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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Suss Forest
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    The Suss Forest
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:09 am  
    The Suss Forest

    Creating a sidetrek for the upcoming postfest and was wondering about the lost city of the Suel, mentioned in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, situated in the Suss Forest.

    I am thinking of tying it in to my Greyhawk Shakeup campaign, eventually but first I have a few questions.

    Anyone have any information on this lost city, if it exists at all?

    Secondly, I am struggling to tie Incabulos to any racial group. I was told he is the child of Beory but is also revered by the Suel under a different name.

    Any help is much appreciated. Happy
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:14 am  

    I don't know much about the gods, but the Lost City of the Suel in the Suss Forest was mentioned as far back as the 1984 World of Greyhawk boxed set. It should not be a forest-covered collection of ziggarauts, as an Olman city would be, but what architectural designs you decide to use otherwise are up in the air. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:33 am  

    According to this he is part of the Suloise Pantheon

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2009/10/suloise-pantheon.html
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:28 am  
    Re: The Suss Forest

    warlock wrote:
    Secondly, I am struggling to tie Incabulos to any racial group. I was told he is the child of Beory but is also revered by the Suel under a different name.


    Incabulos is a "common" deity, which means he's been worshiped by most ethnic groups at one time or another. He's not tied to any single culture, but is instead a reoccurring motif in every pantheon throughout history.

    This is what I have written about him (which is to say, it's unofficial; I know Maldin interprets Incabulos's "common" status as meaning his faith is a relatively recent arrival on Oerth, only appearing with the Invoked Devastation):

    Incabulos is one of the most hated of all deities, his evil and malice matched by few indeed. Almost all other gods consider him to be a monster that should be eradicated; even other evil deities have no love of the Father of Sickness. Were it not for his insidious strength and power he would long ago have been slain by a coalition of powers opposed to his doings.

    Incabulos is said by the Flan to be the child of Beory; he ripped his way out of his mother's womb and proceded to inflict havoc on her surface. As the patron of UnBalance, he was responsible for overpopulation, plagues which endangered whole species, sickly forests that burnt to ash at their first encounter of a spark, still ponds breeding monstrosities, endless famines and all manner of other maladies and travesties of the circle of Life. His younger sibling Obad-hai, patron of Nature's Balance, was created to set things aright, and the two have been bitter enemies ever since.

    According to traditional Oeridian theology, Incabulos is the Ill Wind, bearer of all accursed plagues and manifestations. Working with the Court of Chaos, he slew the Oerid's oerth goddess Oeridia while she was still pregnant with the brothers Celestian and Fharlanghn.

    The Suel churches reckon him as far older, one of the bizarre entities to crawl out of the primordial void before Time. As such, he is as old or older than Lendor, the Ancient of Days himself. Even the power-hungry Suel dared not establish major temples to this foul menace.

    Incabulos wears a black, horribly ragged cloak trimmed in green and lined with orange which blows about in the absence of wind, as does his hair. His face is a pallid, sickly blue covered in pockmarks and tumors that end in random horns and tendrils. His eye sockets are completely black with tiny sparks like maddened stars. His hands are long and skeletal and his body is twisted and deformed, almost doubled over, with peeling scales, plaguemarks and running sores that resemble extra mouths and eyes.

    Incabulos is supposed to have created the hordlings; nightmarish creatures with bizarre, surrealistic shapes infesting his plane of Hades. As patron of night hags, he is the consort of the hag goddess Cegilune. Cegilune has Flannish features covered with cancerous, craterlike tumors and is associated with the darkest phase of the moon Luna. The two lovers look much alike.


    And this wasn't my idea, but Immaculate Image on the Greytalk mailing list suggested that the Baklunish know Incabulos under the name Sevelkhar the Waster.

    Immaculate Image wrote:
    It should be noted that Incabulos is known to the Bakluni as Sevelkhar the Waster, Master of Famine and Drought, the Poisoner of Wells. In the Bakluni culture, Sevelkhar is the eternal opponent of Geshtai, and both are viewed as subservient to Istus, Our Lady of Fate. This is contrary to actuality of course, as Incabulos is one of the few Greater Powers of the Flanaess, an equal of Istus, and vastly more powerful than Geshtai, a Lesser Power.


    As for the Lost City of the Suel, there's an article on it at the Wizards of the Coast website: Here. I've also heard suggestions of using module B4, The Lost City, to represent the Lost City of Ancient Suloise (replacing the desert in the module with the Suss).

    Gord the Rogue explores the lost Suel city in the novel Artifact of Evil.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:51 pm  

    Thanks for the help guys!

    Definitely going to check out B4, thanks Rasgon. Thanks for the link Rory.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:31 pm  

    DarkHerald wrote:
    According to this he is part of the Suloise Pantheon

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2009/10/suloise-pantheon.html


    No, that is a list of deities worshipped in areas where there are Suel, not that all of those deities are from the Suel Pantheon.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:41 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    DarkHerald wrote:
    According to this he is part of the Suloise Pantheon

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2009/10/suloise-pantheon.html


    No, that is a list of deities worshipped in areas where there are Suel, not that all of those deities are from the Suel Pantheon.


