. Yeah, the hordes really "did well" in both cases. Weaponry and training was telling in the former, heavy armor and superior training in the latter, and fortified defensive positions was telling in both battles.

    As Keoland didn't have it resources drawn off to much, they would be free to unleash heavy cavalry and infantry on the lightly armed/armored SB troops, and such units would butcher them. Keoish battle magic would also be a telling factor.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:22 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Keoish battle magic would also be a telling factor.


    As you point out, given the animosity between them, I hardly think the Silent Ones would "sit still" while the Scarlet Brotherhood attempted a more direct assault against Keoland either.

    And that would be some real "battle magic" there. Wink
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:02 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    Ceb, I liked the scenario you drew up for the relief of Chendl. I kind of figured in my campaign design (a hobby since I have not played in a decade) that it would be an 8-10th level adventure or so. The way I would use your scenario is to start off with the battle (in media res and the script an adventure for afterwards... perhaps chasing down one of the major enemies who escapes, or gathering intelligence or being assigned a mission after the battle by the King.


    I considered that, but ultimately decided that it would be anticlimactic, so I set things up the other way. The Siege of Chendl is what is supposed to end up being the high point of adventure events that lead up to it. I mean, come on, how are you really going to one-up a massive siege battle which you will likely play out over the course of weekend with hundreds of miniatures and terrain? Razz If the characters fail spectacularly in the siege, then I guess you need to go on to something else as a back-up plan.

    Ah yes, one other note for the Siege of Chendl. Though I never wrote down the particulars, any goals that the PCs are able to accomplish will affect the background events in both subtle and unsubtle ways. If the PCs do well then nobody important is likely to die, less casualties will be sustained in their area of the battle, etc. Overall, how the PC's do will affect things elsewhere, or at least set the tone. We know that Chendl did not fall, and, as I don't want it to, it won't. Wink However, the degree to which the city gets ravaged, who dies or is injured(bit players and others), or which important sites are damaged/destroyed will be in direct correlation to how well the PC's do at their assigned tasks. Alluding to this as a DM to your players gives them some additional impetus to rally get stuck into the fight. In the aftermath of things, you make it known to them, such as:

    A priest of Rao approaches you. "I saw you hold the line when the gates came crashing down. That you forced back the invaders allowed for us to heal many of the wounded who would have otherwise died. The blessings of Rao be upon you."

    And yes, that there lowly priest might some day be able to help the PCs out in some way, ans in such ways are possibly farther reaching plot strings crafted and left to dangle. I keep all of my game notes, and make notations of oddball things like this on them, because you never know when you will be able to use them. Wink Rewards could be handed out, and reputations be made...or not in such a large and important scenario. One final note: it is of course great if Chendl is a place you have featured in your campaign prior to the siege, such that the PCs are somewhat familiar with it and its denizens, both high and low. That adds an extra level of meaning to all the little things you put into the scenario. Cool
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -


    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:02 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    In the aftermath of things, you make it known to them, such as:

    A priest of Rao approaches you. "I saw you hold the line when the gates came crashing down. That you forced back the invaders allowed for us to heal many of the wounded who would have otherwise died. The blessings of Rao be upon you."

    And yes, that there lowly priest might some day be able to help the PCs out in some way . . . I keep all of my game notes . . . because you never know when you will be able to use them . . . One final note: it is of course great if Chendl is a place you have featured in your campaign prior to the siege, such that the PCs are somewhat familiar with it and its denizens, both high and low. That adds an extra level of meaning


    Nice points, Cebrion. something to keep in mind. Thanks! Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:53 pm  

    As to the Battle of Celene Pass, I do not have it set up as a hasty defense at all, but a carefully fortified area to be fallen back to and defended as a last resort. The forces of good harry the enemy for as long as they can, buying time for whatever reinforcements/fortifications to be put into place as there can be. One thing that I can think of that draws some parallels to this is the "Alamo" scenario at the end of Saving Private Ryan. Of course I am not one for "phoning it in" by cut-n-pasting Rorke's Drift into GH. rolleyes Razz
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
    Posts: 594


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:51 am  

    Here is something good for ya'll. I remember watching this show back a few years ago--it really is the best of the documentary programs. It never leaves you hanging like pretty much everything the history channel produces does.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_zulu/index.html

    Secrets of the Dead is the show, and much of the time you can watch the eps for free on their website.

    This episode is about the Zulu wars and discovers that they imbibed cacti that functioned similar to PCP. Good times.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.50 Seconds