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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk Trade Routes
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    Greyhawk Trade Routes
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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    Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:16 am  
    Greyhawk Trade Routes

    What are the significant trade and travel routes of the World of Greyhawk and why do they exits? Are they generally known or are routes the secret of various trading companies, merchant guilds and nations? Responses of both canonical and home-brew trade routes would be appreciated.

    In responding to a post on travel at night, I started looking up trade routes and became intrigued as I read about pre-modern transport. Ancient Persia had its messenger networks. The Roman Empire not only had its road system, but its maritime trade apparently operated at 1/60th the cost of land transport. Later there were the pilgrimage routes of the middle ages, maritime trade by the Hanseatic League along with contested maritime trade between Genoa and Venice. Later, during the age of exploration nautical charts could amount to state secrets.

    How are such things handled in Greyhawk? What is the effect of magic? Bulk cargo (like the annual grain fleet from Egypt to feed ancient Rome) can't all be shrunk down magically or teleported and still be cost effective? Or can it? At what point does a group decide its time to put in a permanent magical portal or use magic to outright make an item?

    Thank you for your responses.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am  

    The Great Kingdom has the magical Dirawaen roads, described in Ivid the Undying.

    "A notable special case are the magical roads, the dirawaen in Old Oeridian, crafted by combat mages using earth elementals they otherwise commanded in battle. With special weather-resistant magics woven into their crafting, these roads made travel and provisioning much easier for the Oeridian invaders."

    "...the dirawaen roads provided superb highways for merchants to travel with great wagon convoys"

    "some trade continues. It is mostly restricted to the major waterways of the lands, and also to the dirawaen roads"


    There's a fan created map of major roads here, one of several maps found on this site.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:01 am  

    The Great Kingdom eludes to a fine road system, magical one in some areas, most reminiscent of rome. As GK influence spread so would there roads. The state of current decay would depend on the regional lords as the GK contracted. Great trade fairs still occur within the GK and elsewhere so international trade exists. Other powerful states like keoland would maintain roads and trade with the states surrounding it as well.

    Dyvers and greyhawk thrive in part to baklunish caravans and then act as middlemen for eastern markets as distant as eastfair and rel astra. Thornward is considered the baklunish gateway for baklunish goods entering the flanaess. Within the gazetteer for "beyond the flanaess" the ultimate source for these exotic goods is the Celestial Imperium.

    Sea routes exist between the Azure and Solnor hence the SB trade blockade, Apparently profitable and stable ones as the various trading nations are determined to break the blockade though until then grudgingly pay the tolls. Which must be substantial as the SB grow rich from them and have assigned significant recources both land and naval to sustain the blockade.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:43 am  

    I believe it was the initial Living Greyhawk Gazatteer that mentioned that the City of Greyhawk was building a permanent road toward Dyvers, but that Dyvers refused to continue it from their border with Greyhawk to their own city as they feared it would be used by Greyhawk's army to more easily invade Dyvers.

    In later years, however, Dyvers' realized that most of the farmers/ranchers in between the two city states, and even some of those within Dyvers own realm, were choosing to take their produce/livestock to Greyhawk instead precisely because of the convenience the permanent road offered to travel. Thus, by the end of the Living Greyhawk campaign, Dyvers had completed the road through her territory making a very nice raised, cobblestone highway straight through from Dyvers to Greyhawk and vice versa.

    One must assume that a more meandering, dirt road existed between the two for centuries as Greyhawk could not have already been such a center of trade in the Flanaess without much of it coming from/through Dyvers to get to Greyhawk.

    SirXaris

    Edit: Spelling. SX


    Last edited by SirXaris on Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:14 pm  

    There have been different conceptions of how the dirawaen work. Some have speculated that there is a magical effect that actually makes travel much faster on those roads. I just presume that they're like Roman roads but magically constructed and reinforced so they've held together alot better. I assume that Keoland maintains some kind of road-building program also, though not magical.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:05 pm  

    I think one of the fascinating things about the Flanaess is how they are tied together, not by roads but by water. Their are three major river basins (The Sheldomar, the Nyr Dyv and Flamni). And the distance between navigable waterways is not great between the basins. Water travel, particulalry along rivers is implied to be important, as the original boxed set discussed how far most rivers were navigable. Looking at a map, it is possible to leave Rel Astra and sail/row to Dorakaa!

    I would think that water travel would be much preferred as it is a more efficient way to haul bulk cargo (hauling a wagon of grain 20 miles cost as much as the grain in Roman times, that is why they sent it by ship). Further, your most important cities are almost all along rivers: Greyhawk, Dyvers, Rauxes, etc. This mirrors medieval times when roads were usually rutted and dangerous. Is it any wonder that London, Paris, and Budapest are where they are? In order to feed a burgeoning population, it is necessary to bring food in (as discussed in the previous thread). With water transport available, you can expand the radius of land that feeds the city, enabling settlements the size of Greyhawk and Dyvers to flourish (most other cities are significantly smaller, even national capitols). Those are my rambling thoughts.

    Oh, and smillan, I love the Richard IV avatar! Truly a mighty king... Fresh Horses!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:16 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    There have been different conceptions of how the dirawaen work. Some have speculated that there is a magical effect that actually makes travel much faster on those roads. I just presume that they're like Roman roads but magically constructed and reinforced so they've held together alot better.


    The dirawaen appear to be shielded against inclement weather.