    The main heading of the article said Suloise Pantheon, with the following paragraph;

    First, some numbers. There are 48 deities in total (owing to the large number of Gods who are unique to the Suel pantheon); 31 are male and 17 are female. 38 have some element of neutrality in their alignment, while only 12 are lawful and 14 are chaotic. 20 are good and 7 are evil.

    There are some interesting duplications here, now that the Suel-only deities are included. Xerbo is almost entirely superfluous, with Zichus covering money and business, and Procan covering the seas. Magic is doubly represented by Boccob and Wee Jas, whose other sphere of influence-- death-- is also covered by Nerull.


    Which lead me to believe that he was part of it. Checking my original Greyhawk boxset, Incabulos was part of the original default gods that Gary created.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:45 pm  

    Yes I play Incabulos as FC Flan but commonly known and worshipped by all races. I like your version Rasgon and agree with it whole heartedly.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:56 pm  

    My computer froze up in the midst of editing that. Fixed that post in all places.

    As to the Greyhawk Gods list, yes, Incabulos is a part of the original list, but you will note that he is listed as "C", meaning "common in most areas". He is not specifically a Suel deity, only worshiped in most places(well, acknowledged in most places at the least). The title of the article is certainly misleading, as based on the title and list one may think that every deity on the list is of Suel origin when clearly they are not. Most cultures will have myths about Incabulos, and they will be told in such a way to fit in with the pantheon of deities that they worship.

    That article is somewhat odd in stating that the Suel Gods are out-classed by other gods, when it seems that the Suel gods can instead do more with less, meaning they are more influential/powerful. Who's more powerful, the god of ALL winds, or just one of the four gods that can only handle a single wind? It takes 4 Oeridian wind gods to form the Oeridian Voltron wind god, while Phaulkon only needs himself. Marginalized indeed. Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:24 am; edited 2 times in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:00 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    My computer froze up in the midst of editing that. Fixed that post in all places.


    Must be running Windows Vista Razz

    Yes I saw later that he has the C next to his name that is whay I checked the original boxset Wink


    Last edited by DarkHerald on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:59 am  

    What happened is Joe Bloch (Greyhawk Grognard) combined both the list of common deities with the list of Suel deities to create a single unified list of all the gods the Suel are likely to worship. But not all of those gods are of specifically Suel origin. Incabulos is no more Suel than he is Oeridian or Baklunish or Flan or elven or dwarf or halfling or medusa or goblin or night hag. Instead, he's known and feared by all these races. If you look at Bloch's other lists of gods, I'm sure you'll see Incabulos on the Oeridian list and the Flan list as well.

    "Common" doesn't mean that Gary Gygax didn't create them, just that they're worshiped in most areas of the world Gygax created.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:20 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    "Common" doesn't mean that Gary Gygax didn't create them, just that they're worshiped in most areas of the world Gygax created.


    That was my understanding ....
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:36 pm  

    you might also wish to tell the tale of how this:


    turned into this:
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:50 pm  

    Aeolius, the best justification I read was that sussuri were spirits who created themselves corporeal forms from whatever materials were available. In 2nd edition's Monstrous Compendium Fiend Folio Appendix, they were made of bamboo.

    That would have some utility in your underwater campaigns. Imagine sussuri made from coral, kelp, fish skeletons, or pieces of hag flesh.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:03 pm  

    I explained the 3e version by saying they were made of amber and petrified wood... artistic license and whatnot, with the Bizarro Silver Surfer image, there. ;)
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:11 pm  

    As for the lost city of the Suel, a couple of Howard stories dealing with this theme are The Devil in Iron, Jewels of Gwahlur, and Xuthal of the Dusk. The latter, shall we say, is the "inspiration" for B4.

    Each of these stories deals with a lost city in a unique but compelling way.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:19 pm  

    Howard's Red Nails would be a good fit too.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:38 pm  

    Having thought about this a bit more, I seem to recall a very old Dungeon Magazine adventure that took place in the Lost City of the Suel (or maybe it was another city like it).

    I remember a dead adventurer that seemed to have come from nowhere until the party looks up and discovers a Cloud Giant castle in a cloud directly overhead. After searching through the castle in the sky, the party continues their trek along a river until the find a ruined city full of Duergar, Derro, Pygmies, or something like it.

    I seem to be remembering this adventure having a jungle/Africa-like setting, though, so it may not have been the city you are interested in after all. Never-the-less, if you can find a copy, it may offer some ideas or, at least, some ideas you don't want to duplicate. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:41 pm  

    The jungle setting puts me in mind of Howard's Queen of the Black Coast setting. No castle in the clouds, but it has a winged monster. Wink

    And a Lost City, of course. Evil Grin
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:39 pm  

    There's a map for sale and scant information on what may or may not be the Lost City of the Suel in GH Adventures p116.

    Gord and companions spend some time searching for it in AoE.

    Finally, I think I remember reading something about corrupt descendants of the Lost City living in Badwall or there being some kind of connection there, but I can't recall.

