Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - You say Geoff, I say Hungary
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    You say Geoff, I say Hungary
    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:23 am  
    You say Geoff, I say Hungary

    I imagine Geoff being a sleepy, rustic little kingdom before the invasion of the giants. Granted, the Grand Duchy of Geoff is about as big as the state of Tennessee and state of Kentucky put together, but it has always seemed to be in a provincial area on the continent. I see the people being similar to the people of the Balkan states of Europe, both in mannerisms and dress and its history being a bloody wellspring of misery under the hand of Vecna. Anywho, does any one know of what appropriate dress and customs should be used for this area? I'm a wee bit concerned with the status of elves in the Grand Duchy (why would elves be given nobility status? Why would the elves even care what the silly blunt ears think of them? Are the titles honorific?) Personally I like the elves kind of voluntarily shut up in the forests away from the short lived humans.

    There's a lot of topics in this, sorry. Thoughts? Embarassed
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:13 pm  

    The LGG tells us that the Suel and Oeridians who arrived in the area did their best to remain peaceful with the Flan and other humanoids that live there. The same source tells us that the Sylvan Elves and the Gnomes of the Stark Hills, assisted the humans in building Gorna, the capital. (p.48)

    Perhaps this cooperation existed because of the "recent" memories of Vecna's Occluded Empire:

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Occluded_Empire_of_Vecna

    Perhaps this "alliance" has worked so well that it continues down to this day.
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 17, 2004
    Posts: 52
    From: Wales

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:18 pm  

    Hungary sounds fairly close to the mark for me. My take on the Flan are a Celtic / Slav style of culture in its purest form, the Oeridians seem more Mediterranean and Suloise more Germanic, in a Viking style. Of course all of these are relative in a fantasy setting, but I have the western part of the Flanness styled in an eastern-European vein, except Keoland which I base on Medieval Spain. In my game, the Flan / Suloise / Oeridian mix feels right for the Hungarian culture. However, it is undoubtedly much more isolated than Hungary in real terms, which in my campaign makes the people there more detached than nearby neighbours culturally. Architechture ranges from squat stone , square buildings near the Barrier Peaks, to carved wooden houses in the more populous areas by the Hornwood / Oytwood, becoming more primitive in a partially buried wood and earth structure in the more remote areas. The isolation again makes for a more integrated people with the demi-human population, especially olven folk, who are revered for their high civilization, whilst in turn they are admired for their more harmonious nature than most human folk.

    Anyway that's my two pennies on Geoff.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:45 pm  

    Geoff is commonly thought of as Wales. The Living Greyhawk triad made this comparison pretty explicit.

    In this analogy, Geoff is the Wales to Keoland's England. If you decided Keoland was Spain instead, Geoff might be more like Basque Country.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:04 pm  

    I'm with you on the elf thing, buddy!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 30, 2007
    Posts: 71
    From: Nevond-Nevnend, Duchy of Tenh

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:35 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Geoff is commonly thought of as Wales. The Living Greyhawk triad made this comparison pretty explicit.

    In this analogy, Geoff is the Wales to Keoland's England. If you decided Keoland was Spain instead, Geoff might be more like Basque Country.


    Rasgon is right on, Welsh, with the country being effectively run by Old Faith Druids, which is another reason why the Elves and other demi-humans are accepted and on a more equal status with each other and humans. The Brenin of Geoff is generally 'picked, or approved' by the Druids, along with the other nobility of Geoff, though there was a 'civil war' for power to be Brenin at one point with several families vying for control. [/i]
    _________________
    Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:22 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Geoff is commonly thought of as Wales. The Living Greyhawk triad made this comparison pretty explicit.

    In this analogy, Geoff is the Wales to Keoland's England. If you decided Keoland was Spain instead, Geoff might be more like Basque Country.


    Not sure I trust those folks. Silly comparison, I totally veto it. Razz I'm staying with Hungary and Romania.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:03 pm  

    Leave it to a Dwarf named Vlad (from Nyrond no less) to concern himself with Geoff!

    Tsk!

    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/


    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:11 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Leave to a Dwarf named Vlad (from Nyrond no less) to concern himself with Geoff!

    Tsk!


    Hrmm, yes...but you have to go where there is money to be made and the people are fashionable dressed. Unlike the manling peasants that currently inhabit Nyrond. Wink Speaking of fashionable dress, anyone have any thoughts on what that neck of the woods would be like? As some have pointed out (tips hat at you folks), there is strong elvish presence. I wonder if that would translate into a mixed fashion sense as I would suspect in Veluna, or do you think the humans stick to their own in Geoff?