    From Ivid the Undying:
    "the dirawaen roads are still in excellent repair and have a multiplier of 0.4 for movement cost (this does not change with the weather, either)."
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:02 am  

    If the primary reason travel slows in bad weather is that the roads turn to mud, the fact that the dirawaen roads are stone may be enough to explain why it's possible to travel at full speed regardless of the prevailing conditions without needing a magical rain-shield to explain anything.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:38 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    Oh, and smillan, I love the Richard IV avatar! Truly a mighty king... Fresh Horses!


    Thanks! It'll do until I can come up with a good Harry Flashman avatar.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm  

    I suppose I'll be slapped in irons by some for bringing this up, but if your campaign makes use of Spelljamming ships, trading espionage done through popping up, out, and over trade blockades and then down behind enemy lines could make for great fun and new ways to menace players as well. Smile
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:37 pm  

    If it weren't for the whole Suel as enemy of the Bakluni, this would be a great background for a campaign based on trade routes along the Volga: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Varangian
    Imagine a Suel Guard amongst the Bakluni. Can anyone see a good justification for it?
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:26 pm  

    CBorg wrote:
    If it weren't for the whole Suel as enemy of the Bakluni, this would be a great background for a campaign based on trade routes along the Volga: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Varangian


    There's a book called The Black Rood that details very specifically a trek taken by Vikings across Europe via the Volga and other rivers until they come to Byzantium via the Black Sea. It is a very good read and offers much inspiration for such an adventure in Greyhawk. The author is Stephen R. Lawhead.

    SirXaris
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:13 am  

    Roads are a very important part of running an empire. One of Rome's big happy-shenanigans was having stone roads with ditches for water and **** to run off into. I remember reading somewhere that defending the roads, or even destroying them to prevent their use by an enemy, was of significant importance to those wily toga-clad vomiters.

    As an aside, I would be keen to use anyone's work toward developing a "highway" travel system. Encounters, tolls, bridges, etc.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:34 pm  

    CBorg,

    The Suel "Varangians" could always have been political exiles or the like from the Suel Empire; or perhaps members of the houses that were driven to the west I remember reading about for being "impure".

    Sir Xaris raises a great point with the Black Rood. Greyhawk's waterways always remind me of the river system of Central and Eastern Europe... the Danube, Volga, and Dnieper basins that carried so much traffic on them. The Sheldomar, Nyr Dyv, and Flammi basins play the same role in Greyhawk to me.

    As far as roads themselves, those olive-oil swillers sure did make nice ones, though they were totally neglected by their descendants. However, late Roman history demonstrated that it was the ability to bring grain across the Mediterranean that was important to the Empire's survival... even the best roads were inefficient for bulk transport over more than 20 miles or so before internal combustion engines.

    The denial of transportation assets to an enemy is of course an important factor in warfare. A really good example is the Russians keeping a different guage on all of their railroads before World War I, so the Germans could not invade them easily. Of course, when they invaded Prussia, they found it rather difficult to move anything further than the border. Tannenberg was the result (1914 version).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:45 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    ... even the best roads were inefficient for bulk transport over more than 20 miles or so before internal combustion engines...


    Well, even today, sea transport is less costly per to/mile than trucks.

    CBorg wrote:
    If it weren't for the whole Suel as enemy of the Bakluni, this would be a great background for a campaign based on trade routes along the Volga: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Varangian
    Imagine a Suel Guard amongst the Bakluni. Can anyone see a good justification for it?


    -If you men in the post-ID/RoCF era, the obvious analog would be Snow and Ice Barbarians. There are also some Suel barbarians at a place called Tusking Strand in Blackmoor.

    Sort of hard for them to get to the west, but they're adventurous, and they wouldn't have much trouble serving Baklunis.
    Adept Greytalker

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    From: Verbobonc

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    Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:22 pm  

    jamedglick,

    actually, I should have been more precise in my wording. The book was discussing the method of moving food around the Roman Empire, and calculated that even with a roman road, the economic cost of moving an ox-cart of wheat 20 miles was equal to the value of the cargo. Thus only ships were a feasible means of feeding such an extensive empire by shipping food from Egypt and Africa to Rome.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:01 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    ...actually, I should have been more precise in my wording. The book was discussing the method of moving food around the Roman Empire, and calculated that even with a roman road, the economic cost of moving an ox-cart of wheat 20 miles was equal to the value of the cargo. Thus only ships were a feasible means of feeding such an extensive empire by shipping food from Egypt and Africa to Rome.


    -I agree. I was just adding that that's still true, to some degree.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:51 pm  

    I did a little background reading on Amazon regarding Lawhead's works. How much does he focus on religious matter? In Greyhawk religion is an afterthought. Crusades could be a driving force I'm not sure how to deal with in a campaign. I've never been particularly studious about religion.
    Still, it would be interesting to see how anyone transposed Crusades to... Pholtus vs Hextor, for example. Or something like that where we're talking about characters as proxies, or even avatars.
    GreySage

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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:47 pm  

    The Black Rood by Lawhead is very religiously centered. The background, though, is so incredibly well developed that if you are looking specifically for a good idea of what it was like to travel by land, sea, or river during that period in history, you would gain such great insight from reading this book that I though it worth mentioning in this thread.

    Now that you mention it, I realize that most of the conflicts in Greyhawk's history have had arcane (if I may be excused for using that term Razz ) or military despots at their core rather than being religious conflicts. Of course, you could call the Greyhawk Wars a religious conflict if you consider that Iuz was the main instigator. Still, I think you've mentioned a great campaign idea: Hextorians (or another evil cult) rising to prominence and conquering much of the Flanaess in their god's name.

    Come to think of it, though, most minor conflicts involving demon- or devil-worshipping cults would actually be correctly labled as religious conflicts as their purpose is exactly that implied above: to subject all the Flanaess to the rule of their fiendish deity.

    SirXaris
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