    Also of note is RJK's Dark Druids - not directly related to this topic, but an excellent adventure full of creepy woodland atmosphere and terrifying encounters. Originally located in the Gnarley and worth mining for inspiration!

    SirXaris wrote:
    Having thought about this a bit more, I seem to recall a very old Dungeon Magazine adventure that took place in the Lost City of the Suel (or maybe it was another city like it).


    You're probably thinking of the nearby Ruins of Nol-Daer detailed in Dungeon #13.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:26 pm  

    Mystic Scholar,

    I guess I missed those two (Queen of the Black Coast and Red Nails, though the latter always made me thing of something more Olman/Mayan, it still would work well.

    An interesting twist that comes to mind is the Roanoke colony and Rungholt. Perhaps the actual Suel City is not a city. Perhaps the actual settlement was only a small outpost or settlement founded by fleeing survivors of the Rain of Coloreless Fire. Perhaps it was a small town, which would still have been an impressive settlement to the native Flan of the time.. And then suddenly, everyone dissapears. Maybe their is a cryptic message left behind ("Croatoan" or the Suel equivalent) or perhaps not.

    An idea as to why it is still hidden could be that the river has shifted. Perhaps the city is now under a river or buried in silt. Perhaps the elves did not like having the Suel around, and used the river to solve the problem.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:31 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    Perhaps it was a small town, which would still have been an impressive settlement to the native Flan of the time.. And then suddenly, everyone disappears.


    Nice thought. Or, like in Red Nails, the civilization decayed to the point of turning on itself.

    But as you know, in Queen of the Black Coast in was more a result of evolution. I don't think Greyhawk's Lost City could be quite that old. Wink

    I enjoy your posts, Tarelton. And you're correct, Queen of the Black Coast is best suited for the Amedio, or Hepmonaland. Cool
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:15 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    As for the lost city of the Suel, a couple of Howard stories dealing with this theme are The Devil in Iron, Jewels of Gwahlur, and Xuthal of the Dusk. The latter, shall we say, is the "inspiration" for B4.

    Each of these stories deals with a lost city in a unique but compelling way.


    Don't forget the majority of the Solomon Kane stories take place in Africa with lost civilizations. A must read for any sort of Jungle or lost city style adventures.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:12 pm  

    As usual, awesome feedback - thanks guys!

    I have an idea of a small temple dedicated to Incabulos in the Suss, overseen by a wicked, if somewhat pitiful priest that has an interesting past. The temple guards a magic item sacred to the foul god and waiting for unwary adventurers to find it. My idea is that the priest will be sacrificed by his deity, in order for the magical item to be allowed to be "let loose" on an unsuspecting Oerth. I'm thinking to locate the temple near the lost city of the Suel, which can be expanded upon to further the campaign, if required.

    The Suss is a dark, dreary place according to the LG Gazeteer. I equate it to the forest in the Hobbit, where Bilbo encounters the spiders. I think setting the right mood is very important within the forest.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:50 am  

    One of these years, I will get around to running my all-animal game set in the Suss... Nature of the Beast . I've only had it in the back-burner for over a decade, now. ;)

    I envision the ruins therein to be a cross between the Houses of the Old Ones (Gelfling ruins in The Dark Crystal) and the pyramid filled with malevolent foliage in "The Ruins".
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:15 am  

    warlock wrote:
    The Suss is a dark, dreary place according to the LG Gazeteer. I equate it to the forest in the Hobbit, where Bilbo encounters the spiders. I think setting the right mood is very important within the forest.


    That would be the Myrkwood. Aptly named. Happy

    SirXaris
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:44 am  

    ...hmmm... I like the new look.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:17 pm  

    Another couple of ideas are some of H. Rider Haggard's stories. (Alan Quartermain and She come to mind. However, these are mostly set in 19th century Africa. Another twist is that the lost Suel city is not in the Suss, but underneath Badwall? Historically, many ancient cities have been built over numerous times. Troy is the best examples, with 9 Troy buried beneath the Roman city of Ilium, one on top of the other, until unconvered by Schliemann in the 19th century. The simple fact is that good site for settlements are too valuable to ignore, even if the previous incumbant met an unfortunate end.

    So... back to the lost city of the Suel. The city might have been destroyed by any number of calamities instantly or over a long period. The locals eventually drifted back and used the ruins as foundations to build again. This process could have repeated itself several time, and the legend could have sprung up of the original citiy being in the Suss to explain why no one could find it.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:30 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    The city might have been destroyed by any number of calamities instantly or over a long period. The locals eventually drifted back and used the ruins as foundations to build again. This process could have repeated itself several time..


    "Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. "
    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:50 pm  

    Or, perhaps the Suss was once much larger than it is today and covered more of what is now the Wild Coast, including the current location of Badwall...

    SirXaris
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:43 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    The city might have been destroyed by any number of calamities instantly or over a long period.

    I read this as "...destroyed by any number of catamites..." which brings a whole new (and Biblical) spin on things....
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:56 pm  

    Nellisir, that would only have been after the plague of froghemoths.

    Sir Xaris, that is an excellent idea.
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