    One of the issues I have in my old age is everyone wants to be one happy family. My thoughts are that blending everything waters down the distinctiveness of the races. At the core of it, the elder races are a different culture and are different races for a reason. I like having my elven nobility have a Chinese dress or Japanese Samurai armor dress for battle, but not based on Chinese or medieval Japanese culture. Same goes with all the other races. Thus, what a traveler might see in human fashion in Gorna or Hornwood might be different than what they would see in the elven realms.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 379
    From: Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:30 pm  

    Geoff (and Sterich) always struck my as isolated backwaters, always in the shadow of Keoland. Further, they were peopled mostly by Flan people. This to me screamed Wales/Ireland/Scotland as all three of them were considered backwaters of a backwater (England) during the middles ages. Mix in the Old Faith, and the siiarities are pretty strong. If I had to guess a country to be Hungary, I would lean more towards maybe part of Keoland. Keoland is easily mapped to England, or Spain, but historically, early Hapsburg Austria is another option; a first among equals in the Sheldomar Valley if you will.

    As far as the mention of the Balkans, I usually associate Bissel with Serbia or Transylvania, playing the role of the gateway to Europe. Ket of of course is the Ottomans in the analogy, while the Grand March always struck me as a combination of the Tuetonic Knight and Frederick the Great's Prussia (most states have an army, Prussia is an army with a state).

    Of course, I have noted my beleive that Keoland is far closer to Gondor than any real world country, but that is just my two cents.

    Oh, and the Oeridians are totally the Germanic barbarians. I simply do not see them being Mediterranean... the Suel fit that role more neatly in my mind (based on attitudes, not appearance).
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:52 pm  

    I agree with the Oeridians being more Germanic, at least culturally. There's a tendency for people to compare the old Great Kingdom with the Roman Empire, which could be where the Mediterranean association comes in (that, & the olive skin).

    A better fit, IMO, would be the Frankish Empire, which left a comparable lasting impact on medieval Europe as the GK did on the Flanaess.

    The Sueloise/Scandinavian comparison works only in the region of the Barbarian states. Beyond that, it's hard to find a RW equivalent. Lots of people like to compare them to Melniboneans, however. The anomaly of the Barbarian Suel, IMO, can be best explained by the influence of Vatun, who was not worshiped in the Suel Empire, and may not even have a Suel origin, according to the LGG, p. 185 (though the same source, as well as the SB, definitely identify his brother, Dalt, as Suel).
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 17, 2004
    Posts: 52
    From: Wales

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:40 pm  

    Apart from the Flan and Bakluni the '81 Foli and later boxed set doesnt really have a real world equivalent for the Suloise or Oeridian in my opinion, and I agree that only the barbarians to the north have the typical scandinavian feel. As for the Oeridians I still get a mediterranean feel for the culture, and admittedly the Roman / Great Kingdom analogy does influence that, but equally I see the Great kingdom as more akin to the Holy Roman Empire, with a dash of Byzantium, i.e. a successor state to the great empire that had gone before. this in itself would not be inconsistent in my opinion, although my image of early Aerdy is not that of the classical Roman empire in political form or culture.

    It is notable that Gaxmoor, which I believe was imagined by Luke (?) Gygax was designed in classical imperial style, and supposedly an Aerdy outpost, so who knows what Gary Gygax's take was.

    As for Geoff, I know that it has been associated with a Welsh backdrop (and with the '83 set having Grand Duke Owen I this is further reinforced), and I can see that being entirely appropriate. Yet Keoland.... I just don't get the England feel or references. Apart from anything else its position at around the 30-35 degree latitude would surely make it far warmer than the English climate, with totally different flora fauna and therefore agriculture. After all, it's southern point is only a couple of hundred miles from the Amedio jungle. As for the '83 entry - Kimbertos Skotti is far from the style of Northern nobility names in Europe, resembling more a Greek influence. (As for the climate of the adjacent Yeomanry, which clearly IMO has a more 'English' influence, I can only postulate that the whole climate is influenced by the surrounding mountains, making it on the whole somewhat cooler). And then we have nearby Gran March, with 'Petros' (Greek for Peter), the Commandant, again a very clear nudge to a Mediterranean influence.

    All in all, this is going to be highly relative, after all it is a fantasy world which was never intended to be a replication, and with Gary's sad passing his original thoughts will never be clear on all things. But that said I do think he often left clues to his thinking in both titles of nobility, and some cultural references (anyone reading the Gord novels is left in no doubt as to his Baklunish references of a wider Asian culture spanning steppe nomads to Arabic Caliphates).

    Anyway I am always interested in people's take on Greyhawk cultures, and in any event I would never pretend that there is a 'correct' or 'exclusive' answer to any debate.

    Cheers
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:09 am  

    Yeoman wrote:
    I see the Great kingdom as more akin to the Holy Roman Empire, with a dash of Byzantium . . . my image of early Aerdy is not that of the classical Roman empire in political form or culture.


    I agree. The Holy Roman Empire is a much better fit for The Great Kingdom. I never did, or could, associate it with ancient Rome. I think the Suloise Imperium as a better fit for Rome.

    Yeoman wrote:
    Yet Keoland.... I just don't get the England feel or references.


    I can't say I've given much thought to Keoland, but I remember reading elsewhere in the Forums that Keoland was reminiscent of France, rather than England. Can't remember who said it, or where I read that. Sorry.

    Yeoman wrote:
    As for the climate of the adjacent Yeomanry, which clearly IMO has a more 'English' influence.


    Given that our term "Yeoman" comes directly from England, can anyone doubt that the Yeomanry is Oerth's version of that island nation? For me, the Yeomanry has always had the English feel and flavor.
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:19 am  

    Yeoman wrote:
    . . . Kimbertos Skotti is far from the style of Northern nobility names in Europe, resembling more a Greek influence.


    I'll give you Kimbertos. However, "Skotti" could be derived from "Scoti," the Irish pirates who eventually settled Scotland.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:21 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Given that our term "Yeoman" comes directly from England, can anyone doubt that the Yeomanry is Oerth's version of that island nation? For me, the Yeomanry has always had the English feel and flavor.


    Except for its whole system of government is more American than British.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:25 am  

    Robbastard wrote:
    Except for its whole system of government is more American than British.


    I completely agree . . . I just didn't want to be the one to say it! Wink Evil Grin Laughing
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1358
    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:53 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Robbastard wrote:
    Except for its whole system of government is more American than British.


    I completely agree . . . I just didn't want to be the one to say it! Wink Evil Grin Laughing


    jamesdglick wrote:
    This thread is hitting the same turf as the Cultures in Greyhawk thread. I agreed with Rasgon, that it few things fit exactly, and then...


    jamesdglick wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Nothing fits exactly...


    -Agreed.

    If the geography fits, the ethnicity or language looks funny, or if the culture and political system fits, then the climate is off, etc. Even if that fits, its neighbors won't fit in with the meme. I do not normally spend too much time trying to get precise equivalents, especially not in the way Avalon has, since I think it requires too many compromises...



    ...went on for several pages to try to do that anyway. Confused

    As for this thread, I'd always thought Wales, and that's where Living Greyhawk went (in a rather overly literal way, I thought...).

    And Mystic Scholar has a new avatar. Not creepy like the last one, but I still prefer the "sage in repose" look.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:01 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Mystic Scholar has a new avatar. Not creepy like the last one, but I still prefer the "sage in repose" look.


    I said I was trying a few out. Razz

    But I think that I like this one the best and am going to keep it. Though I can appreciate that many of you are used to the "old" avatar.

    Sorry if it disappoints some here.
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 17, 2004
    Posts: 52
    From: Wales

    Send private message
    Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:18 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    Yeoman wrote:
    . . . Kimbertos Skotti is far from the style of Northern nobility names in Europe, resembling more a Greek influence.


    I'll give you Kimbertos. However, "Skotti" could be derived from "Scoti," the Irish pirates who eventually settled Scotland.


    You make a good point with regard to the name..... interesting. Equally the political system of the Yeomanry I found to be a bit of a quandary. It sure doesn't fit the medieval parliament of England. I was thinking of the Saxon Wittan, but that was hardly the answer either. I couldn't really find a medieval 'fit'. Likewise, had the analogy been purely English then the troop type would certainly have been armed with longbow. But spearmen and crossbow, heavy pole-arm contingents and slingers do not really suggest an intended culture based on that. It is quite likely that there was no template anticipated.
    Interestingly, the '83 set mentions that demi-humans were also 'electors of the land' which does have a passing reference to the Holy Roman Empire, albeit not in the democratic form outlined. Whether the 'stem-duchies' of the old Eastern Frankish Kingdom was ever considered I doubt, so it may well be that the Yeomanry was seen as a medieval-themed American land...
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:38 am  

    When Vecna ruled the lands, did Vecna have a name for Hunga...Geoff? I want to delve into some ancient Greyhawk history concerning the Duchy and Vecna. Any guidance would be appreciated. :-)
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:40 am  

    He called it the Land of Sheep-Shagging, Coal-Mining, Rugby-Playing, Bet-Reneging Fleshbags Who My Ghoul Minions Find Delicious.

    But no, there's no canon on that sort of thing. It's not at all clear that Vecna ever had anything to do with Geoff. His base of operations was in the Gran March, and apparently he had little political power beyond his immediate reach.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:45 am  

    Sort of -- Ruler in Name Only.

    Until he decided to personally "show up," of course. Wink
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:51 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    He called it the Land of Sheep-Shagging, Coal-Mining, Rugby-Playing, Bet-Reneging Fleshbags Who My Ghoul Minions Find Delicious.

    But no, there's no canon on that sort of thing. It's not at all clear that Vecna ever had anything to do with Geoff. His base of operations was in the Gran March, and apparently he had little political power beyond his immediate reach.



    ....wow! I bet his ancient court scribes hated addressing documents for that area. Smile
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:05 am  

    History of Geoff (the Geoff Project)
    The Pre-Cataclysm Era in the Sheldomar (by Samwise)
    Vecna's Realm (by Erik Mona)
    Cavitian: the Tongue of Vecna (by David Ross)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:34 am  
    Re: You say Geoff, I say Hungary

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    I imagine Geoff being a sleepy, rustic little kingdom before the invasion of the giants. Granted, the Grand Duchy of Geoff is about as big as the state of Tennessee and state of Kentucky put together, but it has always seemed to be in a provincial area on the continent. I see the people being similar to the people of the Balkan states of Europe, both in mannerisms and dress and its history being a bloody wellspring of misery under the hand of Vecna. Anywho, does any one know of what appropriate dress and customs should be used for this area? I'm a wee bit concerned with the status of elves in the Grand Duchy (why would elves be given nobility status? Why would the elves even care what the silly blunt ears think of them? Are the titles honorific?) Personally I like the elves kind of voluntarily shut up in the forests away from the short lived humans.

    There's a lot of topics in this, sorry. Thoughts? Embarassed


    I got the feeling that Geoff was pretty laid back too when I read the background material for Living Greyhawk Geoff. Before the giant wars there seemed to be few conflicts in the backcountry that Geoff seems to be. On the other hand when you look at how powerful some of the NPCs are… Owen, Cadofthy Parn, Serra Blackblade, Darlon Lea, Gwenllian the eglantine, and virtually every member of the druids and megtaorgs.

    These high level NPCs also show that there has been some major adventuring done in the not to distant past.

    Geoff is clearly based on the Welsh people of England. Having personally known many of the Geoff Triad they openly admitted as much. Given the rural and rustic nature of the people I always describe them wearing very plain basic clothing. Most of the traditional Geoff flan lived in crofts or lofts which are small multifamily forts consisting of a few houses or buildings and a wooden wall protecting it from wild animal, thieves, etc. In the center of these enclosures is always a tree of some kind that presents the family, or community. Needless to say these mini-forts did not do well against the giant armies.

    Before the invasion clearly there was conflict in Geoff. The fact that even small single family homes in the country were protected by basic fortifications shows that the people had to defend against small but common threats. While most characters lived in peace a few must have had pretty significant adventures to reach the power level of some of the NPCs in Geoff.

    Although LG never continued or really even concluded the story I would imagine Geoff is a very different place after CY 598.
    WoTC published a lot of background info on Geoff. Last time I checked most of it was still up on the old LG website. You may want to try downloading it. It gave more info than most players would want to know about virtually every subject.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:42 am  

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    When Vecna ruled the lands, did Vecna have a name for Hunga...Geoff? I want to delve into some ancient Greyhawk history concerning the Duchy and Vecna. Any guidance would be appreciated. :-)

    rasgon wrote:
    He called it the Land of Sheep-Shagging, Coal-Mining, Rugby-Playing, Bet-Reneging Fleshbags Who My Ghoul Minions Find Delicious.

    But no, there's no canon on that sort of thing. It's not at all clear that Vecna ever had anything to do with Geoff. His base of operations was in the Gran March, and apparently he had little political power beyond his immediate reach.


    Rip is correct (on the last part, at least). I personally think that one reason why the Old Faith is so strong in Geoff may be because it was where many important OF druids fled after Vecna's betrayal & established a refuge. Said Vecna's betrayal is mentioned on the WotC website:

    Vecna and the Ur-Flan: The Ur-Flan were a mysterious group among the Flannae about whom little is known for sure. It is known that several of their number, Vecna and Keraptis among them, made themselves overlords of pre-cataclysm empires and these Ur-Flan empires were quite evil. The druids did not concern themselves with the Ur-Flan as long as they were not a threat to the Balance or the Eternal Cycle. This passive acceptance allowed Vecna and others like him to flourish, and some held whole tribes in bondage to their evil. When Vecna betrayed the druids and twisted their power over nature into a source of undeath, they were completely unprepared. Some druids fled, many died, and the few who remained served the Whispered One. A number of scholars believe that the druids who served Vecna rescued many of the Ur-Flan secrets and the Old Faith preserves that knowledge to this day.

    While it's unsure what is meant by Vecna twisting the druids' "power over nature into a source of undeath," it's likely the writer was inspired by Samwise's idea:

    Following this, a large group of Flan from the Velverdyva valley migrated into the Sheldomar. They were pastoralists, leading large herds of sheep, and worshipping Rao. The Old Faith directed their followers, by now settled agriculturalists, to oppose them. This led to years of low-scale warfare that finally ended when the leaders of the Old Faith turned to a warlord with ties to the Ur-Flan by the name of Vecna. They anointed him High King of the Sheldomar, and directed their people to follow him in defeating the newcomers.

    Following his victory Vecna began to reorganize the small states of the Sheldomar, turning them into a coordinated nation to support him in his researches. It was at this time that the Great Druid of the Old Faith informed him that he was to be sacrificed in a ritual to restore the land. Feigning acceptance, Vecna allowed the ritual to proceed, but at the culminating moment, he revealed his powers, twisting the ritual, and using the power to turn himself into a lich-like creature. Slaughtering the leaders of the Old Faith, he proceeded to establish his rule over those Flan closest to him.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:02 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    i]

    While it's unsure what is meant by Vecna twisting the druids' "power over nature into a source of undeath," it's likely the writer was inspired by Samwise's idea:

    [.[/i]



    I know how Vecna did it. It was expalined in an LG Geoff Mod. It was in GEO05-02 Love as Bright as Blood. It is part two of the Songs of Three Summonings series. The best one out of the three in my opinion.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:49 pm  

    shield2099 wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    i]

    While it's unsure what is meant by Vecna twisting the druids' "power over nature into a source of undeath," it's likely the writer was inspired by Samwise's idea:

    [.[/i]



    I know how Vecna did it. It was expalined in an LG Geoff Mod. It was in GEO05-02 Love as Bright as Blood. It is part two of the Songs of Three Summonings series. The best one out of the three in my opinion.


    Don't be a tease, shield2099. Give us a link! Exclamation

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:27 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    shield2099 wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    i]

    While it's unsure what is meant by Vecna twisting the druids' "power over nature into a source of undeath," it's likely the writer was inspired by Samwise's idea:

    [.[/i]



    I know how Vecna did it. It was expalined in an LG Geoff Mod. It was in GEO05-02 Love as Bright as Blood. It is part two of the Songs of Three Summonings series. The best one out of the three in my opinion.


    Don't be a tease, shield2099. Give us a link! Exclamation

    SirXaris



    Sorry, those adventures are not posted anywhere online. WoTC took all LG adventures down when they ended LG. I have them. If you are interested in them drop me an email or I can give you the summary. I don't know how you guys feel about spoilers, but that was a shocking moment in the adventures and I don't want to ruin it for anyone who wants to play through them.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:20 am  

    It's probably safe by now to assume everyone has played them that's going to. Just warn of spoilers at the beginning of the post, then spill the beans.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:43 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Just warn of spoilers at the beginning of the post, then spill the beans.



    And that is official Canonfire! policy.

    So, now . . . feel free to share the information with everyone. Wink
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:07 pm  

    Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!!


    If you intend to play the song of three summonings please do not read any further or you will miss out a great twist and awesome surprise.


    For those of you who want to know and don’t want to play or read the mods:

    When Vecna was still human he apparently became the Brenin of Geoff, or what was Geoff eons ago. This title was Vecna ap Cajk. Like all the rulers of Geoff they are eventually to be sacrificed to Father Acorn to start the circle of life over again. Unfortunately Vecna used the ritual to become a litch and taint the great acorn. Venca uses the power of the corrupted acorn to summon powerful undead to kill the druid leaders in charge of the ceremony. He summons more and more powerful undead until he reaches CR 18 undead monsters to kill CR 9 Druids. Vecna is stated in the adventure as a Wizard 17th level, now with the litch template. Only one young druid survives (flees) and warns the people of the world of Vecna’s betrayal. In addition to empowering himself and becoming a litch, Father Acorn, aka the Greenman, aka god of druids is not reborn so until a new Brenin, a new great acorn, and a new sacrifice made, the land itself was dying. Truly the start of the Arch Litch nightmare.


    Hope you enjoyed.

    Adam
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:27 pm  

    shield2099 wrote:
    Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!!


    If you intend to play the song of three summonings please do not read any further or you will miss out a great twist and awesome surprise.


    For those of you who want to know and don’t want to play or read the mods:

    When Vecna was still human he apparently became the Brenin of Geoff, or what was Geoff eons ago. This title was Vecna ap Cajk. Like all the rulers of Geoff they are eventually to be sacrificed to Father Acorn to start the circle of life over again. Unfortunately Vecna used the ritual to become a litch and taint the great acorn. Venca uses the power of the corrupted acorn to summon powerful undead to kill the druid leaders in charge of the ceremony. He summons more and more powerful undead until he reaches CR 18 undead monsters to kill CR 9 Druids. Vecna is stated in the adventure as a Wizard 17th level, now with the litch template. Only one young druid survives (flees) and warns the people of the world of Vecna’s betrayal. In addition to empowering himself and becoming a litch, Father Acorn, aka the Greenman, aka god of druids is not reborn so until a new Brenin, a new great acorn, and a new sacrifice made, the land itself was dying. Truly the start of the Arch Litch nightmare.

    Hope you enjoyed.

    Adam


    Just read it, and it's obviously very inspired by Sam's idea. To clarify a couple things:

    The adventure states that Vecna was brenin (Welsh for "king") of a Flan tribe in the northern Sheldomar, not Geoff.

    And I believe "Vecna ap Cajk" is not a title of rulership, but simply means "Vecna, son of Cajk." This, of course, gives us an apocryphal name for Vecna's father (his mother, of course, is named Mazell, according to VHotR).

    Also mentioned are Vecna's constant travels throughout the Flanaess, and that he "studied with the elves for a bit," from whom he learned "great magic."

    Vecna's betrayal & the fleeing druid also fits very well with my idea that Geoff was where the remaining Old Faith opposition fled to regroup. Though they were not strong enough to oppose Vecna, Geoff provided a safe refuge against the lich, enabling them to preserve their way of life.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:50 pm  

    shield2099 wrote:
    For those of you who want to know and don’t want to play or read the mods:


    Shield, you handled that correctly. And thanks for sharing that, I enjoyed it. Wink

    Quote:
    To clarify a couple things:


    Thanks for that clarification, Robbastard. Makes for some interesting ideas! Evil Grin
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:07 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    shield2099 wrote:
    Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!! Spoiler Alert!!!!!!!!


    If you intend to play the song of three summonings please do not read any further or you will miss out a great twist and awesome surprise.


    For those of you who want to know and don’t want to play or read the mods:

    When Vecna was still human he apparently became the Brenin of Geoff, or what was Geoff eons ago. This title was Vecna ap Cajk. Like all the rulers of Geoff they are eventually to be sacrificed to Father Acorn to start the circle of life over again. Unfortunately Vecna used the ritual to become a litch and taint the great acorn. Venca uses the power of the corrupted acorn to summon powerful undead to kill the druid leaders in charge of the ceremony. He summons more and more powerful undead until he reaches CR 18 undead monsters to kill CR 9 Druids. Vecna is stated in the adventure as a Wizard 17th level, now with the litch template. Only one young druid survives (flees) and warns the people of the world of Vecna’s betrayal. In addition to empowering himself and becoming a litch, Father Acorn, aka the Greenman, aka god of druids is not reborn so until a new Brenin, a new great acorn, and a new sacrifice made, the land itself was dying. Truly the start of the Arch Litch nightmare.

    Hope you enjoyed.

    Adam


    Just read it, and it's obviously very inspired by Sam's idea. To clarify a couple things:

    The adventure states that Vecna was brenin (Welsh for "king") of a Flan tribe in the northern Sheldomar, not Geoff.

    And I believe "Vecna ap Cajk" is not a title of rulership, but simply means "Vecna, son of Cajk." This, of course, gives us an apocryphal name for Vecna's father (his mother, of course, is named Mazell, according to VHotR).

    Also mentioned are Vecna's constant travels throughout the Flanaess, and that he "studied with the elves for a bit," from whom he learned "great magic."

    Vecna's betrayal & the fleeing druid also fits very well with my idea that Geoff was where the remaining Old Faith opposition fled to regroup. Though they were not strong enough to oppose Vecna, Geoff provided a safe refuge against the lich, enabling them to preserve their way of life.


    Perhaps “title” was not the proper word to use. Vecna’s proper name would have been better. I figured that “ap Cajk” referred to Vecna’s family. I thought Cajk might have been his family’s name (sir name) or last name, but it being his father’s name makes more sense. Owen is referred to as “Owen ap Lluth.” Lluth refers to Owen’s father Grand Duke Lluth. I was not sure if the tribe it referred to was “Geoff” or not. Likely there was no Geoff was we know it back then.

    By Northern Sheldomar I assumed Valley of the Mage in Geoff, but I guess it could also mean Bissel.

    Makes me kind of glad not to be the Brenin. Besides the whole self sacrifice thing, “Adam ap Bobby” just sounds kinda dumb.

    Adam
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:39 pm  

    You gotta sacrifice yourself if you're the king? Yikes! Guess Gorna isn't a shining jewel of a capital like I imagined. I can imagine Geoff being a very stable environment with the nobility doing everything they can to keep things stable (especially for themselves). Hmmm, you want to be the ruler my son? No, no, that path is for the Jones' You let them be the ruling family while you live for yours and enjoy a very long tradition of wealth and breathing.

    Guess the Ur-Flan will be rearing their ugly heads though now that I have a better understanding of Geoff.

    Oh, real quick, what was Geoff called before it was Geoff?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:34 pm  

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    You gotta sacrifice yourself if you're the king? Yikes! Guess Gorna isn't a shining jewel of a capital like I imagined. I can imagine Geoff being a very stable environment with the nobility doing everything they can to keep things stable (especially for themselves). Hmmm, you want to be the ruler my son? No, no, that path is for the Jones' You let them be the ruling family while you live for yours and enjoy a very long tradition of wealth and breathing.

    Guess the Ur-Flan will be rearing their ugly heads though now that I have a better understanding of Geoff.

    Oh, real quick, what was Geoff called before it was Geoff?


    I don’t really know. Geoff is kind of a slang term in a way. The proper name as it is called by the native Flan is “Gyruff”. The first mention of a name I can find is Gyruff about -1000 C (flan year tracking) which is somewhere around -2150 CY. However I think Gyruff then, as it is now, is more of a name of the land itself than a nation or political body.

    If you travel to Geoff in the current time, Gyruff and Geoff can be used interchangeably. The more modern people will use Grand Duchy of Geoff, while the traditional Flan people will refer to it as Gyruff.

    As of CY 585 Gorna was not a shining jewel of anything. Even after taking the city back in 595 and as of the end of LG in 598 I would image the city is still being rebuilt and repopulated. At the very least after 10 years of Giant occupation the major buildings would need to be fumigated to get the smell out.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:40 pm  

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Oh, real quick, what was Geoff called before it was Geoff?

    It was simply called "Jeff". Then it put on airs, and changed its name to "Geoff". Couldn't have just a "Duke" either. Only a "Grand" Duke would do. No ego to Geoff at all. Wink

    Don't get me started on Zagig and Zagyg. Laughing
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:22 am  

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Oh, real quick, what was Geoff called before it was Geoff?


    The Geoff Project (a fan-created site linked to earlier in this thread) had Geoff named after its first king, Geoff I, centuries before the Great Migrations (and thus contemporaneous with Vecna).

    This seems unlikely, since most of the time countries are named after prominent tribes that once ruled them: England after the Angles, France after the Franks, Saxony after the Saxons, Turkey after the Turks, Hungary after the Huns, etc.

    However, there are places that were named after legendary founders: Britain was supposedly named for Brutus, Rome after Romulus, Alexandria after Alexander, America after Amerigo Vespucci. So it's possible.

    But anyway, I'd assume there was a Flan people called the Geoffites or Gyruff or whatever that gave the region its name. Before they came into the area... who knows? It was a different country then, and probably so long ago there aren't any records. It may simply have been known as the Hornwood, or whatever the Old Flannish word for "Hornwood" is. Maybe the Hornwood Vale. It might have been a realm ruled by giants before the elves and Geoffite Flan entered the valley, so it might have once had a Giantish name. The elves of the Hornwood probably have their own name for it as well: according to the Geoff Project, the elven kingdom that encompassed what is now the Hornwood and Oytwood was known as Calendorien. Before the ancient wars against the ancestors of the drow, it was part of the realm of Alkarwenyarda.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:03 pm  

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    You gotta sacrifice yourself if you're the king? Yikes! Guess Gorna isn't a shining jewel of a capital like I imagined. I can imagine Geoff being a very stable environment with the nobility doing everything they can to keep things stable (especially for themselves). Hmmm, you want to be the ruler my son? No, no, that path is for the Jones' You let them be the ruling family while you live for yours and enjoy a very long tradition of wealth and breathing.

    Guess the Ur-Flan will be rearing their ugly heads though now that I have a better understanding of Geoff.

    Oh, real quick, what was Geoff called before it was Geoff?


    Reading through Love as Bright as Blood, it appears that renewing the land via blood sacrifice of the king doesn't happen very often. The module states that only two of Geoff's brenins have ever had to do so, and they were about 300 years apart.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 06, 2011
    Posts: 32
    From: Roanoke, VA

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:27 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    You gotta sacrifice yourself if you're the king? Yikes! Guess Gorna isn't a shining jewel of a capital like I imagined. I can imagine Geoff being a very stable environment with the nobility doing everything they can to keep things stable (especially for themselves). Hmmm, you want to be the ruler my son? No, no, that path is for the Jones' You let them be the ruling family while you live for yours and enjoy a very long tradition of wealth and breathing.

    Guess the Ur-Flan will be rearing their ugly heads though now that I have a better understanding of Geoff.

    Oh, real quick, what was Geoff called before it was Geoff?


    Reading through Love as Bright as Blood, it appears that renewing the land via blood sacrifice of the king doesn't happen very often. The module states that only two of Geoff's brenins have ever had to do so, and they were about 300 years apart.


    Yeah, that’s odd because the mod states that Lowerth the Farsighted was the first Brenin of Geoff, and that was only 300 years ago. So Geoff as we understand it now is a relatively young country. Also we learn that Vecna as the Brenin of the Hart. I’m sure the Hart tribe did not fare well after Vecna became a litch and built his empire.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:40 am  

    shield2099 wrote:
    Robbastard wrote:
    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    You gotta sacrifice yourself if you're the king?


    Reading through Love as Bright as Blood, it appears that renewing the land via blood sacrifice of the king doesn't happen very often. The module states that only two of Geoff's brenins have ever had to do so, and they were about 300 years apart.


    Yeah, that’s odd because the mod states that Lowerth the Farsighted was the first Brenin of Geoff, and that was only 300 years ago. So Geoff as we understand it now is a relatively young country. Also we learn that Vecna as the Brenin of the Hart. I’m sure the Hart tribe did not fare well after Vecna became a litch and built his empire.


    I don't think "Hart" is meant as a tribal name, but as a metaphorical title for the sacrifice, similar to the way in which Jesus is often called the "Lamb of God." Note that Owen is also called as such (p. 19).
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:13 am  

    shield2099 wrote:
    Yeah, that’s odd because the mod states that Lowerth the Farsighted was the first Brenin of Geoff, and that was only 300 years ago. So Geoff as we understand it now is a relatively young country.


    Not necessarily. It could only mean that the title of Brenin was established in Geoff a little over 300 years ago (Iowerth died in 281 CY, but is described as an "old man," so it's possible he ruled as brenin for many years before his death).

    GEO5-02 states that Iowerth united the Flan tribes of Geoff & became Brenin with druidic support. He then repelled incursions from the "Keogh tribes" (possibly used as a term for all Keoish people, rather than just the Oeridian tribes).

    Of course, the LGG states that "Geoff is among the oldest nations in the Flanaess" & that Gorna was founded over 900 years ago (before 591 CY). In 316 CY, Geoff joined Keoland as a grand duchy.

    It could be that prior to Iowerth, Geoff was a loose confederation of Flan tribes, united by the Old Faith. by the 3rd century CY, the druidic leadership, in the face of an ascendant Keoland, may have seen a need for unification under a strong temporal leader, paving the way for Geoff to remain whole, despite coming into the Keoish fold.

    That said, Iowerth's tale could just as easily take place in -281 CY, if the term "Keogh tribes" is to be taken literally. This, however, is problematic, given that the module states 281 CY occurred "more than 300 years ago" (p. 26) & states the current year as 594 CY (p. 3). This earlier scenario for Iowerth would fit in much better, IMO, as it has the first Geoffite brenin dying nearly 900 years ago, making it likely that he was in power when Gorna was built.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:26 pm  

    I don't see any obvious geological features that would logically divide old-timey Geoff into multiple states, unless there was a division between those who lived in the forest and those who lived on the plains. If they were building cities 900 years ago (this date for Gorna's founding is also in Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff), then I'm inclined to think they were more than a collection of itinerant tribes at the time. I'd also prefer the -281 CY date for Iowerth, then.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:13 pm  

    I like Rob's original idea above. I'm more in favor of Geoff having been a collection of petty kingdoms, like Ireland was; then being united under a high king a few decades prior to 281. This was prior to a period of expansion by Keoland, so the Flan of Geoff could have been responding to that perceived threat. Just because Gorna was founded 900 years ago, doesn't mean it was what we would consider a city in the "modern" sense. Gorna could have been something like the Hill of Tara.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.45 Seconds